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The Big Question: What is the Rosetta Stone, and should Britain return it to Egypt?

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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 12:46 AM
Original message
The Big Question: What is the Rosetta Stone, and should Britain return it to Egypt?
Source: The Independent UK
By Cahal Milmo, Chief Reporter


Image is in the Public Domain

Why are we asking this now?

Dr Zahi Hawass, the secretary general of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities (SCA) and the high priest of all matters archaeological in the Land of the Pharaohs, arrived in London yesterday to further his demand for the return of the Rosetta Stone from the display rooms of the British Museum, where it has been on show since 1802. Dr Hawass has embarked on an international campaign to secure the return of a host of renowned artefacts which he claims were plundered by colonial oppressors and assorted brigands from Egypt's ancient tombs and palaces before ending up in some of the world's most famous museums.

What is so important about a 2,200-year-old slab of granite?

Carved in 196BC, the Rosetta Stone is the linguistic key to deciphering hieroglyphics and probably the single-most important conduit of understanding between the modern world and ancient Egypt. The 1.1m-high stele was covered in carved text bearing three translations of the same written passage. Two of the languages were Egyptian scripts, including one in hieroglyphics, and the remaining text was classical Greek.

Its discovery by a French army engineer in 1799 near the post of Rashid or Rosetta allowed western scholars to translate for the first time a succession of previously undecipherable hieroglyphs using the Greek translation and thus unlock many of the secrets left behind in the myriad carvings and frescos of the pharaonic era. Ironically, the meaning of the text on the stone itself was less than rivetting – it describes the repeal of various taxes by Ptolemy V and instructions on the erection of statues in temples.

What's Dr Hawass's case for returning the Stone?

As with the Greeks and the Elgin Marbles, he considers the stele to be stolen goods and has made it clear, in no uncertain terms, that he considers its continued presence in the British Museum to be a source of shame for the United Kingdom. Speaking in 2003, when his campaign began, Dr Hawass said: "If the British want to be remembered, if they want to restore their reputation, they should volunteer to return the Rosetta Stone because it is the icon of our Egyptian identity." The archaeologist, who has established a fearsome reputation as the self-appointed guardian of Egypt's antiquities since he was made head of the SCA in 2002, claimed this week that Britain had under-valued the stone and kept it in a "dark, badly-lit room" until he expressed an interest in its repatriation.

So was it stolen?

The Rosetta Stone's journey from the sands of an 18th-century desert fort to the hushed halls of the British Museum is indeed clouded by colonial skulduggery. The stone was discovered in July 1799 by Captain Pierre-Francois Bouchard, an engineer in Napoleon's army sent to conquer Egypt a year earlier. The arrival of the British in 1801 and their subsequent defeat of Napoleon's forces led to a dispute between the team of French scientists sent by Paris to collect archaeological finds and the commander of Britain's occupying army, who insisted they be handed over as the spoils of victory. General Jacques-Francois Menou, the French commander, considered the stone to be his private property and hid it.

Link: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/the-big-question-what-is-the-rosetta-stone-and-should-britain-return-it-to-egypt-1836610.html
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GaYellowDawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. Well, my view on this will get absolutely trashed, but...
... so long as fundamentalist Islam wields any kind of influence in Egypt, I have no objection to seeing all Egyptian relics stay in England. Or would anyone like to see the Rosetta Stone destroyed the same way that the Bamiyan Buddhas were by the fucktard Taliban?
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whoneedstickets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I thought the same thing...
imagine what might happen if a fundamentalist regime took over Egypt and decided to destroy all the idolatrous artifacts....what a tragedy
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Yeah, that's a pretty ridiculous statement.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Egypt is not Afghanistan
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yes, it only occasionally massacres tourists.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. there are many murders in the United States
don't see what your point is.

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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #4
25. Yeah but they're brown, ain't they?
:sarcasm:
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. well, that's a rather perplexing attitude considering this:
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GaYellowDawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 05:38 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. How is that perplexing?
It's actually consistent with my point. Any time religious fanatics are in control, they do their best to destroy other worldviews or cultures. I see more potential for that in today's Egypt than in today's England, so I'm fine with the Rosetta Stone and similar archeological treasures staying in England.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Yep.
Still really pissed about those Buddhas.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. that was in Afghanistan, not Egypt
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. I think the concern is legitimate but needs to be more substantiated
Just because the Taliban destroyed artifacts doesn't mean that we should act on automatic assumptions that the Muslim Brotherhood might do the same. If there is good reason to believe that they would then I could see your point. But "the Taliban did it" isn't a good enough reason.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. Huh?
The Rosetta Stone, like many other Egyptian relics, was stolen.
I'll take a safe bet that the US government destroyed more Iraqi artifacts than any members of fundamentalist Muslim groups.

No doubt you have already forgotten the looting of the Iraqi museums.
Who the hell gave the West the right to loot civilizations and then decide who is civilized enough to keep it? :puke:
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Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. I can understand your concern, but Egypt seems to value its ancient artifacts.
They bring in a lot of tourist revenue. I can't see them destroying those treasures. I suppose anything is possible, but it seems highly improbable.

Egypt is not Afghanistan.
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
16. Sure. But fundamentalist Christians can be equally destructive.
The modern world would surely be quite different had the British English not so successfully opposed that potential Napoleonic World Order.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBSmR7fhNsk
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theHandpuppet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 05:49 AM
Response to Original message
12. Britain & the U.S. should return all plundered artifcats
And not just the ones stolen from Egypt.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. +1
n/t
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WilmywoodNCparalegal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 06:25 AM
Response to Original message
13. Finder's Keepers... if that's the case, Italy wants the Monna Lisa
back. The truth is that it was discovered by the French and then taken or given, depending on whose version you read, to the British. They have it. They have shown it since 1802. The British Museum is a fantastic place and Dr. Hawass is, as the last three letters of his last name indicate, an ass. As an amateur archaeologist, I can't stand his posturing and his dictatorship over Egyptian archaeology. He enjoys being front and center but the truth of the matter is that he lets very few archaeologists have free rein in Egypt. There are sites in Egypt where there is the potential of finding innumerable archaeological goods that Dr. Hawass has denied to archaeologists for further study.

As to the influence of religious extremists, I couldn't agree more with previous posters. As some of you may remember, after the Gulf War version 1.0, the Baghdad museums were looted and, in the process, important archaeology from Sumerian, Assyrian and Babilonian times is now lost and/or on the black market.
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
17. I'm undecided
Ideologically, the stone should be returned to Egypt (and I'm an Englishman). However, if we're going to start trading artifacts back to their countries of origin, we're going to be going at this for an awful long time. Also, Hawass is, essentially, lying through his teeth. I visit the British Museum every few years and the Stone has pride of place in the Egyptian wing and has for as long as I or my father can remember. The last time it was placed in a "dark, badly-lit room" was when it was vaulted during WW2.

While fundementalist Islam's habit of destroying relics is much less of a concern in Egypt, the question must still be asked whether the Egyptian authorities are able to properly take care of the Stone. And no, it's not as simple as "it's their stone, they can do what they like with it". The people who carved the Stone in the past and the people who may want to see it in the future are not those making decisions about it in the present.
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Yes, Hawass is lying. England has always treasured the stone.
Edited on Thu Dec-10-09 07:53 AM by mainer
That's why they confiscated it from the French in the first place! And it's always had a place of honor in the British Museum, as far back as I can remember.

(Although I think the real stone is actually not the one on display -- they use a dummy so the real one will be protected.)

Besides which, it certainly wasn't an Egyptian icon when the French discovered it. It was being used as just a scrap stone in a wall in a fort.

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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. When I had a brief stay in London
that was the one thing I had to make sure I saw.
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HipChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
19. I've met Dr Zahi Hawass...he'll often meets groups visiting in official capacities but is a arrogant
man..pompous too...The Rosetta stone is best left in London, where it will be seen by more people..the Cairo Museum is a place which needs to be expanded to accommodate the numbers of people visiting,parts were dark,dingy
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KharmaTrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
20. Egypt Values Its History
I've seen Dr. Hawass many times and his zeal and dedication to preserving Egypt's history is admirable. The country also makes a good chunk of change of tourism to these sites...it's a shame after seeing all this history that you're not able to also view the Rosetta Stone.

Now was the stone stolen? Depends on who tells this story as it was the French (during Napoleon's failed invasion) that first encountered the stone. It's never been determined who really dug it up or was holding it. It appeared and then became a spoil of war...and an artifact that has meant more to the British and French than it did to the Egyptians. Now it has a value to all...and belongs with the rest of the valued antiquties...in Cairo.
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. The stone was rubble used to build an old fort wall
The French noticed it, realized its significance, and removed it. The Brits took it from the French as a spoil of war. There was a lot of haggling over it, because all the parties involved understood it was a priceless tool to decoding hieroglyphs.

That said, even if the Rosetta Stone goes back to Egypt, the British Museum has an exact copy for display. And the information has already been gleaned.
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. Thank you for that authentic observation.
Edited on Fri Dec-11-09 07:56 AM by Ghost Dog
al-Cairo, or, better, Alexandria, would be an excellent location for the Planetary Government's Universal Museum of (Edit: "Western") History. (Except, some weird neighbors close by still have nukes).

Absolutely without irony.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
22. Yes it should be returned, as should all of the plunder stolen by the colonial powers.
That would include many of the Crown Jewels.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
24. It was someone's "hard drive".
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
27. I don't really see a reason to keep it, if they want to give it back
it was translated years ago. They have many copies of it (I saw one 2 months ago). If they think it will ease international tensions then I believe it's science value is pretty safe no matter what happens to it in the future.
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