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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:52 PM
Original message
Poll question: "Your car will blow up in 30 seconds." Do you ....
* get out of the car now, and get as far away from it as possible to avoid being barbecued, because several people just told you this and at least some of them are in a position to know what they are talking about;
* stay in the car because you REALLY like the song that's playing on the radio, in fact you are recording it on your MP3 player/FM recorder because you haven't heard it in a long long time and don't know when/if you will again (i.e. there is a cost to getting out of the car if the threat turns out to be false), and you know a of couple people who think the people who told you your car is going to blow up are full of shit, even though most people are saying it's true

?

(yes, this is an analogy. Extra credit to those who know EXACTLY what I am talking about without me having to explain.)
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Are there other people in the car, people that the last "driver" coaxed into "going for a ride"?
:shrug:
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. in this analogy, no
Edited on Thu Dec-03-09 01:03 PM by MH1
I was trying to keep it simple. :)
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. No extra credit for me. I assumed it was about Iraq... n/t
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. I guess it was the "get out NOW"
that got you, huh? ;)
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. yes!
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endless october Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. as long as getting out of the car doesn't involve a cap and trade scheme
that China is going to cheat on and that won't do much besides make carbon traders rich.

can i get out of the car via a massive public works program to build nuclear, solar, and wind like we built the interstate highway system in the 50s?

because that might actually do something.

if it has to be Kyoto or Copenhagen, though, i stay in the car.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. specific methods for getting out of the car are irrelevant at this point
presumably you could just open the door, jump out and run for your life.

As I said above, keeping the analogy simple at this point.

If the door is jammed and we have to consider cap and trade to make it work, well that is another discussion (but it had better happen fast!)
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endless october Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. no, the method is the most relevent part.
cap and trade is no more effective than banging on the window and visualizing yourself leaving the car.

if we pick a more effective method, we actually stand a chance of getting out of the car.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. You may want to look into acid rain and sulfur dioxide before knocking cap & trade. nt
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endless october Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. did you miss my initial post in this thread?
here :

"that China is going to cheat on and that won't do much besides make carbon traders rich.

can i get out of the car via a massive public works program to build nuclear, solar, and wind like we built the interstate highway system in the 50s?

because that might actually do something.

if it has to be Kyoto or Copenhagen, though, i stay in the car."

cap and trade won't work. building non-CO2 producing infrastructure will.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. you may want to look at the difference
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 03:18 PM by Hannah Bell
Reasons why Cap and Trade is a Bad Idea:

4. Cap and trade for sulfur dioxide emissions is not comparable to cap and trade for carbon dioxide. Proponents of cap and trade point to the sulfur dioxide program as an example of how easy and effective it would be to institute an economy-wide cap and trade program for CO2. But sulfur dioxide and carbon dioxide emissions are not comparable. When the sulfur dioxide program started, it targeted only 110 coal-fired power plants. Later, it was expanded to 445 power plants.<10> Greenhouse gas emissions are released from millions of sources, including electricity production, planes, trains, automobiles, ships, home furnaces, fertilizer production, farm animals, and millions of other sources, including humans. Regulating millions of different and individual sources of emissions is considerably different from regulating 445 plants.

Also, many low-cost sulfur dioxide control options existed when the program took effect.<11> This is not the case with carbon dioxide control technologies. There are no control technologies that are commercially available at commercially-competitive prices. One way to reduce sulfur dioxide emissions was to use “low-sulfur coal” but there is no “low-carbon dioxide coal.”<12>


1. The point of cap and trade is to increase the price of energy. Cap and trade is designed to increase the price of 85 percent of the energy we use in the United States. That is the point. For it to “work,” cap and trade needs to increase the price of oil, coal, and natural gas to force consumers to use more expensive forms of energy. President Obama’s OMB director, Peter Orszag, told Congress last year that “price increases would be essential to the success of a cap and trade program.”<1>

2. Cap and trade schemes for carbon dioxide have not worked to reduce emissions. Europe’s Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) began in 2005. The first phase, from 2005 to2007, did not reduce carbon dioxide emissions. Instead, overall emissions increased 1.9 percent over that period.<2> The reason is simple: European politicians know that cap and trade is economically harmful and do not want these policies to cost more jobs, especially during these difficult economic times. German Chancellor Angela Merkel recently stated that she would not allow EU climate regulations to go forward that would “take decisions that would endanger jobs or investments in Germany.”<3>
Cap and trade will harm the poor. According to the Congressional Budget Office, the costs of reducing carbon dioxide emissions would disproportionally harm the poor. A mere 15 percent decrease in carbon dioxide emissions would cost the lowest-income Americans 3.3 percent of their income, but only 1.7 percent of the income of higher income households.<4> President Obama wants to decrease greenhouse gas emissions by 83 percent, not a mere 15 percent. This will entail much greater economic sacrifice among those who have the least to spare.


3. Cap and trade harms energy security. Some proponents of cap and trade claim that cap and trade will improve energy security. Unfortunately, this is exactly backwards—a cap and trade scheme will undermine and erode our nation’s energy security. When many people express concern about energy security, they are concerned about oil imported from foreign countries. They do not realize that domestically produced oil is our number one source of oil<5> and Canada is our number source of oil outside the U.S. During 2007, the last complete year for which data is available, only 17 percent of the oil we consumed came from the Middle East.<6>

But cap and trade will assess a heavy penalty on Canadian oil. Much of the oil we get comes from its vast reserves of oil sands. Because it requires more energy to extract the resources from those sands than it does to produce oil in the Middle East, cap and trade will make Canadian oil more expensive than oil from the Middle East.

Cap and trade, therefore, creates incentives to import more oil from the Middle East, not less. Cap and trade also penalizes domestic oil extraction from oil shale. In Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming, estimates suggest that 800 billion barrels of oil resources are ready to be produced.<7> For a sense of scale, that’s more than three times as much oil as Saudi Arabia has in its reserve. Also, the U.S. has the world’s largest coal reserves.<8> At current usage rates, we have 200-250 years of demonstrated coal reserves.<9> Coal-to-liquids could give the U.S. much larger reserves of petroleum fuels.



Indeed, the cost-effective way to reduce carbon dioxide emissions is to use less energy. But energy is the lifeblood of the economy. Energy allows us to do more work with less time and effort. As a result, there is a strong correlation between energy use and economic prosperity, as the chart below demonstrates:

http://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/2009/03/12/cap-and-trade-primer-eight-reasons-why-cap-and-trade-harms-the-economy-and-reduces-jobs/

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. Global warming deniers NEVER think this issue through.
.
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. You forgot this option:
Open the door, run like hell for 20 seconds and then seek immediate shelter.

Unless, the person telling you about the incident is a close friend just loaded with practical jokes.
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
8. Does it matter if we were planning on driving it over a cliff anyways?
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. It depends on your attitude, you can just say to hell with it and
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-03-09 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
11. If this is about Global climate change
I think our "thirty seconds" were up decades ago :(
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. It is, and I tend to agree, but
we can make the ultimate catastrophe less bad if we start acting now, instead of keeping our heads in the sand. I hope, anyway.
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Ah, well in that case
You definitely need a better analogy - just sayin'
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
16. When will those saying "GET OUT OF THE CAR NOW" do what this thread is alluding,
Edited on Fri Dec-04-09 02:41 PM by Deja Q
and dump their car, computer, EVERYTHING?

Hmmm, thought not...
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. not necessary to dump everything, BUT
I have already made many lifestyle changes (and have been "since before it was cool")

If everyone took the steps I was taking 20 years ago we'd be in a lot less bad place right now. But NO, the denialists want the people who see the problem to "dump everything" (unilaterally and with no mutual agreement or compensation) rather than everyone making relatively much smaller sacrifices. (Should this attitude be considered typical of "progressives", I wonder?)

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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Unlike our profession, the world is not binary. n/t
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Fla_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
17. I really love that song
:evilgrin:


Extra Credit: Are you referring to when they tell people to evac for a hurricane, and the idiots go out on P.C. beach and throw a party? :shrug:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
19. Immediately increase insurance coverage?
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
21. It's already blown up and ignited the chemical factory and amunition depot it was parked by.
Giant bombs and chemical tanks are exploding like chains of fire crackers. Every living thing in the vicinity is getting incinerated and flaming wreckage is falling out of the sky. Death is everywhere.

Do you stand there stupidly, your drooling mouth open, and your feet frozen in place, not comprehending the scope of the disaster, waiting to be obliterated by the flaming debris, or do you run away as fast as you can and vow that you'll never, ever pull that sort of stupid ass stunt again.

You knew there was a huge time bomb ticking away in the car long before the thirty second warning.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-05-09 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Your analogy is more accurate
but I did want to keep it simple. :)
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yawnmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-04-09 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
23. I'd stay in the car...
gotta go sometime, and if its real, might as well go enjoying a really good song, instead of running out all frightened, anxious, and not enjoying my song.
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