I'm a "pro-business" Liberal.

[Atticus]

The "business" of this country, though, is not "Business".

The business of any nation must be the health, safety and welfare of its citizens. A government that is "taking care of business" is constantly monitoring the quality of the air they breathe, the water they drink and bathe in, the food they eat. It does what is necessary to insure that all of its people have reasonable access to health care, including "wellness" or preventive care.

It is the business of a society to see that its people receive all the education they desire and are capable of completing. No child who is capable of satisfactorily completing the courses should have to wonder whether or not they can pursue a degree.

It is the business of a conscientious government to see that its citizens not only have what is minimally necessary for their survival, but also what is necessary for their fulfillment as human beings. We should, as a nation, encourage less materialism and more spirituality; less conformity and more tolerance for "different" people; less concern with charitable deductions and more concern with true charity.

It must be our business to exalt the dignity of labor. We must make it clear that a ditch well-dug is more respectable than a building poorly designed or a mortgage vaguely worded. And, more basic than that, we must teach our children that, before they can be good teachers or doctors or carpenters or engineers---they must first be good people.

I'm a Liberal and I'm "takin' care of business".

[varelse]

1. K&R

[RufusTFirefly]

2. I'm pro business -- local business -- but anti-corporate

In a world where the business owner is a recognizable face that you see on the premises, a man or woman just like you, your neighbor not someone sequestered in some exclusive location hundreds and even thousands of miles away, the dynamic changes dramatically.

The local owner is less likely to dump toxic waste into the water that you both drink from, to be oblivious to the blight in your community or the people you both see each day who are sick or otherwise in need. Local business owners are more likely to want good local schools because you both send your children to them and to truly care about and understand the overall dynamic and character of your town or city.

[readmoreoften]

14. Unfortunately, they're not likely to pay better, be anti-racist or support LGBT workers.

My friend has a nice shirt: "unionize local business"

[wolfgangmo]

25. Speak for your company

Not mine.

We support all of those things in spades. I pay my assistants WELL above the average for this area. Most of them can pay the bills based on 2 - 3 days a week. No medical insurance but NO-ONE at our company can afford it including me, the owner.

[Winterblues]

20. You may be surprised at how many of those "local business" are in fact corporations.

If a business hires more than four people it probably is either an LLC or INC.

[RufusTFirefly]

21. Yes. Indeed. I realized belatedly that my use of the term "corporate" was too vague

I think it is the remoteness of large corporations that truly creates the problem. (Also, their absurd personhood.)

Thanks for calling me on this point, because you are right.

[Usrename]

3. k&r

:fistbump:

[beyond cynical]

4. If you are waiting for a government to do that, you will be waiting a long time.

<<<It is the business of a conscientious government to see that its citizens not only have what is minimally necessary for their survival, but also what is necessary for their fulfillment as human beings.>>>

Actually, it is up to "its citizens" to provide for these things.

[RufusTFirefly]

6. Ever been to Europe?

They understand something there that we don't seem to get. We are the government. At least we're supposed to be. And if government is out of sync with the needs of the people, you don't minimize government: you change the government so it better serves the needs and concerns of the people not the greed and demands of Exxon Mobile or Pfizer.

[beyond cynical]

17. The grass is greener on the other side syndrome...

While I have enjoyed my visits to Europe, I would not want to live there. There is less of everything and everything is much more expensive. Perhaps if I lived in that sort of environment, I would feel helpless and want someone to care of me as well; but I would be disgusted with living that lifestyle.

Since politicians will always take care of themselves before they take care of you or me, the powerful have and will always control the reins of government. So, don’t wait around for them to take something from your neighbor and give it to you, because your neighbor needs it to take care of himself.

[Atticus]

9. And, one damn good way for "its citizens" to provide for these things is to elect a

government that cares about the people for a change.

[beyond cynical]

18. My parents cared for me, but now I am a big boy and I take care of my children.

My responsibility as a parent is to teach them how to live their lives and take care of themselves, rather than to be resigned to a state of helplessness, waiting for an anonymous entity to provide for their needs.

[Atticus]

22. I'm sorry if you understood me to be advocating a "nanny state".

My intent was simply to advocate equal opportunity for fulfillment; not that government should be responsible for "making us happy".

[bvar22]

24. Tell that to THIS Democrat:

"In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens."

Now THAT is a REAL "Democrat".
Just curious, but do you know the author?

[Atticus]

28. Was that FDR? nt

[beyond cynical]

33. The same well meaning gentleman who interned thousands of US citizens

based on their heritage during WWII; thus, proving that people with good intentions can be wrong.

Don’t misunderstand, there is quite a bit that needs to be done to expand the opportunity base. However, when Logic 101 is applied to the concept of a right, it is clear that the right of one man cannot be something that requires the theft of another’s property.

[Lyric]

5. Hell yes! K&R.

:fistbump:

[bertman]

7. I'm a business owner and a pro-business liberal just like you, Atticus. Great post.

[Canuckistanian]

8. "BUSINESS? Mankind was my business! Their common welfare was my business!"

-Jacob Marley
Businessman

[C_Lawyer09]

10. I agree in large part with your post

Except for the portion citing, "people recieve all the education they desire, and are capable of completing". What? There are many avenues toward enabling those who desire an education, at the municipal, county, state, and federal level. I'd like to know the specifics of what you mean, when you say this. Especially considering, the overinflated value of an "education" and how it pertains to the current job market. I've never voted no on a school bond, I've contributed toward scholarship funds, but what you suggest sounds very unspecific and wasteful. I would suggest focusing on reform of our education system. I.E. ensuring high school graduates can find a job in the work force, analagous to the German and Japanese systems.

[Atticus]

11. There are people today who are unquestionably intelligent enough to succeed in college, but they

cannot afford the cost of any of the "many avenues" to an education. THIS is wasteful.

[C_Lawyer09]

12. Great, what college, what major?

Don't think that there is not a glut of college educated people here that can't find jobs. Consider all the current college students failing. Our economic and job problems have nothing to do with not educating our citizens. Seriously, are you aware of the multitude of programs out there? Most states will fund well performing high school students, this is to say nothing of pell, vocational, or other types of grants and scholarships. But again, what are we supposed to arbitrarily fund? If there is a need in the work force, there is likely an avenue. And as an Army retiree, I'll say this, which I'm sure you'll disagree with. Join the armed forces and use the G.I. Bill at 1,370 dollars a month for 36 months, or the Army College Fund for up to 70k. Our problem is not education, it is globalization. That said, there is a huge need for math science types.

[Atticus]

13. I'm sorry, We obviously live in different worlds. In mine---

---the sky is blue and rational people don't think that joining the army and fighting in WHATEVER conflict the current powers that be declare "necessary" should be the "cost of admission" to higher education. We also don't believe a "need in the work force" should be a determining factor in deciding who gets to study what.

[C_Lawyer09]

15. Funny

I made sure to mention myriad information before the military thing. Of course you bit. Sure, let's all go to college and study all manner of things, regardless of realities. Well the good thing about studying when you "earn it" regardless of method, usually equates to good scholars. Now, how about addressing questions above and beyond GI Bill? Remember Obama talked about serving in many different ways other than the military? Remember?

[Atticus]

26. Just a hunch, but I'd bet that Will Rogers never met you.

If you want to state your opinion about the glut of college-educated people who can't find work and how education isn't really all it's cracked up to be, go for it. Start your own thread. But, don't reframe my post, fill it with strawmen you created and then get all pissy-faced when I don't thank you for "straightening me out".

As you were.

[wolfgangmo]

27. Funny

You did mention myriad information before the military thing. And of course, either through plan or ignorance you failed to also mention that there are more students pursuing less and less money for college in terms of grants, loans, etc. The trend is clearly that a university degree is swiftly becoming too expensive for most average joes and janes to afford.

I was lucky because I had a scholarship but I had a talent that I had honed for decades. Most people are not so lucky.

[C_Lawyer09]

32. My point is, education without relevance

Or a sytem that leverages education that many sacrifice and work hard for is a waste. If you haven't noticed, many for profit universities are extremely over priced and dupe people into thinking that thousands spent will equate to job prospects. Many misinterpret my posts to be anti-education, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. In large part, many junior colleges are providing relevant skills, for a very reasonable cost. I wish the same could be said for the BA, MA, DOC, granting counterparts. I'll give you one example that I saw continually as an Army Recruiter. Students working to earn a BA in Criminal Justice, that didn't qualify for jobs as cops at the city, county, state or federal level. You'd think a counselor might have informed them before the 30k expenditure. The most apt program that I can think of is Powerplant Operator at Centralia Community College in WA. Partnered with business and govt. agencies, job placement is immediate upon graduation, sometimes concurrently.

[readmoreoften]

16. The vast majority of soldiers I talk to ONLY joined for benefits--particularly the GI Bill

I'm a university professor. Where is all this "funding" you're talking about. Because in MY world (which is the world of higher education--and I've taught in three universities) we and our students are brutally underfunded. Undergraduate degrees are particularly underfunded.

[C_Lawyer09]

19. So what

I've grown weary of the "Soldiers I've talked to" responses. I was selected to recruit for four years, and did so in two different cities, both of them extremely different. In other words, I don't need you to impart me with your wisdom as to why people join, reasons run the gamut. It only makes sense, that if you are talking to university students, a majority of them may have joined for different reasons. Should I be surprised that colleges are brutally underfunded? I'm brutally underfunded right now. You're probably well read, you know that wages have dropped. Pardon me, but I'm also not one that thinks everybody should be in college. Otherwise, a degree would be meaningless. I earned my BA through CLEP DANTES testing and through Marine Corps and Army tuition assistance, which is now 4,500 a year. I did it the hard way because I pissed away my opportunities in high school. I'm aware of five families I currently know that are utilizing pell grants. I also did a lot of volunteer scholarship and alternative financing work through the American Legion and Service to Mankind Organization. WA state will pay your tuition if you are a stellar student coming out of high school, as will (I believe) Oregon. Am I saying it's easy? No, but there are a shitload of opportunities out there if one is willing to look. I'm glad you have a job, I hope you are too. Apologies, for my shoot from the hip style, I've also grown weary of hunting down links and info to validate my point, for people, who in fact, really don't give a shit.

[wolfgangmo]

29. Washington might pay, oregon doesn't

And most states don't "pay" for college for academically bright kids. Sports heroes - yes. Music wonderkinds - yes. Most others - not so much.

So please take what some of us are saying for what it is worth - find the message and ignore the rhetoric. The fact is that many kids will only be able to better themselves and live up to their potential (meritocracy) if they make the choice to join the military. For the poor and many middle class this is now the ONLY way to get money for college/trade school/etc. but why is it the only way? It shouldn't be, or do you honestly think that because that is the path that you chose/were forced to choose, that it is the only viable path.

FYI - I agree with you that college is not for everyone - we need more apprenticeships. And frankly my plumber is a crook - if I didn't have to flush I'd fire the bum.

[C_Lawyer09]

30. I appreciate the response, which wasn't an attack

And, no I don't think it should be the only viable path. We'd do well to implement the vocational tie in that Germany uses, and some of the creative business partnerships that Japan uses. The key is making education job relevant as well as world expanding.

[bvar22]

23. In other words, you are the exact opposite of :

The DLC New Team

(Screen Capped from the DLC Website)

[Uncle Joe]

31. On edit, kicked but too late to recommend.

Thanks for the thread, Atticus.:thumbsup: