you won't believe why NYC erased bike lanes

[ensho]

http://jonathanturley.org/2009/12/10/new-york-city-erases-bike-lands-to-appease-hasidic-men-who-object-to-seeing-women-in-bike-shorts/#more-18219



New York City Erases Bike Lanes to Appease Hasidic Men Who Object to Seeing Women in Bike Shorts


There is an interesting controversy in Brooklyn after the city yielded to the Hasidic community in sandblasting off bike lanes on roads. Hasidic leaders complained that they are having trouble obeying their religious law forbidding them from staring at members of the opposite sex with women biking around in shorts. Bicycle advocates have been trying to repaint the lanes.

The Hasidic community has long viewed this enclave as their special area, even though other families and artists have moved in recently. That has caused trouble with the Shomrim Patrol, a Hasidic neighborhood watch group. The Shomrim recently apprehended two cycling advocates who were repainting the lane and called the police. No charges were filed but the bikers were prevented from repainting the lane.

I find it incredible that the city would yield to such demands by a religious group to erase bike lanes. A Department of Transportation spokesman said: “We will continue to work with any community on ways we can make changes to our streets without compromising safety.” However, this is a religious-based objection to women who are not covered. Yet, reports indicate that Mayor Bloomberg wanted to appease the Hasidic community before his recently close election.

Hasidic leaders say that the cyclists endanger families and children. However, this is not the view of the city in creating these lanes and they are found in every major city. The real objection appears to be their lifestyle and the rigid religious beliefs of this sect. It is a clearly improper decision that uses city resources to enforce values of a single religious group.
-snip-
----------------------


Bloomberg should have his chins kicked

and the Hasidic should keep their religion at home, keep it out of the public streets.

and the bikers should keep on repainting the lanes

[SoCalDem]

1. Perhaps those religious freaks would be more "at home" somewhere else

or maybe they should just avert their eyes:)

[Renew Deal]

2. The xenophobes have broken out on DU like a rash.

[SoCalDem]

3. have some Cortaid, and a nap for your rash

:P

[Spider Jerusalem]

8. Which xenophobes?

Xenophobes like these Hasidic Jews who don't want to see women in shorts?

[Renew Deal]

26. Nope

The ones like the ones I described.

[Spider Jerusalem]

47. Ahh, I see....

so you don't think there's anything at all wrong with members of a religious minority in a secular society expecting that society to conform to their values?

[truedelphi]

174. These are public streets and the people who live in that community

Get state and Federal aid for the streets to be paved.

Enough said.

[D23MIURG23]

389. Of course not. Its our job as "tolerant" liberals to bend over backwards for thier lunacy. nt

[Tesha]

414. Sooner or later we will realize that the religiously insane are, in fact, insane.

And it doesn't matter what religion the insane are subscribing to.

Tesha

[rd_kent]

402. The only thing you described was a generic rash. Perhaps you should have a doctor look at that.

Who are these xenophobes? You described nothing.

[dusmcj]

40. yawn. choose: a modern society or a sloppy mess that includes those who don't want a modern society

the two are mutually exclusive. If we fail to make cultural choices and then reject their complement, we will fail. 'Inclusion' is not an absolute good, only an occasionally appropriate antidote to unwarranted exclusion.

[struggle4progress]

290. Turley citing the NY Post citing an anonymous source doesn't prove much

[pnwmom]

335. Just google and you'll find more. This is from New York Magazine.

The holy war between Williamsburg bicyclists and Williamsburg orthodox Jews over a bike lane on Bedford Avenue has turned into a battle of nighttime guerrilla-painting. A few days after the city relocated a stretch of Bedford's designated bike lanes last week, a group of bicyclists decided to repaint the lanes themselves overnight. Victory! Short-lived and easily negated victory, it turns out! Because last night the repainted lane was once again removed by the Department of Transportation.
Meanwhile, in Brooklyn Heights, another feud between religious types and bikers is heating up over police indifference to churchgoers parking in the bike lane during services. Worshippers don't think it's a big deal — they're trying to pray to God over there, hello? — but, obviously, bicyclists don't sympathize. The reason religion and bicyclists have a hard time getting along, it seems, is that bicyclists are simply more concerned with a secure path down the street than a secure path to salvation.


Read more: Religion and Bikes Do Not Mix -- Daily Intel http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2009/12/religion_and_bikes_do_not_mix.html#ixzz0ZSgrYsUd

[struggle4progress]

411. ... The Department of Transportation told The Brooklyn Paper this week that the Bedford Avenue bike

lane was eliminated because cyclists have been given a superior alternative: the two-way protected bike lane on Kent Avenue, two avenues to the west of Bedford ...
December 3, 2009
Williamsburg–Greenpoint–Bushwick / Perspective / Editorial
The city was wrong to remove the Bedford Avenue bike lane
The Brooklyn Paper
http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories/32/48/32_48_bike_lane_editorial.html?comm=1

I spent an hour or so googling this yesterday, before objecting the allegation in the OP is just "Turley citing the NY Post citing an anonymous source." You merely provide a link repeating the allegation, with no source! In my world, that's repeating rumors, not really progress. New York has lots of people, who say lots of things; with lots of people, you expect to find some jerks, walking, biking, driving, or otherwise. I suppose NYC's bike-car conflict has some importance, but I've seen no evidence of any Hasidic conspiracy here

[dusmcj]

417. thank G-d all those luscious spandex-covered asses won't be triggering orgies among the Hasidim /nt

[struggle4progress]

419. As I indicated in #294, parking is probably the real issue. From the 4 Sept 09 Forward:

Brooklyn’s Bicycle Man Uses Two Wheels To Bring Hasids and Hipsters Together
By Nathaniel Popper
Published August 26, 2009, issue of September 04, 2009
... The local attitudes surfaced last fall when the city proposed putting new bike lanes through Williamsburg to accommodate the many young, secular residents who use bicycles to get around. The Hasidic community immediately opposed the lanes, citing the reduced parking they would cause ... http://www.forward.com/articles/112918/?FORM=ZZNR2

[Raineyb]

426. They can SAY anything they want but if they expect to be believed they're going to have to

come up with a better excuse than that. They do not use the parking areas to make up the bike lanes they narrow the driving lanes.

[struggle4progress]

436. These New York drivers seem to regard the bike lanes as using parking space:

http://nyc.mybikelane.com.nyud.net:8090/post/index/11245
http://nyc.mybikelane.com.nyud.net:/post/index/11243
http://nyc.mybikelane.com.nyud.net:/post/index/11122
http://nyc.mybikelane.com.nyud.net:/post/index/10783
http://nyc.mybikelane.com.nyud.net:/post/index/10779

It's true that sometimes the bike lanes are between car lanesw and parking spaces; but sometimes the bike lanes are curbside

[Raineyb]

441. All your pictures are in Manhattan. The area in question is Brooklyn

and the bike lanes there are not set against the curb in that matter, there's a car width's worth of space before the markings for the bike lane. That's for the street side parking. The parking argument is bullshit.

[struggle4progress]

442. That a political argument is bullshit, I will readily believe. And so I will also readily

believe that the "evil hasidim are behind the relocation of the bike lane" is also bullshit. It's too common across the US for idiots in cars to fly into rages about bicyclists. It's easy enough to see that, across the entire US, nitwits in cars often have little respect for bicyclists or bike lanes

It's also easy enough to discover that the bike route relocated from Bedford Ave to Kent Ave still goes through a hasidic area -- which shoots the "evil hasidim are behind the relocation of the bike lane" theory to bits

On average, I frankly wouldn't expect New York's hasidic community to be either more enlightened or less enlightened than other New Yorkers about bicyclists or bike lanes: exactly the same social forces that lead various other drivers to be hostile to bicyclists and bike lanes are likely to produce some hasidic drivers hostile to bicyclists and bike lanes

Here, incidentally, are some photos of the Kent Ave bike lane next to the curb and blocked by some parked cars last week:

http://gothamist.com.nyud.net:8090/attachments/bmuessig/2009_12_kentavenuebikelane.jpg

[taterguy]

440. How many replies would a thread about bike lanes v. parking places get?

[struggle4progress]

443. It would certainly need to be packaged correctly to generate interest: "Save the dinosaurs!"

is a phrase I first encountered last week (when refusing a plastic bag) -- and I hoping it might be witty enough to recycle into something useful -- but so far I'm still afraid that "Save the dinosaurs!" would only really help the wrong side

What we really need, of course, is a national initiative for separated bikeways, with a nice curb between the bikes and the engines, to encourage clowns in their motorized suits-of-armor not to aim at the poor unprotected cyclists

[mitchum]

63. I guess you're right...since they didn't have bicycles in fucking ancient times

It appears those black-clad scolds need to be more embracing of other cultures.

[Raineyb]

77. I think they should be told that the city and indeed the enclaves in which they live

are populated by secular people who are not bound by their religion and that the government ought not cater to such a ridiculous request on religious grounds.

Believe me this is NOT the first time the Hasidim have clashed with the rest of the community and it won't be the last.

[AlbertCat]

260. The xenophobes have broken out on DU like a rash.

The only "phobes" are the Hasidic "we can't even control our lust" fools.... the caligynephobes!

[Deep13]

325. These guys live in NYC. So it's not xenophobia.

And yeah, folks whose religious prejudices are at odds with a free, open and modern society should either change their minds, move or be ignored.

[dusmcj]

418. folks whose religious prejudices are at odds with a free, open and modern society should say bu-bye.

bravo

[pnwmom]

336. No, those who believe in civil rights for all object to having their rights to use

the public roads limited by other people for religious reasons.

[DainBramaged]

74. They aren't freaks, they are ultra-Orthodox Jews who have a different belief system than you or I

since when did DU become intolerant of other's viewpoints?

[Raineyb]

79. When it interferes with the goings on of our secular government.

The removal of a bike lane in order to accommodate the religious sensitivities of a religious group is not acceptable. We have bike lanes on streets that are narrow as hell these days but a major thoroughfare has it removed due to religious considerations? That is not acceptable and the response of the government should have been "You've got to be shitting me."

[Sebastian Doyle]

82. It would seem like the Hasidics are the ones being intolerant here.

Within their own homes and synagogues, they have the right to insist on whatever dress codes they wish, and presumably, anyone who is willing to live by their religious/cultural rules would be cool with that.

However, they don't have a right to control the public streets, or discourage the use of alternative (and green) transportation in a huge city where cars are impractical.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

160. That's right...they don't have a right to control the PUBLIC streets

Some people just don't understand what "public" means.

[RufusTFirefly]

269. That's because there's so little PUBLIC left

And that's not an accident, I fear.

:cry:

[Nay]

236. Thank you, Doyle. I am aghast at the # of ppl here (are they pub

infiltrators or something?) who think that such religious demands should even be given the time of day with regard to public streets, public access, and people who do not share their views and simply want to pass by on the STREET. How different is this from all the Muslim burka nuts who want all women, Muslim or not, to cover up??

[connecticut yankee]

247. If I'm not mistaken

they (the Hasidim) blocked the streets in Monsey, NY on Saturdays so cars couldn't drive through the town.

They are as bad as the Taliban.

[snagglepuss]

267. +1,000,000

[csziggy]

277. I'm surprised the Hasidics have not torn up the sidewalks to prevent seeing women walk down them

In "immodest attire" such as knee length dresses. Only marginally :sarcasm:

[mitchum]

86. So, you would be cool with Jehovah Witnesses demanding the removal of the blood bank...

down the street from where they live?

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

155. Yeah, I'd be cool with that demand

... as long as the city ignored it. Cities shouldn't be governed by religious zealots.

:hi:

Heck, I demand single-payer health care, and an end to wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. And I used to demand and end to the war in Vietname. I'm used to having my demands ignored.

[snake in the grass]

111. Probably...

...when those viewpoints are based on Bronze Age, regressive, and misogynistic superstitions, that have no place in a secular society. If they don't have themselves under control, if their faith is so weak that a woman on a bicycle is a threat to them, they should either look the other way, stay at home, or move to a country where they can live according to their doctrine to their heart's content. What for you is simply another viewpoint, is, in fact, just another attempt to chip away at the wall of separation of church and state. They should not be given one centimeter, not a single one.

[DainBramaged]

116. So a few thousand Orthodox Jews in NY are a threat to you?

[snake in the grass]

123. A few thousand religious fanatics...

...of any belief with enough leverage in the affairs of the state are a threat to us all. Bike lanes serve a real purpose. Just because they are gone doesn't mean the bikes will stop coming, and, yes, there will still be women riding through wearing shorts (oh, the humanity!). Now, there may be an increase in accidents, injuries, and deaths just so these fanatics won't have to suffer a boner. Good call!

[DainBramaged]

125. Whatever, threads like this bring out the most intolerant on DU

it's eyeopening, ESPECIALLY on the eve of Hanukkah.

[snake in the grass]

126. Here's a hint:

not accepting intolerance is not being intolerant. I have no problem with what they choose to believe or how they want to live their lives. I do have a problem with them attempting to force others to submit as well. I grew up in a secular Jewish home and am an atheist. Perhaps you want to paint me as a bigoted, narrow-minded anti-semite, but that's not going to work. This has nothing to do with Judaism. It has to do with keeping religion out of the workings of a secular society.

Happy Holidays!

Added: see post 31

[DainBramaged]

127. I can paint you with JUST as wide a brush as you paint others

it has EVERYTHING to do with intolerance here on DU, and if that escapes you, so sorry, becoming jaded with your religion is no fault of mine.

[snake in the grass]

143. I'm not jaded with my religion.

I have no religion, in case you didn't get that. If you think it's acceptable for a secular society to give in to the wishes of a religious group (be they Hasidim, Westboro Baptists, or anti-choice Catholics) and, thereby, restrict the non-believers in their free lives, or, in some cases, actually endanger lives, then you are, indeed, more tolerant than I. However, I see that as no failing on my part.

There really is a double standard within our little community. Last week's news of Catholic Bishops' involvement in writing the health care provisions got many fired up. Now, when a handful of misogynists, in their quest to avoid unwanted boners, impose their views on the general public successfully, limiting women in their freedom and endangering them to boot, I hear calls for tolerance and understanding. Well, it's not going to happen. It's a shame you can't differentiate between not accepting intolerance and actual intolerance. I guess that makes you a better person.

Happy Holidays!

[DainBramaged]

147. unwanted boners.............

Happy this.......

[snake in the grass]

151. Indeed!

A boner is always a happy occasion! After all, I'm not 16 anymore!

:hi:

[Speed8098]

370. You're on the wrong side of this issue

As is anyone who defends the decision to remove these bike lanes.

This isn't about freedom of religion or tolerance, it's about safety and nothing else. I travel the 5 boroughs almost daily for my job and this was a real boneheaded decision. Anyone who doesn't travel these streets shouldn't comment. If you do, you're only commenting out of ignorance of the road conditions that exist in that neighborhood.

It's just another case of the squeaky wheel getting the grease. (pun intended)

(on edit: corrected puncuation)

[snagglepuss]

280. I get incensed by any suggestion that intolerance be given

a pass because its religious dogma.

[tkmorris]

176. You amaze me

You have an amazing ability to completely ignore the point, no matter what point, when responding to others posts.

People can have any viewpoint they want. When they attempt to force OTHER people to change their actions to fit their viewpoint they are the ones being intolerant. This is something any elementary school student can understand and yet... WHOOSH.

[tkmorris]

177. I am going to start a religion that abhors clothing

And force everyone to bike past my house naked.

[snagglepuss]

281. LOL. That is hysterical.. Thanks for the laugh. nt

[Altoid_Cyclist]

373. I'll do it, but it won't be pretty!

Just don't point and laugh.

[Ikonoklast]

413. Ahhh! You must be a 'Chafist'.

Burn, heretic!

[olegramps]

421. I don't look good naked anymore!

Now, you won't want to subject your children to that awful sight.

[20score]

258. Thank you!!! That should be obvious and it infuriates me when people don't get it.

Whether they are on the left or the right.

[reggie the dog]

203. how is saying that a religious group should not impose their

social mores on others, in the USA, a country where church and state are seperated, is intolerant? Americans are free to look at fit women in shorts. We do not live in Saudi Arabia, or Iran where women are not allowed to wear shorts in public.

[LiberalEsto]

388. Hey, there's a solution!

Perhaps the Hasidim can move to Saudi Arabia where they won't have to look at "improperly dressed" women.

:sarcasm:

[peacetalksforall]

245. Even if they bought every building in the area in order to be protected from

shorts-wearing cyclists, they still couldn't make that demand and make it stick because the streets and sidewalks are public. Bloomberg should know that. If he let this go through he is wrong. The cyclists have a right. But, if asked, they should consider some solution or concession to their dress or their route - voluntarily. Good neighbor policies. The best kind.

[JackInGreen]

319. and honestly

even if they got an easement to the curb, it's not going to a do a lick of good, and it'll be more dangerous.

[ldf]

435. well, i don't know for sure, here, but

if bloomberg hadn't received the hasidic (hmmm, spellcheck said misspelled...) vote, he may have lost the election...

:shrug:

[pnwmom]

387. Why can't you see that it is THEIR intolerance -- of other people's freedom --

that is the problem?

They don't own any of the public streets of Brooklyn. They shouldn't be trying to control them with their religious laws. Separation of church and state -- remember that concept?

[rd_kent]

406. Are you tolerant of Teabaggers? Are you tolerant of Republicans? Are you tolerant of Neocons?

Are you? If so, then please stop posting your anti-teabagger, anti-republican and anti-neocon filth, because by YOUR rationale, we should tolerate the intolerant, right?

[SOS]

412. You actually buy the "religious" rationale?

Does the Great Pumpkin visit your house on Halloween?
Meanwhile, back in the real world...

Blocking a NYC bike lane with your car is a $115 fine.
The Satmars were pissed about being hammered with tickets for constantly double-parking in the bike lane.
Bloomberg was facing re-election. His internal polls showed it would be a tight race.
A backroom deal was struck to trade Satmar votes in exchange for the removal of the bike lanes.

Since this was raw, ugly vote-buying they had to come up with some "religious" reason for the deal.
The best they could come up with was "scantily-clad women".

:rofl:

PS: If anyone actually believes the "girls on bikes" excuse, I have a bridge near Williamsburg for sale.

[reggie the dog]

202. why should their religious problem with athletic women in shorts

prevent me from looking at athletic women in shorts, in a free country, where there is a seperation of church and state?

[AlbertCat]

266. Whatever, threads like this bring out the most intolerant on DU

You seem to be one of them.

And what the fuck does Hanukkah have to do with women in bike shorts?

You are fucking ridiculous.

[harmonicon]

345. it's like this, see:

umm.... if you ask for bike shorts for Hanukkah, you get stoned .... or something.... or maybe it's that they don't have pockets, so you clearly are not riding a bike in order to light a menorah (no matches or lighters in the pockets that aren't there).... ok, no. Those were the best I could come up with. Sorry.

[snagglepuss]

275. Spare me that crap. What about their fucking intolerance. nt

[pnwmom]

333. THEY are the ones being intolerant. They literally can't tolerate the sight of women

in shorts, so they're trying to shut down legal bike lanes in PUBLIC roads. This is what the wall of separation of church and state is supposed to prevent.

[Chulanowa]

338. Oh for fuck's sake

These Hasidic dudes who feel threatened by the sight of females in bike shorts and demand the city REMOVE PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION LANES to assuage their own fear of the sight of lycra-clad buttocks is the example of intolerance here.

Of course, the idea you seem to be laboring under, that because they're Jewish they should get their way, is another good example of intolerance on this thread.

[Confusious]

344. So we should give in

and ban every book the fundies want banned. In the name of tolerance. If I don't, I'm being intolerant of their religious views.

It's exactly the same thing.

I have a better idea. How about we all just slit our throats, in the new of tolerance, to save them the trouble.

[JNelson6563]

361. I see none as intolerant as those who want the bike lane closed.

Shame on them!

[HERVEPA]

395. Chanukah has nothing to do with it.

And it's a very minor Jewish holiday,

[rd_kent]

404. How does removing the bike lanes solve the problem they say they have?

Will women in shorts still ride by?

[Dorian Gray]

211. The bike lanes are gone

but the bikers are not banned from the streets. They are still allowed to ride there. They still will. The Hasidic men will still have to try not to look at them. It is what it is.

I hate those god-forsaken bike lanes. I got a ticket the morning after they re-did them because I didn't realize what was once a legal spot no longer is because of a bike crossing. Ugh. The city doesn't give a shit about my feelings on the matter, though.

[kestrel91316]

425. What the heck is wrong with somebody that they would get a boner from

watching a clothed woman ride by on a bike, anyway??? Ick.

[backscatter712]

192. If you're riding a bicycle through that particular neighborhood, yes.

They're removing road markings intended to improve safety, forcing bicyclists out in automotive traffic. Yes, I'd say that's a genuine threat to people's lives...

[reggie the dog]

201. They are a threat to liberty

we should be free to look at athletic women in shorts on the main streets

[MH1]

240. A million Orthodox Jews in NY are no threat - IF and ONLY IF

they don't try to restrict the behavior of others in public spaces according to their beliefs (which I find ridiculous, but they are free to hold them).

How is what they did with having a bike lane removed, different from the Taliban telling women they have to wear burkas so they don't cause men to sin?

I find the whole idea that men have to control how women dress because they can't control their own behavior ... well laughable except for the part where they fuck up women's lives.

I will NOT tolerate any man or any so-called "belief system" that treats women as men's property.

Got a problem with that?

[snagglepuss]

283. Well said.

:applause:

[pnwmom]

337. If they are allowed to control PUBLIC roads, yes, that is a threat to all of us.

A very unfortunate precedent.

[bkozumplik]

340. a threat? no

When they start making other people live by their rules, they become an annoyance, not a threat.

[harmonicon]

347. annoying like the Taliban was to Afghans? (nt)

[bkozumplik]

407. no, annoying like

the hasidics getting rid of bike lanes because they dont like to see girls in bike shorts.
Lets not compare that to what the taliban did, theres just no comparison.

[harmonicon]

409. no, there is quite a comparison.

Both involve religious extremists altering the social infrastructure based on their beliefs. At what point, in your mind, does it move from being an annoyance to being oppression?

[skepticscott]

376. I seem to remember 10 fundamentalist Muslims

being a threat to NY a while back.

[bkozumplik]

408. and whats that have to do with the bike lane issue exactly? /eom

[skepticscott]

410. Well, read post 116

which is what I was responding to, and maybe you'll get it. The poster was defending the demands of the Hasids re the bike lanes and mocking the notion that a few thousand religious nutballs could ever be a threat. As 9/11 showed, it takes a lot fewer than that.

[GoneOffShore]

185. Well said Snake -

If one could rec individual posts, this would get one.

[snagglepuss]

284. I second that nt

[BrklynLiberal]

193. +100

:thumbsup:

SEE:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7203223&mesg_id=7206567

[winyanstaz]

282. exactly....

And in the meantime...may I suggest to bicyling women and men in the area..and out of it...to continue to bike there..and be sure to wear your tiniest short shorts and just a swimsuit top ladies and all you guys take your shirts off.

[drm604]

399. Maybe they could stage a protest.

Maybe on a weekend morning when there's not as much vehicular traffic they could peacefully and quietly ride through in large numbers dressed provocatively (but legally), spaced out enough so as not to create a hazard.

[joeybee12]

135. They have their right to their views, but thier views infringe on the rights of

others...separattion of church and state trumps Blomberg trying to win votes.

[Scout]

144. their viewpoint is fine ... but when they start restricting me and my behavior

based on THEIR religious viewpoint, then they can go suck eggs.

:eyes:

[DainBramaged]

148. So are you moving to NYC to ride naked in their neighborhood?

[reggie the dog]

205. no one was naked

why should the fit women I would like to look at have to ride in lanes of traffic with cars just because a group of religious fanatics does not like looking at them?

[Dorian Gray]

213. The bike lanes are

in the road. They are riding right next to traffic.

[pnwmom]

332. That's where bike lanes usually are. This is the only place in the U.S. where I've

heard of them being eliminated because WOMEN might wear SHORTS.

[Dorian Gray]

357. It's a totally stupid reason to eliminate them

and if I know my fellow New York Bikers, they will seek out these roads in Williamsburg, in the middle of the summer, and wear their most skimpiest clothing possible just to make a point. And I will cheer them on for it!

[pnwmom]

386. It's not like having no bike lanes will keep bikers off the streets -- bike lanes

just make it safer for everybody.

[JackInGreen]

321. if you're buying the ticket

I'm down, but I'm repulsive for entirely different reasons of good taste.

[pnwmom]

331. They are preventing other people in Brooklyn from using legal bike lanes.

That's what's objectionable.

[Name removed]

341. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Selatius]

346. So you're opposed to women having the freedom to wear shorts when biking?

Public funds went to paint those lanes. Since everybody pays taxes, then everybody should enjoy the full benefit of those lanes. There is nothing wrong with being a Hasidic Jew. There is something wrong, though, with imposing one set of religious beliefs upon other people using taxpayer funds. The separation of church and state was established precisely to avoid religious discrimination and the use of state power by one religious group to impose its will upon other groups.

[truedelphi]

175. When other people's viewpoints are over extending into public right of ways!!

[reggie the dog]

200. they are the intolerant ones

they take away bike lanes, and make it harder for us to check out athletic womein in shorts, because of their religion.

[jgraz]

219. Ultra-Orthodox religion is not a "viewpoint", it's a mental illness.

We should repaint the bike lanes and get those poor behatted souls the therapy they so desperately need.

[snagglepuss]

286. BINGO nt

[discocrisco01]

438. Ulta Orthodox

My sponsor in a twelve-step program is a Orthodox Jew. He shares a lot about his spirituality and I find it a lot of wisdom in it.

There are some nut cases that go too far with religion. Take it too literally. Same thing with Christians.

[WCGreen]

221. The Hasidic community can not force other people to conform to their

beliefs. Aren't the Hasidic men not willing to tolerate a woman's right to ride a bike?

It seems to me that the men in the Hassidic community can't control their sexual urges. In a secular society, it is not up to the women to conform to the wishes of a religious sect, it is the responsibility of the individuals who are "tempted" by the women cyclist to control their urges.

[havocmom]

252. Yep. If they can't deal with street legal females, they can wear blinders or buckets

Buckets and guide dogs should solve their problem with how others dress. ;)

[WCGreen]

302. It is the 21st century not the 12th...

[kestrel91316]

427. Perfect solution.

[havocmom]

432. We shall know them by the buckets on their heads

and the muttering as they crash into that which they will not see ;)

[AlbertCat]

263. since when did DU become intolerant of other's viewpoints?

Since the Hasids did?


It greatly offends me that others (besides me) don't smear yogurt on their face when in public. You will be doing this, I suppose so as to tolerate my unusual but absolutely essential (for me) requirements....right?

[snagglepuss]

265. Fundies regardless of their religious, regardless of their we're-so-pious bullshit

are freaks and should not demand freedom be sacrificed to their idiotic whims.

[pnwmom]

330. Since when? When their religious practices infringe on other people's freedom.

They have no right to close public roads to bikers based on their objections to women in shorts.

[SoCalDem]

334. I agree with you... the "ultra-Orthodox Jews" seem very intolerant

of the majority of the people in their community:evilgrin:

I bet they are VERY "tolerant" of the tax exempt status the community-at-large gives them...they just don't want the general society USING those government-supported PUBLIC streets, while wearing generally accepted clothing.

[bkozumplik]

339. at exactly the moment

when they started removing bicycle lanes. Thats exactly the moment when the line was crossed.
Surely you see that.

[TommyO]

377. Having a different belief system is fine

Practicing those beliefs is fine

What is not fine is when a group of people uses their religious beliefs to impact the rights of other people. We see it here in the removal of bike lanes so they don't see a shorts-clad woman, we've seen it in NJ where they've spoken out against my right to enter into a civil marriage.

[D23MIURG23]

394. Since when did viewpoints gain validity on the basis of being held by minority groups?

If this was a post about how Republicans got the bike lanes de-painted because of some Christian ideological quirk would you still defend their meddling in municipal policy?

Ultra Orthodox Jews are free to hold blatantly stupid, medieval ideas about how women shouldn't ride bicycles without black dresses and a side saddle, but the fact that they represent some kind of minority doesn't add any validity these ideas. The rest of us are also free to criticize their ideas as loudly as we would like. Its called a free society, and it will stay free until we start uniformly adopting the prejudices of our most conservative religious minorities.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

398. when the viewpoints wanted others to conform to it?

[kestrel91316]

424. Religious "rights" end where other peoples' rights begin.

On public streets, the rights of the general public prevail. Religious rights prevail within their respective churches and synagogues and MINDS.

[KamaAina]

78. Like here, perhaps?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryas_Joel,_New_York

Kiryas Joel (also known as Kiryas Yo'el or KJ) (Hebrew: קרית יואל, "Town of Joel") is a village within the town of Monroe in Orange County, New York, United States. The great majority of its residents are Hasidic Jews who strictly observe the Torah and its commandments, and belong to the worldwide Satmar Hasidic dynasty....

According to 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation. More than two-thirds of residents live below the federal poverty line and 40% receive food stamps....

Women in Kiryas Joel usually stop working outside the home after the birth of a second child. Most families have only one income and many children. The resulting poverty rate makes a disproportionate number of families in Kiryas Joel eligible for welfare benefits when compared to the rest of the county; and cost of welfare benefits is subsidized by taxes paid county-wide....

The unusual lifestyle and growth pattern of Kiryas Joel has led to litigation on a number of fronts. In 1994, the Supreme Court ruled in the case of Board of Education of Kiryas Joel Village School District v. Grumet that the Kiryas Joel school district, which covered only the village, was designed in violation of the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment, because the design accommodated one group on the basis of religious affiliation. 512 U.S. 687 (1994). Subsequently, the New York State Legislature established a similar school district in the town that has passed legal muster. Further litigation has resulted over what entity should pay for the education of children with disabilities in Kiryas Joel, and over whether the community's boys must ride buses driven by women.

I can about guarantee you the wimminfolk ain't riding no bikes in no shorts up there. :eyes:

edit: I once knew someone who worked giving in-home medical exams, based in nearby Poughkeepsie. She hated going in there: there are no street signs, and no one will give an outsider (especially a female, one presumes) directions.

[mitchum]

152. But...but...but...those welfare funds are from a secular society...

and that would mean the Hasidic are both intolerant...and hypocrites.
Don't say that's true!

[snake in the grass]

184. My cousin went completely Hasidic...

...when he turned 20, moved to Israel, and married a woman there. Now he doesn't even hug his mother (for fear he'll get turned on I suppose), which has brought her to tears many times. For the record and for those who know the difference, his parents are somewhere between conservative and reform. I think she's accepted it now, but it's still sad, especially with the grandmother, who wasn't allowed to touch him the last 15 years of her life. She died 5 years ago and I saw him at the funeral with his wife. Where everyone else was seeking comfort or comforting others, mostly through some form of physical contact, they stood in the corner like from some other planet. He spends his days studying the Talmud, doesn't work, and is basically living off the dole in a state he doesn't even recognize as legitimate. It's crazy.

[BrklynLiberal]

197. So, tell me, How is this different from any other religious fundamental sect or cult?

This is EXACTLY what this is....

I have had similar experiences among my friends and family.

[snake in the grass]

210. It's exactly the same thing.

No different from Opus Dei members flagellating themselves or wearing a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cilice#Usage">cilice; no different from the hatred of women, that leads to honour killings or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sati_(practice)">Satī; no different from the insanity that leads people to deny their children proper medical care, choosing, instead, to pray or lay hands on them until they croak miserably (afterward, they console themselves that it was God's will); no different from believing that if one follows the so-called teachings of a 3rd rate failure of a science fiction author and paranoid schizophrenic, one will be protected from radiation and have the ability to levitate.

My cousin is a freak. I really don't know what his issues are, but at least he was consequent enough to move to a country that accepts his brand of insanity.

[connecticut yankee]

251. Your cousin is considered a "Learned Man"

They don't work, but, as you said, study the Talmud all day and discuss it with other Hasidim. They expect their wives to support them and their numerous children. It is considered an honor to be married to a Learned Man.

I would call them parasites, but I'd be accused of being anti-Semitic.

And, incidentally, I grew up in a Jewish home, but I left the religion when I was 14. I couldn't stand the hypocrisy.

[BrklynLiberal]

195. This community has built itself up, paying no taxes, with the expectation that

the taxes paid by the citizens of the surrounding county would subsidize them. Their inflow has put a strain on the entire infrastructure of the area: the water supply and distribution, electric grid, plumbing & sewage, schools etc.
They will not pay taxes to support themselves or their community, and their attitude is, "If they -the people who live in the surrounding area of the county..who do pay the taxes - don't like it, let THEM move."
They figure what they do not get from local taxes, they will get from state and/or Federal funds.

They are politically potent and use their group strength to get whatever they want...and if you don't like it, YOU can move!!!

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/28/opinion/a-poor-solution-for-kiryas-joel.html

<snip>
How far should New York State go to accommodate this group? The U.S. Supreme Court says the state went too far by creating a special district to educate them. Now the Legislature and Gov. Mario Cuomo have approved a law that tries to get around the Court's objections. The new law faces another possible court challenge. But even if it does not violate constitutional barriers against state aid to religion, it represents bad policy.

In a 6-to-3 ruling last month, the Supreme Court found Kiryas Joel's special accommodation unconstitutional. The Court felt that the worthy goal of providing a publicly funded education to disabled Hasidic students could not be accomplished by creating a district defined by religious criteria.

Quickly responding to the Court's objections, the State Legislature passed and Governor Cuomo signed a bill that is designed to apply more broadly. The new law allows any municipality that meets certain criteria, mostly involving size and wealth, to establish its own school district. The Assembly and Mr. Cuomo's staff estimate that 10 to 25 municipalities might qualify. But the New York State School Boards Association, which brought the successful challenge against the 1989 law, argues that the new law still applies only to the Kiryas Joel district. It threatens another lawsuit.
<snip>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryas_Joel,_New_York

<snip>
The village has become a contentious issue in Orange County for several reasons, mainly related to its rapid growth.<5> Unlike most other small communities, it lacks a real downtown and much of it is given over to residential property, which has mostly taken the form of contemporary townhouse-style condominium. New construction is ongoing throughout the community.

Population growth is strong. In 1990, there were 7,400 people in Kiryas Joel; in 2000, 13,100, nearly doubling the population. In 2005, the population had risen to 18,300, a rate of growth suggesting it will double again in the ten years between 2000 and 2010.<5> In 2006, village administrator Gedalye Szegedin stated:
“ There are three religious tenets that drive our growth: our women don't use birth control, they get married young and after they get married, they stay in Kiryas Joel and start a family. Our growth comes simply from the fact that our families have a lot of babies, and we need to build homes to respond to the needs of our community. . . . As each successive generation of women becomes old enough to have children, the number of women of child-bearing age grows exponentially. The number of women who marry each year is the approximate number of new homes needed.<5>
<snip>
Critics of the village cite its impact on local politics. Villagers are perceived as voting in a solid bloc. While this is not always the case, the highly concentrated population often does skew strongly toward one candidate or the other in local elections, making Kiryas Joel a heavily-courted swing vote for whichever politician offers Kiryas Joel the most favorable environment for continued growth.

<snip>
According 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation, and the largest percentage of residents who receive food stamps. More than two-thirds of Kiryas Joel residents live below the federal poverty line and more than 40 percent receive food stamps, according to the American Community Survey, a U.S. Census Bureau study of every place in the country with 20,000 residents or more.<3>

[snagglepuss]

292. What an eyeopener . This is unbelievable, How is it they don't pay taxes?

Wait till Christian and Islamic fundie whackos get wind of this.

[MH1]

401. Wow. I had no idea.

[BrklynLiberal]

196. See this post for more info.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7203223&mesg_id=7206567

[snagglepuss]

271. I've read they play the same sort of games in Israel and they also refuse

to serve in the Israeli army.

[SoCalDem]

329. 2/3 in poverty, and I'll bet they have a religious tax exemption too

but they ask for and get government assistance.. from a government they profess to dislike so muchm that they retreat from it.. ..odd to the nth degree:(

I feel sad for the kids who grow up in societies like it:(

[Rage for Order]

223. "Love it or leave it", huh?

Where have we heard that sentiment before, I wonder?

[JamesA1102]

278. I live in Brooklyn and they are not religious freaks

They are good hard working people.

And from what I understand they are only taking out the bike lanes in predominately Jewish neighborhoods. I live in Bay Ridge which is predominately Catholic and Muslim and they just put in new bike lanes.

[snagglepuss]

293. They are freaks like every other fundie and they should keep their

idiotic grandiose notions within limits and not demand that rules change to suit their neurosis.

[JamesA1102]

315. How intolerant of you.

Have you ever met a Hasidic Jew? My guess is that you haven't.

[snagglepuss]

320. I don't associate with neurotic, narrow minded ,arrogent ,misogynist

fundies of any kind. But don't listen to my rant BrklynLiberal's post says it all. If it doesn't make someone heave, I don't know what will.

Quote

This community has built itself up, paying no taxes, with the expectation that the taxes paid by the citizens of the surrounding county would subsidize them. Their inflow has put a strain on the entire infrastructure of the area: the water supply and distribution, electric grid, plumbing & sewage, schools etc.

They will not pay taxes to support themselves or their community, and their attitude is, "If they -the people who live in the surrounding area of the county..who do pay the taxes - don't like it, let THEM move."

They figure what they do not get from local taxes, they will get from state and/or Federal funds.They are politically potent and use their group strength to get whatever they want...and if you don't like it, YOU can move!!!


http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/28/opinion/a-poor-soluti ...


<snip>
How far should New York State go to accommodate this group? The U.S. Supreme Court says the state went too far by creating a special district to educate them. Now the Legislature and Gov. Mario Cuomo have approved a law that tries to get around the Court's objections. The new law faces another possible court challenge. But even if it does not violate constitutional barriers against state aid to religion, it represents bad policy.

In a 6-to-3 ruling last month, the Supreme Court found Kiryas Joel's special accommodation unconstitutional. The Court felt that the worthy goal of providing a publicly funded education to disabled Hasidic students could not be accomplished by creating a district defined by religious criteria.

Quickly responding to the Court's objections, the State Legislature passed and Governor Cuomo signed a bill that is designed to apply more broadly. The new law allows any municipality that meets certain criteria, mostly involving size and wealth, to establish its own school district. The Assembly and Mr. Cuomo's staff estimate that 10 to 25 municipalities might qualify. But the New York State School Boards Association, which brought the successful challenge against the 1989 law, argues that the new law still applies only to the Kiryas Joel district. It threatens another lawsuit.
<snip>



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryas_Joel,_New_York


<snip>
The village has become a contentious issue in Orange County for several reasons, mainly related to its rapid growth.<5> Unlike most other small communities, it lacks a real downtown and much of it is given over to residential property, which has mostly taken the form of contemporary townhouse-style condominium. New construction is ongoing throughout the community.

Population growth is strong. In 1990, there were 7,400 people in Kiryas Joel; in 2000, 13,100, nearly doubling the population. In 2005, the population had risen to 18,300, a rate of growth suggesting it will double again in the ten years between 2000 and 2010.<5> In 2006, village administrator Gedalye Szegedin stated:
“ There are three religious tenets that drive our growth: our women don't use birth control, they get married young and after they get married, they stay in Kiryas Joel and start a family. Our growth comes simply from the fact that our families have a lot of babies, and we need to build homes to respond to the needs of our community. . . . As each successive generation of women becomes old enough to have children, the number of women of child-bearing age grows exponentially. The number of women who marry each year is the approximate number of new homes needed.<5>
<snip>
Critics of the village cite its impact on local politics. Villagers are perceived as voting in a solid bloc. While this is not always the case, the highly concentrated population often does skew strongly toward one candidate or the other in local elections, making Kiryas Joel a heavily-courted swing vote for whichever politician offers Kiryas Joel the most favorable environment for continued growth.

<snip>
According 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation, and the largest percentage of residents who receive food stamps. More than two-thirds of Kiryas Joel residents live below the federal poverty line and more than 40 percent receive food stamps, according to the American Community Survey, a U.S. Census Bureau study of every place in the country with 20,000 residents or more.<3>

[JamesA1102]

323. As I said how intorerant of you. nt

[Raineyb]

355. Tolerating intolerance is not a virtue.

And I used to LIVE in Williamsburg so don't bother lecturing to me about them.

[snagglepuss]

397. What hypocritical bullshit. How many KKK assholes do you associate with?

[JamesA1102]

405. None. They don't like Jews either. nt

[JNelson6563]

366. I have.

I went to a trade show with my mom. One of the booths was a company of Hasidic Jews. We were interested in what they were selling so we tried to get their attention. As we stood there, ignored, minutes ticking away, I was really puzzled that they would stand around doing nothing while I was calling "Sir? Excuse me, sir?" I truly wondered if they were deaf. Then we moved on and my mom explained (I was young, maybe 19) that we were gentile women and they would have nothing to do with us. I was stunned.

Looking back these many years later, I guess I still am. Reading defense of these zealots and their lunacy on DU is almost as stunning.

Julie

[snagglepuss]

318. Replied to wrong post. self delete

[SoCalDem]

328. So, because they have a "neighborhood" that "they" claim as their own

PUBLIC facilities, like BIKE LANES on the f'ing STREET have to meet with their approval, or have DRESS-CODE enforced because the men of THEIR little fundamentalist community cannot seem to control their own lustful feelings?

Let's extrapolate a little:


NO dance clubs in neighborhoods that claim to be Baptist enclaves?
NO Blood Banks or Hospitals in areas where Jehovah's Witnesses live?
No Family Planning clinics near Catholic neighborhoods?


The US is (supposedly) a secular society that "GIVES" religious freedom to all who come here, BUT within that "gift", is also the idea that no ONE religious group's belief's will trump the rights & freedoms of the larger group.

The whole is equal to the sum of its parts, BUT no one part is anymore "important" or "imposing" than any other part.

If you happen to belong to a quirky sect/cult/whatever, you have every right to practice your beliefs, BUT you do NOT have the right to prevent the whole rest of society from exercising THEIR rights...and if your beliefs prevent you from "looking at women", then perhaps YOUR sect/cult/whatever should be located in a place that is not in constant contact with the normal world or everyday people, doing their "thing" on public streets, paid for and maintained by tax money from the "whole".

The Amish have figured it out....

[juno jones]

279. Yup. They have 'right of return'.

I'm a total mutt and my ass is stuck here. They can easily go to Israel and get their jollies. Love it or leave it, baby.

[olegramps]

422. This is mind boggling.

Why would Jewish people, who have been subjected to intolerant discrimination for centuries, endorse discrimination against their fellow citizens? It appears to me that if this is the actual case, don't they realize that they are attempting to do exactly what Nazis did to them by striping them of their rights. Don't they realize that some people could regard their manner of dress as a distasteful insulting put-down to accepted American standards of dress. Remember I said SOME.

[kestrel91316]

428. Apparently in all their studies of the Torah and Talmud, they are missing

the part about two wrongs not making a right.

[liberal N proud]

4. It is a wonder that some religions reproduce

Can't stare at the opposite sex.

Women must be covered

Abstinence

:crazy:

[Systematic Chaos]

16. Well, see...that's out in public where they feel the need to impose their will over everyone.

In their off time, they're out and about secretly fucking everything that moves, and half the shit that doesn't.

:eyes:

[leeroysphitz]

17. Have you read the bible? Technically we aren't even allowed to go to the bathroom.

[Vickers]

84. Leviticus is a real motherfucker. n/t

[Thickasabrick]

149. Ok...now you are just making shit up. nt

[ImOnlySleeping]

246. simpsons

nt

[NJGeek]

5. corruption of the highest order

one group of people violating the law and extracting political favors in the light of day because they bring out votes... insane..someone should sue under first ammendment grounds

[Mz Pip]

6. How is removing the bike lanes

going to keep people from riding their bicycles? Or keep women from wearing bike shorts for that matter? What about joggers and their shorts and halter tops?

This just seems silly. People have a right to practice their religion but do not have the right to dictate that others follow their rules on public streets. Don't want to see a scanitily clad woman? Close your eyes or stay inside.

[Dorian Gray]

214. It won't.

People will still ride their bikes there, probably more now that this is made public.

[AlbertCat]

288. This just seems silly.

It is. And it's not about religion, or shorts. It's about exercising power.

[Gormy Cuss]

7. With or without the bike lane, women can still ride down Bedford Ave in shorts.

Perhaps a better accommodation would be to erect high walls segregating the sidewalks from the street and posting warning about the presence of women wearing shorts on a public street.

I suspect that the objection to the bike lane has nothing to do with women and shorts and as the author noted, more to do with the influx of people who aren't Hasidim.

[jberryhill]

24. Or just build a big wall around their neighborhood....

I'll bet that will go over really well...

[Raineyb]

87. Well that neighborhood wasn't always Hasidim either.

My cousin used to own a building in Williamsburg. There used to be other ethnicities in there as well but they Hasidim eventually took over. Now non Hasidim are moving back into Williamsburg because they're being pushed out of Manhattan and Williamsburg is RIGHT over the bridge. The J or M train from the Marcy Ave Station takes you right into the city. They're objecting to the newer people coming into the area and I suspect they will find the newcomers a lot more difficult than people like my relatives who used to live in the area. We never had the political clout the more monied folk coming in have.

[snake in the grass]

163. I think the erecting part is...

...what they have a problem with. Probably better not to erect anything else there!

:evilgrin:

[snagglepuss]

295. LOLOL

:rofl:

[bettyellen]

222. isn't it legal to go topless in NYC? I have never been tempted to before, but it sounds like

it could be fun.

[Gormy Cuss]

229. A topless Critical Mass ride next spring .... now that's a possibility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Mass

Heh.

[csziggy]

291. better yet - World Naked Bike Ride

http://criticalmass.wikia.com/wiki/World_Naked_Bike_Ride

[Alameda]

264. I think it is....happened in the 90s

[mopinko]

9. sounds like a job for critical mass

hope they swarm this area regularly.

[snagglepuss]

296. +1

[progressoid]

10. Hmmm...what century are we in?

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

[maxsolomon]

11. Dear Hasidim, stay away from Seattle on the the Summer Solstice

[no_hypocrisy]

12. Here's the problem:

You have a religious sect that can't practically live in a religious enclave, separated from the rest of the world. Non-adherents will likely be neighbors and have values that diametrically oppose some of their beliefs. And this is a democracy. A democracy where all voices are heard. And when there is a conflict of laws, one of which is religiously based, that law must yield under The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the Constitution. Otherwise, laws can be enacted for purely sectarian reasons that will be imposed (with penalty) upon those outside that sect. There's a necessary tension between the Free Exercise Clause (allowing religious minorities the ability to practice their religion without harassment or impediments) and the Establishment Clause. In this case, the Establishment Clause would be applied (meaning the bike lanes to be redrawn) as the bike path ordinance or regulation was changed solely for the sake of a religious doctrine, not due to public safety or another policy designed to protect ALL residents. The religious sect has the option of averting its eyes with little imposition of doing so. Someone can get hit by a car without a designated bike lane.

[BoneDaddy]

14. I don't think so

Their sexual hang-ups are part of their community and should not be opposed upon a society that has embraced modernity. This isn't about democracy.

[tblue37]

172. Imposed. (Sorry. I wouldn't bother you about it, but "opposed" makes your comment mean

almost the opposite of what you intend.)

[BoneDaddy]

307. correct

imposed is the correct usage....responded while drinking, my bad.

[Kolesar]

20. Thanks for the civics lesson!

(This proves that somebody is reading your posts :) )
Mayor Bloomburg is a sell out, just like Ohio Governor Ted Strickland.

[femrap]

22. Please tell me

what you are referring to about Strickland? Regarding bike lanes and women in shorts???

[Kolesar]

36. He "sold us out" by endorsing that constitutional amendment for an "agricultural board"

that was designed to subvert a farm animal legislative campaign by the Humane Society of the US.

He sold out to the real estate developers by reversing the DNR position against development of the Lake Erie shoreline. That was before the 2006 election.

[femrap]

217. I thought it was the stupid people

of Ohio was voted for the Ag Board. And I believe the Humane Society will try again here....at least I hope so.

[athenasatanjesus]

70. I'm guessing some politicians wanted to remove them anyways

And this is their excuse.

[no_hypocrisy]

162. Welcome to DU.

[BoneDaddy]

13. Once again catering to the desires of a fundamentalist

irrational religion. Perhaps the Hasidim should address the misogyny, sexual abuse and rampant alcoholism in their community first and shut up.

[tomp]

317. yes, they cover it up well. nt

[marmar]

15. So, now that there are no bike lanes, there will be no women in bike shorts?

The (lack of) logic here on the part of the City of New York has me flummoxed. :shrug:

[leeroysphitz]

21. I've heard that riding a bike anywhere in NYC traffic is hazardous at best.

This may be an attempt to frustrate would be (female) bicyclists by taking away the safe haven of a bike lane.
Those that choose to continue riding in the area would either have to ride on the side walk (illegal) or put themselves at greater risk by braving the traffic. All for the sake of prudery.

[BrklynLiberal]

169. IT's only dangerous to those who do not live int he city

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

358. They'll be more likely to be run over, which is what the harlots deserve. Allah wants women covered!

Ooops, wait, wrong misogynist extremist cult.

JESUS THE LORD WILL SMITE THEE BY WAY OF SUV!

No, wait, that's not it either. It's hard to keep track at times.

[ThomThom]

18. So not having bike lanes is going to stop females from riding?

What about the community of cyclists that now have a less safe community to exercise their beliefs? Hopefully this will not stand. The Hasidics need use this as a real test of their faith and rise to the challenge or not.

[femrap]

19. Fucking unbelievable....

Why don't these dudes NOT LOOK....better yet, let's make them wear BLINDERS like they put on some race horses.

I live in an area where many Somalis have relocated. The women are all covered up while the dudes just prance around ogling. Again, Blinders.

Fucking men who create these silly 'religious' dictum against women. They get hard-ons and it's women's fault. Control your dick, you asshole. Or are you just some sort of animal who lives by instinct and no reason?

[Nikki Stone1]

23. What's next? Caving to Sharia is Islamic neighborhoods?

Without consistent laws, we cease to exist as a nation.

[snagglepuss]

299. Exactly nt

[MH1]

25. HFMOG

un-f********-believable.

[MuseRider]

27. Time for naked bike riding

by groups of women on the sidewalk through a mass of those who simply can't control themselves. Good lord, if you can't control yourself you control others? Wow. Fuck 'em.

[HuckleB]

32. Time for naked bike riding by both sexes.

I don't think they'd be able to control themselves either way.

[earthboundmisfit]

34. I was gonna say "time for a mass Shorts-in" - but naked bike riding groups of women

is much better!

[snake in the grass]

161. Let's go!

I was 13 when this album came out. Good but frustrating times!

[LibDemAlways]

241. I was teaching 8th grade in a Catholic school when that album came out.

I caught a couple of boys with that picture. They thought they were done for. Started crying and begged me not to tell the principal. I conjured up the sternest look I could muster and told them to put it away and make sure to remove it from school grounds. (It was all I could do to keep from laughing out loud.) Anyhow, they were mightily relieved, and I never saw the pic again. Thanks for the memories!

[snake in the grass]

243. That's a nice story.

As it is, I could have been one of those boys. I was in the 8th grade and, yes, I smuggled the poster into class. Luckily, I didn't get caught or I would have probably freaked out too!

:hi:

[Blue_Tires]

257. WANT

[unapatriciated]

322. I wanted to post our vid of naked bike riders protesting bush in San Francisco..

but youtube removed it .:applause:



on edit daily motion doesn't have a problem with it
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x26idl_wild-war-protest_politics

[alcibiades_mystery]

182. I'd wait until spring

It ain't Florida.

[Shagbark Hickory]

28. This makes me mad!

[HopeHoops]

29. So the city caved in to a bunch of guys who couldn't control their johnsons?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[MH1]

33. pretty sad if this can happen in America, huh?

[HopeHoops]

37. Hell, they can bike naked if they want. I don't mind getting a woodie!

Haven't they heard of "looking the other way"? Maybe they should "turn the other cheek".

[Blue_Tires]

50. more like "felt ashamed" of their johnsons...

they should move to siberia where everyone has to cover up anyways...

[struggle4progress]

294. It's more likely that the city caved to people wanting parking spaces. That seems to be

the most common objection to the lanes, judging not only from news stories about complaints but also from the fact that people illegally park in the lanes all the time

[snagglepuss]

300. People may have been deliberately parking in the lanes to dissuade cyclists.

[salguine]

30. "The Shomrim Patrol"? Doesn't the Taliban have those, too? (And should you

feel the need to brand me an anti-Semite, spare me.)

[fizzgig]

31. i'm jewish and have no problem with that statement

a fundamentalist is a fundamentalist, no matter what religion they adhere to

[BrklynLiberal]

170. Not a hell of a big difference between them...

I am Jewish and think that the Jewish Fundies are as bad as the Islamic Fundies and the Christian fundies.

[kestrel91316]

429. +10

[graywarrior]

35. So the city is complicit in making women the Jezebels, the "problem", the ones who are asking for it

I'm so sick of these guys who blame women for their perverted religious fanatacism.

[Libertas1776]

38. As much as I detest religion I see another angle from this...

You have a group of people that have lived in these neighborhoods, such as Williamsburg, Brooklyn, for a century, pretty much keeping to their religious beliefs and what have you. Now with the age of hipsters on bicycles, there are people who think they have free range over the whole city. Now, I know some of you will say "this is America, I can go wherever I damn well please etc and so forth" but the reality is, that's the way it has been in NYC for centuries. You just didn't cross into other people's neighborhoods. I'm not saying it is right, especially things like blacks not being allowed in white neighborhoods or vice versa. But with regards to religious enclaves like this, it is a bit of a different story. I may think their religious objections are obtuse, but I still respect the lengthy and diverse history of NYC as well. Plus, I pretty much despise the hipsters, the yuppies, the Joneses and every other element that is slowly eroding every unique and original aspect of this city, which would probably explain my unusual defense of such a protest.

[blondeatlast]

41. So your cultural protectionism overtakes your concern for the First Amendment? Check. Does that appl

to the Arizona-Utah border as well?

Oh, probably not, because "hipsters" arent trying to "overtake" that area.

[Libertas1776]

48. And evidently

you have never lived in a major American city. The whole city is not your playground. You just don't ride wherever you please. REAL New Yorkers understood that. Trust baby hipsters from Peoria who have mommy and daddy pay their exorbitant rent don't understand that. Hey, but you have your 1st Amendment rights, so go ahead, ride where you feel like. Maybe you'd like to try the South Bronx. What?! You don't don't want to. But I thought you wanted to see the whole city and what it has to offer. Ah I see, you don't want to stray to far from the gated community that is Manhattan and out into the real world.

[blondeatlast]

49. San francisco isn't a major American city. Gotcha. nt

[Libertas1776]

53. I don't know...

does San Francisco have a population exceeding 8 Million people? I'm sorry, I should have specifically said New York City, or hell, maybe even Chicago. Ya know, places where gentrification is killing the heart and soul of the city.

[cherokeeprogressive]

61. Greater Los Angeles does. And there isn't a "boundary" I'd hesitate to cross.

Your notions are silly, and offensive.

[Libertas1776]

64. I still have not heard from

one person from NYC. Come, bring your bikes to NYC and see how "silly and offensive" my notions are when you cross into the wrong neighborhood.

[Xicano]

72. So which is it? Living in a major city or just living in New York city?

"evidently you have never lived in a major American city. The whole city is not your playground. You just don't ride wherever you please."

So you're defending gang territorial mentality?

:shrug:

[GoneOffShore]

187. You're not going to get a reply there.

"You hipsters - Get off of my streets!"

[Xicano]

188. Indeed.

"hipsters" -- LOL I think that person should try expanding their horizons and travel around more.

:hi:

[Libertas1776]

228. "That Person" is me

you wanna say something, say it to me. There are plenty of people here who need to be expanding their horizons and travel more, especially people who are uniformed and uneducated about the problems of other cities and yet presume to speak about it as if they are experts. I'm sorry, I thought DUers would be more concerned about the destruction of a cities middle class at the hands of super-gentrification. Oh well, I guess I was wrong.

[Xicano]

234. And one of the "major cities" (as you put it) is LA where I live.

Also, I'll say what ever I want to whoever I want and if you don't like it - oh well, too bad for you. Secondly, I gotta tell you, anybody is an expert compared to what you're going on about. You backed yourself into a defenseless corner with that knuckle dragging anti-liberal ideas against women riding bicycles while wearing shorts. Yes, I guess you were wrong about DU if you thought DU prescribed to anti-liberal ideas such as that.

So should women have to cover their faces with a Berka too? :shrug:

[Libertas1776]

238. It's so much easier to respond in pictures...

http://shadowpress.org/DEMO%206-13-08,1.jpg




and you can twist this argument to fit your means any which way you want but it ain't going to work. The people you see here do not describe to "anti-liberal ideas" as you like to describe them, but rather are fighting to survive in a city that that is pushing them to the curb for the wealthy elite.

[Xicano]

244. These pictures don't help your case.

From one of the photos you posted. "Protest march against real estate developers, landlords, yuppie wine bars, republicans." What does protesting against the rich have to do with erasing bicycle lanes unless you're the rich person wanting more room for your Hummer or Limo?

Sorry but your point is convoluted. How does riding a bicycle in shorts equate to wealthy elitism? Did Paris Hilton abondoned her limousines for a Schwinn ten speed?

:shrug:

[Libertas1776]

261. Then you completely missed

my point despite the fact that you kept throwing around my use of the word "hipster." Perhaps if you actually read want I POSTED you would understand what I am talking about.

[Xicano]

289. Because what you posted is convoluted.

You're all over the map. First its "any major American city", and also why you agree with the attempts to discourage women wearing shorts while riding bikes. Then its just New York City and protesting against rich people. You're all over the place.

Also, I noticed you mentioned you were waiting for a NY'er to respond, but, conspicuously I see you haven't responded to the NY'ers who did.

Its clear you tried to rationalize agreeing with something that is defenseless if you're a liberal, then you tried to use unrelated issues against the people who called you on it. Its that simple.


n/t

[Libertas1776]

305. For every damn poster

that "shared" their opinion with me, did any of you actually read what I wrote in my original post?

Let me quote it for you, "I may think their religious objections are obtuse, but I still respect the lengthy and diverse history of NYC as well. Plus, I pretty much despise the hipsters, the yuppies, the Joneses and every other element that is slowly eroding every unique and original aspect of this city, which would probably explain my unusual defense of such a protest."

My whole argument was about rich people and their hipster ilk, if you hadn't realized.

[kestrel91316]

433. People are scum for drinking wine instead of, what, mouthwash?

Moonshine? Everclear?

[snagglepuss]

304. I'm hate gentrification but I despise fundies who demand special rules even

more. i can't believe I'm reading someone here extol "nieghbourhood purity". Would you defend these narrow-minded bigots if they were upset that gays wander in their nieghbourhoods or blacks?

[harmonicon]

350. yes, you are very very wrong.

I guess since the biggest US cities I've lived in were Chicago and LA that my opinion doesn't count, huh? When I was a kid, my grandmother lived in Cicero Illinois. At night, we had to take the swings off of the swing set in the yard, or they'd be stollen. Into the 90's, black families who moved into the city were run out of town. It was run by the mob until recently (when the mobster who ran it was put in prison, he put his wife in charge, who is now in prison). The boyfriend of a friend of mine moved there, and within the first few days, someone came and knocked on his door and said something like, "Welcome to the neighborhood. Just to let you know, we vote Republican here, so during the next election you'll be voting Republican, ok?" Ahh.... local color and tradition. Who would not love that?

[kestrel91316]

431. Why are you promoting gang turf mentality while pretending to be a Dem???

[snagglepuss]

303. Excellent question. nt

[blondeatlast]

95. Howzabout we ALL get ID badges spouting our cultural ties?

It worked in Germany and Austria!

[Raineyb]

Yes you have. And I find your notion offensive.

There may be enclaves but the government damn sure shouldn't be enforcing them.

[bettyellen]

226. one NYer here, to tell you your post is chickenshit. maybe NYC trustfund babies are limited to hoods

they were told are "safe" but seriously- it sounds like you just hopped off a turnip truck. after watch too many 70s gang movies, LOL.
boundries my ass, people live side by side and learn to tolerate.

[nyc 4 Biden]

250. +1

[habitual]

368. your buggin

dude, i'm from NYC, and you are WRONG. And before you jump on me asking me all sorts of questions trying to prove that i won't go into some neighborhood on my bike, let me just say - you don't know me AND you are wrong. end of.

[Fumesucker]

52. My ex grew up in Astoria in a Grecian ;) neighborhood and looks the part..

I'm a blue eyed blond, I used to get stared at every time we would visit her parents in Astoria but I never felt I wasn't welcome there, everyone I interacted with was nice to me (by NYC standards anyway ;) )

[Scout]

71. evidently people like YOU are what makes NY a nice place to visit....

but i wouldn't want to live there...

:eyes:

[Libertas1776]

81. wouldn't want to live there?

...you COULDN'T afford to live there. Oh, and by the way, some millionaire developer probably already claimed eminent domain, evicted Bert and Ernie, tore down their building, paved over Sesame Street and replaced it with a condo complex. :eyes:

[Scout]

139. damn fucking straight i wouldn't want to live there....

and nice snotty remark about what i could afford or not...

i've visited the city several times, and quite a few other large cities, and no i would NOT want to live there, whether i had a lot of money or not.

especially NOT if you are representative of the population :eyes:

[Libertas1776]

145. Snotty remark?

Unless you are a fucking millionaire, you can't afford to live there. Nobody can afford to live there unless you are some rich elitist prick, or the son or daughter of the aforementioned. And I'll be sure not to stop in your neck of the woods, either so thanks for the heads up :eyes:

[Scout]

146. fine, Michigan doesn't want you, so stay in New York with the other stuck up pricks n/t

[Libertas1776]

150. Fine

all 20 Million of us will make sure not to set foot in The Great Lakes State, we've got enough icy, cold hearted people here.

[JVS]

181. Stay out of Ann Arbor!

[Libertas1776]

183. Ann where? Whose harbor?

I'm sorry but I'm just a stuck up prick from the state of stuck up ricks, so I don't know nuttin 'bout no maps.:sarcasm: I'm just a regular dingbat who ought to get his head shrunked. Maybe I'll schedule an appointment wit' my doctor, Vinnie Voom Batts. Maybe I should just end it and take a swan dive off da guinea gangplank. Ooh, sorry I was just talking in my native New York accent so I probably lost you at about the word "Ann."

[habitual]

372. ummmmm, the poster didn't say all NY'ers

just the stuck up pricks.... leave me outta this.

[cali]

218. tell it to my young friend Alison or another young friend

Ben. Both are in their early twenties. One is a visual artist, the other a dancer and they both moved there (independently from one another). They're both doing fine and neither has rich parents.

[bettyellen]

224. oh blow it out your ass, if you grew up in NYC, it was somehow wasted on you... ya scaredy cat

[Tailormyst]

45. Anytime my rights as a woman and a full citizen are hindered because of someones religion...

I have a problem with that. If they want to live that way then they can move themselves to a country where people are not free to live as they choose.

[blondeatlast]

51. Or cripes--they can just NOT LOOK. But that seems to be too difficult for these "gentlemen."

:mad:

[Tailormyst]

55. I know, right? So silly !

[cherokeeprogressive]

59. That's fucked up on so many levels I don't even know where to start.

I will say this though. Your use of "we were here first" in order to defend such a screwed up decision makes me want to scream "TELL THEM TO TAKE THEIR ASSES BACK TO THE HOLY LAND!"

My Native American Ancestors were here first. White Europeans should have known what neighborhoods to stay out of.

Fuck how NYC has been for "centuries". Maybe New Yorkers should learn how to adapt to changing times just like the rest of society.

This is one of the strangest defenses of religious kookoo-ism I've ever seen. Here on DU OR anywhere else.

[Libertas1776]

67. You mean how NYers

should adapt to being kicked out of their apartment, apartments that have been lived in for generations because the landlord decided to jack the rent up 300% or more for a more affluent crowd. You mean how NYers should adapt to having age old family owned, mom and pop, small businesses be driven out by, once again, exorbitant rent increases made on purpose to drive out the old bodegas, the candy stores, and the little coffee shops for an Abercrombie and Fitch, cigar and wine bars, and towering glass dorms for NYU and Columbia. If that doesn't work, they can always depend on their friends in high places in the city to get the sword of eminent domain to come crashing down on them.

You mean how NYers should adapt to these so called changing times of rich sob's and their spawn turning a diverse city into their playground, given a free pass by their wealthy elite friends including the emperor mayor himself to run wild. If you want to see why we are where we are now economically, just look at NYC for the past decade, look up at the towering new condos, that were made by paving down blocks of century old tenement houses, that now sit empty. Look upon the "boom town" for it has gone bust!

[cherokeeprogressive]

68. Enough! You've convinced me. NYC needs fences to keep its citizens from "running wild"

and crossing into neighborhoods they're not welcome in.

Fences to ensure that nothing ever changes. Fences to make sure every "hipster" on a bicycle knows where he or she should stop, turn around, and go back.

So you long for the return of century old tenement houses huh?

I think you need a new screen name. Yours doesn't quite fit the attitude I'm feeling from you.

[Libertas1776]

69. Do you know that

a New Yorker has to earn at least 120,000 bucks to have the same standard of living of someone e earning 50,000 in Houston. In Manhattan, someone making 60,000 bucks would be on par with someone making 26,000 bucks in Atlanta. The average monthly rent in NYC is 53% higher than in San Francisco, the 2nd most expensive city in the US. http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2009/02/05/2009-02-05_nyc_so_costly_you_need_to_earn_six_figur.html

I was under the impression that DU gave a rat's ass about the little guy; about the dying middle class. I'm sorry that the pains of a depleting middle class in this country's largest city is of little or no concern to you. I am also sorry you don't give a damn about the blatant destruction of so many historical links to the past of this country's largest city.

[Scout]

75. take your complaints to the people responsible! i betcha no one on DU

is doing the things you are complaining about....

[Libertas1776]

85. The people responsible

are the same people that got our country into this financial catastrophe. I was under the impression that DU shared a common hatred for those people?

[eilen]

379. I would argue that your anger of the destruction of neighborhoods

and public places of NY by wealthy types aided and abetted by your (re-elected) mayor is misdirected at those who wish to have save bike lanes in all neighborhoods, especially considering that the fares for public transportation may be unaffordable for many of the young people who are bike riders. The concerns of the religious community in regard to bike lanes is based upon their religious bans and habits, not preservation of affordable housing. While many in the boroughs don't tend to stray from their neighborhoods, mostly because they have not needed too... the results of gentrification has forced them too as people cannot find affordable housing in the neighborhoods they work in. Also, I think you ignore in your screeds against the developers and power brokers is that most neighborhoods have not stayed static. Many started as ethnic enclaves of immigrants who, as they found increased financial security, left those tenements for brighter vistas -- thus how Italian, Irish, Polish, Ukranian neighborhoods gave way to Puerto Rican, Laotian, and Indian communities. What is interesting is that the neighborhoods might still "market" themselves as "Little Italy" or "Tip Hill" etc when most of those who can be identified ethnically have left. I see this in my small city upstate. We still have ethnic nieghborhoods, and developers have taken advantage of those neighborhood identities but most of the Italians left on our North Side are mostly elderly people and a few business owners, the rest are Vietemese and Laotian. Our South West neighborhoods were Irish, now are Latin American. I go in all neighborhoods--and patronize their small businesses-- at least during the day as there are gangs in some parts of the city that are absolutely territorial (if you are from the wrong side of the city, the world will know your name on the news the next morning)--however that is not true in all neighborhoods, mostly the most poverty stricken of them. I would definitely champion safe bike lanes on all our city and suburban streets.

My mother came to this country after WW2. She lived in a cold water flat in Queens. Then they moved to a better neighborhood that happened to be a Jewish neighborhood. Since she was German, none of the children in her building was allowed to play with her. She came home from school alone to find garbage at her door. She went to a Catholic school, learned fluent English in 3 weeks. Her mother worked full time. Like many immigrants who started live in the US in NYC they moved away from the city, she moved to Long Island. No ethnic group is better than another and I would tend to judge neighborhoods by the way they treat their fellow neighbors and guests in their community. I'm certain these bike riders bring money to local businesses, eat at their restaurants etc. I don't think there should be closed communities in the city.

I sympathize with keeping housing and neighborhoods intact in NYC. I'm a big Rev. Billy fan and support his group. However, I fail to see how biking people are destroying neighborhoods. I would want to keep safe bike lanes in the road so there is not disruption on the sidewalks nor bikers being hurt in the auto traffic.

[harmonicon]

351. that's a great idea!!

One of the biggest cities in Europe tried this once, and I think it's working out really well. They made sure that the Jews stayed in their Jewish neighborhoods. Of those who tried to live somewhere else, they were forcefully moved into the Jewish neighborhood. Ah.... diversity. I only know about this from the way that things were for hundreds of years, so I assume it's still the same... if not, for shame!!

Come to think of it, a Jewish friend of mine moved to Berlin a few years ago. I should ask him where he's living to make sure that he's not spoiling the local culture.

[Scout]

73. take it up with the rich pricks who are doing those things so they can get richer

no one is FORCING them to sell so they can make more money.

[Raineyb]

97. That's been happening for decades.

Oddly enough when it's black and brown people being forced out of neighborhoods they'd been in for years there's not much of an outcry. Considering the role the Hasidim had in pushing black and brown people out of Williamsburg I'm not at all inclined to feel at all sorry for them in this situation. Especially as all they have to do is NOT LOOK at the women on the bicycles. Removing the biking lanes and making biking more dangerous to EVERYONE in order to appease some ridiculous religious quirk is NOT acceptable and shouldn't be defended.

[Libertas1776]

114. "When it's black and brown people being forced out

of neighborhoods they'd been in for years there's not much of an outcry." You are certainly right about that.
Ironically, however, in recent times, it seems more like that "black and brown" people are not being driven out as much as rich white kids are moving into what is traditionally their neighborhoods that developers like to label as "up and coming." Really, its not so much my support of the Hasidics irrational problem of seeing a little skin as much as it is my extreme distaste of all thing "hipster." And has much of a good idea that bike lanes are, for CERTAIN parts of the city, I don't see New Yorkers warming up to them completely, its just not in most people's psyche. New York may have once been called New Amsterdam, but it will be a long time, if at all, before most of the city ever becomes a twin of its old namesake.

[cherokeeprogressive]

115. Define "hipster".

[blondeatlast]

118. +1. I won't hold my breath for a direct answer, though. nt

[Libertas1776]

120. Here is a link

to a website that can describe "hipster" a thousand times better than I ever could...
http://vanishingnewyork.blogspot.com/search?q=hipster

[snagglepuss]

308. Someone on a bike.

:shrug:

[BoneDaddy]

60. Then move out of a secular modern society

if you are so offended.

[Raineyb]

91. It wasn't always "their" neighborhood.

There used to be people of other ethnic groups in that neighborhood. But the Hasidim generally work to get other people out. It is not acceptable for them to go to the city government and try to use city power to obtain what they'd obtained by other means in the past. Apparently, buying houses way over market price to get people of other ethnicities out hasn't worked with the newer folks so they've decided to use the government to make things unfriendly toward the newer residents. They have no more right to that section of Brooklyn than anyone else did. As much as I despise yuppies I hope the yuppies win this one.

[snagglepuss]

309. +1

[Kalyke]

93. Since the Hasdic heirarchy think the females amongst them never look

at men in shorts riding around, an alternative to your theory is that they don't want the women seeing what freedom looks like.

In other words, the religious leaders don't want the females of their group realizing they don't have to dress in frumpy clothes or adhere to patriarchial dogma. Heck, they don't even need to marry if they don't want to - they could get a fine education and make it on their own.

They don't want their young women to see that, for Heaven's sake!

[klook]

343. Nailed it.

That's the real deal. They don't want their womenfolk gittin' no newfangled notions.

[WhollyHeretic]

102. OMG!!!!!! People riding on bikes?? Those disgusting bastards are destroying this country!!

I cannot believe the moronic crap in this thread defending these religious zealots.

[blondeatlast]

121. If "they'd" just keep to "themselves," knowhutimean?! nt

[blondeatlast]

104. Just as long as "they" don't cross "their" boundaries, everything is just fine, right? nt

[druidity33]

141. there is so much BS in your post

i don't even know how to begin dissembling it..... so i'm not even going to try. I just have to ask, have you ever lived in NYC or known anyone who has?

:eyes:

[Libertas1776]

154. Growing up,

I spent so much time staying in the old railroad flat of my grandmother. My maternal side of the family lived on that same street in Hell's Kitchen for nearly a century after coming through Ellis Island. They lived there, they worked there, they met their spouses there, they married there, they had their children there, they raised them there, they grew old there, and they died there. So excuse me if I get a little emotional of a place that has deep meaning to my family and gave me precious childhood memories.

[harmonicon]

354. Came through Ellis Island?!?!?

So new people moving to a city is fine, so long as it's your people. Got it.

[kestrel91316]

434. Why do you hate people just for riding bicycles? That seems extremely

ELITIST to me. Do you resent that they interfere with you driving your Hummer or souped-up monster truck around???

[snake in the grass]

157. Quit posting pictures like this!

They give me a boner!

[ImOnlySleeping]

249. check your history

while this group has settled in that neighbourhood for a while now, up until the last few decades, the area was inhabited by a wide variety of ethnic groups. The city is in constant flux, gentrification included.

[varelse]

254. You don't demand that other taxpayers fund your neighborhood's public services

roads, water, sewage, fire dept, education and all that, and THEN tell them all to stay out of there.

If the area were in private hands and no taxpayer $$$ were used to fund services there, you might just have a point.

[Strelnikov_]

274. "there are people who think they have free range over the whole city"

Yes, they are trying to get from point A to point B.

Are you proposing ghettos? Transit papers with checkpoints to verify said papers?

[ArbustoBuster]

276. You have destroyed your entire argument with your own words.

I quote: "I'm not saying it is right, especially things like blacks not being allowed in white neighborhoods or vice versa. But with regards to religious enclaves like this, it is a bit of a different story."

So if a religion says that black people are bad (for example, Mormonism said this until 1978, when they realized they had to change it or die out), it can keep black people out of a neighborhood?

Quick! Someone tell the KKK to reestablish themselves as a religion!

[csziggy]

297. That rationale would permit the continuance of Jim Crow laws in the South

As well as racial discrimination in the entire country. Sorry, while cultural diversity enriches the US culture overall, allowing small groups with archaic religious attitudes to control the actions of everyone is unconstitutional.

There are plenty of groups with rich cultural heritages that manage to be encompassing and tolerant of others without imposing their beliefs on us all. I would rather support those groups than small intolerant religious fundamentalist sects.

[harmonicon]

349. "... things like blacks not being allowed in white neighborhoods..."

Umm... that's exactly what it's like.

[Betty Karlson]

359. Please ask yourself this one question:

If the complaining community had been Wahhabites, instead of Khassidim, would your reaction have stated the same concern for "centuries of tradition"?

[rhett o rick]

396. So are you saying that certain people cant ride in certain neighborhoods?

How absurd. Painting out bike lanes is a long way from prohibiting bikes. And do you want to prohibit all bikes or only those of a select group you define as hipsters and yuppies. Eliminating bike lanes is only making it more dangerous for bikers. Is that what you want? What exactly do you want and how much freedom are you willing to give up. Or ask others to give up. Do you see putting up signs that say no yuppy bikers allowed. Or maybe, "please stay in your own neighborhoods".

[Venceremos]

416. Interesting

I've lived in major cities, medium size cities and now in a rural area. It's actually a cluster of four small towns (each about the size of an NYC neighborhood) separated by farm land. Three of the towns have a singular ethnicity/religion. One is German, one Belgium, one Swedish and they've been that way for centuries. Only one of the towns is culturally diverse.

My family had no choice but to move to this area as my husband's job brought us here. I'm Irish descent and my husband is "Heinz 57" with dark hair, skin and eyes. When we first got here, we didn't know about the cultural boundaries so we started our house search in the Swedish town. An old lady was walking down the street as we were checking out house for sale signs - she shook her fist at us and yelled "go away". We also had "you're not welcome to live here" experiences in the German and Belgium towns.

So of course we bought our house in the only "mixed culture" town because they welcomed us. And since we're the only town that isn't lily white all the Latinos, African Americans and Asian families in the vicinity bought their house here, too. Some opened ethnic restaurants and shops so we have a decent variety of choices.

The other towns are economically dying but ours is thriving. My neighbors and I refuse to shop in the other towns since they're so snotty about "outsiders" living there. Since we're the only town with variety in our shops & restaurants, the majority of people stopping off the highway spend their money here. And because there are only so many Germans, Belgium and Swedish looking for houses, the other towns had homes for sale that sat empty until they rotted.

Long story short, in my experience the best way to economically destroy a community is to practice the "but this is OUR spot" mentality. In addition, the different cultures here are separated by many acres of land. When you see the "neighborhoods" separated by miles of open space you realize it isn't diversity at all and is actually quite distasteful.

[kestrel91316]

430. Public streets and sidewalks belong to ALL the public and not just some of them.

Historical segregation was a CRIME against humanity. And two wrongs don't make a right.

We do not govern by tit-for-tat.

[dusmcj]

39. Talibaaaaaan!!! more domestic Talibs at work. /nt

[Solly Mack]

42. I'm so weak in my beliefs that I have to control everyone and everything around me

I must create a world where everyone and everything in it bends its will to my religion. I don't give in to temptation because I ban all temptation.



See how pious I am? I can resist all temptation. snicker


I've seen the same dynamic played out in other religious groups as well.

[juno jones]

301. +1

That I might happen to give men hard ons just by staring helplessly at my legs, says a hell of a lot more about them than it does me in the end.

[cliffordu]

43. Again with the fucking religionists and their fucking prudery

weakening public safety this time.

Fuck those little clowns.

[Tailormyst]

44. This makes me want to take a bus full of bikini models for a long walk in Brooklyn.

Why do some cultures refuse to acknowledge that control of a mans sexual thoughts and actions falls upon the MAN, not upon the women?

[Mopar151]

46. Who paid for the sandblasting?

And the original bike lane painting? And the repainting that will occur once this gets high enough in the courts? I think that the Shomrim Patrol otta be billed for the whole deal, thru Bloomberg's campaign office. The piteous moaning and kvetching would be a delight to my secular ears.....
Can the Patrol be charged with impersonating police officers? Here in NH, they have started landing on fake cops hard, 'cuz they are generally up to some bad shit.

[derby378]

54. At least one Hasidim is hoping both sides will calm down and work it out

Last I heard, Matisyahu hasn't taken a position on the bike lanes, but he's apparently asking his fellow Hasidim and everyone else to "ease the tension" instead of letting it spill into the concerts he's now performing in the New York area.

[hayu_lol]

62. Had a thread or two some months ago...

about some Muslim groups asking that footbaths be put up in public bathrooms so that they could wash their feet. Many have used the washbasins for the purpose and this resulted in some basins being torn from the wall.

Footcleansing is required apparently under the Koran but one has to consider the 'unclean' state of bathrooms in the parent countries.

When in Rome used to be a pretty good criteria for personal behavior. Some groups forget this old adage which still makes sense.

[me b zola]

56. Reason 1289 for men to support women's/feminist issues

When the religious assaults on women effect men too, men will speak out.

[texasleo]

57. bad story about Christianity = Christianity is bad. Bad story about ethnic religions =

all religion is bad.


Interesting.

[Tailormyst]

65. I have my own rule

All religions that attempt to push their beliefs on others = Bad and I say that as a spiritual leader (for lack of a better term) within my own religion.

[dgibby]

232. Good idea,

and welcome to DU.

[snagglepuss]

311. You're delusional. There is nothing in this thread about ethnic religions,

the thread is about bunch of wacko fundies - hasidic Jews.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

365. Somebody call the

[mitchum]

58. "You evil women must stop making me lecherous! I demand it!"

[montanto]

66. Think of what a great place the world would be if

we spent all of our community money and time accommodating everyone's freakish personal belief systems. My personal god and savior says "thou shalt not drive thy conveyance upon the hole-y road, lest thou suffer the $200 broken tire, nor shalt thou gaze upon the suggestive signage of superfluous consumption." When are they gonna accommodate me?

Well, anyway, there is an easier solution than erasing the bike lanes, because men use them too. Pass a law that all women wear plate armor at all times in public.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Electric Monk]

96. -5

[WhollyHeretic]

100. That is a gigantic load of crap. It's the religious people who are trying to force their views on

other people. It is not antisemitism. It's about not having religious people try and force their garbage on the rest of us. Should they also be able to make women to dress differently?

[DainBramaged]

101. It's where they live, but I guess it's OK for DU to pass judgement

on communities and religions they don't understand....

[WhollyHeretic]

106. Yes I can pass judgement on assholes forcing their religious beliefs on other people

[DainBramaged]

109. Whatever you want, now they are assholes??

Goodbye, I don't need to read your stupid replies.

[WhollyHeretic]

113. Yes they are assholes. People who try and force their religious beliefs on others are assholes.

You're putting me on your ignore list? I guess that's for the best. Having such a massive ignore list is a great way to protect your ignorance.

[Electric Monk]

119. Taliban apologist. Same argument. Exactly the same.

[snagglepuss]

313. We do understand and its crap.

[taterguy]

131. You'd complain they did something to make their neighborhood less accessible to Chevys

Tell the truth.

[DainBramaged]

138. Nice try, go roll a potato........

:eyes:

[taterguy]

189. Personal attacks, the signature of DU, if you disagree or think those who . . .

Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.

[DainBramaged]

208. Someone has to be the fucking contrarian around here.....

instead of falling in lock step on so many issues JUST because it appeases the pure here. Sorry you and so many others didn't figure that out.


And no sarcasm smiley this time.

:eyes:

[JVS]

171. hahahahaha!

[JVS]

132. +1 but on the other hand the turf war mentality sucks ass

[druidity33]

153. So all we have to do

is disagree with the Hasidim and then we're anti-Semitic? I was born and raised Jewish and i have lived and worked in Brooklyn near Yeshiva. What they are doing is WRONG. I can't see how you or anyone could possibly defend it. No one is interfering with their belief system. I'd venture to say it's the other way around. Not to mention that it's a safety issue. Bike lanes are REALLY IMPORTANT in NYC for preventing accidents.


God forgive you for forgetting that a person can be pious while bicycling in shorts.


oh, and...


:eyes:

[MH1]

233. Um, the story is about a religious group's intolerance changing PUBLIC policy

in a country that is not supposed to make any law respecting the establishment of a religion.

Those people are more than welcome to complain all they want on a message board about the lewdness of my style of dress, but when they take away a public service because their men are too weak to control their urges if they see a patch of exposed skin ... you're complaining about DUers being intolerant??? Huh?

[varelse]

255. Re-painting bike lane markers now equals interfering in religious beliefs?

You know, I don't even think the Torah mentions bike lanes at all. I think you're making that up.

[anigbrowl]

306. I know, right? women wanting to wear shorts and ride bicycles, where will it end

Next thing they'll be having sex and I've heard that leads to dancing.

Seriously, your remarks are unsurprising since you're pretty much a social conservative anyway. There is nothing anti-semetic here, t's not as if they're proposing to hold women's tennis inside a synagogue. When you're out on the public sidewalk you don't get to be the fashion police just because you believe in an extreme form of your particular religion.

If you think criticizing this is anti-semetic, then you'd better take it up with the seeming majority of liberal and reform Jews who think the Hasidim are weird extremists.

[snagglepuss]

312. I have no effing need of forgiveness. You're the one who is defending

intolerance.

[bkozumplik]

342. I'm appalled at you

give me a break.

You're appalled at people who object to religious extremists changing the public space around to eliminate women in bike shorts?
really?

And thats somehow anti-semitic?
Thats a pathetic argument.

[harmonicon]

356. I don't have a "belief system", but you're welcome to bash away.

One thing I'm all for is freedom of expression. Another thing I'm for is freedom of movement. Another thing I'm for is public safety. Yet another is equal rights for all people. I guess that's intolerant of me, since there are others who disagree. It's intolerant of me to despise racism and sexism, since racists and misogynists exist and should be allowed to have their way. It would be intolerant of me to be against spending public funds to persecute a particular group of people so that another group could be accommodated.

[ixion]

384. oh please

no one is interfering with their belief system. They are the ones that can't keep their eyes off women in spandex.

[Stevenmarc]

80. Apparently hyper orthodox Judaism makes ones neck too fragile to turn their head

[Kalyke]

83. So the females Hasidic Jews don't look at bicycling men?

Only the Hasidic men have a sex drive?

Hooo-boy, someone needs to get with the times and realize that women like male bodies, too.

[sakabatou]

90. This is another reason why I hate the religious right

[DainBramaged]

92. (sigh) they aren't the religious right........

[mitchum]

98. Fundamentalists

deny THAT

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DainBramaged]

108. I told you, find someone else, I am not interested, nice try though

[mitchum]

110. But apparently you ARE

you did reply...once again

[DainBramaged]

112. One again, you replied to my response TO SOMEONE ELSE in this thread

and you REFUSE to let our previous argument(and your advances) go, give it up, you are just making yourself to be a fool. If your life is so empty, hire a hooker.

[mitchum]

122. I really am laughing my ass off

you're just too much...

[DainBramaged]

124. Listen, there are hookers on Craig's list, in YOUR city, call now...

you won't be lonely anymore.

[mitchum]

128. What was that song the scarecrow sang? Can you help me out?

Some friends are coming over in a bit and we want to work up some songs from MGM movies. I just can't remember that damn title...

[DainBramaged]

130. You can even search the Google under hookers (fill in your zip code)

or just wait for your friends to come over than you can REALLY party. Remember, wear a condom......

[mitchum]

133. Well, I will certainly defer to your expertise and experience in all of those matters

[DainBramaged]

134. Oh no, you are the expert here, you told everyone so, don't you remember???

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mitchum]

158. Why don't you whine to the fucking mods about this one also?

Go ahead

[Name removed]

209. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sakabatou]

103. The Hassidic aren't the religious right?

Are you daft? The Hassidic are politically right (very far right).

[Name removed]

107. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BrklynLiberal]

178. You are 100% correct.

[BrklynLiberal]

173. I believe they are...the Jewish "Right", as opposed to the Islamic Right or the Christian right.

A fundie is a fundie is a fundie.

I know first hand since I live amongst the Hassidim.
They are as narrow, prejudiced and convinced of their own correctness as any of the other arrogant fundamentalists.

and their attitude is "..if you don't like it...tough shit on you, this is MY world!!"
and they have no qualms about saying just that.
That is how they feel even when they are not in their own neighborhood.

[GoneOffShore]

194. You'r right about that - they're the religious wrong.

[Selatius]

348. OK, they are NOT of the right. They are religious AUTHORITARIANS.

They would impose their views in the public sphere where taxpayer dollars went to pave those streets and paint those lanes. This is no better than Christian fundamentalists trying to rip down Roe v. Wade and shutting down free health clinics that also perform abortions.

[ixion]

380. perhaps not, but they ARE religious extremists and/or zealots

there is no denying that.

[slackmaster]

117. That explains why San Diego does NOT have a large, visible Hasidic community

:headbang:

[taterguy]

129. Wow. I had no idea so many people were interested in bicycle transportation issues

Oh wait.

This is about sex and religion.

Nevermind.

[DainBramaged]

142. Don't you have something else to do, like plow a bike path or something....

[taterguy]

159. a) There aren't many bike paths in my town b) It rarely snows

But c) I'm about to go take my dogs out.

[LostInAnomie]

136. Reminds of that episode of Beavis and Butthead...

... where they sued the hot girl in their class for sexual harrassment because staring at her kept giving them a boner and making it hard for them to work.

[JVS]

137. Doesn't this violate the establishment clause? They really should have come up with a better...

excuse if they were so hell bent on getting rid of the lanes. Make up some shit about parking spots or something.

[Odin2005]

156. These religious loonies need to STFU.

[flvegan]

164. I KNEW this thread wouldn't disappoint.

[madinmaryland]

168. Yeap. Another classic with a few of the usual suspects!

:rofl:

At least one of them has me on ignore from last year. Looks like he added a few more in this thread!!!

[Matariki]

165. Maybe they should just paint their glasses black

if they don't want to see the world they live in?

[BrklynLiberal]

166. Very politically potent voting block in NYC, Bloomberg would NEVER go against them.

x( x( x( x(

[treestar]

167. For once it's not the Christian fundies

Though I can't understand NYC caving on an issue like this.

[BrklynLiberal]

179. Politcally potent voting block VERY politcally potent in NYC

[Raineyb]

220. Because they're quite powerful politically.

Same reason as always.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

180. Who said they have to LOOK at the women in bike shorts?

If the Hasidic women want to wear long sleeves and scarves in a New York summer, that's their problem, but this sounds like a case of control freaks gone wild.

What's next?

No faces showing in the Muslim neighborhoods?

No condoms in the drugstores in Catholic neighborhoods?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

186. Do these idiots never venture outside of their neighborhoods?

Because there's a whole lot of "scantily clad" women all over the city.

[backscatter712]

190. Fundamentalism is a mental disorder.

Doesn't matter if it's fundamentalist Christianity, fundamentalist Islam, fundamentalist Judaism (as this case is), or fundamentalism of any other religion.

They let their religious precepts override reality in their own minds, thus living in a world of delusion, then they try to force their delusion upon everyone else.

Get them some fucking thorazine.

[BrklynLiberal]

199. I must commend you on your eloquence...

:thumbsup: :yourock: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


I agree 100%

[BrklynLiberal]

191. The comments after the article are well worth reading.

http://jonathanturley.org/2009/12/10/new-york-city-erases-bike-lands-to-appease-hasidic-men-who-object-to-seeing-women-in-bike-shorts/#more-18219

I have had similar experiences among my friends and family.

Those evil women–biking around with bare knees! No wonder that community in Brooklyn was in an uproar.

Bare knees? Perish the thought!!! Selling kidneys and laundering money? Not so bad.

New Jersey Mayors, Five Rabbis Arrested in Corruption Probe (Bloomberg.com, 7/24/2009)

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aS75MsiDa4W

[Bonobo]

198. How does the author know the lanes were erased because of pressure from Chasidim? nt

[Strelnikov_]

204. Hipsters repaint bike lanes in brush off to Hasids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19oo7Ejq9WI

[Dorian Gray]

215. Were they doing it ironically?

LOL.

[Alameda]

270. This will be interesting......two very activist groups are engaged.

Bicyclists are very adamant in their right to ride....as are the Hassidim....

[galledgoblin]

206. bike lanes = safer bicyclists.

sorry, I am all for religious tolerance, but I am also for not losing friends to pointless bike-car accidents, and in this case the bicyclists trying to follow the law and ride in the street are in the right.

[NMMNG]

207. This is bullshit

The whole premise behind this is men/boys are incompetent, perverted animals who can't be trusted to behave within the confines of their own social/religious constructs, so others have to be penalized in order to ensure the men/boys will behave. If your chosen religious or social group demands you don't look at women then you need to take the steps to ensure you don't do it, which may include not going to places where women are.

This reminds me exactly of the idiots who scream about how they're "offended" by gay people, then insist the solution is that nobody is allowed to mention the existence of LGBT people, wear anything indicating that they're LGBT, even teach anti-bullying classes (for that's teaching people to be gay in their minds), etc. Everything has to be utterly stripped of the existence of gay people so they can pretend we don't exist.

If your chosen religious or social dogma cause you to want to avoid something then by all means avoid it. But don't expect the rest of the world to adapt for you.

[Lucian]

212. I'm fucking tired how the government caves to fundamentalist religion.

Good god.

[Raster]

216. "If thine eye offends thee..."

[dgibby]

225. So,

What is Bloomberg going to do about women wearing shorts while walking on the sidewalks? Ban the shorts, the women, or tear up the sidewalks?

God forbid the Amish come to town. He'll have to ban autos.

[alcibiades_mystery]

227. Why this story is so Internet Delicious

Hasidim v. The Bicyclists

Oh lawd, could it get any better than that?

:rofl:

[LeftyMom]

230. One can only hope video of the inevitable confrontations winds up YouTube.

Hipsters on fixies vs. hardcore historical reenactors IRL trolling modern society. I want to see choreography and lots of jazz hands.

[scummyjob]

231. what's the problem?

Isn't the Democratic Party solidly behing the political correctness program?

[dgibby]

235. Pardon me,

but would you happen to have any :popcorn:

[Libertas1776]

239. Hardy

freaking har har :sarcasm:

[Strelnikov_]

268. "Isn't the Democratic Party solidly behind the political correctness program?"

What does this have to do with political correctness?

[Libertas1776]

273. Never mind that one,

just a troll with 4 posts under their belt, I figure.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

362. It must have taken a lot of willpower to type that "ic" after "Democrat", didn't it? -nt

[blondeatlast]

423. No, that would be Frank Luntz. Google him, he's one of YOURS. nt

[Roland99]

237. Gotta love archaic and ridiculous aspects of organized religion.

*sigh*

[Canuckistanian]

242. As a man, I HATE these religious nuts

They reinforce the perception that all men are slobbering, lecherous sex fiends who can't control their own behaviors in public.

Hey Hasids, strive to be better human beings instead of trying to force everyone to conform to your "morals".

And that goes for EVERY fucking "moral" religion, whether Christian, Muslim, Cargo Cult or Zoroastrian.

Back off, Jack.

[gordontron]

248. WTF?

:wtf:

[varelse]

253. Maybe it's time for a bikini bike ride

hmm on second thought - little chilly for that just now.

[AlbertCat]

256. Hasids dropped out of "real" life....they can deal with it, not those of us living in reality.

I mean...if you can't handle looking at women's legs, then blind yourself. How weak can you get?

But NYC always kow-tows to Jewish interests....apparently.

I remember trying to go to the Frick but the police wouldn't let anyone cross 5th Ave because of some stupid Israeli parade or something. I don't know what was going on but there were lots of Israeli flags about. A lot.... I mean A LOT of people waited over 50 minute just to cross, and when we did finally get to cross, when the police tried to stop the crossing, a riot was about to break out.

I don't mind Jews or Hindus or Wiccans celebrating whatever....but this was ridiculous. Others live in and visit NYC too, y'know. 50 minutes to cross the fucking street!

[snagglepuss]

314. LOL. That is hysterical.. Thanks for the laugh. nt

[20score]

259. No one should acquiesce to ANY religious nuts in a free society. It is beyond belief that people

here are defending the nutters. How can anyone justify that position? You really want every neighborhood in the country to be subject to the whims of any fanatic that wants things to be "The right way" or "God's way?"
If you do, then you should sequester yourself for years until you learn how to think!

[madamesilverspurs]

262. It was the Victorians who began

using tablecloths because the sight of a table's legs might cause men to think of womens' legs. And if those thoughts led to inappropriate action against a female, it would of course be the the table's fault. With some men, it's always ALWAYS the woman's fault if the men can't control their own impulses. The more things change. . .


---

[connecticut yankee]

378. They didn't call them "legs"

they were "limbs."

[RufusTFirefly]

272. Is it too much to ask for a legitimate news source on this story?

Other than the New York Post, that is, which isn't a legitimate news source.

[juno jones]

285. In case the uptight are lurking:

I like to ride it where I like....

(God I wish I still had my original poster...)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

382. Lurking? They are POSTING! -nt

[RedCloud]

287. What about Nudism? When will there be pubic, er public , support for them?

Enough of these boring as hell religions.

[spotbird]

298. Fundamentalism is cancer

they all look alike.

[valerief]

310. Sound more like Acidic Jews than Hassidic Jews. nt

[beevul]

316. Jeebus, epic thread and for what?

The heart of the problem, can be summed up in one sentence from the article:

"Hasidic leaders complained that they are having trouble obeying their religious law forbidding them from staring at members of the opposite sex with women biking around in shorts."


It is neither the roll nor the responsibility of others outside ones own religion, to make it easier for one to obey ones own religious law, in public. Period.


If they are having trouble obeying thier own religious laws, they need to try harder. If they feel strongly about the uncovered knees of women, they have every right to protest.

They have NO right however, to force force thier own religious views on others in any way shape size or form, in public.

[Deep13]

324. This sounds like bullshit.

Is it even true?

Obviously, if it is then it is outrageous to expect everyone else to conform to a religion they are not part of. No one is forcing folks who wish to live in the bronze age from cycling in NYC.

[Triana]

326. Hasidic men should simply learn to control themselves and stop trying to control women.

They ought to be told that by the city gov't. The lanes ought to stay. The Hasidic men ought to be told to take personal responsibility for their own behavior and to stop trying to make women and the government responsible for it.

[elleng]

327. Wonder how MANY stories could begin like this:

'There is an interesting controversy in Brooklyn after the city yielded to the Hasidic community' ???

[MrScorpio]

352. There's a good reason why government shouldn't relent to religious dogma

It prevents these kind of problems from being spread around.

[defendandprotect]

353. I also find it incredible . . . also that any such thinking still exists in 2009 . .!!!

They should have told these Hasidic men that THEY were the ones with the problems . . .

not the bikers -- !!!

[Behind the Aegis]

360. Did anyone bother to read the article this was based upon?

Given most of the responses, I doubt it. This article fits a need and so it is used.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

363. Ok, I read the NEW YORK POST article you think is better.

Still as fucked up as before.

[Behind the Aegis]

364. Did I say it was better?

It sure does clarify things and not add things like the OP's post.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

367. The blog post only added opinion. The facts are accurate.

And the facts are still fucked up. Public streets are for everybody.

[Behind the Aegis]

369. Opinion, but left out the safety issues.

Were they real concerns or should they have been blown off?

[taterguy]

371. If the lanes were unsafe would they have been installed in the first place?

Maybe if this article was about a small town I'd have my doubts.

However, New York City traffic engineers are quite experienced with bicycle issues and generally very good at what they do.

Do you have any actual evidence to suggest otherwise?

[Behind the Aegis]

374. False assertion.

'If the lanes were unsafe would they have been installed in the first place?"

It is always possible. There are many things that are placed into action, later to be retracted for safety.

"However, New York City traffic engineers are quite experienced with bicycle issues and generally very good at what they do."

Perhaps so, but that is your burden. It doesn't mean they couldn't make mistakes.

"Do you have any actual evidence to suggest otherwise?"

I don't need any. The ones making the claim it is unsafe do, as does NYC.

[taterguy]

392. Public policy should be based on likelihoods, not possibilities

That's why we have engineers.

They go to school and they take the time to study the most likely outcomes of different scenarios.

It's a much better system than building infrastructure based on emotional reactions.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

375. The "safety issue" is religious fundamentalists acting in an unsafe manner because of their religion

Giving in to religious fundamentalism is ALWAYS a bad idea.

With that reasoning, giving radical Muslims the right to apply Sharia law in Europe is just fine.

[ixion]

381. safety issues? They left the vehicle lanes

it seems a large fast-moving hunk of metal would present more of a "safety issue" than a bicycle.

Sorry, that argument is a Red Herring, IMO.

[MH1]

390. If the Hasids had focused only on the safety issue and made a good argument, that would be different

But they didn't! Who brought "I can't control my urges" into the discussion? And by the way, "These riders also were disobeying the traffic laws" is not a strong argument against bike lanes. Some motorists disobey traffic laws, we should eliminate roads?

[MH1]

391. After reading the article and the discussion here I must ask,

do you actually support the notion that it is ok to specify what women are allowed to wear, in order that men will not be tempted to sin?

Just wondering.

[Behind the Aegis]

415. No.

[Echo In Light]

383. It's troubling to realize that the shittiest, stupidest people tend to get their way in this world

[MannyGoldstein]

385. Don't They Realize There's A Reason They Moved From The Russian Pale?

Unbelievable.

They're like the Pilgrims: They demand freedom, but only for themselves.

[The_Commonist]

393. This does not actually stop anybody...

...from riding a bicycle down the street.
Just because there are no bike lanes painted on Bedford Ave, that doesn't mean that babes in shorts still can't ride their bikes down Bedford Ave.
In fact, if I know Williamsburg hipsters, (and I do) this will mean that once it gets warmer, there will be swarms of babes in shorts riding their bikes down the street just to piss these people off.
They really just shoulda kept their mouths shut.

[GETPLANING]

400. Women cyclists should switch to bathing suits

Just my humble opinion

[taterguy]

420. You obviously haven't spent much time on a bike

[AnneD]

403. New York City is not ....

Kabul and the city government is not the Taliban. It does involve safety issues and the Hasidic community needs to realize that seeing a few women in shorts is the price they have to pay for their religious freedom.

[bridgit]

437. That is some in-bred xenophobic thinking

[Deja Q]

439. We rip cloth off of Muslim womens' faces yet we bend over backwards for another religion?

Screw that.

There are valid reasons to show the person's face.

To eliminate safety because some WANKER got his knickers in a knot? What a selfish tit. Force him to bikeride for the rest of his life and see what happens. I bet the lines would be coming back in no time.

Equal treatment for all religions: Fair to practice in private, but keep common decency level for ALL.

Unless "the world is flat" is as subjective as the authors who side with that form of bullshit too.