Troops Finding New Service as Teachers

[babylonsister]

Troops Finding New Service as Teachers

By BERNIE BECKER
Published: December 5, 2009


WASHINGTON — In her last job in the Air Force, Tammie Langley gave prospective pilots and navigators an introduction to aeronautics. Four years later, Ms. Langley is in a different sort of classroom, teaching sixth graders in North Carolina everything from reading to math.

The settings may be radically different, but Ms. Langley said the transition from teaching 22-year-olds to teaching 11- or 12-year-olds had been fairly seamless. “Either way, you still have to kind of wipe their noses a bit and kick them in the behind every now and then,” said Ms. Langley, who is in her second year at Kannapolis Intermediate School, about 25 miles north of Charlotte.

Ms. Langley, 36, became a schoolteacher in large part because of Troops to Teachers, a federal program that, over 15 years, has helped about 12,000 former service members transition into second careers in the classroom. Now, a bipartisan group in Congress is hoping to expand the program to allow more veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan to sign up, while also increasing the number of places in which they could find employment.

Not all of the veterans who enter the classroom with the help of Troops to Teachers, some of whom are up to a generation older than teachers starting right out of college, share Ms. Langley’s background in formal instruction. But the program’s supporters and participants say that military service in general provides the sort of discipline and life experiences that translate well to teaching.

“My very first sergeant said, ‘Practice doesn’t make perfect,’ ” said Moises Perez, 50, a social studies teacher in Clayton County, Ga., who spent nearly 24 years in the Army, including service in Afghanistan. “He said, ‘Perfect practice makes perfect.’ That’s what I want to teach the kids.”

C. Emily Feistritzer, president of the National Center for Education Information, said: “We’re finding that these teachers seem to be able to really manage a classroom from the start, which is the biggest problem a lot of teachers have going in. And they come in thinking all children can learn, without any sort of socioeconomic biases.”

more...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/education/06troops.html?hp

[MadHound]

1. Another way of breaking the backs of teacher's unions, denigrating teachers

And putting our children at risk of learning less and less.

Despite this happy rosy picture painted by the article, I've known a few vets who used this program, and they were an utter disaster. No empathy for kids, no knowledge of how to adapt plans for different kinds of learners, just an utter and complete disaster from the start.

But hey, this is just another weapon in the assault on education, allowing teachers to be paid less and less while continuing to dumb down our kids.

[C_Lawyer09]

2. That is a disgusting and misinformed response

That you can slam a complete program, and completely pigeon whole vets, possibly a few bad apples, but I doubt it. If you care to actually assess the program, you will find that qualification for the program relies on several competencies being met. In the case of Special Education, for my current state of residence, several tests, in addition to a substantial curriculum, in addition to whatever baccalaureate degree is possessed need to be completed. In large part, Troops to Teachers has been an overwhelming success, especially because many vets utilize the program recieving stipends to teach in underrepresented areas, i.e. poor rural, or urban, with lack of qualified teachers. Lateral entry is not an option in most states right now, with the exception of a few math and science positions, because of the economy. In NC the state vis a vis county boards of education are mandated to select fully qualified teachers first. If none are available, then other options are considered. How you would equate this program to the denigration of the teaching profession is an absolute mystery. Lack of appreciation for teaching? Stretched budgets, brought on by skewed priorities? Greater privatization within the industry? Most teachers I know are broad minded searchers of truth. They take their job seriously, often at personal expense. One thing veteran teachers bring to the table, is a diverse amount of world experience, and a broad spectrum of teaching acumen. Thinking outside of the box, and reacting on your feet to extremely adverse situations, in many cases is the day to day routine. If you have a dislike of vets, for whatever reason/s, don't use your ridiculous argument as justification, talk about the real issues. Your post is an undeserved and unwelcome slap in the face to many whom have stepped up to the plate during an extremely difficult time. I'll refrain from personally insulting you, but feel you should spend some time asking yourself if your opinions have been arrived at reasonably.

[MadHound]

4. "I'll refrain from insulting you personally" LOL, nice try

As to where my observations come from, they come from the field itself, from observing these "teachers" in action. The overwhelming majority of those that I have observed have been seriously sub par. Yeah, they may be great in keeping a classroom quiet, but a loud voice and intimidating manner can do that. But there's much more to classroom management, and teaching in general, than being loud and intimidating.

You wonder if I hate teachers, no, I am a teacher. You wonder if I hate vets, no, I don't, I have several family members and friend who have either served or are currently serving.

What I do hate is using vets as essentially scabs for the teaching profession, driving down wages and driving down quality teaching. These vets who are coming back don't have to take anywhere near the classwork that ordinary teaching candidates do, they get too much credit for "life experiences". Not to mention that, unlike regular professionals, they get their tuition paid for, thus they can take the jobs in the inner cities and rural areas for a lower salary, thus driving down wages for the entire profession.

Look at the comments made above, these "teachers" are running their classes like boot camp. Sorry, but that goes against a lot of good pedagogy and a lot of good common sense. Furthermore, having observed some of these "teachers" in action, they simply don't cut it. They don't have the background, they don't have the full education that one needs in order to be an effective teacher. For instance, I seriously doubt if the sixth grade teacher mentioned in the OP has any clue about converting lessons from basal to whole language, or if she even knows the theoretical underpinnings of either school of thought.

Sorry if you don't like my assessment, but it comes from the real world. This is not meant to slam vets, if I were one I might very well join the program as well. It also isn't meant to slam teachers. It is to point out the reality of the matter, that this is a bad program, one that is undermining the teaching profession and undermining our kids' education.

[C_Lawyer09]

7. It is self evident in your post that you are a teacher

How many vets are you basing your experience on? I don't know any vets who treat the classroom as a basic training environment. I didn't personally insult you. I notice that you didn't address the points I made concerning qualification. Do you understand that the board of education is mandated to select teachers that are fully qualified first, before they evaluate any lateral entry candidates? I also take issue with the supposed dumbing down of students. Many military instructors have to teach real world skills and application that are much more challenging that current schools curriculum requirments. Avionics, SatCom, Farsi, Explosive Ordnance Disposal, Powerplant Operations, etc. My military occupational specialty is Army Parachute Rigger, I also spent five years in the Marine Corps. I'ts rare that any instructors yell, scream, use hazing techniques, like various types of physical training etc. except in environments where a high degree of stress needs to be simulated. Ranger School, Sapper School, Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape, (SERE)school. A Special Forces Medic aquires the equivalent of a Physicians Assistant qualification (M.A.)within a years worth of instruction. The attrition rate is 80 percent, for first time graduate ration. I think these guys are some of the best instructors on the planet, having worked with them at the Robin Sage exercise on Fort Bragg, which is the culmination of the SF Qualification course. I've been tutoring part time at a primary school. I'm confident I'd be a good teacher, with some pedagogy instruction. I think the bigger enemy to the teaching profession is burn outs, and for that, I hold the sytem partially accountable. Obviously, if more than half of high school grads I interviewed couldn't answer the following questions: What is half of seven and one half, and read this word to me, (chaos), there is a big systemic problem. For rehabilitation of our system, especially secondary, I think we should model it after that of the current German system. The operative description would be "relative".

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. "fully qualified first"

Yet they are not. A couple weeks of training in the summer and then they are placed in a classroom. That's not fully trained.

[C_Lawyer09]

12. Something is amiss

That sounds nothing like the Troops to teachers program I've had explained at length to me, or that I've asked probably 50 questions about. It is a federal program, so I wouldn't think requirements vary from state to state. Maybe I'm missing some emergency lateral entry loop hole? Oh well, I hope you don't allow a few vets that are bad teachers taint your opinion of what has been one of few successful vet-centric programs. Take care, and fight the good fight.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. Why do you call it successful?

Do you have any data to back that up or are you just basing that opinion on those 50 questions you have asked?

Since I am actually in a school and have seen this program in action, my anecdotal experience seems more relevant. Of course I only know the one guy, but as I said, a few weeks of training can't begin to replace a couple college degrees in the field.

[C_Lawyer09]

17. I did my best to give you a more informed perspective

I may have failed. The district of Columbia, Vegas, Colorado Springs, San Diego and L.A. recently cited many successes of troops to teachers. My goal is not to convince the unconvincible. If you are assuming I think shake and bake lectures or symposiums equate to degrees and real world experience, you are mistaken. Sadly, it's my opinion that your bitterness has been wrongly directed toward a large and diverse group (vets) instead of where it might be better placed. Cest la vie. Wish you the best.

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. I'm not bashing vets; don't know where you got that idea

[MadHound]

34. Do you have any hard proof concerning those successes?

I would be interested in seeing some hard data backing up those claims that you make.

[MadHound]

33. One thing that you've got to learn, one attitude that you've got to change

And that is that whole "vet-centric" thing. Once you step into a school, "vet-centric" doesn't cut it. In school, it's all about the students, and part of being "student-centric" is that you're expected to know the full range of pedagogy that is involved in teaching. You're not expected to be an expert right off the bat, but you are expected to have the requisite knowledge to allow your growth and development progress at a rapid rate. Taking a few courses, then thinking that you're qualified to teach is selling both you and your students short.

[C_Lawyer09]

178. What you've got to change is not realizing what the current t to t program requires

Only in emergency circumstances is lateral entry approved by school boards. I've tried to make this abundantly clear in prior postings. Lateral entry will take place if, and only if there are not available teachers that meet all the mandated qualifications. Is everybody selectively interpreting my posts?

[HelenWheels]

123. delete

[HelenWheels]

124. If the military paid for their college ed to teach

that would be one thing but just to declare they are good to teach is crap. Besides with the bullshit job they do with PTSD I don't want them in my child's classroom.

[Dinger]

143. Touché Helen

:headbang: :yourock: :fistbump: :pals: :patriot:

[C_Lawyer09]

180. I love how you conveniently ignore all my posts

That are clarifying exactly what you question. Yes, you have to be qualified to teach.

[Dinger]

146. Exactly

You are spot on.:thumbsup: :hi:

[MadHound]

32. Actually quite a few

Having lived in rural areas, and in the Midwest, vets have been a fairly common fixture in the classroom for a long time.

At least the older ones, the ones that I grew up with, had actually gone to college for the full course of classes needed to be a teacher. However they still treated their classrooms like boot camp and their method of discipline was harsh and they tended to barking out things a lot.

The ones that I've observed recently are much, much worse. I watched one poor fellow struggling through a lesson plan, and I suggested that he tried following Vygotsky's social constructivism method. He looked at me like I was speaking a foreign language. I asked another about where on Bloom's taxonomy was he working, and his answer was "Bloom's what?". Sorry, but that is a critical lack of knowledge. It's not just a matter of knowing fancy words or airy theories, it's about putting into practice tried and true methods to get kids to learn, and if you don't even know these things yourself, how in the hell can you expect to be effective?

And they still bark. I watched one former Marine just lose it. He went off on this one girl and brought her to tears, and then continued on. At the time, being a student teacher, it wasn't my place to step in here, but I damn near did anyway. I made certain that the administration and other teachers knew what was going on in his classroom and he was gone at the end of the year.

I recognize that our military receives much valuable training in uniform, and that much of it can translate to comparable jobs in the civilian world. However that simply doesn't hold for teaching. Unless you are willing to go through the full education program then you simply don't belong in teaching. This not only applies to military teachers, but also to other candidates that they're accepting without the full range of knowledge that they receive in a college education degree. These candidates are usually willing to work for less, and yes, many times they are hired ahead of college educated teachers. And yes, this does lead to the dumbing down of students because you may have all the knowledge in the world, but can't effectively impart it, you're not doing your job properly.

You may think that you can be an effective teacher with "some pedagogy instruction", I strongly suggest that you don't try and shortcut this. Go through the full four years of a college program, your knowledge base will be much larger and you will have a much better repitoire of teaching skills that if you simply take a few classes here and there, then take this shortcut into teaching. It will serve you well to know what you're getting into, and how to handle the thousands of things that get thrown at you everyday. You might know how to rig parachutes, but try dealing with an IEP cold, or worse yet, an unmotivated people.

Yes, there are problems in the education system, but they aren't problems that can be solved by putting half trained vets in there and expecting them to perform miracles. You can't use shortcuts with our kids and expect everything to work out right, it simply won't happen.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. I work with one of these vet teachers

Madhound is spot on correct.

It's sad. Not good for the kids and a shame to our profession.

[noamnety]

86. I've worked with one bad teacher who wasn't a vet.

Now we've proved all teachers are bad, I guess.

;)

[proud2BlibKansan]

138. If that works for you, roll with it.

:crazy:

[truth2power]

30. Hmm..."If you have a dislike of vets..." Sounds like a strawman to me...

I don't know how you make that leap from what the poster said.

[C_Lawyer09]

185. I make that leap

Because the argument/s state that vets are a "certain type of teacher" and who don't have to meet certain criteria. Further, several keep crying about how their thousands spent on their education is good money, and G.I. bill benefits are bad money, or somehow don't meet the same standard. Far from a strawman. Even after I attempted to explain the nuances several times, the anti-vet comments just kept coming, and the boot camp, basic training analogies. Bear in mind, I attempted to explain the error in those generalizations as well.

[Dinger]

145. Welcome To DU

[Obamanaut]

3. How telling that the very first objection has to do with "...breaking the

backs of the teacher's unions..."

[MadHound]

5. What, you don't like the teacher's unions? Or do you just not like teachers?

Which is it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

9. It's okay to break a union?

Not in my book.

[Dinger]

148. Mine Either

And having people, with good intentions (but no teaching degree) educate children is definitely NOT in their best interest.

[arcadian]

16. Not to mention, it's been my experience that most vets in the classroom

are right-wing assholes, pushing their right-wing agendas.

[izquierdista]

18. How to indoctrinate another generation

Make sure that agenda is pushed at an impressionable age.

[C_Lawyer09]

20. Talk about a broad brush

My four uncles all are retired teachers, none of them conservative assholes, none with a right wing agenda. I feel you're allowing a personal prejudice to influence a rational thought process. Your hypothesis that vets represent shitty teachers, and non-vets are more representative of good teachers is ludicrous. Having said that, everybody has their own prejudices, admitted or not. My four uncles on my moms side are all retired teachers, jr. high through college level, Seattle and Spokane, WA. All are liberal. Your contention (as I assume a teacher?) based on your experience obviously is not representative of any true cross cut of society that could give an accurate representation of what factors substantiate good or bad teaching. I'm sickened that you hold such a narrow minded opinion, based on what is clearly a very narrow sampling of the field. I hope you don't pass this on to your students.

[arcadian]

22. Is that a gut feeling?

That you got there. Man you need to lighten up. Sickened? Something that you casually read on the internet from a complete stranger had that much of an affect on you? Not only that, you make assumptions which are entirely not true, something which you accuse me of doing in the "body" of your post. Seriously dude, step away from the keyboard and go take a walk or something. The crisp air will do you good.

[ShortnFiery]

42. self-delete

[Dinger]

153. OkeeDokee

:crazy: :eyes:

[nemo137]

26. Thinking back on my HS teachers

The ones who actually served tended to be on the left, and the ones who hadn't were on the right. I can't think of a single exception to this rule in my high school.

[noamnety]

161. There have only been two veterans at my school

The other one was totally psyched about voting for Obama, I am left of Obama.

[ShortnFiery]

41. Most, but not all.

;) :hi:

[Dinger]

149. To Be Fair,

most, but not all. I do agree with you.

[PassingFair]

163. One of my kid's "vet" teachers had pictures of himself with Ann Coulter on his MySpace!

No joke.

He's a crappy teacher, but at least
he allows dissenting opinions in his
classroom and he always told me that
my children were, in his words,
"respectful, very respectful"....

:eyes:

[backscatter712]

35. In other words, you end up with Bradley Buzzcut from Beavis & Butthead...

KICK ME IN THE JIMMY!!!

[mitchum]

45. +1, 000,000

[Nikki Stone1]

112. +1 Madhound.

My thoughts exactly.

[Dinger]

141. It Is An All-Our war On Public Schools, Teachers, And Unions

Don't think they'll stop at teacher's unions either.

[LWolf]

151. Yes. nt

[NNN0LHI]

159. When did you become worried about the fate of union workers MadHound?

You have stated here before you refuse to buy a car made by American union auto workers but you want me to be concerned about your union job? Sounds like you have already been dumbed down plenty.

:rofl:

Don

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. I'm very familiar with this program; I have a co-worker in it.

For some reason the powers that be assume a soldier who has faced the enemy in a combat field will have no problem teaching children.

They couldn't be more wrong.

Little to no training and voila! Thrown to the wolves in a classroom. The guy does know his subject matter but the kids are eating him alive. He thinks he is bullet proof and that attitude doesn't go far with tough urban kids.

I seriously doubt he will last till the end of the year. At this point, Christmas may arrive and find him unemployed.

It's also very insulting to the teaching profession to send the message that a few weeks of training in August and anyone can teach. Those of us with 6 years+ of expensive college coursework have a hard time with this.

[Catshrink]

11. More teacher bashing here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7166161

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. Sad

I guess I could start taking my kids home to make sure they do their homework, don't overdose on video games and get to bed early enough to get up and catch the bus every morning. Then you can hold me responsible if they can't spell.

[eilen]

21. That along with a one year program

being equivalent to a masters level physician's assistant.

[C_Lawyer09]

23. The point is

That six years worth of training is condensed into a year. That is why the attrition rate is eighty percent. Don't take my word for it, check it out. In my mind Special Forces Medics, as a group, are some of the most highly trained, professional, and great instructors I've ever worked around. The amount of skill sets, both real world and analytical are nothing short of amazing. The depth of experience they possess is also remarkable. So, you obviously missed my point, but not a problem. Hope all you teachers are able to realize your worth, both in sense of fulfillment, that seems lacking, and by way of other compensation.

[arcadian]

24. Hey! Here is somebody who's firmly in your camp.

Erik Prince, from Blackwater, he's going to become a history teacher and coach wrestling. Why do they all go into social sciences, huh? And become coaches? The administration will just kow tow to these guys, make them coaches because of their "life experiences" and then give them a social studies classroom, and that is the reason why social studies has always been taught so badly, because it's taught by coaches, not be real teachers.

[C_Lawyer09]

171. Going to have to respectfully disagree

My wrestling coach was also my History teacher, the best teacher I ever had. He had an MA in anthropology from Stanford, and a doctorate in I'm assuming History, but not sure. He self funded several field trips for students that volunteered. I came from a poor district. As you may already realize, Social Studies teaching jobs are in short supply. That was my goal during the last several years of my Army career. Not sure why any of my postings beckon this post, But my posts haven't endorsed much military privatization, not that you care to know.

[vadawg]

27. +1 those that can do, those that cant..........

[Catshrink]

28. That is absolute bullshit

and an insult to those of us who've dedicated our lives to teaching kids. What do you think teaching is all about anyway? Do you think it's just standing up in front of a group of kids and spewing facts all day long?

[C_Lawyer09]

172. I sure don't

My posts were focused on what is really happening within the troops to teachers program, and also asserting that many former Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines are valuable teachers that are appreciated.

[tonysam]

50. Those that can't become principals or education department secretaries. n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. Arne Duncan is not a teacher

Exhibit A. :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. But if they actually worked as medics in the military, they do have some experience in the field

That's not the same as teaching, since teaching in the military is not even remotely close to teaching children in our public schools.

[dgibby]

Bingo!

Many medics, corspmen go on the become PA's , RN's, LPN's, physicians, but they have to meet strict educational requirements and pass state board exams first.

[C_Lawyer09]

173. What experience or second hand information do you have about teaching in the military

You're teaching to a hugely diverse group, that must master an extremely high degree of information, usually in a short time. That said, it is clear that you've made up your mind to dig in, and either refuse to acknowledge, or outright refute anything that I've mentioned. Your open mindedness is appreciated.

[tonysam]

49. Revolving door teachers is the trend now. Teaching is not a profession

anymore, despite what the Bureau of Labor claims. People going through these short-term programs or even full-blown teaching programs in regular colleges and universities can expect a shelf life of no more than three to five years in their "careers."

As long as people flood the job market wanting to be teachers, the more incentive there is for school districts to treat teachers like shit.

[dgibby]

60. I'm a retired Navy nurse (22yr vet)

I'm no more qualified to walk into a classroom and teach than my dog is.

I'd raise hell if this program was expanded to the health care field. Can you imagine your doctor or nurse coming off AD, being given a few weeks prep, then turned loose in a hospital? Makes about as much sense.

Teaching is a PROFESSION, as is nursing, as is being a physician. As such, they all have rigorus academic requirements. If you want to join one of these disciplines, meet the educational requirements first.

Full disclosure: My dad, brothers, uncles were all vets. I have a great nephew in the Marines serving in Afghanistan now, my grandmother was a teacher. Not only do I not have anything against teachers or vets, I'm a supporter of both.

[tonysam]

61. Teaching is supposed to be a profession requiring years of training,

but it's not that way anymore. It's being deskilled to the point teachers are no more than test prep instructors and proctors. Independent thinking is dangerous in this field.

[yurbud]

88. thank you! politicians use education as a punching bag and political football then

wonder why more people aren't attracted to the job.

[C_Lawyer09]

175. Then read my posts and do your homework

I explained at length, how the troops to teachers program, at least in NC, currently works. Take a moment, 22 year Sailor and actually check out what the curriculum of an SF medic entails. Spell check your post, and then actually absorb what is being posted. If you'd prefer to save fact checking until later, than by all means, continue on your current path.

[noamnety]

164. Are you his mentor? nt

[nemo137]

25. I seem to remember either this or a similar program from when I was in middle school

so, many (8-9ish, at least) years ago.

[msongs]

31. "...kick them in the behind every now and then." - military abuse transferred to kids nt

[janx]

36. Sounds good to me--

this is K through 12?

[janx]

37. I found this:

"Additional Information

This program supports the highly successful work of the Department of Defense's Troops-to-Teachers program. The program was established by the Department of Defense in 1994 to help improve public school education by providing funds to recruit, prepare, and support former members of the military services as teachers in high-poverty schools.

Under this program, the Secretary of Education transfers funds to the Department of Defense for the Defense Activity for Non-Traditional Education Support (DANTES) to provide assistance, including stipends of up to $5,000, to eligible members of the armed forces so that they can obtain certification or licensing as elementary school teachers, secondary school teachers, or vocational/technical teachers and become highly qualified teachers by demonstrating competency in each of the subjects they teach. In addition, the program helps these individuals find employment in high-need local educational agencies (LEA's) or charter schools. A "high need LEA" is defined as an LEA that has a poverty rate of at least 20 percent or at least 10,000 poor children and has a high percentage of teachers teaching out of field or with emergency credentials. In lieu of the $5,000 stipends, DANTES may pay $10,000 bonuses to participants who agree to teach in high-poverty schools. A "high-poverty school" is defined as a school where at least 50 percent of the students are from low-income families or the school has a large percentage of student who qualify for assistance under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.

Members of the armed forces who wish to receive the program's assistance for placement as an elementary or secondary school teacher must have a baccalaureate or advance degree, and their last period of service in the armed forces must have been honorable. In selecting members of the armed forces to participate in the program, the Department of Defense must give priority to those members who have educational or military experience in science, mathematics, special education, or vocational/technical subjects and who agree to seek employment as teachers in a subject area compatible with their backgrounds."

http://www.ed.gov/programs/troops/index.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. Can I have a $10,000 bonus?

I have been teaching in high poverty schools for 30 years. That $10,000 would go a long way toward buying classroom supplies my district no longer provides.

[janx]

44. I sympathize!

But I think these $5,000/$10,000 bonuses are actually scholarships for teacher training, no?

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. I don't know

We have Teach For America in my district and those wanna be teachers are trained at no cost to them. They teach for two years, are paid a salary, and end up with a masters degree in education that didn't cost them a dime.

Meanwhile real teachers pay $10,000 and more for a masters degree and it's all out of their own pocket.

[janx]

54. I know about the costs of master's degrees...

;-)

But Teach for America is a highly competitive program, and I don't think that the TFA graduates aren't "real" teachers just because they earned their degrees in a different way. :shrug:

[tonysam]

55. They aren't real teachers. Period.

Short term training doesn't cut it in this field.

[janx]

68. Could you be more specific?

?

That program always seemed very innovative to me. What DOES cut it then?

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. Teach for America treats teaching like working in the Peace Corps

It also promotes the false notion that anyone with a college degree can be a teacher.

No, I don't believe that you can call someone a teacher who doesn't have a degree in education.

I also would rather see programs that create lifelong teachers. Teach for America tells its recruits that their teaching experience will look good on a law school or MBA application.

Another unknown is that Teach for America requires districts to sign multi year contracts. That results in college educated real teachers being laid off while Teach for America interns are placed in those positions.

Ask any parent who they would rather have teaching their child - a fully certified teacher who graduated from a university education program or a college graduate without an education degree who still hasn't decided what she wants to do when she grows up so she decided to take advantage of a free masters degree and a teacher's salary for two years?

[janx]

70. So nobody who doesn't have a degree in education should teach?

What levels of education are we talking about here? I can't imagine that this would hold true for high school, and I know it doesn't for college.

[Catshrink]

74. Try it...then you'll understand.

[janx]

76. I have, and I do.

That's why I asked the questions that I did...if that makes any sense. ;-)

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. I am an elementary teacher

And no, I have high standards and prefer university educated fully certified teachers. I've seen dozens of these 'anyone with a degree can learn to teach' programs in the 30 years I have taught and don't have a high opinion of any of them.

[janx]

89. But it's not an either/or situation, is it?

I can understand child development courses for elementary teachers, and even middle school teachers. But I wish that more high schools would have teachers would have advanced degrees in their subject areas.

I introduced some "at risk" high school kids to college over the past two summers. The first time I did so, it wasn't bad, but last summer was insane. A colleague of mine had the same experience.

[proud2BlibKansan]

98. Yes it is, IMO

We either have properly trained fully certified teachers or we don't.

I know which ones I prefer teaching my own children. :)

[janx]

122. I'd rather see people with advanced degrees in their subject

areas teaching high school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

126. And I think classroom management is far more important

If you can't make them pay attention, it doesn't matter how many advanced degrees you have.

[janx]

127. The two are not mutally exclusive,

although the methods might be different.

[proud2BlibKansan]

133. I think they are.

When I was a freshman in high school, we had a Physics teacher who was piloting a textbook she wrote. She was a brilliant scientist with several degrees. There were probably only a handful of 'experts' in the country who understood physics better than she did. But she was probably the worst teacher I had in high school. She knew zero about classroom management and we ran circles around her.

If you can't make them sit still and listen, it doesn't matter how well you know your subject matter.

[tonysam]

135. Classroom management is the most difficult part of working in a classroom

It takes years to master it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

139. I'm still working on it

:)

[tonysam]

140. I don't think a teacher EVER fully masters it because the kids are different

every year, and it's worse with special education students, as you well know.

[janx]

167. High school students should already know how to sit still and listen.

I'll admit that ninth grade is on the cusp of that definition, but still...It sounds as if your physics teacher didn't know how to teach. Maybe she didn't enjoy teaching.

I've known some teachers with advanced degrees who taught high school very well and who didn't have to devote a large amount of time teaching high school kids to sit and listen--because they didn't have to. They were engaging and knew how to bring a subject alive for their students. But people like that are rare.

[proud2BlibKansan]

170. She was a horrible teacher - but an expert in her field

Engaging students is far more important than subject knowledge.

[Bill McBlueState]

187. I know tons of people with advanced degrees in astronomy, myself included

About 75% of us *think* we can teach really well, but only about 1 in 20 actually can.

People with advanced degrees in the subject matter tend to imagine that, if we explain things very clearly, everyone will instantly get it. We tend not to know much about the research into how people actually learn.

[Cid_B]

188. Wow...

You must have a degree in education otherwise you aren't a "real teacher."

In other words you have the one true path and anyone who deviates from it just doesn't cut the mustard.

[noamnety]

69. I don't begrudge veterans any of their benefits.

Veterans statistically earn much less than people who never serve, and they put themselves at risk of all sorts of mental and physical disabilities. I think being jealous of them getting a scholarship is somewhat similar to being jealous of people in poverty getting food stamps.

There are plenty of things in life to be envious of - being jealous of all the "perks" combat vets get just isn't one of them.

[janx]

72. I agree with you and think that they'd be great at getting

the idea of self-discipline across to students.

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. Who said I was jealous?

I simply find it odd that we are rewarding wanna be teachers (who, IMO, are degrading to our profession) with $10,000 while lifelong veteran teachers don't even get money to buy supplies for their classrooms. That's not jealousy, it's misplaced priorities and injustice.

To compare this to food stamp recipients is ridiculous.

I also happen to believe our kids deserve better than this. But if it works for you, I can send the vet teaching in my building to come work with you. Then you can see for yourself. Let him teach YOUR kids. Get back to us on how well it works out for you.

[tonysam]

137. It makes me SICK somebody is getting a handout

and doesn't have to put the time in necessary as I had to do, even though I was on post-bachelor's degree, first licensure program. Nobody paid for this; it all came out of my pocket.

Because the state had a shortage of sped teachers, I went into the so-called "options" program where I could teach special ed but was taking all of the requirements necessary to get my credential. I was already a certified teacher when I was hired to teach sped. I still had to pay for the classes myself. I had all of the same requirements as a regular spec ed teacher.

I received my clear credential shortly before I was wrongfully canned.

[Cid_B]

189. Totally...

combat vets get all the good free stuff!

:sarcasm:

[C_Lawyer09]

182. Now it is abundantly clear you have a prejudice

I implore you, to actually familiarize yourself with the program. Then come back, take a deep breath, and explain who exactly recieves the 10k stipend and why. I've earned my BA on GI bill benefits, and stand ready to complete my certification with the same. You and several others have insinuated that vets are blowing into classrooms unqualifed above other teachers, whom have spent thousands on their precious education. I earned my education while working 60-100 hours per week, and refuse to let you and others bastardize the program, and/or vets who have taken advantage of it. You should be ashamed of yourself. The main thing most vets bring to whatever employment they find, is selfless service, regardless of circumstance.

[C_Lawyer09]

181. Thank you very much for asserting that the GI Bill is not a handout

For undeserving men and women that have often paid a substantial price for their VA home loan and GI bill benefits.

[haele]

38. In my experance, veteranss that go on to successfully teach children -

have along with their instructor courses in the military, three years plus under their belts. I'm a retired veteran (USN) that has been through military instructor's training in the 1980's. My father is a retired high school teacher and a retired vet (split - CANG in the 60's, Navy Reserve in the 90's), and has gone through several iterations of military instructor school (latest in 1991, which is similar to the one they teach now) and through master's programs in both history and high school/jr. college level education. Some of my favorite teachers when I was growing up were veterans of WWII and Korea who got their ED's through the GI bill.

In both my father's and my experiances, the teaching/instructional training the military gives you is pretty much exclusive to teaching motivated adults (or at least marginally motivated adults). The course of instruction on how to "correct" or "change focus" of the military student is based on leadership models that work with adults - a student that can handle taking responsibility for thier own actions in that they can be simply dropped from their "career path" and switched to one more suited to them if they don't make the effort or have the capability to learn in their career path.

Teaching children is different than teaching adults, or even young adults. Children don't have a variety of "career paths" until they hit Junior year in High School and start seriously thinking on what they're going to do once they pass the standardized exit test proving to the state they know the basics. Even AP and gifted programs are still geared to a certain standard outcome.
It's more difficult than simply keeping their attention and focus; it's trying to modify basic concepts of learning to different types and levels of preception and maturity, so the child can grasp not only the subject being taught, but the different techiniques of logic, understanding, and problem solving that are used for different activities.

The real three "R"s of learning aren't "readin', 'ritin', 'rithmatic" they are:
"Research" - gathering observations, facts, or results and creating a logical hypothesis, activity, or answer;
"Rhetoric" - being able to commuincate that hypothesis, activity, or answer;
"Replication" - being able to replicate and further apply that hypothesis or activity to other applications.
Oh, and there's a fourth "R" - Relevancy. Learning how to determine what is relevant and what is not in any given situation.

Children spend 6 - 10 years learning how to learn (and some take up to 20 years or more,) depending on their physical or mental/emotional state. This is a situation that we as adults tend to forget was necissary when we were growing up.

In my opinion, the school districts that hire vets right out of the military to teach children under, say, 16 or 17, are doing both those vets and those children a disservice in the name of cutting costs. Unless the vet has the training and experiance to work with large groups of children who don't have the same qualities of discipline or willingness to learn, they cannot possibly hope to actually teach public school; the most they can do is hopefully keep the kids from getting into trouble while they are residing in that classroom for the 45 minutes to an hour a day.

If the veteran instructor is not willing to use their GI bill and work their way through at least 3 years of courses in child/adolescent education, they really should be sticking to teaching Adult/Continuing Education. They should be required to nmeet the same standards as substitute teachers do. Otherwise, it's just providing stopgap throwing bodies in the schools to provide "quality" babysitting.

Haele

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. +1

Well said. Thank you!

[Catshrink]

48. Well said. Thank you.

[ShortnFiery]

77. Thanks for explaining the need for child/adolescent education.

I typed around the subject below but you EXPLAINED this need in a way least likely to "ruffle feathers." My respect. :hi:

[noamnety]

97. What you described isn't the troops to teachers program.

The troops to teachers program requires the teachers to go through whatever the state certification requirements are.

So they are teachers with the same qualifications as other teachers in addition to be veterans. It's a funding source for certification. Look up the program yourself.

If your district is hiring military vets straight out of military service with no certification, that is something else, not troops to teachers. I can understand why people would be upset with that.

[C_Lawyer09]

177. Thankyou for succinctly stating

What I've spent several fruitless posts attempting to make clear.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

118. Thank you so much for this thoughtful and insightful post. +1000!

[itsrobert]

43. Good for the troops

Looks like a great program.

[ShortnFiery]

46. For some perhaps. However, it takes "a certain personality" to do well as "a teacher."

I've noted through my part time work as a substitute teacher (we get all the TESTS) that those who tend to act authoritarian will experience "hell on earth."

Anyone who believes that discipline will surmount all odds, never raised a teenager.

I don't know about this particular program, but military personnel need to have an appreciation for the emotional state of children and teens (Child Development education).

What works to discipline troops does NOT necessarily work for Junior and High School Students.

Need I mention the fictional ... but not so far-off "Ferris Bueller's Day Off?" :shrug:

[itsrobert]

52. You're sadly mistaken on troops

You never were a troop so you have a warp reality of them. Many have raised teenagers, and many have been teenagers themselves.

[ShortnFiery]

53. Think AGAIN, I'm a former Army LT.

Gee, what have you to say for yourself now, LEG? :evilgrin:



p.s. I'm also an OUTSTANDING teacher but not an authoritarian one ... they eat you alive if you play that "drill sergeant" role on them. ;)

[noamnety]

59. Perhaps you aren't the only vet

who isn't authoritarian.

I don't think broadbrush statements on the personalities of veterans is helpful. It's stereotyping.

[ShortnFiery]

62. I was NOT pointing fingers at "vets in general." However, it benefits ALL who teach to

study emotional and mental effects of Child Development.

You have taken my words and extrapolated them to mean "all vets" when I meant "all aspiring teachers" should be familiar with Child Development.

[noamnety]

66. Well, of course all teachers should be familiar with child development.

I'm not sure why that's relevant to a discussion on a scholarship program to help veterans finance education degrees.

[ShortnFiery]

67. It's always relevant. You know that but won't accept it ... fine, we disagree. eom

[noamnety]

71. It would be relevant if they took different certification classes.

But since they have the same certification requirements, just different funding sources, it's like claiming that pell grant recipients aren't good teachers because they don't have an understanding of child development.

?

[ShortnFiery]

73. You generalize and then continue push THE SAME point into absurdity.

I wouldn't recommend such strategies with pre-adolescents and/or teenagers. ;)

p.s. I would recommend that former military personnel should be given more focused guidance as to how to MOTIVATE rather than PUNISH.

When we build teams within the Military, we first "tear down the individual" and then build the unit up as a team. Different strategies should be used within a classroom setting.

[noamnety]

79. I don't understand the points you are trying to make.

You seem to be claiming that vets are exempt from child development courses when they get certified to teach. That's obviously not true.

Maybe you are claiming that veterans aren't smart enough to absorb the content of the classes they take? I am not claiming that teachers are all geniuses, but I think anyone smart enough to make it through a teacher certification program is smart enough to understand that we don't succeed in a classroom by "tearing down students" or using only punishment.

I can't speak to the type of training that LT's get in the army. The NCO training we get emphasizes a bit more leadership skills than "bark orders, write people up if they are insubordinate, don't motivate, just punish." Is that what you were taught as an LT? Is that how you operated? (I'm guessing not.)

[ShortnFiery]

91. It's sad to see you extrapolate into absurdity ... just to make your point.

You're very defensive and it's not IMO, healthy.

Have a good day fellow veteran. :hi:

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. Actually they don't have the same certification requirements

You obviously don't know much about alternative certification programs. Here's a hint: there's a good reason for that term 'alternative'.

[noamnety]

90. Please cite references.

"Troops to Teachers Candidates must meet the same certification requirements that any other teacher must meet."

http://www.tttga.net/

[proud2BlibKansan]

106. As I have repeatedly said in this thread, I have first hand experience. I work with these 'teachers'

Once again. They take the courses (and they are watered down versions of the coursework an education major in a university takes) while they are teaching. They are placed in the classroom and paid as teachers BEFORE they complete the coursework.

[noamnety]

108. I suspect you are confusing an alternative certification program

that is open to anyone with Troops to Teachers.

Perhaps your confusion is because you happen to know a vet or vets who used their benefits to go that route. Some states do have alternative certification paths, but that is NOT the Troops to Teachers program.

If you know what the program is, please link it so we can read about it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. Once again. I have a co-worker in the program.

Should I call him and ask him to post his personal story here?

[noamnety]

82. It's not relevant to a discussion on how degrees are funded.

If we were discussing whether vets should be exempt from child development classes, that would be relevant.

But troops for teachers is a funding source, not an exemption so troops can avoid learning about child development.

[ShortnFiery]

65. Because we are trained to obey orders, it's not "off base" to claim that most vets

tend to default to an authoritarian style. Hey, it's often "a good thing" but we don't thrive on "nuance."

Sometimes, stereotypes are guidelines, nothing more, nothing less. :shrug:

[itsrobert]

78. My 25 years kinda trumps yours? Doesn't it?

Enlisted for 25 years. Thanks.

[ShortnFiery]

100. Yes, but your erroneous ASSUMPTIONS tend to negate your argument.

;)

[C_Lawyer09]

176. Lt. I'm curious why almost everybody on this board is wrongly assuming

That vets treat their classes like platoons. This shit is getting old. First, many on this board need to do their homework on the current regs regarding the troops to teachers program. Pedagogy is a part of it, as well as expertise in the subject matter. This post is absolutely mind boggling in the throwing around of misinformation based on pigeon hole theories derived from "my veteran teacher" scenarios. What's with all the whining about "I had to spend my money, so I'm special"? I worked eight on and eight off for five months to earn my G.I. bill. My point is exactly this. Stop generalizing a program or the person, unless you've got something other than a few personal experiences to back it up. I'm curious where all these de facto Drill Sergeants are, because I haven't met them. Stand up, hook up, shuffle to the door!

[proud2BlibKansan]

85. Experience as a parent does not translate to the classroom

Managing a group of 30 kids is not even remotely close to raising your own.

Yet another of the 'anyone can teach' myths.

[janx]

92. Managing a group of 30 kids?

Your school district is making you do that?

You should tell them that instead of "managing 30" you need to be TEACHING 20! My hat is off to you. I don't know how you do that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

103. The state is allowing it

Years ago we had a class size mandate - 22 in grades K thru 3, 27 in 4 thru 12. Then the state changed it from mandated to suggested. Now the suggested size is no more than 30.

[janx]

125. That's horrible.

No wonder there's such a term as "classroom management."

[ShortnFiery]

94. +1

My little league experiences as a Junior High and High School SUBSTITUTE Teacher has humbled me. Instructing Introductory Psychology for Florida State University to ADULTS was a far shot *easier* than Subbing at our local Junior High.

Sincerely, God Bless Professional Teachers. :loveya:

Adults are, IMO (and many others), far easier to teach than our youth. It takes education, empathy, and creative talent to keep pre-adolescent/teen students "attentive." The foregoing is meant as no disrespect to our youth ... they're just more challenging than primed to learn adults. :shrug:

[C_Lawyer09]

183. Unfortunately

It seems many non-vets presume that all us military types are authoritarian, and that all of our sometimes 20 plus years of learning took place in a basic training type scenario. Come on guys, some reality please? Some of the Special Forces troops, are the least authoritarian, and are not only tasked with teaching multiple specialties, but to many different language speakers. Come on guys, please attempt to refrain from pigeon holing vets. Please! For the poster who wanted to mention PTSD, what about the non-vet who is a criminal sexual predator, irresponsible, etc. What the hell is going on here? Troops to teachers is a good program, and contrary to much which has been said, is not screwing over great teachers whom have spent thousands on their education in lieu of hiring cheap and inept labor.

[tonysam]

47. School districts are run top-down like the mlitary, so why shouldn't

veterans find this now-crappy occupation of teaching desirable? Teaching used to be a profession where teachers expressed creativity, thinking skills, and the like but not anymore. You do what you're told by your supervisors. You never question your principal even if he or she harasses you or makes you violate the law or else you get written up or even fired. You haven't a prayer if you are a teacher who thinks for himself or herself.

[Dinger]

156. +1 tony

And thanks, again.:) :headbang:

[noamnety]

56. I don't understand the references in this thread to "a few weeks of training."

Admittedly I am not very familiar with the program, but here's what I found online: "Troops to Teachers Candidates must meet the same certification requirements that any other teacher must meet."

It sounds like it's basically a scholarship program, not all that different from the GI Bill. I've never heard someone belittle the education a vet got from using a GI Bill - it's the same education, just a different source of funding. If someone used the GI Bill to get a teaching cert, would that be a problem?

[tonysam]

57. It's short-term training and teaching requires YEARS

to get good at it, provided you have a principal who will allow you to have a career.

[noamnety]

63. Can you provide a link on this?

What I'm finding online is that it's a scholarship program, not an alternative to traditional teacher certification.

[tonysam]

75. It's actually like Teach for America

People get a stipend to teach in high-need areas, in a field which already has a massive glut, but veterans have to have a bachelor's degree or more to be in the program. It's the same requirement as TFA. In other words, it's an alternative licensure program for would-be teachers. These vets do not go through a traditional teacher licensure program.

[noamnety]

80. I asked for a link for a reason.

You are making some statements without supporting them.

The troops to teachers program is not a teacher certification program, nor an alternative program. It's a funding source.

"Troops to Teachers Candidates must meet the same certification requirements that any other teacher must meet."

http://www.tttga.net/

[proud2BlibKansan]

101. They take the courses while they are already teaching

That's one way it's different.

States are bending certification requirements to allow these interns into the classroom BEFORE they complete the coursework.

[noamnety]

104. No link?

I've asked repeatedly for a link on this, because it contradicts what the program is (a funding program).

Every time I ask for a link, I get a blanket statement in return with no source. We are doing a lot of this:

YES IT IS.
NO IT ISNT (cited source). Please cite YOUR source.
YES IT IS.
NO IT ISN'T (cited source). Please cite YOUR source.
YES IT IS.
NO IT ISNT (cited source). Please cite YOUR source.
YES IT IS.
NO IT ISNT (cited source). Please cite YOUR source.
YES IT IS.
NO IT ISNT (cited source). Please cite YOUR source.

At some point you lose credibility for not citing a source when one is requested.

[proud2BlibKansan]

117. Here's a map, look it up yourself

What if I want only to participate in an alternate route that has been specifically designed for people who decide they want to teach after getting a non-education degree and want to begin teaching right away?
http://www.teach-now.org/faq.cfm

And here is what one state requires:

MOTIVATION

To provide an avenue for entry into the teaching profession by individuals who have not completed a traditional teacher education program.

REQUIREMENTS TO ENTER

Bachelor's degree from an accredited institution of higher education
Minimum grade point average - 2.5 on 4.0 scale
Interview
Background check
Obtain employment as a teacher
Other - The candidate shall enter into a four-party contract with the recommending institution, the employing school district and the Department of Elementary and Secondary Education.

http://www.teach-now.org/map.html

Note the name of the website: TEACH NOW. As in without prerequisite training.

[noamnety]

130. "Teach Now" is not "Troops to Teachers."

That's in essence what I was saying - that I thought people here were confusing Troops to Teachers (a Funding Program) with alternative Certification Programs.

If you have a complaint about alternative CERTIFICATION programs, that's fine - just recognize it's a separate program.

[proud2BlibKansan]

136. Okay. I'll tell the veteran I am working with who is in TTT that an anonymous person on the internet

is calling him a fraud.

[noamnety]

147. I'm not calling him a fraud.

I'm asking for a link to the program he's in, because I didn't find information about it online. I wanted to read about it, maybe you could ask him for a link to the information if you can't find it.

And I pointed out that the link you posted is to a different program, not to TTT.

[proud2BlibKansan]

154. Yes you are

All of his paperwork is from TTT.

The link I posted was about several alternative cert programs. You seem to know so much about TTT. Why are you asking for a link?

[tonysam]

129. The kicker is states don't have to do this, and they shouldn't

given the fact there is a massive oversupply of teachers nationwide.

[janx]

58. I made the same point upthread and don't understand it either.

:shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

95. Here's why it's different

I had close to 100 hours of college credit including 30 hours in education and child development before I was allowed to STUDENT teach. And then only under the 4 month long supervision of a fully certified cooperating teacher. If she was not there, a substitute was brought in. I wasn't considered qualified to manage the class on my own and I wasn't paid a salary because I still had not graduated with an education degree and I had no certification.

When I was working on my masters degree, I had 10 years teaching experience in a different teaching field so I was required to be observed weekly by a college professor in my masters field. For TWO semesters. I also had to provide 6 letters of recommendation from administrators and teachers with masters degrees who had first hand knowledge of my instructional skills before I was awarded the masters degree.

Then I had to send the state money and a copy of my transcript along with a lengthy application to receive a temporary teaching certificate.

Compare that to 3-6 weeks of training in the summer and then being placed in a classroom with no direct day to day supervision. Not to mention not having to pay tuition for the training or the classes taken WHILE THEY ARE BEING PAID TO TEACH. The rest of us had to complete these courses - ALL OF THEM - before we were paid to teach.

That's not a scholarship program. It's an alternative certification program that isn't remotely close to the rigorous program education degree holders experience. Many of the universities here in my area now mandate a 5 year program for a bachelor's degree in education. Yet alternative programs cut that down to a few weeks of summer inservice??

It's a joke and it's degrading to the profession of teaching.

[noamnety]

107. Can you cite a source

verifying that Troops to Teachers allows military vets to complete a month or so of training and then teach with no supervision?


I suspect you are referring to some state run alternative certification program that is unrelated to Troops to Teachers, except that both civilians and military people are allowed to do that program.

However, because you aren't providing any links or documentation whatsoever, it's impossible to identify what you are referring to.

[proud2BlibKansan]

113. No I won't. And I am offended that you are calling me a liar.

[tammywammy]

115. Won't or Can't? n/t

[noamnety]

116. I'm not calling you a liar.

I do, however, believe you are misinformed.

1. Independent of the Troops to Teachers Program, some states have a normal and an alternative certification program.

2. Troops to Teachers FUNDING (it's a funding program) can be used for any existing certification program that a state runs, including the alternative programs that exist in that state.

3. I believe you may have run into vets using TTT funding to complete an alternative certification program, and erroneously assumed that because they used that funding, the alternative certification program itself was synonymous with the Troops to Teachers program.

4. A link to the specific program you are familiar with/referring to could help either verify your statements, or verify that it's a stand alone program that either civilians or vets can opt for.

5. I can understand where the confusion could come from, because it's conceivable that the vets themselves have said they are doing the program as part of Troops to Teachers, without taking time to differentiate the funding from the certification program - even though they are two separate things.

[proud2BlibKansan]

121. Now you are splitting hairs

trying to win an argument.

Once more for the slow group - I am a trained mentor in a public school district. All new teachers in my building work with me to complete state and district level requirements for beginning teachers. I sign off on documentation they are required to submit to the district and the state. I have seen their transcripts so I know exactly what coursework they have had BEFORE they are hired and placed in a classroom. And I know what coursework they are enrolled in while they are teaching. And I know what program they are in, such as Teach for America or TTT.

I am also required to spend time observing in their classrooms and assisting in lesson planning. Even the supervisors from TFA or TTT or whatever program they are enrolled in don't have as much knowledge of these interns' classroom skills as I do.

So yes I do understand what I am talking about. And I don't care what links you post, I know how these programs really work. I also feel qualified to offer an opinion on their effectiveness. But no, I don't have a link for that.

[tonysam]

131. That the point of it. It's supposed to be degrading to teaching

by making it no longer a profession.

[proud2BlibKansan]

134. It's cheaper

That's the reason these programs exist. To save money.

[noamnety]

93. Summary of thread

Of course democrats support the Troops! Of course we support veterans benefits!

(But we never forget they are generally right wing authoritarian assholes with the mental capacity of beavis and butthead, who should be prohibited from working around children. Sure would be nice if WE got all the perks vets get, lucky bastards.)



lovely.

I remember when we used to post up republican scorecards of how they voted for veteran benefits, and the consensus was that the politicians who didn't support vet benefits were assholes. We were proud that democrats DID vote on behalf of veterans.

[ShortnFiery]

96. With respect, please cease reading between the lines. Many of us have the

utmost respect for military veteran teachers. Some of us actually "perform such feats" albeit I'm only a Substitute ... hope to become certified in the future.

We are NOT your enemy. :shrug:

[noamnety]

102. With all due respect in return,

Those are the things being said in this thread. It's not reading between the lines.

People are saying vets are shitty teachers because vets in general are authoritarian assholes who are less competent in the classroom than nonvets with the same education background.

People are directly likening vets to beavis and butthead.

People are resenting that they don't get a financial benefit that veterans get - without an understanding that it is in part to compensate vets for a loss of years of seniority in civilian careers.

There is a lot of ugly stereotyping of veterans in this thread, presumptions that they only know how to tear people down and punish them.

There is also a great deal of misinformation by people who keep repeating wrong information over and over, as if repeating it again and again will make it more true. Specifically, there is a misrepresentation of troops to teachers as a way to bypass certification, which is specifically is NOT, by its own definition. It's a funding program, not a certification (or alternative certification) program.

[ShortnFiery]

105. You are behaving in an OVERLY hyper-sensitive manner.

? :( *narrative self-delete*

[noamnety]

109. Well, at least you aren't resorting to personal attacks.

:D

[ShortnFiery]

110. I'm not because I'm on YOUR SIDE. These are tough times and

we all should try to understand each other's perspective.

Of course veterans can be EXCELLENT teachers but they must pass the same certification requirements as others. That's all. :shrug:

[noamnety]

114. Yes, "they must pass the same certification requirements as others"

and that's written into the Troops to Teachers program requirements.

If we're in agreement on that, I don't know why we're arguing with each other. :shrug:

[ShortnFiery]

120. Good. We have no argument.

I'm NOT familiar with the specifics of the program so please excuse me (sincere) if I say half-baked stuff out of opinion and curiosity?

We are of the same mind. I think we just arrive at the same solution from different starting perspectives. Best regards. :toast:

[tonysam]

128. It's an alternative licensure program.

They are not taking the exact same courses an undergrad would take. Presumably these veterans would be done sooner with their studies.

Hell, in actual fact I had taken a sort of alternative licensure program because my undergraduate degree was in a different field. I took courses as a first time licensure master's candidate. I didn't take every course the undergrad education majors took, but I did have to take all of the same graduate courses regular master's degree candidates took. I also took ALL of the required practicum courses for licensure including regular student teaching for 16 weeks, but I doubt these veterans in this program have that kind of training before being thrown into a classroom.

It was a lot of work. Naturally, all of my efforts went down the drain because of my being wrongfully terminated.

[noamnety]

132. No, troops to teachers is not a licensure program.

It can be used to fund tuition at either traditional or alternative certification programs. You need to use the funds for an approved teacher certification program.

[proud2BlibKansan]

111. No one is bashing veterans

But since you keep bringing that up, let's try this: Instead of 6 weeks of basic training and then a few more weeks (sometimes months) of specialized training before being sent into combat, how about a program that is only one week of basic training and then the soldiers are shipped into combat while they complete the rest of the training when they aren't on duty?

That's how these alternative certification programs work.

[tammywammy]

99. +1 n/t

[Dinger]

142. Unrec, And I See I'm Not The Only One (nt)

[Odin2005]

144. Wow, a lot of hatred for vets in this thread.

Disgusting. Shame on you people :puke:

[LWolf]

152. Bullshit.

It's not hatred for vets. It's anger at the continuing denigration of teachers and the teaching profession.

[Dinger]

157. Wow, Even More Hatred For Public School Teachers And Unions

Disgusting. Shame on you people.:puke:

[Retired AF Dem]

158. If our public schools are doing such a good

job why are we ranked so low as compared to asian and european schools?

[proud2BlibKansan]

166. Could you post a link to the rankings you are citing?

Most of those can be easily debunked, and I'd like to see which ones you got your info from.

[tonysam]

168. Probably got them from the fraudulent A Nation At Risk,

which has been completely debunked and was with the Sandia Report back in the 1990s.

[proud2BlibKansan]

169. I have stopped arguing with these claims and ask for a link instead

And NEVER get one. It's sad. It has become a 'fact' that our kids are failing and/or are outscored by Japanese or Korean or European kids. Next thing you know they will be claiming the kids in Aghanistan outscore our kids and no one will question that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

160. This thread is not about veterans; it's about a teacher prep program for veterans

Perhaps you need to go back and read it again.

[noamnety]

162. Some of the generalizations were about vets themselves.

They are authoritarian, they are right wing, they use the classroom to indoctrinate kids, they only know to motivate through punishment, I wouldn't want them around my kids because they probably have PTSD, etc.

Those aren't critiques of TTT, they are critiques of vets.

[proud2BlibKansan]

165. A very few

That doesn't change the fact that the lion's share of the discussion is about the topic, which is veterans put in classrooms as teachers and their alternative certification program.

[Retired AF Dem]

150. I thought about being a history teacher after I retired from the

AirForce. After reading some of these posts I realize now that I wasted my life defending the rights of a bunch of assholes.

[tonysam]

155. It's not about vets; it's about shortcuts to an occupatoin

which should NOT have shortcuts to getting licensure. The job is very hard as it is for those who have gone through traditional or near-traditional licensure programs without having underprepared people being dumped into these lions' dens.

[C_Lawyer09]

184. Here is the basic link, there are many nuances according to state

http://www.proudtoserveagain.com/

For most states now in the downed economy, lateral entry is an extremely limited option. Most whom the 10k stipend would apply to would be math/science or special ed teachers, especially those who would teach in a poor or urban area.

[phasma ex machina]

174. +1 You ought to become a history teacher regardless. nt

[bridgit]

179. Why would anyone unrec this thread?

[liberal_at_heart]

186. I have a great respect for our armed forces but

I think teachers should have an education degree and preferrably a masters in teaching. We need to invest more money in our teachers so that we can afford to hire truly qualified teachers. I heard somewhere that we are one of the only countries that have more non-teaching positions in our school system than teaching positions. If we could cut out some of the administration positions maybe there would be more money to hire teachers with masters degrees.