Shhhh, let me tell you a little secret

[nadinbrzezinski]

there is outrage in this country, but we are so damn divided that it is tea baggers against loonie liberals.

And this is dandy for those who run the show. Well there is the makings, (possibly that is) of a third party or worst. People are fed up. There is also the makings of a movement to change things. So I will speak heresy. Try to find common ground with the other side, because there is common ground. Oh and that is not the politicos. Those, they have something in common with the ones on our side... not all, but enough to stem any real changes.

There you have it...

There is a class war and we are losing.

[leftstreet]

1. It's not a class 'war' if we're not fighting back

Looks more like a Ruling Class Occupation to me

[Electric Monk]

2. Zombies

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/theater/22fela.html


/Colbert

[Le Taz Hot]

19. Just FYI.

Your link goes to an article relating to some dance troupe. :shrug:

[Electric Monk]

33. I guess you didn't see Monday's "The Colbert Report". It's a new Broadway show

about class warfare, and the rich using some of the poor to keep the rest of the people poor too.

[intheflow]

92. Not everyone has cable.

Or even a tv. Context is a beautiful thing.

[notesdev]

3. That's what I keep saying

we need to see the teabaggers as allies against an establishment elite gone hog-wild. We get set against them and vice versa, and who benefits? Neither group benefits, the elites run off with all the money and laugh at us for taking the bait.

[NNN0LHI]

6. You are willing to become allies with a bunch racist asshole teabaggers to get what you want?

Have you lost your mind?

I hope you all get whats coming to you.

Don

[notesdev]

7. There's common ground

Look at what's real, forget the rhetoric.

What's real is that the banks are raping all of us, and our alleged "representatives" are making it happen.

Spend your energy fighting teabaggers, and you're the best friend those banks could have. Any good distraction from what they are doing serves their purposes.

Even teabaggers get foreclosed on.

[NNN0LHI]

9. Let me know how them fleas feel biting on you after laying down with them dogs

[notesdev]

10. It's a good analogy

In terms of priorities, I'm more concerned about the pit bull gnawing through our leg. We can worry about fleas later.

[tavalon]

11. This is a time honored strategy

We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately. Benjamin Franklin

Yes, I find aspects of their behavior odious but they are being played as surely as we are. The only way to win is to stop fighting each other. This is class warfare and we are being distracted into hating one another instead of the ruling class.

[nofurylike]

74. it is as if they are gathering in the edges they've been fraying

for years here. seems coordinated, to me. as if someone said "go."
they know we are heartsick, and they have been agitating that despair more forcefully every day now.

oddly, they will put more into urging us to surrender than they will into the hard work of urging our legislators to do what we elected them to do ( - OUR job in participatory democracy).

do they also fully-well understand that in this current form of limited democracy, every attempt at forging successful other major parties only *always* benefits the ruling/moneyed class?


thank you for standing up to this, NNN0LHI and others on this thread who are doing so.



peace and solidarity

[NNN0LHI]

93. I knew we had some teabaggers running around here

Glad to see them self identify. I got their numbers.

Take care nofurylike.

Don

[nofurylike]

94. very good point!

thank you, Don. you take care too.


peace and solidarity

[KrR]

41. What common ground?

What specific policies do you agree with Teabaggers on?

[Le Taz Hot]

14. Not all teabaggers are racists.

What an absurd suggestion. Let me give you an example. Remember the marches against the IWR? In a few cities the anarchists decided to disrupt things and act like bad little boys and girls. What did the MSM media focus on? The anarchists. Did they represent the vast majority of peace marchers? No. Do you think POSSIBLY that the MSM is doing exactly the same thing to the teabaggers? Really. Think about it.

[NNN0LHI]

16. Did you forget Dick Armey is their leader?

Is he not a racist asshole?

Hope you and Dick have a great time together.

Don

[Le Taz Hot]

17. When the hell did I become buds with Dick Armey?

And why don't you try replying to what I actually posted or are you only capable of binary thinking? If so, let me know now so I don't waste anymore time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Have you ACTUALLY tried engaging tea baggers?

I went to one of their rallies, as part of billionaires for wealth care, and while you had the ten percent of loons... you also had a few who were willing to ACTUALLY TALK. Ever think that perhaps you think of the 10-20% who you can never reach and not the Majority that are reachable and do have some common ground?

Perhaps you are the 10-20% on our side that cannot and will never find common ground with the enemy, and you see your enemy as other working class people... not the real enemy.

Jeezus age, there are days...

[varelse]

38. The ones screaming threats and shouting down representatives at the town halls?

riiight. Let's have a conversation with those folks. NO thank you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Yeah like our side has never, ever done that either

RIIIIIGGGGGHHHHTTTTTT.

THere is genuine anger there... and while you will not be able to talk to about 20% of them, I guess you are in the 20% of our side that cannot build bridges either.

[varelse]

108. Theirs is a manufactured, tailored revolution

Billionaires for Bush, they're NOT.

[nofurylike]

80. well said. thank you, varelse. nt

[KrR]

44. How do Teabaggers want to help the working class???

WTF!!!!!

[nofurylike]

82. well said, KrR. thank you. nt

[newspeak]

28. but the teabaggers

were actually corporate created. More Faux media created than a grassroots movement. I believe they are more water carriers for the corporations. If they were so worried about the Constitution, they would have been forming under the previous administration, who loved using the document as TP. To me, they are artificially grouped to be the corporate (insurance industry) mouthpiece.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Yes but it would not be the first time

than an astro turf created movement bit them in the ass.

Study your US history... because the anger is real. That is what they tapped into... now how do you reach the troops and turn that anger against those who are manipulating them?

[anonymous171]

50. In America you need to a diverse political coalition if you want to win

ESPECIALLY if you do not have the benefit of large corporate sponsors.

[lildreamer316]

95. United we stand; DIVIDED we fall.

:shrug:

[NNN0LHI]

96. Go ahead and unite with those assholes

See where that gets you.

Don

[rucky]

24. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7006728&mesg_id=7007012

[notesdev]

25. Glad to see I'm not alone

I agree with every last thing you said in that post.

We do need to stand against the corporatists with whoever wants to join in.

We do need a third and fourth party to break up the two-party (IMO one two-faced party) cartel.

And we need to keep a very skeptical eye on those who would keep us locked in to a system that clearly works for nobody but a tiny, tiny few.

Sign me up.

[varelse]

37. I see teabaggers as tools of an establishment elite gone hog-wild

Teabaggers are just astroturf to me. :shrug:

[formercia]

4. Divide and Conquer.

It has worked well for Millenia.

[Echo In Light]

5. The upshot is, the grand illusion spun by the ownership class is dissipating quickly

And once social/ideological control can no longer be maintained by smoke & mirrors and "democracy" fairytales, those sectors, and those who aspire to be like them, will be forced to show their true colors, which will only increase the numbers of those who openly oppose corporate rule.

[RadiationTherapy]

8. To paraphrase Mr. Colbert (from his book)

If the working class made any sudden moves, it wouldn't be a class war, it would be more like a class massacre, or 'classacre'

[Duende azul]

20. 'classacre' - is that word copyrighted or are we free to use it?

[RadiationTherapy]

21. Colbert uses vocabulary in this way often; I am sure it would be fine.

No lawyer am I, though.

[Le Taz Hot]

12. Look out!

I tried to propose the same thing a couple of months ago and got POUNDED! (Like I give a shit.) But my point still stands. The teabaggers are also out of work. The teabaggers also can't get affordable health care. The teabaggers are also being sold out by Congress and the Administration whether it be R or D. We DO have common ground and that is that our elected officials are bought and paid for the the corporatocracy. The only difference is the color of the pom poms.

Rec. before the Party before Country cheerleaders begin bombarding you with unrecs.

[coyote]

15. Hear Hear!

We have a lot more in common with the tea baggers than our elected representatives. This is all about divide and conquer. In the end, the tea baggers and us have the same enemy. This is an opportunity.

[Tailormyst]

23. They keep us busy voting on social issues.

As long as we are focused on social divides we will continue voting them into office. They and the corporations get richer. We the people are left fighting with each other.

[asdjrocky]

13. There's been a class war since 1981 at least.

And we're not losing, we lost.

[nashville_brook]

18. that Alan Grayson and Ron Paul can team up against The Fed, is evidence of this.

and, i've been thinking the same thing you say, for a while now.

i'm really against a third party option -- rather, i'd like to see a REAL populist democratic movement. all the years i spent in the mountains in Tennesssee i learned a lot about this left-right simpatico. many of the mountain folk who've voted GOP for decades were FDR dems back in the day. they're populists -- fierce populists -- and the far right of the GOP had that dialogue mastered for many years. hopefully that will change. i know that it's possible.

keep your eye on Grayson, i think he's on the right track.

[chill_wind]

34. Audit the Fed-- enjoys broad bipartisan support

At the Congressional level

http://www.auditthefed.com/cosponsors/

but at the grassroots level too.


A Coalition of extremely unlikely bedfellows

http://www.auditthefed.com/view-the-coalition/

I suspect there were equally resentful numbers-- on both left and right main street-- on the bailout politics
(giveaway without reform/regulation).

(edit just to add-- I like Grayson a lot.)

[KrR]

46. Alan Grayson is for the latest Healthcare reform proposal tho... n/t

[Tailormyst]

22. If people would start thinking about what is right for themselves and their community...

instead of voting on wedge social issues, I think we would see change. Both parties realize all they have to do is dangle social issues in front of themselves every election cycle and people will come out and vote for them, regardless of what they actually do in Washington.

I came to realize this as of late. I vote for Dems because they tell me they are on my side when it comes to social issues and the Republicans tell me they are on the exact opposite side so I can never vote for them. But when it comes down to it, they get back to DC, have a good laugh all the way to the bank and promptly forget those social issues until election time rolls around again. Both parties are doing it. We the people fall for it every time and nothing changes for our good. The rich get richer, the jobs are bleeding away, foreclosures, poverty, homelessness, health care (not insurance)and we give those in power a good laugh.

I don't know what the answer is, I just know we have to wake up, as a people, before its too late.

[GoCubsGo]

26. May I re-state your subject line?

If people would start thinking for themselves...

The bottom line is that too many in this country don't think for themselves. It's easier to just believe what they hear on TV or read in some idiotic chain e-mail. Forget fact-checking. Even a visit to snopes.com is too much effort. It's why the wedge issues work so well. And, I'm starting to believe that it already is too late.

[Tailormyst]

27. of course

And I agree. People just believe without thinking. I see it in my parents, both very intelligent and good hearted people, being brainwashed by their priests in a way I never saw when I was young. They are pressured every week to vote the way the church wants them to and their faith is used to beat them slowly into submission. Add to that TV and radio filled to the brim with propaganda and the result is not pretty. There is no way to combat it. Even the truth is not enough to wake people up. If it is not what the powers that be are telling them then it must be a lie. They are brainwashed into voting over gays and abortions and against the interests of themselves, their community, their children, grandchildren, friends and neighbors.

[KrR]

42. They are not intelligent and good hearted by your description.... n/t

[Tailormyst]

98. Yes, they are.

Even good and intelligent people can be swayed by a lifetime of propaganda.

[Subdivisions]

31. I agree there is common ground. I despise some of what they espouse. But, I think

you are right. So, what actions can we take to build a bridge between them and us so that a line of communication can be established?

[galileoreloaded]

35. It sounds like they are already here and listening....

:shrug:

[nofurylike]

85. here and posting even! agreeing with :shrug: nt

[KrR]

43. What common ground? n/t

[showpan]

32. I agree

we need to overlook the fact that the tea baggers reasoning is false because their agenda is close, they want to end the socialism. If we can refrain from throwing Bush in their face, I know how hard that is...lol...we can gain them as allies in our struggle to take this country back from the neocon corporatist fascists who took it from us. The opportunity is there right now because they are bickering amongst themselves as they are being led by false leadership. If we were to organize a movement, such as they have, using the same techniques that have made their numbers swell, then we could easily unite for a common purpose. We must first shed the arguments that are dividing us and stop throwing "facts" in their faces...lol
Who is ready to do this and start the ball rolling, timing is of the essence and ours is running short.

[KrR]

45. Are you calling Pres Obama a neocon corporatist fascist? n/t

[Shell Beau]

36. As much as we are divided amongst ourselves as dems, we

need to remain as united as we can because come 2012, we NEED it. Even if we aren't happy with some of the things Obama has done, it could have been McCain doing much worse. We need to remember that every chance we get.

[nofurylike]

86. well said, Shell Beau. thank you. nt

[HillGal]

39. I've said this before, and no doubt moderates don't like it, but aside from

differences in ideology? the left and right have a lot in common, they're the ones who set the agenda during the primaries, they not only donate but they spend the time volunteering, walking door to door, then on election day the moderates come out in force and they don't do a damn thing but vote. The left and the right hold on tight to their ideology while the moderates swing with the wind, last year they swung to the left, this past election and looking into 2010 they're swinging right. The moderates infuriate me more then those whose ideology is opposite of mine, at least I know where the extreme on the other side stands, the moderates are too wishy washy.

[Number23]

47. And how do you feel black Democrats will feel about this?

The teabaggers who cannot disparage my community enough; who think of every black man as a potential criminal and every black woman as a borderline welfare queen. Do you think that we, the black community, THE most loyal Democratic base (even though Lord knows I have often wondered why), should "make alliances" with teabaggers?

What about Hispanic Democrats who are constantly questioned openly by teabaggers if they are in this country legally, even if they are third or fifth generation born Americans? What about Arabs? Muslims? Non-hysterical Christians? Educated, ambitious women? Should we all seek to find common ground with people who with everything they have wish we were not even allowed into this country and would do everything they could to be rid of us?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

53. Yep.

The 99.9% white teabagger rallies aren't exactly friendly to Latinos-which happens to be the fastest growing voting bloc.

We look at those rallies and it's pretty clear what is going on to us. If progressives show up there, it will only serve to push us away from progressives as well as away from dipshit conservatives.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. Been at a rally

billionaires for wealth care my darling, great street theater.

And yes, you have the minority who are very loud, very obnoxious, very racist, and very unaproachable... those are not the folks we are talking about aproaching.

But the middle of the road, who is angry and is willing to work to change things in DC and who came because well at lesat they are doing something (and in this particular rally, clear media channel advertised it 24\7)

The minority... you will never reach. THey are the ones who came from the local nazi party meeting... (And yes we do have them here locally) And to be honest you don't want to either.

[Number23]

66. Well, after you've sorted out the good'uns from the bad'uns, just let the rest of us know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Translation I am not willing to do the work

and change will happen in spite of me... and will go... please Sir, can I have more?

[Number23]

110. If that's your definition of change, then I'm praying that yes it does happen in spite of me.

You need to read and then re-read SemiCharmed's excellent post. The type of foolishness you're advocating will only push minorities further away from the progressive cause. But seeing as how you have just referred to Obama as "the messiah," I'm starting to see the "common ground" that you feel that you and a few progressives have with the teabaggers. And what's really sort of funny is that in this regard, it is YOU who are in the minority.

[nofurylike]

87. well said, Number23. thank you. nt

[autorank]

48. We're losing for now. k*r

:hi:

[ZombieHorde]

49. Don't forget, people who try to make peace get shot. nt

[Mithreal]

51. Late kick, agreed

[Greyhound]

52. Creating a platform that would be acceptable to both sides would be quite a challenge.

Where to start?
:kick: too late to rec.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Here is a place to start... no, not the stupid social issues

NAFTA....

Tarriffs...

Tax the rich....

Medical health care... well there is this medicare for all (don't expect that one to gain traction with the establishment, but those going don't take over my health care and leave my medicare alone will get it)

[SemiCharmedQuark]

59. Tax the rich? Good luck selling that one.

NAFTA and tariffs would probably fly. But not taxes. Sorry.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Because the average right leaing

not fanatical attendee really likes the rich, and US HISTORY has never, evah seen high taxes on the rich...

:sarcasm:

By the way, nobody is talking of trying to coopt the far right fanatic who is also a member of the local nazi party... thankfully those are not the majority.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

64. No. Because the average person has a tendency to think that taxing the rich is bad because

one day HE will be rich. Doesn't matter if the person is living in a 200 sq foot, roach infested studio apartment. People feel that one day they will be rich so they may as well start protecting their money now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Wrong, that thinking is pretty much dead

and there is anger in the country. Not just me saying it, or noticing it.

Here is a hint, when BOTH sides talk of revolution, something fundamental is going on...

Now if you care to keep divided... by all means, do so.

But unlike you, I actually have engaged some of the people who do attend a tea bag event... as part of street theater. And yes I met the cartoon of the right.... the racist punk who hates them lib'ruls, and thinks that a good lib'rul is a dead lib'rul, but I also met people (more than the cartoons by the way) who are simply FED UP. They are waiting for leaders... and they will follow whoever seems to be working for them. And one thing I heard plenty off was faux right wing populism from the speakers... why not give them then real thing?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

70. Progressives have been talking about revolution since FDR. Teabaggers only talk about it when a Dem

is in charge. That is the only thing that has changed.

Do as you will, but be prepared to do it without the help of minorities who, for the most part, loathe the teabaggers. As the saying goes, you lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas. You let racist dipshits into your group, and you let them be the FACE of your group and people assume you are a racist dipshit too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. First off, I AM a minority

funny thing

And an Immigrant...

Second off... the revolution talk in the 1930s drove the need for the New Deal. It was a WIDE SPREAD feeling ranging from oh Father Coughlin (who was against FDR and a racist) all the way to the leaders of the Socialist and Communist Parties... not the same critters either.

Third... we have had a fringe on the right planning revolution for a long time... or did you not know of the John Birch Society? (1950s and 60s), Or the militias? (1980s and 90s)

I am not talking of that fringe, I am talking of popular anger... learn the difference, because this popular anger, if tapped, is closer to the 1930s than the 1980s or 1990s.

And I can tell you this... the leaders, rotten to the core. Worst case scenario there is a 30% closer to the Militias and the Birchers, but you have people attending who are NOT part of that and are just plain out pissed... but they hear of the Tea Bag Express Rally, not the local Peace March... care to ask yourself why?

Oh never mind... caricatures work best.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

73. Are you one of the minorities that constantly crops up on the charming signs of the teabaggers?

Come to Pilsen with that "Let's join the Teabaggers!" talk. See how that goes.

People who attend rallies sponsored by known racist Glenn Beck and Dick Armey are not our friends. I would never attend any rally sponsored by either of them, no matter how much I believed in one small sliver of what they were saying.

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. Google this

Billionaires for Wealth Care... it is called STREET THEATER, to make low info voters go HMMM, time to start asking questions.

And buy a clue while you are at it.

While you refuse to talk to the normal folks who went to that rally becuase gee golly, they hate me... (and some do)... the power structure laughs all the way to the bank.

And since you are curious... I have a pretty thick accent. And yes, it is EASY to tell I was NOT born in this country. I guess I overcame my fear, and did what needed to be done.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

83. The teabaggers don't hate all immigrants, only certain "undesirables"

And yep, I am not going to join forces with people I have next to nothing in common with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. Keep thinking that way

the elites will continue to laugh all the way to the bank.

Look, how cute, the house servants are fighting again... Quick lets get them less jobs and take more money to the bank...

Will they notice?

Nope, too busy fighting each other...

By the way, them racists (some where there) hate ALL immigrants... I know... I have challenged them in the past.

Sounds more like I might learn that the cartoon is not that real... mind you some aspects of the cartoon are... but far less than you think.

[nofurylike]

90. well said, thank you. nt

[nofurylike]

89. yes. thank you for standing up, SemiCharmedQuark. nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

81. Actually, the current line about taxing the rich is that

the rich need all the money they can get or else they won't provide jobs. That line of propaganda plays on the public's ignorance of how corporations are taxed and their ignorance of history. (Our period of greatest economic growth coincided with our highest personal and corporate income taxes.)

[Raine]

54. "Divide & Conquer" we're all

being scammed, more and more I see all of us are being played. x(

[stevenleser]

55. This is reality ignoring, I'm afraid.

A similar sentiment on OEN garnered this response from me:

...we see the few politicians whom the Teabaggers have thrown theirsupport thus far. The Republican candidates in Congressional District 23 in New York and for Senate in California and Florida are not Right Wing enough for them. The current incarnation of the Tea Party/Teabagger group demands the furthest right candidates available. These candidates are specifically approved by the Rush Limbaughs, Glenn Becks and Sarah Palins out there.

They are anti-choice, anti social programs like Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, they are against things like unemployment, they are against things like education grants to go to college, they are against the government providing any sort of medical coverage or guarantees to its citizens, they are against the government regulating business in any way. They are against the governmenttrying to mandatea minimum wage let alone a living wage. They are against the government trying to enforce any environmental standards or protections.

This is to what Progressives should align themselves? The one thing progressives get from someone who is Libertarian like Ron Paul is that there would be no overseas military adventurism. Even that, considering they would have to give up the entire rest of the Progressive platform,would be a terrible bargain. Teabaggers are not anti-war at all. The candidates they support are not anti-war. So Progressives would get nothing. Again, why is this good for Progressives?

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Those chosen are the ones chosen by the leadership

but I have the sneaky that if you tried to aproach the one that went there and said, you know I want tarrifs back and no more Nafta, you'd find agreement. Now the candidate... no... and up to 20% no.

I am talking of the other eighty who are also low information voters. Perhaps it is seventy, but you know what I mean.

Oh and the California candidate, I can tell stories about that guy...

[stevenleser]

61. They are polling even or outpolling the Rethug candidates. The leaders can only vote once

Rank and file teabaggers are driving up the polling numbers of those folks.

[stevenleser]

65. Furthermore, you think trying to invent common ground with teabaggers is better than

trying to work to create some with Obama?

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. Oh I am sorry, Obama will save us, since he is the new messiah

here is a clue for ya. I elected a President, not a leader. I will hold his feet to the fire when needed and applaud him when needed. But I will not prostrate myself before the new god... I will leave that to the true believers... read Frank on that by the way.

I also know that if I want change, I need to create that... this means a MOVEMENT... and no, historically movements are not succesful when coopted by either major political party.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

75. And there you go. The good ol' "Obama is the Messiah!" meme.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. Ye are the one saying what you are saying

by the way there are things to applaud him on... the economy, for many reasons...

Things to be more than just critical on... health care, the wars...

And things that we will see if they work.

And yes, you are the one thinking that he will save us, not me. I know US history and I know that RARELY Politicians lead...

[hileeopnyn8d]

107. I suspect

with that meme you can also find clues as to what "common ground" they have.

[stevenleser]

99. Wow, did you reach for that one. Sorry I took you seriously. You definitely didnt deserve it

Wow.

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. Sorry that you realize I have zero respect for any cult of personality

whether that is on the right (Bush) or left (the current CiC)

I elect Presidents, and I will not defend them blindly or fall in line. That is for followers to do, NOT CITIZENS.

You should try that sometimes.

As to taking me that seriously, the fact that I am an American first shocks you? That is telling about YOU, not me buddy.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

58. I'm curious as to what common ground people are talking about.

Hatred of the government?

Clue: Teabaggers only hate Democratic governments. Unlike progressives, they had no problem with the Bush government.

So the idea is: Join up with a group of racist nutbags (in the process alienating significant quantities of minorities), take down the Democratic administration, be shocked when the Teabaggers and Republicans join up to get a RW administration going (the way Steele through his support behind the teabagger) and then spend the next generation wondering what the hell went wrong.

[stevenleser]

63. Exactly. I dont see why we are even discussing this at DU

I would say that what is being discussed is a Faustian bargain but even Faust got something initially so this Teabagger alliance flirtation isnt even as good as that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Because even people like I don't know Thom Hartmann

have noticed this, and if you want change you need a MOVEMENT... and there are some things that we all have in common.

Keep going the way you are... I know that people are waiting for the revolution, well that change you were promised is US.

[cali]

79. Oh, yes. Hartmann worship. He's just infallible.

there couldn't be a group of people that progressives have less in common with than the teabaggers.

[nofurylike]

97. well said, cali. thank you, again! nt

[nofurylike]

91. well said. thank you, stevenleser. nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

77. The GRASSROoTS right and left agree on the following issues:

1. The bank bailout. Both thought it was too large and needed to have conditions attached

2. Export of American jobs. Only the corporate elites like that.

3. Depersonalization of relations between businesses and customers. EVERYBODY hates calling a company with a question or complaint and being put on hold for 20 minutes or getting the runaround in phone tree hell.

4. If we're going to have wars, the veterans should be better taken care of.

5. There's too much of a gap between average earnings, which are stagnant or falling, and consumer prices, which are rising, despite the fact that so much is imported from China and other low-wage countries. (The gap between earnings and prices is one reason that calls for tax cuts resonate so much with the uninformed.)

6. Dislike of the MSM. Both sides think it's biased (although in different directions.) Thoughtful people on both sides find it trivializing and crude.

7. The feeling that no one in Washington cares about the average person.

Unfortunately, the right-wing media have caricatured the left so long that there's a lack of trust, and the yuppie variety of Democrat tends to make snide remarks about "hicks" and "trailer trash" in talking about working class Republicans.

In fact, when it comes to the grassroots level and we disregard behavioral and cultural issues, there is no left or right, just up and down.

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. I might quible with a few points or add others

but you are correct.

And in the meantime the tea baggers see the cartoon presented by the media of the other side. Either a shiftless anarchist, or just a shiftless liberal... who is a limo riding, latte drinking elite, with them furiegner ideas.

And the left sees a bunch of country hicks... and who wins?

:-)

Why I said the anger is deep... and wide spread... only if we can get some sort of unity...

[stevenleser]

101. You are reaching. I've never heard any Teabagger sentiment against 1, 3 or 5

and as for the rest, Teabaggers would fight government intervening to solve any of those issues. Again, where does that leave anyone on the non-right wing side of the spectrum.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

103. How many Teabaggers do you know?

:shrug:

Or are you just going by what you see on TV?

You can't START by shouting slogans at someone. If you really want to change minds (and not just win fights), you have to figure out where the person is coming from, sympathize with what you can, and work from there.

Sometimes hard-right people are just frightened of the way the world is going and therefore susceptible to anyone who will "explain" it to them, whether the explanation makes any sense at all.

Sometimes, yes, they are just mean cusses, and there's not a lot you can do about them.

But the types who are basically followers are relatively easy to win over, at least on certain points.

As far as Points 1, 3, and 5, the online comments in my hometown paper would say differently. The usual right-wing suspects threw cyber-fits at the bank bailout, even the one Bush proposed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. And the bank bail out is still a sore point

in the rallies.

I know, we went there as part of Billioanaires for Weatlhcare, fine street theater... but uuh boy... that was one of those damn it them commies (both Bush and Obama) are saving the banksters.

I guess some of the folks here are like the key board commandos on the other side. Quite happy with them cartoon characters.

:-)

On the down side, the other side has many that are also content just thinking the other side, that is us, is a cartoon as well.

[stevenleser]

111. Dozens n/t

[Overseas]

100. Warren Buffet told us as much in 2006

Mr. Buffett compiled a data sheet of the men and women who work in his office. He had each of them make a fraction; the numerator was how much they paid in federal income tax and in payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare, and the denominator was their taxable income. The people in his office were mostly secretaries and clerks, though not all.

It turned out that Mr. Buffett, with immense income from dividends and capital gains, paid far, far less as a fraction of his income than the secretaries or the clerks or anyone else in his office. Further, in conversation it came up that Mr. Buffett doesn’t use any tax planning at all. He just pays as the Internal Revenue Code requires. “How can this be fair?” he asked of how little he pays relative to his employees. “How can this be right?”

Even though I agreed with him, I warned that whenever someone tried to raise the issue, he or she was accused of fomenting class warfare.

“There’s class warfare, all right,” Mr. Buffett said, “but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/business/yourmoney/26every.html

[lib2DaBone]

102. Correct.. this is class war on the highest scale... and then what happens to a society...?

What happens to a society where the returns on increased effort ,hard work and sacrifice drops below
zero percent?

The middle class disappears and the Society collapses.

Trickle down, stay the course, endless war, big bankers, corrupt politicians all wrapped in the flag and carrying a bible... that is where we are at this very minute.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

109. Oh dear god...here we go with the Alex Jones stuff.

[walldude]

112. Bwhahahahahahahaha

I'm really sorry I don't have the time or patience to debate this load of bullshit. I will say however that it's you who needs an education. And that you are right we are never going to get anywhere shoving all those pesky facts in other peoples faces. It would be easier to LIE.

[showpan]

114. Sadly, you are in denial

and any educated person would see that the same noecon policies are being advocated by the same neocon administration. You don't stand on solid ground for such a debate. The Democrats have been taken over by the noecons with same party line policies all wrapped up in a new bow.
The story you are about to see is true, the faces have been changed to protect the not so innocent....lol

[Armstead]

113. I agree to an extent...For many, their anger is based on the same conditions that anger us

Most people do not like big abusive institutions and concentratrions of power. That is at the heart of the teabagger movement, just as it is at the heart of progressive populism.

The underlying non-ideological fact is that wealth and power has become too concentrated in too few hands. As a result, the government has become a tool of corporations and oligarchs.

Many teabaggers would agree with that statement. Some teabaggers are brainwashed right wing goofballs. But others are simply average people who are outraged by the same conditions that outrage us.

Their analysis is flawed because they see the government as the core of the problem, while we on the left see corporate power as the core of the problem.

However, bottom line is that we have allowed a matrix of wealth and power to form that is ruining society.

The teabaggers are reacting against that, just as we are. The common opponent is the upper class oligarchy.