WWII never destroyed Nazism. You cannot bomb a belief

[Oregone]

WWII stopped Nazi Germany. There was a conventional army, infrastructure, and a war economy ripe for bombing.

Since then, Nazism has continued to spread to every corner of the world, and infiltrated a plethora of prison systems to find recruits. It is a belief that cannot be stopped by bombing or occupying any tract of land.

Radical Islamic extremist is existing much in the state that Nazism (Aryan Nation, etc) exists today: a non-centralized rogue criminal organization without a specific conventional army, economy, and infrastructure.

While one can argue that the actions of WWII prevented the malicious manifestations of Nazism further in the world, by depriving it of a formal army, Al Queda never had that formal army or country in the first place. A war to strip Al Queda of these things Nazism was stripped of cannot exist. Such a parallel of the Afghanistan war to WWII is therefore silly, infantile, and asinine. There are no other words for this dishonest argument.

You can no more bomb Al Queda's country as you can bomb the beliefs that allow Al Queda to exist. You simply cannot destroy these beliefs, themselves, with military intervention.

[The Straight Story]

1. But you can remove their home base and remove their enablers (nt)

[Oregone]

2. And they will find a new home base

A country cannot pick up and find new land and an economy (like Germany could not). But a rogue organization that exists in a plethora of countries? No problem.

[The Straight Story]

7. So we should not have fought Germany?

We removed their home base and removed most of their power.

[Oregone]

13. Germany was a country. We *could* fight them. The problem is trying to fight a BELIEF with an army

[Taverner]

56. EXACTLY!! Excellent save on the trap that was laid out before you.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

58. You seem to be implying that Islamic extremist groups somehow don't have a structure we can destroy

and, in many cases, that's simply untrue.

[Oregone]

74. No, they don't have a structure you can destroy by militaristically occupying Afghanistan

Their structure is dissimilar to a centralized army & country that was referenced recently in a speech by the POTUS

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

79. There being differences does not mean such structure is non-existent

Which is something that was re-emphasized during the Pakistani push into South Waziristan, aside from the bomb making factories and weapons caches uncovered, they were also stumbling over well constructed, cement bunkers and other fortified positions. The idea that you can't severely undercut Islamic militants by destroying such things is rather absurd.

[baldguy]

5. Al Qaeda's enablers are in Saudi Arabia.

Our "freind & ally".

[atreides1]

8. Where exactly is their "home base"

It was in Afghanistan, now it's it Pakistan, tomorrow it could be in Somalia. Are you suggesting that the US go on it's own version of a Jihad, the complete and total destruction of any country on the planet where AQ might turn up?

As for removing their enablers, some of those very enablers are US allies, or at least on a friendly standing with the US.

So, tell us exactly where their "home base" is and give us a list of their enablers.

[Pavulon]

52. Bingo. The effort should be spent using technology and people

to find and remove those people. The goat fuck with an ak is not going to win or loose anything. He is a waste. The target is and has always been the logistics and money guys. When they start turning up dead we make progress.

Everything required to change outcomes will be done (or not done) in the shadows.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

59. I don't think anyone is arguing that we ought to go to war anywhere Islamic extremism pops up

- just as no one in their right mind argues that we should go to war anywhere that Nazism pops up. However, we should be vigilant, and when Islamic extremism crosses into violent action we should be ready to meet that challenge, just as we should be with Nazism.

[Sebastian Doyle]

65. Their home base is Kennebunkport Maine

And their enablers......

[provis99]

3. Nazism left Germany and moved to the American Republican party.

so you're right on the spot.

[havocmom]

6. Yep, especially that part of the GOP that is House of Bush

Comedian Bill Dana said the best kept secret of WWII was that it was still going on. He said it as part of a routine in the early 60s. He was SO right then and now.

[Octafish]

53. It's not just ideology. They put NAZI into practice, big time.

As you know, havocmom, they've done all that is possible to Amerikanize the Fourth Reich

Know your BFEE: Like a NAZI

Know your BFEE: Nazis couldn’t win WWII, so they backed Bushes.

Know your BFEE: Reinhard Gehlen

Remember the last guy to say, "No" to the War Party?

A fact curiously missing from American history and any mention of the Warren Commission

[havocmom]

55. I hear ya, right down to their South American hide-away!

BFEE is Nazi down the line.

[BeatleBoot]

4. Ah, but those Drones sure are effective

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4181201

[seeinfweggos]

9. it certainly set them back a bit

[NJmaverick]

10. How many more Jews, gays and gypsies and the intellectuals have been killed by them since the war

and how does that compare to before the war was won??????

[seeinfweggos]

11. warmonger

[Oregone]

14. Before the war was won, Nazism had a country, army, economy

All such things the war destroyed (but it didn't destroy Nazism).

But Al Queda never had that to start with. Do you not see how this comparison fails to pan out?

[NJmaverick]

15. I fail to see what you want me to see. What I see is that the war effectively ended the horrible

acts they were committing. It's similar to eliminating Afghanistan as a place for terrorist to use as a home base and safe haven for their operations. Just as the Nazis could no longer use Germany. Remember the Nazi party started as as a group, just like Al-Qaeda. It was only after numerous actions to seize power, did they get the advantages of controlling a nation.

[Oregone]

18. "Remember the Nazi party started as..."

A political party working within a government system. That DOES NOT describe Al Queda, which is much more comparable to the Aryan Nation.

"I fail to see what you want me to see"

Its simple.

1) There exists "bad beliefs"

2) You cannot bomb "bad beliefs".

3) You can bomb governments, conventional armies, economic machines, infrastructure that is the core deliverer of maliciousness from a "bad belief" (such as Nazi Germany)

4) Despite stopping Nazi Germany with war, "Nazis", racists, anti-semites still exist, and such a belief will never be snuffed out with bombs.

5) Al Queda is an organization with a "bad belief", but not one with significant bomb-able targets. Occupying and bombing a single geographical region does no more to eliminate the organization, as does attempting to bomb the belief that is responsible for it.

6) Comparing the ability to use war to stop Nazi Germany to the ability to use war in a single location to snuff out an entire belief structure and organization is asinine. Its all so ridiculous.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. You actually know the history of the Base?

You also understand the role of the SAUDI state in support and financing of the base from the 1980s all the way to the early 2000s?

This was not open or overt, and you should also know that the Base also got government support in Somalia and from other friendly governments to the idea of the caliphate under Sharia law.

Nobody would ever compare Al Qaida to the Nazis who understand that history NEVER, EVER repeats itself. That is a bad readying of history and if you think that this is what the President was doing in his speech, I recommend you re-read it. He was only speaking to the evil that is inherent in both, not saying that Nazi Germany under one Adolph Hitler, is the same the Base, under supposedly one Osama Bin Ladin, who is also a perfect example of blowback.

Now your argument that we are fighting an idea is correct. So what should we do? Sit down and do nothing? I have my issues about how this is being done, but the lesson should be you confront evil, even evil ideas... now I quibble on how it is being done, but not confronting is unacceptable.

[Oregone]

21. "Sit down and do nothing?"

Not at all. But launching a conventional war? Come on now? Should we invade countries that are kinda to the Aryan Brotherhood? This is a criminal matter, not a military matter. Just as Obama asserts that peaceful means could not solve this conflict, I assert that the military cannot either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. This conventional war is not about AQ

they are just the excuse...

And the war started in 2003 by the way. At least the current phase...

I disagree with the policy, but not because of AQ, since it has nothing to do with AQ. The Base is just the convenient short hand that people understand. Silk road, not so much. central Asian Game, not so much.

And in the short hand I don't like it... I highly disagree whit it. and I wish leaders chose to treat people like adults. Then again, I fear people are children at times. And if this is so critical, as they seem to believe, explain to the people why... (and control of trade routes may be critical in a world without oil), and for god sakes, get a draft going.

[Oregone]

24. Yes, just the excuse

And its a bad excuse, and I'm concerned that people cannot objectively figure that out.

[onenote]

39. if you think its a criminal matter, how do you propose to address it?

Specifics please?

[Pavulon]

40. It is military, but not always a war.

there are powerful tools available to destroy sources of funding and logistics. Killing meatpuppet willing to die for a god that does not exist is pointless. Killing the people who pay for and arm the conflict is a military matter. It is an ex-judicial process.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

62. Uhm, actually...

one of the trademarks of Nazism from its very inception was that it worked outside of the political system - beating the holy hell out of, torturing, and killing its opponents, for instance. All of this was going on long before Hitler came to power.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

61. Al-Qaeda doesn't have funds rolling in? A fighting force? Territory it operates in freely?

You seem to be under this naive impression that a group must be in charge of an entire nation for them to be a threat or for military means to be effective in attacking them. That's simply untrue.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Let me see from family history

WW II, fifty plus relatives went up the stacks at a place called Treblynka.

Post War Period... Zero

By the way, it is not Nazism that has expanded... and the virus that is the last name to the virus... it is called antisemitism and it has a history of oh 2500 or so years, last time I checked.

The Nazi Party and its ideas about the Jews (and other minorities) actually have their genesis far in the past...

Some subjects you may want to read up on

Ghettos... no, they did not invent them.

Blood libel, not their invention

Jews (and other minorities) as animals... again nope, the outsider has been around for a long time.

I could go on... I think you get the point.

[Oregone]

16. "Post War Period... Zero"

Yes, the war destroyed the conventional army, country, economy, and infrastructure that allowed these beliefs and ideas to manifest in such a malicious way.

But guess what...Al Queda has none of those things to start with. Germany was a country. Al Queda is a rogue international crime ring (like the Aryan Nation is now). A war against Afghanistan cannot do the same to Al Queda as a war did against Germany. They are already in the same status this other belief group (call it anti-semitism if you like, which is probably more accurate). No army in the world can go out and bomb anti-semitism back to the stone age. No army in the world can prevent it from gassing mass populations of people now (they are not currently doing so). And no army in the world can crush an idea set fueling an international criminal organization. Its an asinine comparison people are making here.

Does Al Queda have a formal army guarding concentration camps, where they are torturing and killing westerners? Do they have a single specific economy funding it? Do they have a single geographical location we can drop a bunch of bombs on? No. No. And No.

Al Queda has a bunch of independent cells fueled by all sorts of money sources, driven by an un-bomb-able belief that will never be blown up.

"I could go on... I think you get the point."

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. You should read a history of the rise of the Nazis

and realize they started as mostly cells.

I could suggest a few, but Shirer's rise and fall is still a good one.

[Oregone]

19. Oh how you totally miss it....

If you think you can bomb a belief into nothingness or occupy a specific tract of land to stop an international rogue organization, you have truly lost it. This is the gist of what I am getting at.

The war against Nazi Germany was a success, thanks to targets that were actual able to be bombed. But we could not bomb anti-semitism into nothingness. We also cannot bomb Islamic extremism into nothingness either. Just try...

This is the point here. One instance was a conventional war against a country with an economy and a conventional army. The other instance is a war of occupation to stop an international crime ring. They CANNOT be compared, so much as used as mutual justification.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. And you missed what the President of the US was talking about

you think he was talking about bombing AQ the country to the stone age. No, he was talking about evil.

And evil exists in the world.

I have my issues with the course taken, but he did not compare them in the way you think.

I hate to make a comment that might feel like an insult. But he gave a speech that was an advanced graduate level symposium class, with references to common language those who have taken such courses or read the books understood. The rest... WHOOSSHHH!!!!!

Now I disagree with the policy... but I also understand where the policy is coming from. And if you think it is because of AQ... I have a bridge to sell you. Google Silk Road... and grand central Asian Game. Of course the last major player ended up collapsing but nobody can accuse the empire d jour to believe they are special and will not face the same fate that others have.

But AQ is a form of evil... so are the neocons, they are two sides of the same coin and actually draw from the same source. And that is fear of modernism.

[Oregone]

25. "And evil exists in the world."

And thats where we diverge.

But even if I accepted that as a premise, WWII was not successful in destroying "evil". It destroyed a mechanism that allowed "evil" to manifest. Such a similar destroyable mechanism does not exist in this case, and therefore, the comparison is ridiculous to justify the Afghan war.

I'm not sure why so many are swallowing this line completely though, and carrying his water for him. Aren't Democrats supposed to be smarter and more intellectual than that? Do people here really think we will snuff out evil in this war? Is that *really* what they think it is about? If so, they are being sold a bunch of shit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

Nobody said you can destroy evil

But it does exist in the world.

It may be visible in the stoning of a 13 year old for infractions of Sharia Law... or the 15 year old who stabbed an 11 year old over 35 times (I stopped counting around 35) and almost killed him. It can be a death camp, or the kids I debriefed that were rapped by Batallon 100 soldiers.

I've seen evil... and it is not a warm fuzzy.

I think you've not seen it.

But what you can do with evil is drive it to the darkest recesses of the world or the mind... but destroy it? No.

But those who refuse to acknowledge it...

[Pavulon]

42. Going to Kosovo as a college kid reading about European history

including the holocaust and ww2 was amazing. That was a reality check, deployment up to then was weather related for me. It sucked and messed up my plans but was worth it to prevent the massacre in progress there. That was a good use of US power.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. I came THIS CLOSE to volunteeering to go there...

but hubby pointed this out. He was already in the line of fire, as it were.

Why? Well today I posted a christmas card to Poland, to a widow. Her husband and his family kept my dad's alive during the War. So there is this connection that I cannot explain to most folks.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

66. You know, it's not the idea I'm worried about, it's the guys wearing the suicide vests.

Yes, sure, wonderful, you can't kill ideas. I think we all get that. However, you *can* kill the people who have heavily ingested those ideas to the point where they think using retarded people as suicide bombers or throwing acid in girls' faces is acceptable behavior.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

63. Same was true of the Italian Fascists

[leftstreet]

26. K&R

You make some excellent points

[ddeclue]

27. As someone born there and who lived there..yes it did..it blew the crap out of it.

[Oregone]

28. Ok. Sorry. I guess we don't have to worry about anti-semitic movements anymore

Too bad we don't have a similar country, army, infrastruture, economy to bomb in this case, eh?

[ddeclue]

29. Those are NEO Nazis.. assuming they are Nazis..

the originals are all gone...

[Oregone]

30. When are we going to start bombing shit to get rid of em?

Clearly such evil can be destroyed by militaristic means (which contradicts why the ideas still exist)

[ddeclue]

31. Clearly it WAS destroyed..

:eyes:

[Oregone]

32. Im pretty sure a country & army was destroyed

The ideas, eh, well, they are much alive.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

68. Do you sincerely believe Neo-Nazis to be a threat equal to that posed by either

Nazi Germany or al-Qaeda? If so, let's hear some specifics.

[Oregone]

73. No, I think that they are more organizationally similar though to Al Queda than Nazi Germany

I don't think the same tactics to stop Nazi Germany, nor same justifications, should be bent to a completely different scenario in time (Aryans or Al Queda)

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

80. Organizationally, I'd say you're correct

I would point out, however, that the tactics used to stop Nazi Germany are not being used in Afghanistan. There is no Afghan equivelant to the firebombing of Dresden, for instance.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

67. Again, why do you have this belief that an organization must control an entire country before it can

be harmed militarily? That's just insanity...

[TheWebHead]

33. it destroyed a nazi regime in arguably the era's most powerful military

if Nazis no longer control a government and the access to a country's instruments of war, they're rendered as powerless on a relative basis as al Qaeda.

[Oregone]

34. Of course it did, as I already said. But it did not destroy the ideas.

It destroyed a country & military that enabled the ideas to bring malevolence to the world. Al Queda has no country and military to destroy. They are already in the same boat, and operate in a VERY different manner than the Nazi regime.

IOW...UNCOMPARABLE EVENTS

[Pavulon]

44. Not really, japan played on ideas of religion

to motivate people to fight. some were ignorant assholes just fighting because of a belief system, some actually fought based on their understanding of power and colonial systems in place at the time. You can not kill an idea, you can kill people who act on them and spread the idea. Then a person gets to weigh their life against their belief system.

Just a matter of who is the most motivated. I can tell you that we were willing to kill people at the rate of 3000 a second for days straight in Tokyo. That tends to break a belief system down.

[Oregone]

45. Hang on a minute...Japan is a country right?

You can actually bomb one of those

[Pavulon]

49. Yep. And you can kill a guy

who pumps money or logistics into the system. Not a complex thing. We are busy killing meatpuppets. We need to pay attention to the logistics and funding guys, wherever they are. The jihad crowd has nothing to loose, the money guys in zurich or saudi may be smart enough to enjoy his life. When it becomes apparent his peers are having accidents he may find a new career. If not maybe some one will find him in a toilet stall with a needle in his arm.

Fighting a belief system is possible and has been done before. People are people and they can be motivated.

[Oregone]

51. I agree with that

I understand that it might get "dirty". But what they are doing now isn't aimed at fighting Al Queda. Its aimed at occupying a country. Such a screwed up methodology may suggest they have no interest in fighting these people in the first place

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

70. Yes, you can. However, you can also bomb non-governmental entitites.

[Oregone]

76. But they probably aren't located in the same geographical region...

:)

Look, the main problem I have here is using WWII to justify the war in Afghanistan (as a war against evil that has been proven to work in the past).

The scenarios CANNOT be compared with a rational mind.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

81. All the eggs are not in one basket, sure, however...

many of them are.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

69. Who's been comparing them with such regularlity that you felt the need to post this, anyway?

[Oregone]

77. Maybe you missed the shake-up

To paraphrase from Obama's peace prize speech the best I can, and deconstruct it into a logical argument:

1) Evil Exists

2) Peaceful means will not stop evil

3) Nazi Germany was evil and destroyed with the military

4) Al Queda is evil

Hence, the militaristic war in Afghanistan will stop the evil of Al Queda (like the war in Germany stopped the Nazis)

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

82. Ah, yes, I missed the speech

Thanks.

[rockymountaindem]

35. Well, the Enlightenment and the industrial revolution didn't destroy belief in witchcraft, trolls,

demons, faeries, or goblins, but they ain't what they used to be.

This OP is a real stretch. I agree that you can't compare Al Qaeda to Nazi Germany. However to argue that WWII didn't "destroy" fascism seems silly. Sure there are still individual fascists and Nazis here and there, but as a mass movement it is (as the Germans say) kaput.

[Oregone]

36. WWII did not destroy fascism whatsoever

Countries slide into it often, even today, at least in part.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

71. Fascism has rarely been clearly defined

which, quite frankly, is the only reason anyone can believe what you believe. If we accept that Nazis are fascists (debatable...) than fascism is generally rare.

[Oregone]

75. Read "What is Fascism"

Nazism and Fascism are separate concepts that share similarities and converged into a population. They can both exist without each other.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

83. Mussolini?

He rarely spoke in clear terms on the matter himself. With that said, I agree with your assessment in this post.

[JVS]

84. Alfredo Rocco and Mario Palmieri put together theoretical frameworks for fascism

More people should read them, because the understanding of fascism in their own terms is terribly lacking.

[stray cat]

37. I suspect those who were alive to leave concentration camps were not complaining

[Pavulon]

38. See post war pacifist japan..

in an open war, which we are not fighting, you can kill the enemy until he gives up or no longer exists. In a literal, lemay like, approach.

[Oregone]

46. Oh, you mean a bombable country/army/land/economy

Ya don't get it, eh?

[Pavulon]

50. See gerald bull, if word got out

that if you fund pr provide logistics to kill americans you life is forfeit that changes the game. Money and logistics guys should be the target, not some goat fuck on the ground with an ak.

[madokie]

41. fighting Al Queda with bullets and bombs is only making them stronger

you have to work on the reasons for Al Queda and then go from there but there is no killing them off by guns and cannons. Sooner we figure that out the better off we'll be.

[Pavulon]

43. Killing meatpuppets on the ground is pointless.

killing the people who pay for and organize their operations is a more fruitful approach. Those people may be in khost or geneva. Either way they are real high value targets and shoule be the focus of our fight.

[madokie]

54. You'll get no argument from me

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

72. How do you figure?

[madokie]

85. you must have missed the first part I said

read it for your answer

[alcibiades_mystery]

47. WWII made Nazism irrelevant

Contemporary Nazis are clowns, at best.

[Oregone]

48. Yes, it stripped it of a specific centralized country, economy, army, infrastructure

And Al Queda has none of those to start with. Seems like a shitty comparison to make.



Im amazed that people cannot grasp this leap in mental gymnastics

[varelse]

57. Correct

with thousands of years of history providing repeated illustrations of this fact, you'd think we would finally get this. :(

A "a non-centralized rogue criminal organization without a specific conventional army, economy, and infrastructure" is an apt description of both movements. What makes war such a worthless weapon against such an enemy is that they lack all of the usual vulnerable points that a convential (nation or state-based) enemy has: namely, a specific conventional army, an economy, and infrastructure.

You bomb and shell the hell out of the country they happen to be occupying, and guess what? They move on, leaving a wake of destruction behind, but also... a new generation of deadly enemies for you.

And we just don't seem to be learning.

[Kansas Wyatt]

60. Didn't the Nazis just transfer to our CIA?

[Mithreal]

78. kick