I don't see any plan to help renters

[taught_me_patience]

I see a lot of help for homeowners:

Ben "helicoper drops of money" buying every trashed out MBS and intervening on the long end of the bond to artificially drive interest rates down
Tax deduction of mortgage interest
Loan forgiveness not counted as icome on 1040
Tax credits for purchasing a home
"Cash for Caulkers"


I guess renters continue to get shafted.

[Robb]

1. If it helps

...Renting is the only sane thing to do right now. I wouldn't buy a house in the next few years even if I had talk show kind of money in the bank.

[vadawg]

14. depends mate, i sold on the high end and just happened across the place i wanted on the low end

so i paid a lot less than i was planning to pay on a place i loved and i got paid a lot to sell a place i hated so it can work out well....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Doesn't all the stimulus spending not directly involved with homeownership...

help renters along with everybody else?

[taught_me_patience]

11. So you're admitting home owners get thousands in direct benefits

while renters get trickle-down scraps?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. I wouldn't refer to the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act as trickle-down scraps.

But frankly, your complaint reminds me of rich people whining about poor people getting welfare, or Katrina victims getting rescued.

Hey, if you want to go out and get benefits for being a homeowner- you're welcome to go out and get a home that you're totally unqualified to own, lose gobs of money, and then get some sort of partial benefit.

If you're looking for some sort of stimulus benefit that specifically helps renters like, I don't know, making your renters insurance tax deductable then I guess you're shit out of luck.

[bettyellen]

50. home owners get full benefit of that PLUS have their home purchase subsidized by renters

[laughingliberal]

38. Few homeowners have gotten any help and there are far more who need it than will ever get it

Meanwhile there was a law passed, mentioned already, that helps renters who were being thrown out in the streets when the owners of the buildings in which they were living went into foreclosure. Did you hear about that? People were renting and unaware the owners had been foreclosed on. All of a sudden they would get notice they had like a week to mover. A law was passed now requiring the new owner (generally the bank) to fulfill the terms of the leases of those living in the building. I'd call that help.

[taught_me_patience]

54. I outlined five ways homeowners are getting direct taxpayer help

in my original post.

homeowners get thousands of dollars in taxpayer help per year.

[laughingliberal]

70. Then feel free to jump right in here with us and get all these goodies for yourself

The upside for everyone when homeownership increases is that a strong housing market spurs building which is still one of the industries that provides decent jobs and keeps the economy humming. The dead stop in the building trades is one of the major factors in the high unemployment right now. I didn't buy my first home til I was 50. Now I wish I hadn't.

[mdmc]

3. poor working people always get the shaft ($ for clunkers)

at least we get scraps!

[grasswire]

4. well there is that new law allowing renters of foreclosed homes...

...to stay in the house for 90 days after the bank sells it on the steps of the courthouse.

Small comfort, that.

[Buzz Clik]

5. Renters pay less, and they carry NO vulnerability.

You can walk away from a rent -- even a huge rent -- and not be faced with hundreds of thousands of owed mortgage.

[taught_me_patience]

9. You'll be taken to court if you break your lease, though.... n/t

[Buzz Clik]

86. Most leases have the penalties of breaking the lease built into the contract.

It usually involves paying an extra month or two of rent.

[EndersDame]

60. Renters pay more in my opinion

[Buzz Clik]

85. Yes, in the long run renters are generally better off. They have short term flexibility, like now.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

6. What are renters losing in the housing crash/current economy?

Could you clarify a bit what exact type of aid specific to renters the federal government should be considering?

[EFerrari]

10. Their homes when their landlords go belly up.

But if it's any consolation, it is a renters' market right now.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

13. True enough there

There is a provision now which lets them stay in the home after foreclosure for (I think) 90-days. Which helps a bit.

You're right about it being renters market. I just went through finding a new rental with my daughter and I was awed by the choices she had and how much more reasonable the rents were now. Considering the limited number of choices she has in the job market after graduating college this month, we were glad for every little positive thing.

[EFerrari]

18. My mom went through this debacle with WaMu

over one of her rental properties. One office was processing a loan mod and another one was starting a foreclosure.

It was horrible and especially for her tenants. These @ssholes don't care how many people they displace with their sloppiness.

/oops

[YOY]

15. Really only criminal if there is no advanced warning IMHO.

Give folks a few months fer crying out loud. I've heard so many nasty stories about renters getting the boot because some dippy landlord didn't say anything.

Otherwise...nothing ventured nothing gained.

[taught_me_patience]

17. So homeowners get thousands in benefits

subsidized by me, the taxpayer...


and I get some warning that I'll be kicked out?

Seems fair!

[YOY]

21. and we get a shitload of risk and debt...legal responsibilty of property...

Seems really fair actually.

Stop complaining until you know what you're complaining about. Nobody is shitting on renters. It's two different situations. If you want to try and buy and see how much better it is then buy something in your range if at all possible. It's not a bed of roses. It's kind of a pain actually.

[taught_me_patience]

23. So you really believe that the thousands in subsidies that homeowners receive

from the taxpayer vs. nothing renters receive is fair? I guess people can justify anything in their minds.

[YOY]

25. Yes. completely fair. From someone who has both rented and bought.

It's only not fair when housing is so incredibly unaffordable (thanks to predatory loans or simple geography) and there is no housing for folks who earn a working income.

But please...don't let me stop your victimhood. If buyers have it so fucking great then please...save up and buy. It's not all you think it is.

Oh those subsidies...like manna from heaven!!! Let's just laugh at the renters dahling like proper welfare queens!!! :sarcasm:

[taught_me_patience]

29. I'm just sticking up for DU renters

Seems like most homeowners here on DU don't give a shit. They think its fair that renters don't get any benefit from the government, even though their more likely to need the help.

[YOY]

31. We do give a shit. You just don't seem to understand that owning a home is actually harder.

It is. I have rented and owned. Owning IS HARDER. It is a shit load harder. You have to really care about the place. Pay the bills. Take care of it.


Frankly as a former renter I don't see what helping renters out (unless they are recently unemployed from the shitty economy...but that is another care altogether) has to do with anything but giving something for nothing. It's a renters market now. I see rents cheaper than 4 years ago. Seem to keep going down too.

Unless you think helping homeowners is some free Government Cheese or something...sorry...you're not legally obligated once the lease is up at the end of the year. You are not tied to the place at all. You can collect your security deposit and forget about the place as if it never existed.

[vadawg]

34. lol you think the renters care about the homeowners either

in some ways they are natural enemies, i want to rent my property to you for as much as i can get and you want to pay as little for as much as you can get. Its like cats and dogs, mortal enemies.

[Pithlet]

47. Homeowners. Not landlords. n/t

[dysfunctional press]

37. definitely. renters don't pay property tax, for one thing.

they don't have any of the liabilities that homeowners have, and fewer expenses to worry about.

it's absolutely fair.

[kiva]

63. Renters don't pay directly, but of course we end up paying

property taxes through our rent. People who are long term landlords (not those who are forced into the role by temporary circumstances) are business people who seek to make money, and they certainly aren't going to charge renters less than it costs them to pay the taxes and maintain the property.

The bottom line is that renters (like childless adults)are not on the radar of politicians think their supporters are all homeowning families, so they make no attempts to make nice to us.

[dysfunctional press]

68. no- renters pay rent. the landlord pays property taxes.

i can't get over how many people make that insipid claim.

renters ARE NOT paying property taxes- they are paying rent on the amount of space they are renting, nothing more. how the landlord comes to the price they are charging is irrelevant. market forces determine how much rent a landlord can charge- not his personal expenses.

taxes are an expense of the property owner, NOT the renter.

[kiva]

73. And does the landlord factor in the cost of taxes into the rent

he charges? How about upkeep/repairs? Of course.

Your argument that renters don't pay taxes assumes that the landlord pays these expenses without passing them along to tenants, which is untrue.

Do renters pay property taxes to the county? No. Do they pay rent factored on the amount of property taxes the owner is liable for? Yes. And market forces may determine rent, but no landlord will choose to lose money for long - they will either raise the rent, sell the property, or allow the lender to take the property - which is why so many renters have been tossed out when their landlords choose not to tell them about property foreclosures.

[dysfunctional press]

82. the area housing market determines the rent, not the owner's expenses.

if the going rate for a one-bedroom apartment is $400, a landlord can't charge $600 just because his expenses might be higher.

tenants pay for space. period.

[Pithlet]

24. Yep.

We did everything right and still seriously got burned. We're okay only because we don't plan on moving. But if we had to move any time soon, we'd lose big. I find it odd that some are resentful of any help that some may be getting.

[YOY]

39. I commented to my wife just how screwed we'd be if we had to move.

We lost easy mobility the moment we bought.

[vadawg]

40. dude secret is to buy in various markets then you have the mobility

even if its just land you can park a trailer on...

[YOY]

42. Easy if you have the liquid assets to do so.

First time home owners seldom have more than the down payment on that first mortgage...I know we did.

[vadawg]

43. yup but thats why its a long term plan and then at least your kids can have the options

[YOY]

91. Funny...my parents didn't seem to give too much of a shit.

With what my grandparents left me and our meager savings we had enough for 10% in this area. It's no NYC but it's not cheap. We bought for investment in a safe neighborhood...but it's tiny.

On the flipside we have an apartment halfway around the world in a small Eastern European city too. I miss our "second home".

[Pithlet]

44. Yeah, it's just that easy. /sarcasm

Life is a sims video game, where you can click and decide where jobs, family, etc. are located. Just like that! They'll always be in the choice markets.

[bettyellen]

48. 80% of first time buyer have parents that help w/ downpayment- hence the easy peasey entitlement

that you see on this thread.

[vadawg]

51. lol yeah because saving and going without and buying property is so hard

jeez if thats what you believe then your never going to get ahead...

[bettyellen]

62. you're a fool if you think buying property in the NYC area is so easy. not all of us wanna live in

east butt fuck. and yeah, look up the stats on first time buyers- it explains a lot.

[vadawg]

71. and your a fool to think that everyone wants to live in NYC

some of us are happy to live in east butt fuck and own our own land and have room for shit like boats and horses and hunting.. some people would rather live out here and be able to own a second home or third home and not have to contend with an apartment in a crappy building just so we can live in NYC

[bettyellen]

80. but you are the fool who assumed thatanyone frm NYC 'd be willing to move to nowhere

just so you could have lots of stuff, and spend your days shopping at walmart and watching cale tv.
have fun, we have an actual civilization and culture going on. and the majority of american who reside in cities disagree with your prefences too!

[vadawg]

49. yeah it is that easy if youhave a plan and you stick to it, who says you have to live in the choice

markets, and i guess it depends on what you consider choice....

[Pithlet]

52. Yeah. Just having a plan and sticking to it. The rest are lucky ducks, right? n/t

[vadawg]

55. lol okay then you just keep working to your plan and ill stick to mine..

[Pithlet]

59. lol yep im sure your plan is working out fine after all this is the internet

lol how would we know?

[EFerrari]

19. Some dippy landlord (and I know, there are many) may be getting

completely opposing signals from their lender. The bank approves a modification and with their left hand, they foreclose. It's seems to be happening all over the country.

[LisaM]

87. It takes a lot of money to go find another place

Most landlords want first, last, and a deposit - that can easily get into the thousands. Most renters don't have that kind of cash around - or they wouldn't be renters.

There were plenty of people who bought houses they knew they couldn't afford - yes, I know that the banks financed them - which priced most renters out of the market. In the meantime, rentals became scarce and rates jumped. The people next to us had short term notice that their rent was going to go up by almost 65% a few years ago - landlords felt that they could get that. And they didn't give them all that much notice.

I just wish that buyers had not forced prices so high. If I'd made an equivalent wage to what I make now when I first lived in Seattle, I could have afforded a house. However, in the meantime, housing prices went up by about 300%. Salaries, of course, did not. It was made worse by people moving here from places like California who felt no compunction paying too much for a house - it seemed cheap to them. Not to mention the high tech crowd who were getting windfalls from stock sales.

Of course it's all crashed now, but small comfort for some of us who wouldn't have overpaid, but have always been left outside of being able to buy a house.

[taught_me_patience]

20. I think renters should be able to write off rent on income taxes

after all businesses are able to do this as an expense of doing business. Owners are able to write off the interest payments, which is basically the "rent" from the bank

[Lone_Star_Dem]

22. You do realize that if rent were deductible there would be no home owners, right?

Why bother paying taxes, POA fees and maintenance on a property when you can just rent and get a tax write off.

[taught_me_patience]

27. Equity appreciation.

Stable payment.
Eventual payoff.

The only reason to own a home is for a tax writeoff?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

28. What? Where in the world did you come up with that from?

I said if a renter were allowed to deduct their rent there would be no home owners. Why put up with all the expenses of owning a home if you can rent and deduct the rent off your taxes?

As for equity appreciation, stable payment and eventual payoff. They still wouldn't offset the financial gain one would get from renting. So why would anyone take on all the headaches of owning a home?

[vadawg]

easy, when you own your own property then you can pretty much do as you like

as long as you live somewhere thats not batshit insane rules. You dont need anyones permission to hunt, shoot, burn shit, grow shit, tear shit up with atv's etc etc etc... screw renting and having to conform to someone elses rules...

[laughingliberal]

74. Really? I'm going to try a little hunting in front of my house and see what happens

Then I'll try burning a few things. I'll get back to you with how that works out for me.

[taught_me_patience]

32. Prices will stabalize at a market price

where owning and renting will be nearly the same cost... where it has been for most of U.S. history, before all the tax breaks for home owners. Then, appreciation will occur due to inflation and rising wages.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

35. And how exactly is this making your argument that rent should be tax deductible? nt

[laughingliberal]

67. Not much equity appreciation going on these days so good luck with that

My state is #2 in foreclosures and #1 in negative equity.

[laughingliberal]

30. The property taxes paid by homeowners fund a lot of the services in their area to which renters have

access. Often police, fire departments, road maintenance and plowing, libraries and support for the school systems are provided by property taxes. Property taxes are usually based on the value of the home. Foreclosed homes sold low at auction will be taxed at a lower rate. Other properties in the area will lose value and their property taxes will go down. Less money for the county to provide services. Renters have access to the same services that homeowners do but homeowners are paying the bulk of the bill. Here's your help: they aren't sending you a bill for using the services for which they pay.

[taught_me_patience]

33. Property taxes are indirectly paid by the renter. n/t

[Zynx]

36. And utility bills are either directly or indirectly paid, depending on the agreement.

The is relatively little difference except for who owns the equity, when one thinks about it.

[laughingliberal]

41. To an extent but I guarantee you a renter paying the same amount in rent as a homeowner's mortgage

is not bearing the same tax burden. If a person is renting an apartment for $1000 per month the portion of their rent the owner is using for taxes is not as much as a homeowner in the same area is paying on a house valued at $150,000.

[bettyellen]

45. you realize if your tax breaks disappeared the market would adjust and buying would be more affordab

able. and renters would stop subsidising these homeowners. which sounds fair to me. it makes no sense to me to penailize people whos parents couldnl
t (like 80% of first time buyers) give them big help with a down payment. this is another thing the govt does that help sthe poor stay that way.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

53. I get zero tax breaks for my residence. Nada.

So you may want to regroup there. I wonder sometimes where all the supposed tax breaks are supposed to be that uninformed people thing all home owners get.

[laughingliberal]

57. The early years of a mortgage there is some tax benefit when the payments are, mostly, interest

After a few years, it doesn't amount to much. Not enough to replace the roof or dig a new well. And, as the house increases in value (not an issue right now) the property taxes go up.

[bettyellen]

58. either your residence is paid off or you need an accountant-because you shld get a break on interest

a very big break.
and most hosuing experts claim what I did - the market will adjust so people can continue to buy.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

78. Yes, my home is paid for with no mortgage.

I've never had a mortgage on my home and never got tax breaks for the purchase of my home. Not every home owner gets tax breaks as is often assumed.

As for what you said in regards to the rest. What does that have to do with what I was talking about previously? You mistakenly thought I was a recipient of tax breaks for home owners and that I was defending tax breaks for home owners. Neither was the case at any point in my discussion.

[laughingliberal]

56. Well, my parents didn't help me. I bought my home in 2005 and I was 50 years old

Had been working my ass off as an RN for 23 years and had never owned a home. Scraped our downpayment up the old fashioned way, financed a conventional, 30 year fixed rate with verifiable income and all the rest. Husband's business went in the toilet with the housing market in 2006. Lost my job in 2007, just after my husband was diagnosed with cancer. Will probably lose our home.

As for the tax break, it was one of the reasons we decided it made sense to buy as rent in the area was about as high as a mortgage. In the end, it didn't come close to being enough to offset the costs of ownership. I only wish we had kept renting.

[LisaM]

7. Renters are very disrespected in this economy

and no effort is made to control rents or assert tenant rights in most places. Seattle is not the least bit of a friendly place for renters. In-city rents are horrendous. And it's not just residences. Business rents have skyrocked so much that many small businesses have just called it quits.

[laughingliberal]

46. Everyone is very disrespected in this economy except the guys who stole all the money, set up this

house of cards, and then took our money to save themselves. Bickering between homeowner's and renters, races, genders, political parties, coffee vs tea drinkers, smokers vs non-smokers, fat people vs skinny people, etc...is just a distraction to prevent us from organizing against the people at the heart of the problem

Carry on.

[Pithlet]

65. I agree. I think more should be done about that.

I'm not sure why it has to be a renters vs homeowners battle like the OP makes it out to be, but I agree with you. More needs to be done for them, too.

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. If home ownership opens up, renters will be helped by decreased

demand for rentals - that means rents will go down.

A couple months ago when my apartment rent got a hike I considered trying to bargain it down, but researching current rents found it would cost more to move than to pay the rent hike; because people aren't buying, but have to live somewhere, rentals are less readily available and are more expensive - people used to paying 3k mortgages don't mind paying $1400 for rent, and that is driving rents up.

Now, with luck, people will start re-occupying those houses, making more rentals available, and landlords will have to start dropping rents to get people into them.

[laughingliberal]

26. True. nt

[Toasterlad]

75. Ah, the "Trickle-Down" Theory of Renting.

Good times or bad, I've never seen the price of an apartment go DOWN. Only UP.

[RaleighNCDUer]

92. I have seen them go down, once or twice - usually when the economy

is booming (that's why it's only been once or twice) and landlords are desperate to fill the space.

When the rent does not increase for three years, despite inflation, that is a decrease in rent. When a landlord offers 'first month free' or 'move in now, no rent till (whenever- six weeks off)' that is a decrease in rent.

If rental properties are sitting empty for months, they are losing money - better to cut rents and offer deals than to pay taxes on properties that are not generating income.

That happens when there is a really strong housing market.

[LeftHander]

16. The guy who owns your building will get help....

when you fail to pay your rent and get kicked out in the street.

[kestrel91316]

61. Renters are slackers just one rung above welfare recipients to some folks.

[EFerrari]

66. It's bizarre because most people rent.

It's like all the people who believe they are in the middle class income bracket who aren't and who sneer at working people. :crazy:

[mistertrickster]

64. I noticed that too--some great deals for homeowners. But if you're trying to

get a good job so you can buy a home, you're SOL.

[laughingliberal]

76. If you're trying to get a good job so you can save your home, you're pretty SOL these days, too nt

[LeftHandPath]

69. Or savers, those on fixed incomes...

At .5% interest a year on savings, there is no reason to keep your money in a bank.

[taught_me_patience]

77. Savers and fixed incomes are getting screwed too

by Ben "Helicopter drops of cash onto wallstreet" Bernanke, whose mission is to reinflate the housing bubble.

[Toasterlad]

72. No One In This Country Cares About Single, Childless, Non-Homeowners.

Unless you're living to pump out more consumers for the almighty corporation, you aren't worth shit.

[laughingliberal]

79. No one in this country cares about most anyone these days. If you're working class, you're screwed

As I've already stated, any of these squabbles here in the bottom 99% of the income ladder are just a nice, little distraction to keep us from getting our shit together and organizing against those who stole all our money and our labor without us sharing in the benefits.

[tjwash]

81. You know what? You really don't know what you are talking about in the least.

I get to write costs and depreciation off on my fucking taxes...big whoop.

You want to switch places with me for a few months and see how you fare? I own a couple of condo-properties that I rent out to some very good tenants. The tenants pay me rent to live there, and I charge right at the going rate for the area.

Out of that, I have to pay...

1) The mortgage. (Rent covers maybe 2/3's of that)

2) The HOA dues. (They just upped those 10 percent starting January)

3) The water and sewage bill for the properties. (Because they are both in an HOA and the county will not bill the tenants, only the owner).

4) The property taxes (going up 1 percent again this year).

5) The maintenance costs (just kicked out a little over 2500 dollars to replace a gas furnace this month)

6) Property insurance and fire insurance. (Those just went up by 10 percent because of the fires in California)

Out of what I receiver in rent from the tenants monthly, I can cover maybe two-thirds of the mortgage on a particular property. If you total up the dues, water/sewage, property taxes, and maintenance costs, insurance, etc...it runs me twice what my tenant is paying me in rent to keep my folks happy, the bills current, and the place in good condition.

Plus...the tenants can leave with 30 days notice any time they want to and go anywhere they want to go. Think that an average homeowner can just get tired of a place and just trade it in for a different one because they feel like living somewhere else?

Piss and moan like a whiny, little spoiled brat all you want...but all you are really showing everyone, is that you really have zero clue what landlords go through, and do, almost daily for their tenants.

[Bluenorthwest]

83. You do all that so that you can eventually profit, not 'for your

tenants'. The business they give you is what allows you to buy those buildings, which you wanted to buy, in order to profit. You attitude is full of it. You are in business, in order to profit. And unlike most business people, you are whining about your own life decisions. Amazing.
Here is a truth for you. You do not 'own' those buildings yet, you are buying them. Using money you make using the buildings. But if you are paying mortgage, you do not own those buildings. You are buying those buildings, and it seems that if it were not for your good renters, you would not be able to buy those buildings at all.
Amazing.

[laughingliberal]

84. "whining about your own life decisions"

I believe this thread started with someone whining about their life decisions, specifically, renting. Then whining cause someone got a lollipop and they didn't.

[taught_me_patience]

88. Wrong. In my OP, I did not whine about my life decision

In fact, if you read, the OP, I didn't even state whether I own or rent a house. I'm just pointing out the direct taxpayer funded government support for owning a home.

[laughingliberal]

90. Ok, whining cause people who did make that decision aren't being helped

I have a great idea. Let's just go back to the days when only the very wealthy can own their own home and there is no middle class and the working class barely scrapes by on crumbs. Oh, wait, we're already back in those days. never mind...

[RaleighNCDUer]

93. So you are in the rental business for the opportunity to lose money?

I'll have to call bullshit on that. The whole concept of renting property is to make money - therefore you charge slightly more rent than the aggregate costs of maintaining the property, allowing you to pay for the property and make a little profit.

Anything else is either a very bad business plan, or bullshit.

[Synicus Maximus]

89. When I was renting and my water heater went out I picked up the

phone and told the office it was broke and I wanted it fixed now, it was fixed. No muss no fuss. Now that I have a house if the water heater goes out I have to buy a new water heater and hire someone to replace it.