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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:04 AM
Original message
Divorce or amiable separation?
War is peace? For many progressives, it was a surreal moment watching the President justify the war in Afghanistan at the same time he was accepting the Nobel Peace Prize. For some, it may have been the start of divorce proceedings. At best, an amiable separation.

Did the President's speech ring true to you? Do you think it is a "just" war? Joe Scarborough and some Republicans think so. Or does it ring hollow?

Woodrow Wilson, the President during WWI, also won the Nobel Peace Prize. So it is not a precedent. Most likely, the majority of Americans agreed with the President. Unfortunately, the people he needs the most, the progressive base, may have different thoughts?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. ''America has never fought a war against a democracy.''
When we gotta parse it so aggression is OK against non-democracies that are no threat to America, we got a problem.
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NightWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. but we've overthrown some democratically elected leaders
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. More than a few
Time for action not words.
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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
16. you bet, as in Iran
How's that working for ya, CIA?
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
21. Ngô Dình Diem was the first democratically elected president of Vietnam...
Edited on Thu Dec-10-09 11:49 AM by Ozymanithrax
assassinated by a CIA coup in 1963.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Apparently under the orders of Prescott Bush business partner Averell Harriman.
Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest?

From "The Secret History of the CIA" by Joseph Trento

Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest accompanying them? To this day, nothing has been found in government archives tying the killings to either John or Robert Kennedy. So how did the tools and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he came up with: “On instructions from Averell Harriman…. The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodge’s own military assistant.”

Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York, W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long public career. In 1960, President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate “with the full confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of all aspects of United States policy.” By 1963, according to Corson, Harriman was running “Vietnam without consulting the president or the attorney general.”

The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security team was loyal. As Corson put it, “Kenny O’Donnell (JFK’s appointments secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor, was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president. He was especially worried about Michael Forrestal, a young man on the White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman.”

At the heart of the murders was the sudden and strange recall of Sagon Station Chief Jocko Richardson and his replacement by a no-name team barely known to history. The key member was a Special Operations Army officer, John Michael Dunn, who took his orders, not from the normal CIA hierarchy but from Harriman and Forrestal.

According to Corson, “John Michael Dunn was known to be in touch with the coup plotters,” although Dunn’s role has never been made public. Corson believes that Richardson was removed so that Dunn, assigned to Ambassador Lodge for “special operations,” could act without hindrance.

SOURCE:

“The Secret History of the CIA.” Joseph Trento. 2001, Prima Publishing. pp. 334-335.

Vietnam and Iraq Wars Started by Same People
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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. No, but we've certainly helped overthrow a few.... n/t
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EnlightenedOne Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. He was resolute
and I thought the speech was great. I believe he knows alot of things that we don't. He is not a lover of war or a warmonger. I believe this "war" may turn out to look a lot different in the next years then in the past 8. It may actually result in a rebuilding and awakening of Afghanistan, instead of just destruction. IF we can win over the people, which we might be able to do, under good leadership, this could have a good ending.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I thought the speech was shamefully illogical and FALSE. Invoking MLK and Ghandi was disgusting.
Was is peace. And fucking endless.

I got your change...
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EnlightenedOne Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. We heard the speech with different ears apparently
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xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. a du'er post on a thread i posted ..take a moment to read
Edited on Thu Dec-10-09 10:41 AM by xiamiam
i think i'm allowed to do this, post a post from a post....its a little cumbersome to read since his responses are not highlighted but well worth the time

zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Wed Dec-09-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
23. You asked for it

THE PRESIDENT: Good evening. To the United States Corps of Cadets, to the men and women of our Armed Services, and to my fellow Americans: I want to speak to you tonight about our effort in Afghanistan -- the nature of our commitment there, the scope of our interests, and the strategy that my administration will pursue to bring this war to a successful conclusion. It's an extraordinary honor for me to do so here at West Point -- where so many men and women have prepared to stand up for our security, and to represent what is finest about our country.

He was there because he had a captive audience that couldn't object, had to applaud, and
could provide a bit of stagecraft including pomp an music. It was his "mission accomplished" moment.

To address these important issues, it's important to recall why America and our allies were compelled to fight a war in Afghanistan in the first place. We did not ask for this fight. On September 11, 2001, 19 men hijacked four airplanes and used them to murder nearly 3,000 people. They struck at our military and economic nerve centers. They took the lives of innocent men, women, and children without regard to their faith or race or station. Were it not for the heroic actions of passengers on board one of those flights, they could have also struck at one of the great symbols of our democracy in Washington, and killed many more.

9/11, 9/11, 9/11. We complained about it when Bush did it, and when Gulliani did it. I'm not sure why
we'd give Obama a pass as he crams down more war.

As we know, these men belonged to al Qaeda -- a group of extremists who have distorted and defiled Islam, one of the world’s great religions, to justify the slaughter of innocents. Al Qaeda’s base of operations was in Afghanistan, where they were harbored by the Taliban -- a ruthless, repressive and radical movement that seized control of that country after it was ravaged by years of Soviet occupation and civil war, and after the attention of America and our friends had turned elsewhere.

A history lesson. Has anyone notice that OBL isn't there anymore?

Just days after 9/11, Congress authorized the use of force against al Qaeda and those who harbored them -- an authorization that continues to this day. The vote in the Senate was 98 to nothing. The vote in the House was 420 to 1. For the first time in its history, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization invoked Article 5 -- the commitment that says an attack on one member nation is an attack on all. And the United Nations Security Council endorsed the use of all necessary steps to respond to the 9/11 attacks. America, our allies and the world were acting as one to destroy al Qaeda’s terrorist network and to protect our common security.

More history, that ignores that the basis for those declarations is now gone. The lie of omission.

Under the banner of this domestic unity and international legitimacy -- and only after the Taliban refused to turn over Osama bin Laden -- we sent our troops into Afghanistan. Within a matter of months, al Qaeda was scattered and many of its operatives were killed. The Taliban was driven from power and pushed back on its heels. A place that had known decades of fear now had reason to hope.

No, it did not. It now had the ability to return to its tribal/warload/feudal ways. The drug trade began
again. Corruption ran rampant

At a conference convened by the U.N., a provisional government was established under President Hamid Karzai. And an International Security Assistance Force was established to help bring a lasting peace to a war-torn country.

Then, in early 2003, the decision was made to wage a second war, in Iraq. The wrenching debate over the Iraq war is well-known and need not be repeated here. It's enough to say that for the next six years, the Iraq war drew the dominant share of our troops, our resources, our diplomacy, and our national attention -- and that the decision to go into Iraq caused substantial rifts between America and much of the world.

Wait, wait, a moment ago he was talking about congressional authorization? That war was authorized too.
And it had the coalition of the willing. But even Obama considers those decisions "wrong", so how
does that make Afghanistan "right"?

Today, after extraordinary costs, we are bringing the Iraq war to a responsible end.

A week later the pentagon announces we'll may have to slow down our with drawl. Troop levels are
still around 126,000 troops, roughly "pre surge" levels. Not much of a "draw down".

We will remove our combat brigades from Iraq by the end of next summer, and all of our troops by the end of 2011.

When this doesn't come to pass (as the Pentagon is now suggesting) do we get to call that a lie?

That we are doing so is a testament to the character of the men and women in uniform. (Applause.) Thanks to their courage, grit and perseverance, we have given Iraqis a chance to shape their future, and we are successfully leaving Iraq to its people.

But while we've achieved hard-earned milestones in Iraq, the situation in Afghanistan has deteriorated. After escaping across the border into Pakistan in 2001 and 2002, al Qaeda’s leadership established a safe haven there. Although a legitimate government was elected by the Afghan people, it's been hampered by corruption, the drug trade, an under-developed economy, and insufficient security forces.

So we're after Al Qaeda, they are gone to a "friendly" nation, but we now need to focus.... well
still on Afghanistan because they are.... Um... Doing things we don't like.

Over the last several years, the Taliban has maintained common cause with al Qaeda, as they both seek an overthrow of the Afghan government. Gradually, the Taliban has begun to control additional swaths of territory in Afghanistan, while engaging in increasingly brazen and devastating attacks of terrorism against the Pakistani people.

He speaks as if the Afghan people are some unified population. They are at war with themselves. Yes,
there are outside actors. WE are outside actors. The Pashtun, which exist both inside and outside of
Afghanistan, are the core elements of the Taliban. And it's our job to sort out this mess. The Taliban
is successful because they are able to get the cooperation of the indigenous peoples.

Now, throughout this period, our troop levels in Afghanistan remained a fraction of what they were in Iraq. When I took office, we had just over 32,000 Americans serving in Afghanistan, compared to 160,000 in Iraq at the peak of the war. Commanders in Afghanistan repeatedly asked for support to deal with the reemergence of the Taliban, but these reinforcements did not arrive. And that's why, shortly after taking office, I approved a longstanding request for more troops. After consultations with our allies, I then announced a strategy recognizing the fundamental connection between our war effort in Afghanistan and the extremist safe havens in Pakistan. I set a goal that was narrowly defined as disrupting, dismantling, and defeating al Qaeda and its extremist allies, and pledged to better coordinate our military and civilian efforts.

Since then, we've made progress on some important objectives. High-ranking al Qaeda and Taliban leaders have been killed, and we've stepped up the pressure on al Qaeda worldwide. In Pakistan, that nation's army has gone on its largest offensive in years. In Afghanistan, we and our allies prevented the Taliban from stopping a presidential election, and -- although it was marred by fraud -- that election produced a government that is consistent with Afghanistan's laws and constitution.

How can a corrupt government be "consistent with the laws and constitution'?

Yet huge challenges remain.

For the Afghans, to figure out what they want, and are willing to work for.

Afghanistan is not lost, but for several years it has moved backwards.

From where, to where? They have moved AWAY from where Obama wants them to be.

There's no imminent threat of the government being overthrown, but the Taliban has gained momentum. Al Qaeda has not reemerged in Afghanistan in the same numbers as before 9/11, but they retain their safe havens along the border. And our forces lack the full support they need to effectively train and partner with Afghan security forces

What security forces? There are virtually none. A report out today explains that those that exist do
little and steal alot.

and better secure the population. Our new commander in Afghanistan -- General McChrystal -- has reported that the security situation is more serious than he anticipated. In short: The status quo is not sustainable.

Apparently we don't want to sustain the status quo. So why are we trying?

As cadets, you volunteered for service during this time of danger. Some of you fought in Afghanistan. Some of you will deploy there. As your Commander-in-Chief, I owe you a mission that is clearly defined, and worthy of your service. And that's why, after the Afghan voting was completed, I insisted on a thorough review of our strategy. Now, let me be clear: There has never been an option before me that called for troop deployments before 2010, so there has been no delay or denial of resources necessary for the conduct of the war during this review period. Instead, the review has allowed me to ask the hard questions, and to explore all the different options, along with my national security team, our military and civilian leadership in Afghanistan, and our key partners. And given the stakes involved, I owed the American people -- and our troops -- no less.

This review is now complete. And as Commander-in-Chief, I have determined that it is in our vital national interest to send an additional 30,000 U.S. troops to Afghanistan.

What are those interests? Al Qaeda is no longer there.

After 18 months, our troops will begin to come home.

When will they be back to the current levels? When will they be back to Jan 2009 levels? Your
SoS and SoD say that they will "evaluate" at 18 months and decide THEN who and how many come home.
No commitment to ANY initial with drawl.

These are the resources that we need to seize the initiative, while building the Afghan capacity that can allow for a responsible transition of our forces out of Afghanistan.

And how many Afghan's must die to accomplish this?

I do not make this decision lightly. I opposed the war in Iraq precisely because I believe that we must exercise restraint in the use of military force, and always consider the long-term consequences of our actions. We have been at war now for eight years, at enormous cost in lives and resources. Years of debate over Iraq and terrorism have left our unity on national security issues in tatters, and created a highly polarized and partisan backdrop for this effort. And having just experienced the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, the American people are understandably focused on rebuilding our economy and putting people to work here at home.

And not killing innocent Afghans.

Most of all, I know that this decision asks even more of you -- a military that, along with your families, has already borne the heaviest of all burdens. As President, I have signed a letter of condolence to the family of each American who gives their life in these wars.

How about the innocent Afghans you will have killed?

I have read the letters from the parents and spouses of those who deployed. I visited our courageous wounded warriors at Walter Reed. I've traveled to Dover to meet the flag-draped caskets of 18 Americans returning home to their final resting place. I see firsthand the terrible wages of war. If I did not think that the security of the United States and the safety of the American people were at stake in Afghanistan, I would gladly order every single one of our troops home tomorrow.

Why is our security tied to a bunch of folks who can't defend themselves, much less project power to
the US?

So, no, I do not make this decision lightly. I make this decision because I am convinced that our security is at stake in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

But that's not where many of the troops are going. We have plenty to patrol that region, especially
since you won't move into Pakistan (officially).

This is the epicenter of violent extremism practiced by al Qaeda. It is from here that we were attacked on 9/11,

No, it is not. That's a lie. We were attacked from right here in the US. They trained here. The CAME
from Saudi Arabia predominately. Most of their money came from there as well. The taliban had absolutely
no capacity to project power that far. They did not do the planning. The elements involved in any way
are no longer there and you haven't said ANYTHING in this speech to indicate when and if you ARE going to
find, capture, and bring to justice (the real kind, not that "indefinite detention crap you've been peddling.

and it is from here that new attacks are being plotted as I speak.

How? They have no capacity to project power. The people you seek are in PAKISTAN and Yehmen, and
else where. Are we going to have to listen to this speech again when you want to go war mongering there/

This is no idle danger; no hypothetical threat. In the last few months alone, we have apprehended extremists within our borders who were sent here from the border region of Afghanistan and Pakistan to commit new acts of terror. And this danger will only grow if the region slides back wards, and al Qaeda can operate with impunity. We must keep the pressure on al Qaeda, and to do that, we must increase the stability and capacity of our partners in the region.

What "partners"? Karzi? That's where our money goes? That's where our blood goes? The best
partners we have are the current Pakistani government and that ain't saying much. Karzi has no
capacity to do anything even if he WEREN'T corrupt as hell.

Of course, this burden is not ours alone to bear. This is not just America's war. Since 9/11, al Qaeda’s safe havens have been the source of attacks against London and Amman and Bali. The people and governments of both Afghanistan and Pakistan are endangered. And the stakes are even higher within a nuclear-armed Pakistan, because we know that al Qaeda and other extremists seek nuclear weapons, and we have every reason to believe that they would use them.

So the problem is Pakistan and where are you sending the troops?

These facts compel us to act along with our friends and allies. Our overarching goal remains the same: to disrupt, dismantle, and defeat al Qaeda in Afghanistan

THEY AREN'T THERE. We chased them out. Heck, there are more in Iraq than in Afghanistan.


and Pakistan, and to prevent its capacity to threaten America and our allies in the future.

To meet that goal, we will pursue the following objectives within Afghanistan. We must deny al Qaeda a safe haven.

Done, come on home.

We must reverse the Taliban's momentum and deny it the ability to overthrow the government.

They are the government in most places.

And we must strengthen the capacity of Afghanistan's security forces and government so that they can take lead responsibility for Afghanistan's future.

You can't strengthen that which does not exist.

We will meet these objectives in three ways. First, we will pursue a military strategy that will break the Taliban's momentum and increase Afghanistan's capacity over the next 18 months.

Which "Afghanistan"? Karzi's corrupt government? The Northern Alliance? Any of the other war lords?
How about elements currently allied with the Pakistan security forces sympathetic to the Taliban?

The 30,000 additional troops that I'm announcing tonight will deploy in the first part of 2010 -- the fastest possible pace -- so that they can target the insurgency and secure key population centers. They'll increase our ability to train competent Afghan security forces, and to partner with them so that more Afghans can get into the fight. And they will help create the conditions for the United States to transfer responsibility to the Afghans.

What afghans? The 400,000 that don't exist?

Because this is an international effort, I've asked that our commitment be joined by contributions from our allies.

The largest of whom have already told ya to pound sand. Put together your own "coalition of the willing"?

Some have already provided additional troops, and we're confident that there will be further contributions in the days and weeks ahead. Our friends have fought and bled and died alongside us in Afghanistan. And now, we must come together to end this war successfully. For what's at stake is not simply a test of NATO's credibility -- what's at stake is the security of our allies, and the common security of the world.

They why are you pursing this failing strategy which is relatively indistinguishable from your predecessors?

But taken together, these additional American and international troops will allow us to accelerate handing over responsibility to Afghan forces,

Accelerate? You mean you've already handed over responsibility? Which corrupt set got that honor?

and allow us to begin the transfer of our forces out of Afghanistan in July of 2011.

How many? How fast? When will we be back at the current levels. When are we back at Jan 2009 levels?

Just as we have done in Iraq,

We haven't in Iraq. We're still there. We're still there in numbers approximately as large as
prior to the "surge".

we will execute this transition responsibly, taking into account conditions on the ground.

Isn't that what we've been doing for 9 years?

We'll continue to advise and assist Afghanistan's security forces to ensure that they can succeed over the long haul. But it will be clear to the Afghan government -- and, more importantly, to the Afghan people -- that they will ultimately be responsible for their own country.

Which afghan people? The Northern Alliance? Karzi's family? The pashtun?

Second, we will work with our partners, the United Nations, and the Afghan people to pursue a more effective civilian strategy, so that the government can take advantage of improved security.

What improved security? You said we were moving back wards remember? There is nothing of which to
take advantage and you said that in 2011 you evaluate what if any progress had been made to even START
such a process.

This effort must be based on performance. The days of providing a blank check are over. President Karzai's inauguration speech sent the right message about moving in a new direction. And going forward, we will be clear about what we expect from those who receive our assistance. We'll support Afghan ministries, governors, and local leaders that combat corruption and deliver for the people. We expect those who are ineffective or corrupt to be held accountable. And we will also focus our assistance in areas -- such as agriculture -- that can make an immediate impact in the lives of the Afghan people.


Lot's of expectations, but where are the mechanisms? folks don't cooperate the way you want and you'll
start pulling troops prior to 2011? You'll pull them after 2011 if folks are cooperating such that
everything you fought for is for naught?

The people of Afghanistan have endured violence for decades. They've been confronted with occupation -- by the Soviet Union, and then by foreign al Qaeda fighters who used Afghan land for their own purposes. So tonight, I want the Afghan people to understand -- America seeks an end to this era of war and suffering.

By increasing it. Your own commanders are explaining that there will be GREATER bloodshed because of
what you are choosing to do.

We have no interest in occupying your country. We will support efforts by the Afghan government to open the door to those Taliban who abandon violence and respect the human rights of their fellow citizens. And we will seek a partnership with Afghanistan grounded in mutual respect -- to isolate those who destroy; to strengthen those who build; to hasten the day when our troops will leave; and to forge a lasting friendship in which America is your partner, and never your patron.

What leads you to believe that the people inside of Afghanistan care one bit about what you want?

Third, we will act with the full recognition that our success in Afghanistan is inextricably linked to our partnership with Pakistan.

Which part? The part of the security forces that are sympathetic to the Taliban?

We're in Afghanistan to prevent a cancer from once again spreading through that country. But this same cancer has also taken root in the border region of Pakistan. That's why we need a strategy that works on both sides of the border.

But that's not where you are sending your troops.

In the past, there have been those in Pakistan who've argued that the struggle against extremism is not their fight, and that Pakistan is better off doing little or seeking accommodation with those who use violence. But in recent years, as innocents have been killed from Karachi to Islamabad, it has become clear that it is the Pakistani people who are the most endangered by extremism. Public opinion has turned. The Pakistani army has waged an offensive in Swat and South Waziristan. And there is no doubt that the United States and Pakistan share a common enemy.

Yet we are sending 30,000 troops to.... Afghanistan nowhere near the border.

In the past, we too often defined our relationship with Pakistan narrowly. Those days are over. Moving forward, we are committed to a partnership with Pakistan that is built on a foundation of mutual interest, mutual respect, and mutual trust. We will strengthen Pakistan’s capacity to target those groups that threaten our countries, and have made it clear that we cannot tolerate a safe haven for terrorists whose location is known and whose intentions are clear.

Nor for the innocents around them I'll point out. Tough to sort out from a drone ain't it.

America is also providing substantial resources to support Pakistan’s democracy and development. We are the largest international supporter for those Pakistanis displaced by the fighting. And going forward, the Pakistan people must know America will remain a strong supporter of Pakistan’s security and prosperity long after the guns have fallen silent, so that the great potential of its people can be unleashed.

These are the three core elements of our strategy: a military effort to create the conditions for a transition; a civilian surge that reinforces positive action; and an effective partnership with Pakistan.

I recognize there are a range of concerns about our approach. So let me briefly address a few of the more prominent arguments that I've heard, and which I take very seriously.

Bet you don't address a single one that I mentioned.

First, there are those who suggest that Afghanistan is another Vietnam. They argue that it cannot be stabilized, and we're better off cutting our losses and rapidly withdrawing. I believe this argument depends on a false reading of history. Unlike Vietnam, we are joined by a broad coalition of 43 nations that recognizes the legitimacy of our action. Unlike Vietnam, we are not facing a broad-based popular insurgency. And most importantly, unlike Vietnam, the American people were viciously attacked from Afghanistan, and remain a target for those same extremists who are plotting along its border. To abandon this area now -- and to rely only on efforts against al Qaeda from a distance -- would significantly hamper our ability to keep the pressure on al Qaeda, and create an unacceptable risk of additional attacks on our homeland and our allies.

None of these are the reasons many of your critics compare it to Vietnam. Nice strawman Mr. President.
By the way, the guy commanding your forces? Yeah, he studied insurgencies by studying our war in
Vietnam whilst at West Point, ya know that place from which you are talking?

Second, there are those who acknowledge that we can't leave Afghanistan in its current state, but suggest that we go forward with the troops that we already have. But this would simply maintain a status quo in which we muddle through, and permit a slow deterioration of conditions there. It would ultimately prove more costly and prolong our stay in Afghanistan, because we would never be able to generate the conditions needed to train Afghan security forces and give them the space to take over.

Finally, there are those who oppose identifying a time frame for our transition to Afghan responsibility. Indeed, some call for a more dramatic and open-ended escalation of our war effort -- one that would commit us to a nation-building project of up to a decade. I reject this course because it sets goals that are beyond what can be achieved at a reasonable cost, and what we need to achieve to secure our interests. Furthermore, the absence of a time frame for transition would deny us any sense of urgency in working with the Afghan government. It must be clear that Afghans will have to take responsibility for their security, and that America has no interest in fighting an endless war in Afghanistan.

As President, I refuse to set goals that go beyond our responsibility, our means, or our interests. And I must weigh all of the challenges that our nation faces. I don't have the luxury of committing to just one. Indeed, I'm mindful of the words of President Eisenhower, who -- in discussing our national security -- said, "Each proposal must be weighed in the light of a broader consideration: the need to maintain balance in and among national programs."

So the women of America must give up abortion coverage so that we can kill more innocent Afghans.
Could we go over that trade one more time please?

Over the past several years, we have lost that balance. We've failed to appreciate the connection between our national security and our economy. In the wake of an economic crisis, too many of our neighbors and friends are out of work and struggle to pay the bills. Too many Americans are worried about the future facing our children. Meanwhile, competition within the global economy has grown more fierce. So we can't simply afford to ignore the price of these wars.

All told, by the time I took office the cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan approached a trillion dollars. Going forward, I am committed to addressing these costs openly and honestly. Our new approach in Afghanistan is likely to cost us roughly $30 billion for the military this year, and I'll work closely with Congress to address these costs as we work to bring down our deficit.

$30 Billion more OVER the additional billions you've already spent by increasing the forces there
since Jan 2009. Tell me again why we can't afford single payer?

But as we end the war in Iraq and transition to Afghan responsibility, we must rebuild our strength here at home. Our prosperity provides a foundation for our power. It pays for our military. It underwrites our diplomacy. It taps the potential of our people, and allows investment in new industry. And it will allow us to compete in this century as successfully as we did in the last. That's why our troop commitment in Afghanistan cannot be open-ended -- because the nation that I'm most interested in building is our own.

Now, let me be clear: None of this will be easy. The struggle against violent extremism will not be finished quickly, and it extends well beyond Afghanistan and Pakistan. It will be an enduring test of our free society, and our leadership in the world. And unlike the great power conflicts and clear lines of division that defined the 20th century, our effort will involve disorderly regions, failed states, diffuse enemies.

So, you have plans for more wars after Afghanistan? Yehmen? Somalia? Care to run down that list
so we understand what we are buying into?

So as a result, America will have to show our strength in the way that we end wars and prevent conflict -- not just how we wage wars. We'll have to be nimble and precise in our use of military power. Where al Qaeda and its allies attempt to establish a foothold -- whether in Somalia or Yemen or elsewhere -- they must be confronted by growing pressure and strong partnerships.

And we can't count on military might alone. We have to invest in our homeland security, because we can't capture or kill every violent extremist abroad. We have to improve and better coordinate our intelligence, so that we stay one step ahead of shadowy networks.

We will have to take away the tools of mass destruction. And that's why I've made it a central pillar of my foreign policy to secure loose nuclear materials from terrorists, to stop the spread of nuclear weapons, and to pursue the goal of a world without them -- because every nation must understand that true security will never come from an endless race for ever more destructive weapons; true security will come for those who reject them.

We'll have to use diplomacy, because no one nation can meet the challenges of an interconnected world acting alone. I've spent this year renewing our alliances and forging new partnerships. And we have forged a new beginning between America and the Muslim world -- one that recognizes our mutual interest in breaking a cycle of conflict, and that promises a future in which those who kill innocents are isolated by those who stand up for peace and prosperity and human dignity.

You do realize WE are killing "innocents" in both Afghanistan and Pakistan right? You might wanna
go down to Gitmo too. Appears we've killed a few innocents down there too. Oh, yeah, I forgot,
you've "got those guys backs".

And finally, we must draw on the strength of our values -- for the challenges that we face may have changed, but the things that we believe in must not. That's why we must promote our values by living them at home -- which is why I have prohibited torture and will close the prison at Guantanamo Bay. And we must make it clear to every man, woman and child around the world who lives under the dark cloud of tyranny that America will speak out on behalf of their human rights, and tend to the light of freedom and justice and opportunity and respect for the dignity of all peoples. That is who we are. That is the source, the moral source, of America’s authority.

Since the days of Franklin Roosevelt, and the service and sacrifice of our grandparents and great-grandparents, our country has borne a special burden in global affairs. We have spilled American blood in many countries on multiple continents. We have spent our revenue to help others rebuild from rubble and develop their own economies. We have joined with others to develop an architecture of institutions -- from the United Nations to NATO to the World Bank -- that provide for the common security and prosperity of human beings.

We have not always been thanked for these efforts, and we have at times made mistakes. But more than any other nation, the United States of America has underwritten global security for over six decades -- a time that, for all its problems, has seen walls come down, and markets open, and billions lifted from poverty, unparalleled scientific progress and advancing frontiers of human liberty.


You gonna mention all the cold war crap that brought us to this point? Iran? Cuba? Cambodia and
"air america"?

For unlike the great powers of old, we have not sought world domination. Our union was founded in resistance to oppression. We do not seek to occupy other nations. We will not claim another nation’s resources or target other peoples because their faith or ethnicity is different from ours. What we have fought for -- what we continue to fight for -- is a better future for our children and grandchildren. And we believe that their lives will be better if other peoples’ children and grandchildren can live in freedom and access opportunity. (Applause.)

As a country, we're not as young -- and perhaps not as innocent -- as we were when Roosevelt was President. Yet we are still heirs to a noble struggle for freedom. And now we must summon all of our might and moral suasion to meet the challenges of a new age.

By killing innocent people.

In the end, our security and leadership does not come solely from the strength of our arms. It derives from our people -- from the workers and businesses who will rebuild our economy; from the entrepreneurs and researchers who will pioneer new industries; from the teachers that will educate our children, and the service of those who work in our communities at home; from the diplomats and Peace Corps volunteers who spread hope abroad; and from the men and women in uniform who are part of an unbroken line of sacrifice that has made government of the people, by the people, and for the people a reality on this Earth. (Applause.)
This vast and diverse citizenry will not always agree on every issue -- nor should we. But I also know that we, as a country, cannot sustain our leadership, nor navigate the momentous challenges of our time, if we allow ourselves to be split asunder by the same rancor and cynicism and partisanship that has in recent times poisoned our national discourse.

Peace isn't partisanship, but a nice way of slandering those who don't agree with you. They
got you elected don't ya know.

It's easy to forget that when this war began, we were united -- bound together by the fresh memory of a horrific attack, and by the determination to defend our homeland and the values we hold dear. I refuse to accept the notion that we cannot summon that unity again. (Applause.) I believe with every fiber of my being that we -- as Americans -- can still come together behind a common purpose. For our values are not simply words written into parchment -- they are a creed that calls us together, and that has carried us through the darkest of storms as one nation, as one people.

You can't accomplish this by only inviting to the table those who will agree with you. Where were the
people advocating peace? All you had advising you were the very people complicit in getting us into
this mess to begin with. The same SecDef, the SoS who voted for this war, the generals that saluted
and fought it. The VP that voted for it. Please show me the list of folks "in the room" that are
advocating for peace.

America -- we are passing through a time of great trial. And the message that we send in the midst of these storms must be clear: that our cause is just, our resolve unwavering. We will go forward with the confidence that right makes might, and with the commitment to forge an America that is safer, a world that is more secure, and a future that represents not the deepest of fears but the highest of hopes. (Applause.)


So our highest hopes are years more of war?
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polpilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Better speech: 'Waging war in Iraq & Afghanistan was wrong. We've destroyed these
two countries and now peace will be our policy in this region.' Oh yeah, let's make an excuse for the 'war machine'.
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EnlightenedOne Donating Member (452 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. It can turn out differently
and it just might. I hate war - its the choice of barbarians and thieves, but we cannot leave two destroyed countries in our wake. We might actually be able to change things for the better, and maybe the end game of this "war" will not look like the past 8 years. I remain hopeful and I'm not here to argue. Won't do it.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Right! Look at Vietnam...
Look how well they did once we got out.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
28. Why not look at Iraq?
Edited on Thu Dec-10-09 12:47 PM by HughMoran
It is a more recent example and was called Bush's Vietnam by a whole lot of people.

- Kennedy: 'Iraq is George Bush's Vietnam' http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/05/kennedy.speech/

I'm not a fan of war by any stretch, but isn't it possible that "Vietnam" is the "Hitler" of anti-war arguments?
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
26. You do understand that when you stop shooting and the other guy doesn't
that does not really qualify as 'peace'.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
9. War is the ONLY solution to achieve peace when dealing with..........
fundamentalist Islamic terrorists that are residing in our own backyard and orchestrating bombings in places like Mumbai. Progressives need to get over IT and face the harsh reality of this ugly world. Obama has NO CHOICE!

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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Choice, smoice! Can anyone say TAPI. Get real, people!
It is time for more education on geography and pipelines. Please learn what TAPI stands for and where the US stands in its support.
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. Ok, then.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. Battered spouse syndrome.
Can an intervention be far behind?
:rofl:
Seriously, the fear is rolling off of you. Tune the radio to some nice Jazz, if that's your cup of tea, and relax. The bogey men are not after you.


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AndrewP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. LOL. Rush Limbaugh didn't mean to throw me down the stairs
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #24
33. I have NO FEAR. No one would be laughing if the Taliban gained control........
of Afghanistan, then Pakistan. Obviously YOU haven't been paying attention so feel free to go back and stick your head in the sand; I'm certain YOU can make everything go away.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. We put the Taliban in control in the 80s and they were still in control
when we invaded.

The mission, "kill the terrorists", was 98% accomplished in the first three months by special forces and huge bombs. Everything since then is corporate welfare and slaughter. Afghanistan was fucked up when we got there and it will be fucked up when we leave.

Terrorism is a crime and intelligence and police forces are far better suited to fighting it than the military.


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xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. bs..nt
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. brilliant.
Now explain your bs. Maybe YOU think you can go over to Afghanistan and have a 'nice little' meeting with the Taliban and everything will be ok. BO knew better even BEFORE he was elected President; the Taliban is attempting to gain control of Afghanistan and more importantly Pakistan.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
30. Excuse #364: We're fighting this thing....for India?
Really?

You'd think that with a billion plus people, India could muster an army. :shrug:
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. It is about the Taliban gaining control of Afghanistan AND.........
Pakistan. BO knows he has got to stop this threat and it sure isn't going to happen with peace talks.
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xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
12. joe scar, bill kristol, liz cheney, bill kristol approve of the escalation
why?
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. Because they see it as getting between the Democratic president
and much of the Democratic party.

They DON'T give a fuck about Afghanistan, or Pakistan, or understand what is happening in either place. They just approve of anything they think will undermine Obama.
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xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. i dont think that is the reason ..nt
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
13. Well, at least he didn't smirk.
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xiamiam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
18. k
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
19. Ask the 90% of Americans who supported Little Boots and his big move to invade Afghanistan
Like lemmings over a cliff.

Don
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-10-09 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
20. Go back, read the reason the was awarded the peace prize...
It was given him for something he did prior to the escalation.

Jim Thorp did not lose his medals from the 1912 Olympics because he played pro ball after being named the greatest athlete int he world and winning five gold medals. Jim Thorp lost his gold medals earned in 1912 because he was paid between $2.00 a game and $35.00 a week for playing minor league baseball in 1909 and 1910.

Obama was awarded the Nobel peace prize for changing the tone through the entire world. It was awarded before he escalated the war in Afghanistan. He is not disqualified because the Nobel committee already awarded the prize. He does not lose it for actions after the award. Let us not Thorp President Obama.
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-11-09 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
34. I'll wait for Tiger's reply before I formulate an opinion.
blah blah blah...
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