DISSENT: We must take our nation back!

[Goldstein1984]

The overwhelming majority of citizens of the United States have been betrayed by their government. The electorate sends representatives to office in local, state and federal office. The majority of those elected officials end up prostituting themselves to special interests. Those special interests reflect the best interests of a tiny fraction of Americans—the political and economic elite. The elites live parasitically on the working class. The working class is their peasant class.

Our ruling class is dedicated to globalization and empire building. They have no concerns about the impact on the working class. They compromise the American values of democracy, human rights and civil liberty both at home and abroad. Our government tolerates oppression and crimes against humanity among our allies, while instituting restrictions on civil liberties at home. The current administration demonstrates its sameness by continuing with secrecy and refusing to investigate and prosecute crimes against humanity committed by the previous administration. Americans can now be incarcerated for years without legal representation or charges being filed. Our privacy is at the convenience of Big Brother.

The role of the military has been changed from defense to protecting “national interests.” Adopting national interest as the standard for use of the military has the advantage that we need not actually be threatened before resorting to force. Of course, the military has long been used to protect the financial interests of American corporations abroad, which is why we support military coups in places like Indonesia, Chile, Haiti and Honduras. It’s the real reason we bother with the Middle East and Central Asia. Cuba’s only crime is rejecting capitalism. Hugo Chavez is demonized because he puts the welfare of the people before foreign corporate interests. Manuel Zelaya is a refugee in his own country for confronting Honduran businesses allied with American business and a military trained and indoctrinated by the United States.

There are those who are quick to remind anyone demanding democracy that this nation is, in fact, a republic. But a republic implies that representatives must be democratically elected by those they represent, and, of course, they are expected to represent those who elected them. With very few exceptions among elected officials, this is no longer the case in the United States. We are not the democratic republic our leaders pretend we are. Our “leaders” betray and devalue the principle of democracy.

It’s time to make change happen. Don’t expect it to come from the top. The top is nothing but a self-interested oligarchy. The “System” is designed to perpetuate itself, so don’t expect change from within. The People must go outside the system. But how do “We the People” we do this without resorting to violence? How do we let the ruling class know the working class is in revolt?

We use economic boycotts. We engage in hunger strikes. We call and observe general strikes. We take the time to march and demonstrate. We call on progressives with the nation’s attention to use their platforms to organize the American people. We need a progressive in a leadership position to stick his or her neck out and call for open dissent. We must have nonviolent revolution. WE MUST TARGET WHAT MATTERS--THE BOTTOM LINE!

America was born in dissent. There is nothing more American than dissent.

[WeDidIt]

1. No thanks

I see our country moving in the right direction currently.

[county worker]

20. You don't think the politicians owe more allegiance to the corporations then they do to us?

I think the health care issue is a good case in point. Any thinking person who looks at our health care problems can see that the solution is not to do the bidding of the insurance companies, yet that is just what is happening. I don't see any hope that we will get the best reform that can be had. It is more important to the politicians to preserve the health insurance industry than it is to provide affordable health care to everyone. That is not moving in the right direction.

[WeDidIt]

23. I think radical people should stay out of politics

Politics is the art of compromise. Radicals are unwilling to compromise and thus drive the debates to extremes, both right and left.

The radical rightists have taken over the Republican Party and nearly destroyed it.

I'd hate to see radical leftists do the same to the Democratic Party, but they are apparently hell bent on it.

[Voltaire]

26. Yep, we are

because in a broken republic, compromise SUCKS!

[WeDidIt]

27. The only thing broken is the uncompromising attitudes

Sorry, but that;s the fact.

Our system is doing just fine. It's the uncompromising radicals who are broken.

[anigbrowl]

31. +1

I cannot help but notice that the more radical and uncompromising DUers are also the most likely to employ circular logic and rhetorical fallacies to make their arguments.

[Goldstein1984]

34. An example please?

The only thing circular that I see is doing the same thing over and over and expecting something different to happen.

The system isn't just fine the way it is. It is corrupted--both parties. It is broken--both parties. It serves the few at the expense of the many--both parties.

[anigbrowl]

46. Your own posts, to begin with.

Above, you first reinterpret the phrase 'circular logic' to mean cyclical, then in your second paragraph you employ a straw man fallacy so you can 'refute' a claim I never made in the first place. But hey, you're on a roll. Enjoy yourself.

[Goldstein1984]

53. You haven't addressed my point

You didn't identify any circular logig in my post.

You mistakenly think my playing on "circular logic" to move to cyclical behavior is a logical fallacy rather than an intentional rhetorical shift to point out the lunacy of expecting change from within the system.

You argue that my argument about the system being broken is a 'straw man." It was simply a statement that the system is broken. A straw man argument involves more than a simple statement of fact.

Why don't we just discuss the points of the post, instead of resorting to falacious fallacies?

I'm enjoying responding to all the replies, positive and negative--I love dissent--but this string isn't very interesting.

[anigbrowl]

86. We are not going to agree about this

Whether by accident or design, you've gone down the path of redefining terms in order to win the argument.

For example, you mention your 'simple statement that the system is broken'. But you did not make a simple statement that the system is broken: you made a negative statement that 'the system isn't just fine the way it is' - as if I had been arguing that it was. Indeed, a straw man does involve more than a simple statement of fact - in this case, you chose to express your opinion in the form of a refutation, and now you are asking us to take your opinion as a statement of fact, too.

I think our political system is tremendously flawed. However, I do not believe that it will be improved by a further infusion of demagoguery. Good day, sir.

[Goldstein1984]

91. Thanks! Great thread!!!

I didn't know I was restricted only to addressing your comment. I apologize for taking the liberty of expanding the argument. You are correct in saying that I went beyond your basic point.

I guess I assumed that a system that isn't working the way it is was broken. You are correct in saying that a system isn't necessarily broken just because it isn't working fine the way it is. But whether it is broken, or operating according to a design that doesn't meet the intent of the system, it still needs adjustment.

This is really good. It got boring for a minute or two when we got off topic and into the rhetorical weeds, but I think it picked up again.

This is exactly what I'm looking for from DU.

Thanks!

[leeroysphitz]

93. That was pretty weak. n/t

[derby378]

90. If our system was doing fine, we'd already have a real public option

Compromise, in the current context, is apostasy. You know it, I know it, and my fellow DUers know it.

[lib2DaBone]

145. Theres a battle outside and it's raging.. it will soon rattle your windows

..and doors.. for the times they are a changing.... your world is rapidly aging...

[intheflow]

170. Our system isn't fine.

Corporations have greater access to politicians than regular constituents have via campaign contributions. Banking, insurance, arms manufacturers and oil companies wield far too much influence on policy, while education and social safety net programs are shafted. Do you really want our government to stay the way it is, corrupted by greed and power, not serving its citizens' needs?

Granted, it's Utopian to imagine any political structure uncorrupted by greed and power, but does that mean we should cease striving to "establish Justice... <and> promote the general Welfare"? The men who ratified the Constitution were the radicals of their time. They were just successful radicals, and history is written by the victors. We on the far left are not "uncompromising radicals," we are patriots who seek to bring about "a more perfect union."

[county worker]

40. Radicals are a much needed minority.

They are the engine that moves us in a direction. We don't go as far as they want but without them we would move in the opposite direction. God bless the radicals! I just hope ours are as strong as theirs, because theirs will always be there!

[WeDidIt]

43. IF they are willing to compromise, fine

If not, they are a hindrance to the process.

[county worker]

45. Look, if they compromise they wouldn't be radical and they would be useless to us.

The fact that they don't compromise is what makes them useful. They won't get in your way. They are helping you out just being what they are. The power they have is the power of persuasion. They demand 10 and we get 4. If they didn't demand ten we would get -4!

[anigbrowl]

52. Yeah, that's working out real well for the GOP

That's a good example of what happens when a party is dragged too far by its radical fringe. More of anything is not automatically better; a benign philosophy when taken to extremes can be viciously authoritarian.

Far too many people look at politics as if it were a Manichean struggle between good and evil, and assume their side is the source of all good and the other side is the source of all evil. Of course, many of the people on the other side believe the exact same thing. So you end up with debate dominated by ideologues and politics basically turns into a sequence of religious wars.

To the extent that Democrats become more ideological in response to the teabag crowd's influence on the GOP, we are in fact endorsing their behavior and thinking patterns.

[county worker]

54. "we are in fact endorsing their behavior and thinking patterns"

Exactly! That's just what we need to be doing. Do you know that we are losing the climate debate? Every week the number of people thinking that man is not the cause of global warming grows. Why? Because of the right wing noise machine is all they hear.

You will be in the fight and compromise and yet don't understand that the room you have to compromise comes from those who have established the starting point in the first place.

In the health care debate. If we had stood ground and demanded a single payer system, we may have gotten a good public option.

The right wing noise machine established the starting point and you will get what ever concessions you can take from them. Thanks a whole hell of a lot!

on edit: you'll die with your principles intact

You may be disappointed if you fail, but you are doomed if you don't try.


Beverly Sills (1929 - )

[treestar]

84. The far far right does not have anything near what it wants

So if you want to be as marginalized as they are -

They are angry we are getting out of Iraq. They are upset that any health reform could take place. They are upset that abortion is still legal. They don't have prayer in schools. They don't get to kick pregnant teens out of school and make them into pariahs. They have government regulation of business, which they don't believe should exist at all. Some of them are against the Federal Reserve.

They don't get their way on immigration (keep all brown people out). They don't get anywhere near what they want on foreign relations. They want us out of the UN! And to kick the UN out of New York!

They don't like the existence of public schools. No welfare, Social Security, Medicaid.

[Goldstein1984]

92. That's all true, but...

they're still working on it. They will continue to work on it.

And it isn't moderate democrats that stop them. It's organizations like the ACLU, the Freedom from Religion Foundation, The Center for Inquiry, and many other activist and informational organizations that stop them. It's people like Naomi Klein, Howard Zinn, Jeff Sharlet, Ralph Nader, Jesse Jackson, Noam Chomsky, Bernie Sanders, and many other activists that stop them. It was movements like the Black Panthers who made the government choose nonviolent reform over the alternative. It was workers organizing into unions and demanding a say in their lives that created change.

Voters maintain the status quo. Activist change things.

[treestar]

94. How can you separate the voters out?

It's what they want that will matter. Convincing them is the only thing to do. Not put oneself above them as activists - I'd rather the voters decides than Naomi Klein, etc.

[Goldstein1984]

101. Activists are heard when voters are not

Activists have to gain a following to be heard. They have people behind them. The influence voters. They expose facts and hypocricy. They continue to be heard long after the voters have left the polls and settled back down in front of their televisions.

The difference between a republic and a democratic republic is determined by whether the voters continue to be heard after the polls close.

[kctim]

61. I think I love you

VERY well put.

[county worker]

100. Well if you are a radical I think you have done some good for me so the feeling could be mutual

but my wife wouldn't like it!

[kctim]

103. My bad

I was refering to post #52 from anigbrowl.

Only progressives consider me radical, they hate that I won't let them think for me.

[Goldstein1984]

109. No worries...

This is a lot of fun. Great replies, for and against my OP.

Good people on DU. Great discussion.

[treestar]

82. They do not have any powers of persuasion

They demand 10 in such a way we get 3 when we could have gotten 6.

And thankfully it applies also to the Republicans, who would have repealed Medicare by now and have had us in more wars and would have undone all regulations, so that your much hated corporations and insurance companies could have even more money doing even more of what they want.

[Chisox08]

172. Um its hard to get the 6 when you started at 5

And negotiated it down to 2 and the other side still will not vote to defeat it.

[leeroysphitz]

97. The process of ensuring mediocrity?

[Toots]

178. Is there anything you would not compromise over?

There are things I hold dear and would NEVER compromise over, but I guess you would call me a radical and not worthy of opinion..

[Goldstein1984]

60. Passive people should stay out of politics...

They give the impression that everything is just fine when it isn't.

The Democratic Party, in case you haven't noticed, is whoring itself out to Wall Street just like the Republican Party. You can see the little lines where their jaws move, and the strings attached to Wall Street's fingers.

The most democratic member of congress is Bernie Sander, an Independent.

[Xicano]

75. Should we compromise on top of compromise on top of compromise?

We've compromised so much that we are fast losing our middle class. We've compromised so much that we've lost numerous civilrights protections. How much compromise are we expected to make? I don't see that we have anything left to compromise on.


That's just my two cents.

[treestar]

81. Exactly

And they do not really want to win anyone to their position either. They want to be "better" than others due to their purity, and thus do all they can to alienate, and therefore those elected are never good enough for them. That makes what they want even more unattainable.

[Goldstein1984]

96. I'm sorry, but that's not true

That's just a Liberal's angle on the Conservative rejection of "the academic elite."

Principles are principles. How far you compromise them is the only issue. There is a need for purists to ensure that compromise doesn't go to far.

You compromise. People of principle will watch your back for you.

[lib2DaBone]

136. Oh Brother.. like what's left of the Dems? Obama's Promise?

Hey.. give me a check for $100.. and I PROMISE.. I won't cash it......(within the hour)

[Chisox08]

171. Its compromsing when the other side is negotaiting in good faith

Not making insane demands and still not voting for the legislation after you get just about everything you want. We can't negotiate with Republicans when their stated goal is a political defeat for the Democrats. The Republicans will not vote for anything that we want no matter how much the Democrats give in to them.

[Goldstein1984]

173. What could be less Republican than progress?

They are gaming the system for the sole purpose of stopping the progressive agenda. Because what could be less Republican that progress?

Republicans will only accept an America in their own image. They'd rather destroy the nation than see a return to socially responsible capitalism.

Compromise is for suckers. You can't play softball when your opponent is playing hardball.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

177. I'd hate to see the center-Left continue to kowtow to Wall St and...

...multinational corporations. Centrists--on the Left and Right--are hell bent to destroy the country.


Handing our government over to multinational corporations? That's radical. That's a radical departure from the principles of our founding fathers. It wasn't supposed to be this way. Whatsamatta with you?

[progressoid]

184. But without radicals, there would be little need for compromise

We could all be centrists and moderates and life would be like a wonderful Lifetime Chrismas special.

:puke:

[readmoreoften]

202. I think opportunists, I mean centrists, should be purged, uh, I mean "stay out of politics"

Yes, history has shown that its the great opportunists--the centrists-- who sacrifice people for the art of compromise who ruin everything. Those sensible members of the SPD (Germany Democrats) who joined with the right against their left, became "nationalist" and "reasonable" and helped Hitler come to power. The Vichy French. Those wonderful people now, defending torture and defending a war that they don't understand for political gain.

Ask me: its the centrists who are the true monsters of history. Too cowardly and corrupt to fight against barbarism and mass murder. The people who know better, but let it happen anyway. The people who answer "some innocent people should be murdered" when the question is "Should no innocent people be murdered or should all innocent people be murdered."

Centrism is truly a pathology.

[Xicano]

72. Can I ask you to elaborate?

I mean what direction do you see us heading into?

Myself, I agree with the OP and John Perkin's new book "Hoodwinked." I like this book better than I liked "Confessions of an Economic Hitman."



Peace,
Xicano

[alarimer]

116. Spoken like a true corporatist.

Considering that Kucinich is one of the few honorable members of Congress left, and your sig disses him.

Fucking Blue Dog pieces of shit need to be thrown out now and their supporters are traitors to Democratic Party principles. Fucking corporate whores.

[Goldstein1984]

118. Kucinich and Sanders

Anybody know any others?

Must be one or two...or one more.

[bvar22]

129. Moving in the right direction?

Lets do a quick review:

*The Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party SHUT OUT of the Obama Administration…...Mission Accomplished!

*WARS fully funded and EXPANDING. Bill sent to our children…...Mission Accomplished !

*Trillion Dollars given to friends and campaign contributors on Wall Street. No Strings Attached...Mission Accomplished!

*Military Spending INCREASED....Mission Accomplished!

*Trillion+ Dollars given to the Health Insurance Industry. Token, easily avoidable, symbolic only strings attached....Mission almost Accomplished!

*Kill the possibility for a REAL "Public Option" or REAL Universal Health Care for at least another generation, and begin the “Entitlement Reform” defunding of Medicare (-$500 Billion)....Mission almost Accomplished!

*Block ANY re-regulation of BIG BANKS and Credit Cards....Mission Accomplished!

*Protect the Bush War Criminals and Torturers from JUSTICE....Mission Accomplished.

*Reinforce the worst Police State provisions of the Patriot Act....Mission Accomplished!

*Protect the very richest. Tell the Working Class that they CAN will be forced to compete with 3rd World Slave Labor.....Mission Accomplished!

*EFCA (Employee Free Choice Act) killed in the crib....Mission Accomplished!

*More Anti-LABOR "Free Trade"....Mission almost Accomplished!

*Jobless Recovery....Mission Accomplished

*The next generation buried under such a debt burden that they will never be able to afford any social or economic programs that will benefit their Working Class....Mission Accomplished.

Maybe its just me, but I was HOPING to CHANGE the direction.
This looks like more of the same Anti-Working Class "Centrist" bullshit that the Democratic Party has been serving up for the last 25 years.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[Goldstein1984]

130. Now we're on a roll!

Saul Alinsky would be proud!

[stray cat]

2. That will help the economy! Its like hijacking the titanic after it hit ice

:sarcasm: The economy is in the tanks - people are out of work - what is our latest deficit? Lets all go on a hunger strike or work strike. How does that create jobs?

[rfranklin]

10. So you think the nation is like the Titanic?

You are very pessimistic.

[stray cat]

29. Do you think its safely afloat and full steaming ahead?

[Goldstein1984]

38. It's a lot like the Titanic

Let's see...

There's an economic elite and the lower class
There aren't enough lifeboats for everyone
It's a massive ship with an undersized rudder
It's leadership is compromised by business interests
Then there's that nasty part about sinking...

Yes, this nation is definitely a lot like the Titanic

[FarLeftFist]

3. There's alot of things more American than dissent.

Like unity, for example. United we stand, divided we fall.

[Echo In Light]

8. Given such a densely propagandized, de-politicized populace, I'd suggest united we fall

[Goldstein1984]

66. Exactly!

What do they need with liberty and democracy? They have reality television to keep them pacified. They have the mainstream corporate media to keep them informed. And they can always go online, send an email to their elected representatives, and get nice little form letters back thanking them for their ideas.

[Goldstein1984]

13. Then we are falling...

because we are divided.

And that is one of the ways we are manipulated.

[leftstreet]

4. Back to what?

:shrug:

[Shagbark Hickory]

5. Who would've thought we'd still be saying this?!

This time last year we were pretty confident things were going to improve.

[FarLeftFist]

9. I think people are pretty confident....

Things did improve from this time last year.

[Shagbark Hickory]

17. They improved a lot for wall street and the health insurance companies.

Everyone else is still waiting for some relief and losing hope by the hour.

[Goldstein1984]

58. Which people?...

The unemployed?
The foreclosed?
The uninsured?
Those serving and soon to serve in Afghanistan?

[countingbluecars]

6. After 8 years of Bush/Cheney

things are looking up as far as I am concerned.

[rfranklin]

12. Still have the Patriot Act which is UnAmerican as you can get...

National security letters, wiretapping without warrants, torture okay.

I would say there are some things that are going very much in the wrong direction.

[countingbluecars]

16. Yet other things are getting better.

I refuse to buy into the "now is the time for revolution" mentality which is being pushed by the extremes on both sides. We have a Democrat in office. While I don't agree with all Obama is doing, we are so much better off than we would be with a republican in office. Consider the supreme court, the environment, science, etc. There is much to be done, and we have a better chance with a Democrat as president.

[Goldstein1984]

49. I'm not talking about overthrowing the government...

I'm talking about getting their attention. Obama would be changing more and compromising less if there was pressure to do so. The wealthy are still growing wealthier, the poor growing poorer, and soldiers are being sent to fight a war for petroleum reserves and pipeline routes.

Obama and congress are selling out to Wall Street.

The knife has been pulled out of America's back, but it's still bleeding to death.

[bdamomma]

37. like when Obama was campaigning he said it's going to take awhile

to steer that big ship in the right direction. I have my fingers crossed. Eight years of bush/cheney abusive ways did not help this country.

[Goldstein1984]

50. It will take less time if...

the American people insist on it.

I'm just talking about sending a decisive message that tells our "leaders" we've had enough of fear mongering and trickledown bullshit.

[bdamomma]

51. I still think Class Wars plays a big part of what's going on.

[Goldstein1984]

65. Wake up sheople!!

Class warfare is certainly part of it.

Who is doing the dying in Iraq and Afghanistan? The wealthy?

Whose interests are we talking about when we say "national interest"?

When the people bailed out the banks, the banks sat on the money.

When the people bailed out the auto industry, they downsized.

Are the people closing down factories and sending jobs outside the borders?

The wealthy aren't concerned about this country. They always have their vacation homes if things get too bad here.

Does Osama bin Laden do the dying for his cause? No! Neither did George Bush. Neither is Barack Obama!

Old rich people make wars, then send young poor people to die in them.

[NYCGirl]

7. Teabag much? NT

[Goldstein1984]

14. The teabaggers have the right idea...

While I don't agree with their politics, at least they are being heard.

[NYCGirl]

18. No, they don't. They are comic relief. NT

[FarLeftFist]

24. That's the best you could say about them?

Is at least they're being heard? So were the Nazi's and the KKK.

[Goldstein1984]

47. And so were the...

Vietnam War protests
Civil rights activists
WTO Seattle protests
G20 Philidelphia protests
Tehran protests

Since when does being heard for the right reason equate with being heard for the wrong reasons?

The teabaggers may be nutcakes, but they are participating nutcakes. The nation is paying attention to them while progressives sit back and let Keith Obermann, Rachel Maddow and Ed Shultz do their work for them.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

62. Where your logic falls apart is that the groups you listed had more going for them than just "being

heard"

Whereas "being heard" is the only thing the teabaggers have going for them.

[Goldstein1984]

67. The teabaggers are nut cases, but...

Being heard is the first step. I wrote "at least they're being heard." What fallacious about that? Are they not being heard? Is being heard not critical to communicating?

The Teabaggers are nut cases. But don't reject activism in general because a few people make discredit it.

Activists play a big part in our history.

[MineralMan]

63. If you think the teabaggers have the right idea, I think

you're on the wrong web site.

[Goldstein1984]

68. BEING HEARD is the right idea...

Don't reject activism just because a few activists are nut cases.

How does one communicate without being heard?

If nobody is listening, how does one get heard without turning up the volume?

And don't toss out the label "teabagger" the way a capitalist tosses out the label "socialist" anytime they want to end an argument by invalidating the proponent.

[MineralMan]

73. You're the one tossing around the label, "teabagger," not me.

As for activism, you have no idea who here is an activist. Try reading instead of posting for a while. You'll learn something of use to you in participating on this forum.

Or, ignore my advice. I'm done with you.

[Goldstein1984]

102. Been following DU for months

Look up the thread a bit. Somebody else tossed out the term "teabagger." I just responded to the unfair comparison.

"done with you." Is that a bad thing?

[MineralMan]

126. You wrote, in the title of a post,

"The Teabaggers have the right idea."

That is tossing out the term "teabagger," and supporting it. As for whether my being done with you is a good thing or a bad thing depends on who's answering.

[Goldstein1984]

131. I responded in Post #14 to Post #7

Teabaggers have the right idea--BE HEARD. That's it, and that's all. Otherwise they're morons, but effective morons.

Evidently, neither of us is done with the other. We'll both be hanging around.

Thanks for all the great feedback. Nothing worse than sitting around with a bunch of people all agreeing with each other.

I am a little confused, though. Are you sure this is the Democratic "Underground?" A lot of what I'm reading seems pretty conformist and mainstream to me. I've been an activist in one form or another since I was ten years old and riding around in a VW bus with my hippie cousin and her friends. Not much "underground" about DU. Maybe there should be a Democratic Status Quo website for those afraid of a little activism.

[AndrewP]

176. Thom Hartmann made a similar point on his show yesterday

The Teabaggers in general have the passion, but are being mislead. He was talking about how we have to tap into that kind of passion. The populist passion that is out there against the Government.

NOT the "Obama is a Kenyan" bullshit, but the movement that Washington is broken.

[SIMPLYB1980]

11. "Oligarchy"

http://www.zazzle.com/glen+beck+gifts

[Echo In Light]

19. Same reason RWers use "fascism" & "censorship" & "projection;"

... To defang those warranted, applicable terms when they're used against proponents of oligarchy.

[Goldstein1984]

22. Wrong side of the political fence

Beck is just a middleman for the ruling class. He whips up the emotions of the uniformed. Like others of his ilk, he sells the masses to his corporate sponsors. They represent the polar opposite of the revolt I'm writing about.

[SIMPLYB1980]

64. Then leftbagger. No difference really.

[Goldstein1984]

69. "Leftbagger"??? No wonder where we are where we are...

Activism and speaking out publicly suddenly isn't stylish.

How do you think women became voters? How do you think minorities obtained their civil rights? How do you think the Vietnam War ended? Protests shut down the WTO Convention in Seattle.

This is ironic. A case where ignorance of history causes someone to be doomed NOT to repeat it.

Words are nothing unless they lead to action. Post away!

[SIMPLYB1980]

78. LOL! You have nothing in common with those movements.

They did more than just bitch about the evil Oligarchy on the inter-tubes to get what they deserved.

[Goldstein1984]

104. You have a lot to learn

I participated in the Vietnam protests. I lived through the civil rights movement. I've walked off the job and picketed for the AFL/CIO. I carried a sign in California for the United farm workers, and I met Cesar Chavez. I boycotted DDT and grapes when I was still in high school. I picketed the International Whaling Commission meeting in Anchorage, Alaska. And I put my money where my mouth and keyboard are in supporting activist organizations.

I've earned the right to sit at my keyboard and bitch. I'm hoping a bunch of apathetic people who seem satisfied to do only that will wake up. I'll be out there in the streets again.

I have children and grandchildren with futures compromised by Democrats and Republicans alike.

[SIMPLYB1980]

106. .

:nopity:

[Goldstein1984]

132. Funny. Deep as a cookie sheet, but funny.

Can anybody tell me where to find the "underground" part of DU? An awful lot of what I'm reading seems pretty mainstream and status quo to me.

[SIMPLYB1980]

134. We haven't been underground since before I came here.

:shrug:

[Goldstein1984]

139. We'll work on that.

We're not sheople.

Come on. You...me...about a million other people. I'm getting lots of positive feedback. Let's shake things up.

Here, we just converse and discuss ideas. Out there, we act. It takes both.

I'm thinking about using my vacation next year to join in on that peace movement posted below.

I haven't marched for anything in about three years, and that was for whales. This is about us, our children, our grandchildren.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Goldstein1984]

144. What happens happens. I'm not a conformist.

If I mistook this for a website with some substance, then fine.

A thousand posts means nothing if you aren't saying anything worth reading.

If you you haven't offended someone when you speak, then you probably aren't saying anything worth hearing.

That "noob" stuff means nothing.

[SIMPLYB1980]

148. I think you are mistaking me for someone

that is civil to teabaggers? :shrug:

[Goldstein1984]

149. Or just civil...

Not a teabagger. Teabaggers are regressive.

No wonder the country sucks so bad.

[SIMPLYB1980]

150. I'll help you run up your post count

as much as you want. Will be fun. :evilgrin:

[Goldstein1984]

152. Thanks, but I'll do this the right way or not at all...

I'm too old and mean to worry about playground bullies.

[SIMPLYB1980]

175. Sorry I went to bed instead.

:boring: You were teabagging and had some point to make?

[Goldstein1984]

180. Is this the part where we both say

"I'm rubber and you're glue, and everything you say bounces off my and sticks to you" and then storm off to separate corners of the playground?

Because if it is, I'd like to skip the "teabagging" nonsense.

[SIMPLYB1980]

183. Then stop acting like a teabagger it's not that hard.

[Goldstein1984]

186. What do you think a teabagger is?

People on DU seem to toss the label "teabagger" around the way Right Wingers toss out "socialist" anytime they want to invalidate an argument.

You attach a picture of Glennn Beck, who is on the other side of the galaxy from me politically. It's a cheap shot.

Yes, teabaggers are activists, but all activists are teabaggers.

Thom Hartmann was singing the praises of teabaggers yesterday, saying that Left Wingers would benefit from using their tactics because at least they are heard, rather than sitting at a terminal perpetually whining.

If this is nothing but a social networking site for liberals, then it should drop the "Underground" and call itself the Democratic Mainstream. So far, I haven't seen much that can lay claim to "underground."

This thread doesn't have any value beyond this point, and we're not going to agree.

Thanks for the interesting conversation.

[BeHereNow]

151. ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!

You are GREAT!

PLEASE keep posting on DU.
WE NEED you.
Perhaps with you we can have an underground again!
BHN

[Goldstein1984]

153. Thanks, it's great to be here.

My beard is grey. I've been a "noob" too many times in my life to even care.

In Alaska we call "noobs" cheechakos. Loosely translated, it means anybody who got off the plane after the person calling them a cheechako.

Getting lots of positive feedback. I enjoy the negative, too.

[BeHereNow]

154. You should feel DEEPLY honored by the numbers of unrec's you have received...

in such a short time.

It means you shook them up.
I'm loving watching you herd cats.
It's so overdue.
I and many others THANK you.

BHN

[Goldstein1984]

155. Remember, I'm a "Noob"

What's an "unrec"? How do I know I have them?

[BeHereNow]

156. Go to the GD page where threads are listed by title.

On the right of each thread you will see
3 columns. Replies/Recs/Views.

At the bottom of each topic, as with yours, at the bottom
of the body of your original post in the left corner there
are options to alert, hide thread and recommend/unrecommend.

Unrecommend is a fairly new and controversial feature among
the DU community.

I think it is a fairly good barometer for identifying
threads that hit the central nerve of "status quo is all we want to know" contingent.

LOL.

Carry on!
I am currently your number one fan!

BHN

[Goldstein1984]

159. I'm flattered.

My philosophy professor once advised our class, "If you're not offending anyone, then you probably aren't saying anything very important."

He would be proud.

I didn't know I was getting involved with the Democratic Domestic Rabbit website.

[BeHereNow]

161. Stick around, not all of us are rabbits. They just shreik more.

And your professor was right.
Want to start the rabbits shreiking?
Post some truth.

Heh-heh.

BHN

[Goldstein1984]

164. Oh...

So that's what rabbits shreiking sound like.

[BeHereNow]

166. Yeah, they don't much like it when you stick sharp sticks down the hole...

or ask them to give up their mushy carrots for some
crispy green let-us DO something of consequence.

BHN

[Goldstein1984]

168. I'm still enjoying the give and take

I marched in anti-Vietnam War protests with my cousin when I was twelve. I was grounded by my father for marching with Cesar Chavez and the United Farm Workers when I was a seventeen. I just crawled out my window and we made sure the tomatoes and lettuce rotted in the fields. The list is long. Directly or indirectly, I prefer activism to talk. I doubt anybody on DU can say anything or make any threats I haven't heard before.

If this is just a social networking site for Liberals, I'm going to get bored quickly anyway. But while I'm here, I'm going to agree when I agree, disagree when I disagree, and in general say what I believe.

Thanks for the support you've shown today. I found at least one like-minded soul.

[varelse]

198. He is the oligarchy's stalking horse

not their poster child.

[azmouse]

15. Travel back in time and post this somewhere in the year 2000

when the Supreme Court chose boosh as pResident and subverted the will of the people.

Maybe someone will care then.

[blogslut]

21. Sigh

While I totally dig the whole "power to the proletariat" thing, it's not like what you're saying is anything that hasn't been said. The people do need to take a more physical role in the workings of their government and take a stand against the machinations of "the man". The things is, the revolutions of times gone by came about due to mass poverty and devastating losses from war. The U.S. isn't in that boat and frankly, I would rather not see us sail there.

[Goldstein1984]

28. Should we wait until we are in that boat to act?

Nobody is original enough to write anything that hasn't already been said. The trick is to keep saying it until somebody listens--until it's being said so many times that it cannot be ignored. The principles are well established and often stated. Current events are just the latest test of those principles.

My concern about where we are now is it's place on the path to where we are going. Financially, I'm very comfortable; I have outstanding medical insurance; I own a home; I have reliable transportation; I'm fortunate to work in a profession that matches my values--the Buddhist "right practice;" and I live in a beautiful place. But millions of other people are suffering. My children's and grandchildren's futures are being mortgaged and compromised. Thousands of the working class are being sent off to war for the interests of the few.

It's enough that losses from war are unnecessary. They need only be devestating to those who directly experience the losses.

[blogslut]

56. There are numerous things you can do

...without having to storm the Bastille. For one, vote and vote often. For another get out and become a part of your community. Donate your services to a clinic or a counseling center. Hell, start your own beneficent fund and dole out small monies to people. You'd be surprised how much a $100.00 grant can change the life of one person or family.

This country is messed up but it's not beyond repair. It's not guillotine time. We have the means to change what's wrong but that change requires tangible effort.

[MineralMan]

76. If you're comfortable, and others are not, then you have work to

do. If your principles involved equality and other such progressive ideas, then you'll do better to spend your time helping others instead of posting on this site. Go and do as you say. We'll do the same. Thanks so much.

[Goldstein1984]

124. Yes, as I wrote in another post...

I've been an activist for decades: United Farm Workers (not a member, just marched with them as a teenager), AFL/CIO, Vietnam protests, DDT, nuclear power plants... When I can't be there, I make sure my money is (e.g. Sea Shepherd Conservation Society).

I'm active now. I protested the International Whaling Commission meetings in Anchorage, Alaska. I think posting on this site is part of activism. Don't underestimate the power of the written word, especially when combined with a willingness to act.

Thanks for some great discussion.

[Kahuna]

25. Ummm...You have mistaken DU for a teabagger site or something. nt

[Goldstein1984]

32. Actually, I was thinking...

that the DU was a site to discuss politics--reform, change.

[timeforpeace]

41. You can say that again.

[MineralMan]

74. Well, that was certainly worth repeating...

[Goldstein1984]

33. Actually, I was thinking...

that the DU was a site to discuss politics--reform, change.

[FarLeftFist]

35. Yes, Democratic politics,reform,and change....

Rarely anarchist politics,reform,and change.

[Goldstein1984]

42. "Anarchist"???

Since when are the methods used to establish this nation, for force social change, to end unjust wars "anarchy." You speak like someone overly comfortable with the status quo. Anarcy and radialism are not the same thing.

There's too much at stake to just keep doing the same ol' thing and expect change.

I notice that you distinguish between "Democratic" (with a capital D) and just plain "democratic." I make that same distinction. One seems to have little to do with the other.

[FarLeftFist]

48. Capital when speaking of the party as opposed to speaking of democracy

And the fact that you seem to be defending teabaggers leads me to believe your idea of dissent would be anything less than peaceful. You should maybe make your acts of dissent more clear. Peaceful demonstrations? Rock on, it's a free country.

[Goldstein1984]

55. Violence??? From my post...

But how do “We the People” we do this without resorting to violence?

How do general stikes, economic boycotts and marching in protest equate with violence.

You must be talking about when the authorities break out the tear gas, rubber bullets and LRADs.

[Kahuna]

87. You want to discuss teabagger activity. Don't try to change it now. nt

[Goldstein1984]

112. Look at Post #7-First mention of teabaggers wasn't me, and...

I never would have brought up the subject of teabaggers. I find them repulsive to watch, especially with Glenn Back leading their charge.

My ONLY defense of teabaggers is that they are being heard--they have an effective tactic and good organizational skills. For good or bad (and in the case of teabaggers, it's bad) being heard is sort of important if you want to change things.

[cali]

30. I wish I had a buck for every time this screed was posted. n/t

[Goldstein1984]

36. I'd just be happy if...

we would stop compromising our principles.

I especially miss the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

39. "There is nothing more American than dissent."

Should I dissent from the OP?

just sayin'

[Goldstein1984]

44. Please do!...

There's nothing less interesting that sitting around listening to or reading from a bunch of people who just agree with each other.

[HuckleB]

57. What is betrayal in a democracy?

Is it not getting what YOU want done every single time?

Yeah, I know we need to work to change the system that's in place, in terms of money and power, but...

What is betrayal in a democracy? What is the definition?

[Goldstein1984]

70. Betrayal is...

Violating the trust of the people.

Violating the principles upon which a nation is founded.

Promising one thing, then doing another.

[HuckleB]

85. Do you not get how meaningless those vague statements are to an actual discussion?

[Goldstein1984]

107. I thought they were obvious, but if you want specifics...

I thought DUers would be familiar enough with the specifics that I could speak in general ("vague") terms, but here you go...

In part...

Making deals with Big Pharma that will keep prescription drug prices many times higher in the U.S. that anyplace else in the country.

Sending tens of thousands of soldiers to fight and die in a pointless war over oil.

Refusing to investigate crimes against humanity committed by the previous administration.

Continuing "Don't ask, don't tell."

Appointing the very people who created the financial collapse to oversee the recovery.

Betraying democratic principles by recognizing an election run by a military dictatorship in Honduras.

Keeping photographs of torture secret.

Continuing with the USA Patriot Act.

Congressman putting the interests of insurance companies, banks, government contractors and the wealthy before the interests of those who elected them.

Betrayal in this case includes decades of deregulation, tax cuts for the wealthy, privatization, cuts in social spending, failure to respond to the victims of Katrina, imperialism, and the Milton Friedman/Ronald Reagan/Bill Clinton/George Bush I and II trickle-down bullshit.

[HuckleB]

135. In other words, you think everyone buys that out-of-context propaganda?

I criticize the administration for many of those things, but I am not foolish enough to think it was going to be different, or that it ever was, or ever will be. I live in a democracy. And you don't seem to understand what that means.

[Goldstein1984]

143. Evidently, it means

that democratically elected representatives have no obligation to fairly represent those who elected them.

It means that the 1% of U.S. citizens who have as much wealth as the bottom 95% also have a disproportionate say in government.

It means, as George Orwell wrote, "some are more equal than others."

Is that what you're getting at?

I like my democratic government a little more democracy than mixed in.

[HuckleB]

204. You're offering mere opinion.

Propaganda is not a definition.

[Goldstein1984]

71. Betrayal is...

Violating the trust of the people.

Violating the principles upon which a nation is founded.

Promising one thing, then doing another.

[haele]

59. I see too many people talking about "America" and not "the United States"

Everyone has their own "private" America. My America is different than that of the people outside my immediate circle. Heck, to tell the truth, I have several "Americas",the one I support at work, the one I believe in deep inside myself, and the one I live in for my family. I can't control the America that is part of the substance of my job, and too many times I need to compromise my inner America for the one that I have to live in supporting my family.
And "my America" - the way I live in this country and relate to the laws, society, opportunities, and general governance of it is drastically different than the "America" of my brother, my parents, my in-laws, my neighbors, the owner of the house we rent, my boss - yet still, we all have to find a way to modify our private reality to be able to interact with that of everyone else around us.

It's the United States of America, not just "America". Too many times, the term "America" relates to a person's "team", clan or worldview, with no willingness to accept that my "America" may be totally alien to someone else's "America".

That's what makes our country so special - and so vulnerable. And how we practice politics, the art of ensuring that everyone can have rights and opportunities to advance their individual lives is critical to the welfare of it.

I'd support activities that don't require that those who are not directly involved with either the problem or solution have to make more sacrifices than those who are part of the problem.

Haele

[Goldstein1984]

80. WOW! That's well put...

I can agree with everything you wrote and still agree with everything in my original post.

"America" is just shorthand. To me, it includes the Americas--North and South. I'm very involved with the lives of friends "south of the border," including those that I've never met but worry about. Out nation's policies have victimized the people of Central and South America as fully and centuries under the Spanish Empire did.

I too compromise in my everyday life, and my life is very good where family and economics are concerned. But I worry about the dysfunction in government. The loss of representative government. The quest for empire. In short, things not only could be better, I believe they are getting worse.

Contrary to what many replies imply, I am not calling for violent revolution, I'm calling for nonviolent and decisive action to send a clear message to government that the people are sovereign.

[haele]

117. Understood, I was just rambling. It's difficult to determine what the path out is

There's a lot of trees in the forest, and it seems as if too many people are wanting to burn great swaths down to carve out their part of the forest.

From my perspective, the only revolutions that successfully benefit the greatest constituency for the longest period of time are when both a governing or leadership body and an educated middle class hammer out the details of the new government. There must be a legitimacy - an actual plan to spread and share governance amongst all the interests involved - in place to actually end the revolution instead of having careening decades of temporary strong men and ideological juntas dedicated to grabbing as much profit and power as they can.
When people who are starving or have been seriously oppressed revolt, it never turns out well - the violence that results is because are too many reasons that can be used to justify out of hand elimination of any former members or opposition to "the revolution" - or anyone else that can be accused of being "in cahoots" with the oppresses.

I'd like to see "little social revolutions" such as the ones that the Presidents Roosevelt, Truman, and Johnson - and even Harding and Hoover feebly attempted that were dedicated to the wellbeing of the country as a whole than the one that began our nation.
But revolutions like that require forceful figureheads willing to use their bully pulpits to sway not only the lawmakers and administration, but the public.
In 1932, the United States of America was only one or two months from total anarchy and Civil War - not between regions, but between Classes - a Civil War that would have been similar to what happened in Spain just a few years later. The "Bully Pulpit", sacrifice of corporate interests, jobs and public recovery programs were pretty much the only things that saved us.
We aren't as bad off as we ended up in 1930/1931 - probably because of smoke and mirrors - but if those in positions of leadership (political and corporate) can't seem to get past private interests and pots of cash, we'll just finally careen over the edge that was avoided in 1932.

Haele

[Goldstein1984]

120. Rambling is good

Your post is right on the money. Action now, before things get worse (and I believe they are going to do that) is much preferable to the alternative.

I lived through the 60s. Voters didn't obtain civil rights, elected officials trying to pacify a pissed off nation caved out of fear.

The United Farm Workers didn't succeed by voting, they succeeded by letting crops rot in the field.

DDT was banned, in part, because people stopped buying anything sprayed with the pesticide.

Activism and "little social revolutions" be revolutions and civil wars. It's all in the timing.

[yurbud]

77. do what the wealthy do--find choke points and bottlenecks, where we have the power and they are

vulnerable.

For example, in THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED, the rich were terrified that Chavez had their maids spying on them. He would have been wise to have done so.

[Goldstein1984]

83. Disaster Capitalism--The Shock Doctrine

The economic and political elite used 9/11 to justify going to war. They used Katrina to get what one congressman referred to as the "human debris" out of New Orleans. They are using the "War on Terror" to maintain a perpetual state of fear by which they can justify actions that a nation at peace would never tolerate.

Lets send a little economic shock their way! For example, stop buying "stuff." Stop being a nation of consuming sheep. When consumption makes of 70% of the GDP, that will send a message.

[yurbud]

98. they potentially had a shock with subprime crisis, but instead of putting a pillow over their face

and finishing them off, Obama gave them CPR.

[Goldstein1984]

110. Obama is better than the alternative...

Believe me, I live in Alaska so I understand what a disaster McCain/Palin would have been. Maybe worse than Bush/Cheney was.

I'm only arguing for some decisive action to shake up the "Powers That Be" and make them into "The Powers That Should Be."

We've been incredibly damaged by 8 years of Bush/Cheney, and they haven't gone away.

I just wish Obama would distance himself a bit more from "busines as usual."

[yurbud]

142. that is damning him with extremely faint praise, saying he is better our worst president ever

or Palin who would have tried to outdo Bush for the worst title.

[Goldstein1984]

146. Best president in my lifetime, and I voted for him, but...

still a disappointment. And yet, he still has promise.

He lost me selling out to Big Pharma.

He lost me with Afghanistan.

He lost me with Honduras.

He lost me with continuation of USA Patriot Act provisions.

I just want to get his attention.

[yurbud]

158. Jimmy Carter was better on foreign policy and LBJ on domestic

[Goldstein1984]

160. I think so too...

LBJ screwed the pooch in Vietnam.

Carter did the same with Iran.

Carter makes a great former president, though. I don't always agree with him, but he walks the talk.

[yurbud]

163. the mistake in Iran was in 1953. the blowback just happened to come on carter's watch

[Goldstein1984]

165. Tangled webs

Indonesia in 1964
Chile in 1973
Venezuela in 2002
Honduras in 2009
I know I'm missing a bunch

There has to be something coming from Costa Rica sometime soon.

[treestar]

79. If it's your interest, I'm sure THAT special interest is OK

[Goldstein1984]

88. My special interest is...

That the people take the nation back from the economic and political elite.

That soldiers not die for nothing.

That my children's and grandchildren's futures not be mortgaged to China.

That the 4th, 5th and 6th amendments be restored.

That 40,000 people not die for lack of health insurance.

That so many children not go to bed hungry.

[treestar]

95. Those are a bit vague

Everyone would agree with them.

Even Freepers. Well, maybe not with the last two.

[Goldstein1984]

99. That's the problem...

everyone agrees, but the problems are getting worse.

I don't understand what's vague about feeding children, preventing war, or any of the other stuff. They seem like very clear objectives to me. All we need are representatives that do more than talk about them. All we need is an electorate that demands they do something more than talk about them.

I'm beginning to thing that the problem is really people with full bellies not worrying too much about people with empty bellies, people with jobs not worrying about the unemployed, people with insurance not worrying about those without, people without a stake in war not worrying about those with a stake...

It's clear to me now. Democrat or Republican; Right or Left; Liberal or Conservative--Adam Smith and Milton Friedman were right. It's all about self interest.

That's fine. If things get worse, we'll lose the opportunity for peaceful action.

[BeHereNow]

89. Who the fuck is un-rec'ing this thread? Did Karl make a call? Welcome to DU btw.

Excellent thread.
Thanks for putting it so succinctly.

I regret to say however, I don't think the
majority of US citizens have a clue.
They know something is terribly wrong,
but look how many of them actually believe
it is the fault of the gays, or the abortionists
or some other easy target.
As long a magical thinking is still the norm,
I don't see the majority rallying together any time soon.
More likely that they will turn on one another.

BHN

[Goldstein1984]

105. Thanks. That's become apparent

I just feel like I need to say something or I'm part of the problem.

I'm old, from the Saul Alinksy generation. I've been an activist for years. I've struck, I've sung songs, I've marched with signs, I've boycotted, and I've even done a bit of the anarchy thing (Statue of limitations long run out). I've never seen this much unawareness of how bad things are. The 60s were better. I think it's that old shifting baseline problem--the fly thinks the dung pile is the sweetest place in the world because it's never been anyplace else.

In fact, I think you are correct. Too much apathy. Too much misinformation. Too much comfort with the status quo. Too much impotence. This nation isn't bipolar, it's multi-polar--if the bullets were ever to fly it would be in every direction and nobody would win.

This has been great. I've been following DU for months. I got nothing unexpected from this post that I didn't expect. But I had a blast working it. Agree or disagree, these are a lot of great folks. I'm waiting for my donation to clear (Paypal) so I can take advantage of all the features.

Thank you for the welcome.

Dave

[BeHereNow]

108. Bottom line my friend... and you already know this,

people get the government they deserve.

Sadly, so do the rest of us.

Glad you decided to join up on DU.
I, for one, am glad you are here.

I knew this thread would bring out the delusional/magical thinkers
and I admire your conviction in posting it.


Again, WELCOME. Some of us DO "get it."

BHN

[Blue-Jay]

111. I don't know what "taking our nation back" even means.

Ask a teabagger, and then ask a liberal. You'll get two entirely different answers.

Whose nation are we talking about? Our nation has never been awesome to begin with, so what's there to "take back"? I'd rather move our nation forward in a direction that guarantees equality for every citizen, and also guarantees equal treatment for rich and poor alike.

There's nothing to "take back". We need to move forward. "Taking back" implies regression in my eyes. I don't want that.

[Goldstein1984]

113. "Taking back" is just...

regaining truly representative government. Of course, that battle has been going on since 1787, but we've been losing ground of late.

If you believe we already have that, then there's nothing to discuss.

Taking back isn't going back, it's an essential step in moving forward.

Our government has been captured by corporate interests. The company I work for sends its president and CEO to Washington routinely to meet privately with elected officials. The result was that major legislation that would have been detrimental to our company was dropped. Do you know any average voters with that kind of influence?

That's what I mean by "taking back."

Yes, representative government is an ideal, but so are democracy and human rights. Care to set them aside?

[Blue-Jay]

115. Fair enough. I don't think we disagree.

It's just that phrase (that fucking "take our nation back" phrase....) raises my hackles. It's used far too often by assholes who miss the "simpler days" of racism, homophobia, class warfare, and outright idiocy of the past. I'm no big fan of regressive policies as you can probably tell.

Peace. I apologize for jumping on one particular phrase that usually pisses me off.

:hi:

[Goldstein1984]

122. I understand. I completely forgot who...

else uses that phrase. It pisses me off when I hear them use it too.

I think a lot of the teabagging and stonewalling in Congress is intended to salvage as much of those terrible times as possible.

My wife is Alaska Native, and nobody should have to experience what she did while growing up in Alaska. If I saw that kind of regression, I'm afraid I would have to put my pacifism on hold.

No apologies necessary. That's what the give and take is about.

Peace,
Goldstein1984

[Blue-Jay]

127. See? This is what happens when thoughtful people bother to talk rationally.

Feels good.

[Goldstein1984]

114. This has been fantastic!

Thanks for the great replies and debate. I watched DU for months before deciding to join in. For 35 years I've been more of a marcher than a writer. Not a mistake!

I would recommend a little more substance and a little less rhetorical flourish and semantics in replies.

I've debated politics and science for more than three decades, and substance is always more interesting than tactics. In fact, tactics only really matter when they accompany substance. (Outside of Congress, of course.) A logical fallacy isn't very important if it doesn't fundamentally undermine an argument. Few have formal training in logic, and many see logical fallacies where there are none.

And a general statement shouldn't be equated with a vague statement. If you want specifics, ask for them. The preamble of the Declaration of Independence (no, I'm not equating myself with Thomas Jefferson) is very general ("vague"), but it's remembered and quoted far more often than the long list of specific grievances that followed it. None of the amendments in the Bill of Rights is very specific, but that is where their power rests.

Take if from a guy who has graded a lot of papers--DUers are above average.

[BeHereNow]

119. Damn, I think I'm in love.

Smart people have that effect on me.

BHN blowing kisses. shameless flirt that she is.

[Goldstein1984]

121. Seriously, this has been a pleasure. Thanks!

Guess I've been looking for love in all the wrong places.

My wife of 31 years is really going to be surprised.

Thanks!

[BeHereNow]

123. So will my husband...

;)

BHN

[PuraVidaDreamin]

125. We need DC to come to a halt- day after day after day- There is action planned!

And there is a plan of action in motion to start that very scenario. Peace of the Action was born from the fact that marches with permits on weekend can draw many, but unless
you are a right wing funded group of misguided zombies you won't get coverage from the corporate media.

So we will turn to peaceful civil resistance to start demonstrating our long suffering frustrations. We take to the streets of DC- 1000 willing participants per day-
committed to shutting down various aspects of the capital of capitalism. On weekdays! While congress is in session. We will be arrested, We will clog up their jails,
and court systems beyond anything they have ever experienced.

Check out Peace of the Action- http://peaceoftheaction.org/ We begin this spring in March, the timing to coincide with the 7th anniversary of the United States
illegal and immoral invasion, and on-going occupation of Iraq. We are looking for 5000 committed activists to start this action with. We are also looking for
videographers, photographers, and bloggers to bear witness to these planned actions.

For those who are physically unable, or financially unable to attend, we need help spreading the word. If you can donate to the cause, please do.
I'm taking my own vacation time- and my own limited funds to assist in this bold vision, so I can at least tell my children that I tried.

Please consider joining us.

[Goldstein1984]

137. It warms my heart. Finally, a little "underground" in the DU

I was beginning to think I had stumbled onto the Democratic Mainstream, or maybe into a warren of domestic rabbits.

Recommended reading:

"Reveille for Radicals" by Saul Alinsky
"Rules for Radicals" by Saul Alinsky

Maybe listen to John Lennon's "Imagine" once an while.

[gimama]

190. Yea, YOU! FYi,DC rallies tomorrow..

& others around the Nation, ck. out:
www.enduswars.org and
www.afterdowningstreet.org has details/UPdates.
Some really goood speakers, & PEACE actions.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

196. would LOVE to be there

Got a stomach flu at this moment. Ughhhh!

Hope to meet up w/ you sometime

[gimama]

203. I HOPE(!)

You're feeling better:) Pepperment tea is great for stomache/digestive problems & flu.
Anything with ginger helps, too.. Take it easy, & read/watch some goood PEACE Work,on the du & those sites I posted. :hi:

[bvar22]

128. Hey. It works. I recced you back UP to an even Zero.

Looks like the Status Quo Centrist "un-recers" have shot their team wad.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeremy-scahill/rahm-emanuels-think-tanke_b_185203.html

My Wife & I have been "On Strike" since 2006.
We have greatly reduced our "taxable income".
Cashed Out of Wall Street.
Don't pay a mortgage or use credit.
What we can't make ourselves, we buy or barter 2nd Hand/Salvage.

We moved to The Woods, and grow a good percentage of our own food.
We are no longer Good American Consumers.
Next Year, we will consume even LESS.

If The Democratic/Republican Party is going to bail out failed Wall Street Bankers and keep the WARS going, they will do so without our help.
Our focus has become local Humanitarian Issues, and ways to deny funding to Corporate America and their bought politicians.



K&R (back UP to a 0)
:patriot:

[Goldstein1984]

133. That's what I'm talking about

Stop being good little Stepford citizens.

[gimama]

191. I don't envy or covet ANY thing..

except a really fiiine Garden! :) Yours is LOVEly!
And I am also NOT participating in consumption-economy, except for groceries, mostly local/organic..Isn't it a really FREE-ing experience?
I'm looking into starting a Community Garden in my little City, I think I found a location, will need to bring in some goood LIVE dirt.Oh,GOOOD Garden thoughts for a cold Dec.night! Thank You!

[winyanstaz]

138. K & R,,,,,,,,,

face it America...we have been sold out.

[TexasObserver]

140. Recommended, although I don't agree with it entirely.

I think it's worth a read, but kind of excessive and kind of sophomoric.

[Goldstein1984]

147. Thanks Tex. I'm educated as a biologist and engineer...

and I'm an in-the-field activist. Kind of new to this political writing stuff. Hopefully I'll move on to junior or senior level with time.

I also wrote it pretty fast. No time to quote Shakespeare, Twain, Paine or Popeye.

[BeHereNow]

157. Kicking for the late night crowd.

This is one of the best threads I have ever seen on DU!

BHN

[Goldstein1984]

162. I'm having a blast...

not winning any popularity contests, though.

[gimama]

189. Yeah, You are..Goood Work!

& BIG Welcome to DU.. You're a Breathe of FRESH air,& WE needed that!

[Duende azul]

167. Kick

[JamesA1102]

169. You sound like a teabagger

Too bad the left didn't turn out to protest the way the teabaggers have. Maybe if more around here took action instead of just griping Healthcare reform with a strong public option would have passed by now.

[Goldstein1984]

174. Teabagger? What's with "Teabagger"

I've been reading that all day. Since when is activism, especially liberal and progressive activism, teabagging?

"Teabagger!" seems to be the Liberal version of "Socialist!" Just toss out that label anytime you need to invalidate an argument without having to rebut the argument.

It's too bad the Left isn't using teabagger tactics. They could do a much more respectable job, and maybe give activism a good name again. This is like in the 80s when the Right hijacked the American flag and gave it a bad name. Now they've hijacked activism.

I'm a Liberal--a Democratic Socialist. And yes, I prefer activism to words, unless the words presage activism.

Democratic "Underground"? I'm beginning to think I've blundered into a Liberal social networking site.

[JamesA1102]

179. That was the point of my post.

If more took action around here instead of just griping all the time, maybe we would help get things done. But then some people they wouldn't have anything to grip about anymore.

[Goldstein1984]

181. And yet

I was pounced upon and labeled a teabagger for daring to suggest nonviolent economic action to shake things up a bit.

Even Thom Hartmann is saying the Left should be copying the teabagger's passion. They are being heard on all the networks. We're being read on blogs scattered around the Internet.

[JamesA1102]

185. Not pounced upon.

You're taking an observation and spinning in the most negative way.

[BeHereNow]

192. Yes "pounced upon" by the usual suspects.

BHN

[JamesA1102]

193. "Usual Suspects"????

A little paranoid there, huh.

[BeHereNow]

194. No, just observant of patterns. n/t

bhn

[JamesA1102]

195. Nice dodge nt.

[BeHereNow]

197. Nice try.

bhn

[raccoon]

182. Off to greatest with you! nt

[dusmcj]

187. fuck hunger strikes. we hurt THEM by not participating in their system

no assumption of debt

no overconsumption

rather, an active focus on reducing consumption, reducing waste, buying only well-formed useful products which have the least environmental impact

no breeding like flies and a strengthening of sexual freedom by absolute support for contraception and abortion. The slavers for centuries have kept the people in thrall by mystifying the wonders of making babies. All it does is provide an impoverished and thereby captive workforce.

no mentality for ourselves or our children that our purpose is to be economic consumers and producers

rather, an understanding that the people have primacy, starting with the individual who has inherent rights and that society, business and government all exist only to serve the people - if they fail to then they will be changed or replaced.

and yes, a general strike or two, accompanied by mass demonstrations in America's largest cities, would be a good PR move.

But the core message is as you noted, hit them where it counts, in their pocketbooks.

The retardates under Bush 1 and his CIA Mouseturds of the Universe replaced the industrial economy centered on the working and middle classes producing output which served the public interest, into a slaver economy where the masses produce in order to create cash flows which can be skimmed for marginal returns by the wealthy. Yes, you work for the good of others, if you're not careful.

Just say no.

[Goldstein1984]

188. That's it in a nutshell

But about that hunger strike thing...

I was hoping to lose a few pounds in the process.

[dusmcj]

205. got it. but if you've got the discipline, do it privately; the pissants would crow you were 'weak'

since the clownass class lives on the basis of (hand) gesture politics and poses struck, it's important to note that we have no reason to act like prisoners in our own country. The shitlickers would like to con us in that regard, but we can provide them with some enlightenment.

[WonderGrunion]

199. I already did in 2008. My President is doing fine now.

Thank you very much.

[upi402]

200. Which bank do you own?

pffft

[WonderGrunion]

201. Funny you should ask. I belong to a credit union.

We are all owners of our "bank". It was founded by the local IBEW workers of Bangor Hydro Electric Company too.

[Goldstein1984]

206. No free ride

He's my president too. I voted for him. He seemed honorable, and he said what I wanted to hear.

He gets four years to honor his commitments. If he doesn't, I'll vote against him and we can start over.

During that four year, the pressure stays on.

I send him my own "State of the Union Address" weekly. My last one said:

Dear President Obama;

You really screwed the pooch with your decision on Afghanistan. It's going to haunt you. It's going to haunt the nation.

And surrounding yourself with the economists who helped create the mess we're in isn't impressing many people. Everyone's tired after three decades of trickledown bullshit.

Respectfully submitted,
Et cetera