do you think health care is a human right?

[anarch]

I suppose this has probably been posted a thousand times, but I just felt like asking.

It seems kind of ridiculous, doesn't it? Health care a right. You might was well say that eating food is a human right or something, as if food grows on trees. This is America, dammit, and if you can't pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and turn your rags into riches, then you probably just aren't working hard enough.

[earthboundmisfit]

1. Here, I found this for you

:sarcasm:

Sometimes I forget it too :)

[StarfarerBill]

2. In a word: yes.

[TCJ70]

3. I don't know if I'd call it a human right...

...but I sure would like for everyone to have it.

[saltpoint]

4. Yes. It is a right.

[safeinOhio]

5. I see it as an obligation of any modern society if it is to call itself

just, successful and moral. I wished I lived in one that thought so too.

[Democrats_win]

6. Inalienable right to life, liberty,....Since HC is needed for life, it's a right.

[rhett o rick]

9. +1

[madokie]

56. +2

[Butch350]

63. ...and you can't have "HAPPINESS" if your sick.

[leftstreet]

7. The U.N. does

Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

[Spider Jerusalem]

47. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was in part written by Eleanor Roosevelt, btw

[intheflow]

64. Yea!

Someone else posted this before I did! I love it when people know international human rights law! :loveya:

[demosincebirth]

8. In a civilized society? yes.

[BeHereNow]

10. Absolutely, and so does every other civilized country in the world.

But WE must spend all our dollars on WAR.

Fuck! I am so pissed off right now.

BHN

[Lorien]

36. Indeed. Civilized societies believe in the concept of BEING a society

not just a loose affiliation of self centered mercenaries.

[maglatinavi]

11. health care

Definitely a right ...:patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

[derby378]

12. Careful...

There's at least one DUer who believes the statement "health care is a right" actually means "Insurance companies have the right to force you into buying their policies no matter how bad they suck."

[sandnsea]

13. Water, food, shelter, healing

Yes, it's a human right. The planet is designed to provide these essential ingredients of life. Just because these things aren't written in the Constitution, it doesn't mean people don't have a right to them. I think it was so self-evident, the founders didn't think they had to write it down.

[earthboundmisfit]

14. Yes

What it SHOULDN'T be is a LUXURY. And for a lot of us right now, it IS.

[maglatinavi]

rights

Of course eating food is a right, otherwise we wouldn't survive... what kind of question and statements are you writing ... are you one of those who believes in the survival of the fittest??? What about euthanasia for those who aren't the fittest??? Give me a break!!!
:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sabrina 1]

16. It's a right everywhere else. Americans are treated like dirt

by their government. But they put up with it for some reason, some even defending the abuse heaped on them in so many ways. Some of them, do so on this board, doing the dirty work of the greedy corporations for them, working against their own interests just to support some politician or another. Those people make it far more difficult for those who do not accept an abusive government, to do anything about it. I don't get it. Maybe they like being victims.

[cliffordu]

17. Yes.

[Raster]

18. It is in every other civilized country on the planet.

In the U-S-of-A, meh, no so much.

[Uncle Joe]

19. Yes on two levels, as per Boehner's Constitution; aka Declaration of Independence

"We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

You may not live or pursue happiness if you're ill or injured and you can't get health care.

Per the Preamble (spirit, ideals) of the real Constitution; that would be the one that "We the People's Government" swear an on oath to uphold and defend.

"We, the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish the Constitution for the United States of America."

A nation can't have a "perfect union" if it's citizens are left to the wolves of for profit "health" insurance gamblers in determining whether they will receive health care or not, live or die, that would De Facto make the nation sick or injured. Leave no child behind, leave no Marine behind, leave no sick or injured American behind.

Furthermore the definition of "welfare" is "The state of being or doing well; the condition of health, prosperity and happiness; well being. I contend the United States can't live up to it's stated goals of promoting the general welfare by allowing a predominant for profit "health" insurance industry to exist, they're mutually exclusive and contrary goals working at odds against one another.

Thanks for the thread, anarch.

P.S. My post doesn't take in to account international statements regarding health care as a human right.

[L0oniX]

20. yes

[Odin2005]

21. The UN does. n/t

[gleaner]

22. Yes it is ....

I have both MS and Diabetes at the same time. The two medical conditions tend to antagonize each other at times, and I get very sick. Sometimes too sick to do much except lay around and stare into space. But then I think of all the people who do that by preference and I don't feel so bad.;)

But back to the point, if you are not healthy enough to pursue some kind of life or if you are dead other more idealistically lofty human rights don't mean very much. If we were given "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," as our basic rights of existence how are we going to pursue any of them if we are too sick to think or have passed on to the place where we are taking a long dirt nap?

[diplomat5]

23. Yes

Yes, of course

[RufusTFirefly]

24. Absolutely! Just not in the U.S. of A. Inc., a Time-Warner Corporation. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

25. If rights exist, health care is a right. nt

[anarch]

that's an interesting condition

I heard a guy say, "unless you're holding a machine gun, you don't have any 'rights'," which is pretty cynical...but another way of saying it is, I suppose, if civilization exists, then it is a right. And moreover, perhaps, a responsibility of any sufficiently advanced society with the resources to do so, to provide it for all its citizens. In my opinion.

[phasma ex machina]

39. "remind [Mark Antony] to keep his legions intact. - They make the law legal." - Caesar

in the movie "Cleopatra."

[donheld]

26. Yes!

[ecstatic]

27. Governments should provide health care for their citizens

It's the moral thing to do.

[tblue]

28. Of course! It's elementary, my dear. nt

[tblue]

29. Delete dupe.

[roody]

30. Yes.

[onestepforward]

31. No doubt. Yes!

[notesdev]

32. No it's not a right

Something that requires someone else to provide something to you by definition cannot be a right.

Otherwise you end up with logic absurdities like saying a person stranded alone on a desert island is being denied fundamental human rights by nobody.

Is it the proper, good and just thing to do to care for people who are sick? Absolutely.

But rights are self-contained. Look at the list of rights in the Bill of Rights: expression, belief, association, self-defense, self-determination, and then a list of "freedom from" things that others might do.

The problem when you call something like health care or even food a "right" is that it at some point becomes a license to enslave or steal from others, which can't be reconciled with the fact of those others also having rights. If you have a "right" to health care, that must necessarily mean the ability to force someone to provide it to you whether they like it or not.

[Uncle Joe]

34. Do you mean like the right to have a public defender paid for by the state?

Which arises from the VI Amendment of the Bill of Rights.

"The problem when you call something like health care or even food a "right" is that it at some point becomes a license to enslave or steal from others, which can't be reconciled with the fact of those others also having rights. If you have a "right" to health care, that must necessarily mean the ability to force someone to provide it to you whether they like it or not."

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

43. We appear to be talking about two separate things here.

First there are things that we should think of as intrinsic human rights (freedom of speech, religion, etc.) Those are what I would define as "human" rights.

Second, there are rights conveyed to individuals who are to be subject to the rules set down by the state. In other words, people subject to the rules of the system have certain rights within that system. This would include things like the right to a public defender.

To give another example, when I was working in the UK and got laid off, I had a statutory right to challenge the employer's decision and request consideration of alternatives to my being laid off. That was a right conferred upon me by their legal system within the context of my employment. It was a right that I had, but I wouldn't classify it as a "human right."

So perhaps a more useful question would be to ask if health care is a right. Currently it is not (except in some places that have defined it as such.) That doesn't mean it can't be MADE into a right by an act of the government, but it's not an intrinsic human right.

[Uncle Joe]

45. Yes we are speaking of two separate things, my post #19 expressed my belief as to the ideals which

support the basis as to why health care should be a human right and I left out any international mention; just using domestic documents.

My post that you just responded to was directed at post #32's logic of using the Bill of Rights to argue against the idea of health care as a government right. A doctor would be no more forced against their will to treat patients than public defenders are to represent defendants, and in both cases they would be reimbursed by the state.

To my way of thinking universal health care or Medicare for everyone should be a government right, it's not specifically spelled out as of yet but I was arguing against the logic of it not being done so.

Post #32 "The problem when you call something like health care or even food a "right" is that it at some point becomes a license to enslave or steal from others, which can't be reconciled with the fact of those others also having rights. If you have a "right" to health care, that must necessarily mean the ability to force someone to provide it to you whether they like it or not."

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

50. Just to clarify...

using the Bill of Rights to argue against the idea of health care as a government right.

I'm not sure what you mean by "government right." My point was in essence that health care could be made a right under our current system, but that I don't think it really qualifies as an intrinsic human right. So it'd be useful for you to describe what you mean by "government right."

Don't get me wrong, having lived in England for four years I'm a huge fan of single payer health systems, but I simply think a distinction ought to be made between intrinsic human rights and (I assume) what you are calling government rights.

[Uncle Joe]

60. A better term for what

I used as government right would be societal right. I believe we should make universal health care a societal right, while it's not spelled specifically out that way now, I believe the logic of doing so would be consistent with the rest of the Bill of Rights and the ideals of the Constitutional Preamble. This is in opposition to poster #32's point of view.

I also go a step further than you, I believe health care should be an intrinsic human right.

Having said that, I consider that point of view an ideal and I'm not under the illusion humanity; in general has evolved to that degree yet.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

61. OK, it sounds like...

...what you are referring to as a government or societal right is pretty much the same concept I refer to as a societal obligation - namely that if a society has the resources to provide for health care of all its citizens it has an obligation to do so. As for whether it's an intrinsic human right I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Which is not to say that I don't respect your viewpoint - I do.

[Uncle Joe]

62. Likewise,

peace to you, Cessna Invesco Palin.:hi:

[Lorien]

35. Wow, I know a far Right wing whack job who says exactly the same thing

I hope you won't ever produce offspring, since children have no "right" to care by your definition.

[notesdev]

37. "serious discussion"

another thing there is clearly no right to

Is there a stake or something I should tie myself to for taking a serious approach to the question?

Or did I miss a "Jerk Knee Here" sign somewhere?

Never mind, it was silly to me to think this thread was about anything but rah-rah cheerleading... carry on as you were

[Uncle Joe]

38. Do you call this serious?

"Otherwise you end up with logic absurdities like saying a person stranded alone on a desert island is being denied fundamental human rights by nobody."

[anarch]

54. well I, for one, enjoy it when there is actual discussion in these forums

and I take your point, although I think it's a semantic one more than anything else. You are making a distinction between the "right to freedom from having others violate your person/property" and "access to conveniences afforded you by the society you live in", which is fair enough.

It doesn't move me from my position that a society that aspires to any kind of decency should not deny access to such conveniences (as long as they exist--i.e. the society has the resources to provide them) to anyone based on age, gender, sexual preference, chronic illness, or economic status. I think everyone in such a society should have equal "rights" to such access. But I take your point.

[TCJ70]

58. +1

I agree. It's not a right, but it is a right thing to do.

[bridgit]

33. I think humans have understood it as shared & basic since very early men & women...

Very early; arraigned flowers and artifacts into the graves of their loved ones. I think that if early peeps would have known of medical care much past setting bones, an herb or two and a moss & aloe patch they'd have used that knowledge to ease each other's suffering and physical pain. But I think less that it is a 'right' as many often think, handed down by some powdered wig dudes that we may or may not have

I think it's the human thing to do - and if that constitutes our right to it then so be that

[niyad]

40. in the documentary "black wave: the legacy of the exxon valdez"

a sociologist who is working with the inhabitants of prince william sound talks about "social capital", and says, "if we can't trust our government, if we can't trust our courts, if we can't trust our institutions, we have almost no social capital left"

like the rescue workers of 9/11, the clean-up crews of the exxon valdez disaster are suffering and dying, often without insurance, without health care.

is health care a right? yes, in a civilized society. would be nice to live in one. I, for one, am sick of our social capital, as well as the monetary kind, being spent on death and destruction.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

41. No, it's a societal responsibility.

Any society sufficiently capable of providing health care to its members should do so, but that's not the same thing as a human right.

[AllenVanAllen]

42. It's a right for our seniors, it should be for everyone.

Frankly, the selfishness exhibited by many Americans on this point makes me sick.

[Libertas1776]

44. Hell YES!!!

Heck, there are a number of countries out there from Germany to Iraq that have this human right enshrined in their constitutions thanks in part to the USA! God, we can make sure others have it but we can't do it for ourselves. It's such bullshit. I wish we could could have a Prez who would pick up the torch left by FDR who had hoped to make this human right a reality for every single American. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6641277

[Greyhound]

46. Of course it is.

Excluding the Radnian ravings of the suicidally deluded or those that profit from the misery of others, humanity in general acknowledges this.

[Joe the Liberal]

48. Duh? n/t

[aquart]

49. Doesn't our constitution say "promote the general welfare"?

I would say, based on that, that it is certainly an AMERICAN right. Unfortunately, the Norwegians, French, Canadians, English, all of bloody Europe and pretty much everyone BUT Americans have it.

It is our national shame.

[LeftishBrit]

51. Yes.

And it is mentioned as such in Article 25 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights:

Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing *and medical care* and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

[defendandprotect]

52. yes --- and I think money has corsrupted most of our medicine . . .

[Daphne08]

53. Yes, it is a human right! n/t

[earth mom]

55. Yes, health care is a right. nt

[LWolf]

57. Yes. nt

[ConnorMarc]

59. Yes

A thousand times...yes.

[kctim]

65. Nope

and thankfully, our founders did not believe in pushing their morals onto others.

[FiveGoodMen]

66. If we want a civilized society, then yes.

[Union Yes]

67. Allow me to answer as clearly as I can. FUCK YES! knr nt

[varelse]

68. I want to say yes

my "intellectual honesty" won't let me do it :(

I can't see having the right to force anyone else to do anything for me. I just don't see it. NOW, if you're talking about "taxation without representation" and we can discuss how every person living here is a taxpayer (sales tax counts, people!) then I could get into it.

We have a right to direct that our taxes pay for what every human being *should* have, including health care. But why stop there? Education, housing, security, food, breathable air, safe drinking water, votes that are actually counted - that's what I want to pay for. Why is all of that considered "too expensive" while trillions handed to defense contractors, merceneries and the Wall Street elite is merely "the cost of doing business"?

[Ken Burch]

69. Health care, higher education and housing should be rights

If you have to struggle just to get those things, you don't really have much hope of actually gaining any ground in life.

No one should be forced to scratch and claw simply to survive. This degrades all-those who are subjected to it, and all who impose it on them.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

70. Given we no longer

live in caves, have to fear predatory animals and have the ability to put a man on the moon, I'd say yes! :)

[Tim01]

71. No.

We should give everybody in this country access to health care, we have the ability to do it. But it is not a right.

[neshanic still]

72. Absolutely.