Face it: Raw capitalism is antithetical to and utterly destructive to democracy.

[ConsAreLiars]

Capitalism is, very briefly, a system of laws and rights and powers in which the work and productive capability of the many is acquired by the few instead of being shared by those whose labor created the new value.

Unsurprisingly, within that framework and system, those few who acquire more become more influential and control more of the levers, including in particular control over laws and regulations, that enable them to gain more power ands riches.

So, being neither dumbasses nor humane, they follow that route. A few heirs within that class may fall away, but the persistent continue and the trajectory is the one that has brought us to the here and the now, where world conquest has a higher priority than health and education for the people here, or anywhere.

[leftstreet]

1. Why did you qualify it with 'raw?'

Just curious

[ConsAreLiars]

2. There's an argument often made that capitalism can be "regulated."

I think capitalism is the embodiment of the most destructive and venal aspect of the human potential, but, to wander off into psycho-jargon, the id must be controlled by the ego or death is the result.

Edit to add:
Marx, 140 or so years ago, praised capitalism for breaking feudalism and then projected that the continued accumulation of capital and power would lead to something pretty much like today's world.

"Raw" means unfettered and Natural Born Capitalism.

[blindpig]

8. It's all the same

Regulation is a chimera, an impossible beast. It always fails, perhaps after providing a brief respite and cover for the criminals. This is the story of the past hundred years. We should stop qualifying capitalism, it is what it is, an inexorable machine generating unimaginable wealth for the few, misery and servitude for the many and ecological collapse for the planet.

[Scruffy1]

29. You are so right

There is no way to reform capitalism. Any temporary measures are doomed to failure hwen pitted against the plutocracy and their powerful propaganda machine. Trade unionism was seen as a great hope but is now so dead that it is relevant. Banking reforms were simply undone through a corrupt process. The people who fought and died for these reforms died in vain. Reforming capitalism is like reforming a serial killer.

[marmar]

33. Absolutely. Regulation has always been and always will be a chimera.

No matter how much "regulation" you toss up, eventually you'll get back to the conditions that led to the Great Depression and the most recent collapse.

[backscatter712]

38. Capitalism was successfully regulated for decades.

After Glass Steagal was passed in the wake of the Great Depression, along with countless other acts of regulation, America experience the greatest expansion of the middle class in history and became the economic superpower of the world. The expansion of wealth benefited everyone, including the super-wealthy.

It's after Glass Steagal was repealed, along with other New Deal era regulation, and Wall Street went off the rails, that we got in our current mess. The super-wealthy decided that they'd rather destroy everyone's wealth, including their own, just so they get a larger percentage of the total wealth that's left.

Regulation is possible, and absolutely necessary.

[blindpig]

40. A blip between bubbles....

which they began to jettison as soon as WWII was over. Overall the history of capitalism has been that of unbridled exploitation with short bits of 'reform' brought on when the crash inevitably occurs and then bidness as usual.

There's no reforming capitalism or regulating it for any but the shortest term, the demand of growth is too great.

[Vidar]

3. K&R.

[Juche]

4. Unregulated capitalism leads to plutocracy

As capital is monopolized in a handful of people, those people end up having more and more control over the levers of power. The media, politicians, think tanks, the military, the church.

Luckily the military doesn't seem to be 'bought' yet (blackwater not withstanding). However other levers of influence have been bought already. Politics, think tanks, (parts of) the media and arguably the church are all tools that the wealthy have working for them to further their interests.



The system right now works like this from what I can tell:


Wealthy families and institutions fund think tanks full of people who know how to write policy and opinion designed to benefit the wealthy, but appeal to the working/middle class enough to get them to think it is in their interest too. Cato, heritage, etc.

The think tanks give that info to politicians and the media

They parrot them, and convince the middle class that those policies designed to benefit the wealthy are in the best interest of the middle class.

Laws are passed to benefit the wealthy, who now have more capital to do it all over again. Their hold on the US is cemented.



Ask the average dittohead his opinions on anything economic. Chances are good that he supports policies that directly benefit wealthy people across the board and opposes anything that'd directly benefit the middle class. S/he is opposed to unions, environmental regulations, minimum wages, consumer protection agencies, trial lawyers but they are in favor of lower taxes on capital gains, dividends, federal income taxes.

The argument of dittoheads on economics is this:

If a policy directly benefits the wealthy, it will eventually indirectly benefit the middle class. Lower taxes and regulations on the rich will increase hiring and wages.

If a policy directly benefits the middle class, it will indirectly harm the middle class. Unions, minimum wages, environmental and consumer regulations, universal healthcare, etc will increase costs and lose jobs.

Its bullshit (Reaganomics didn't create jobs. We've raised the minimum wage 17+ times and people still hire entry level workers. the economy grew under Clintons more progressive tax rates, etc). But it works. Directly helping the wealthy = good. Directly helping the middle class = bad. That is the thinking of the dittoheads. And its not a coincidence. The conservative movement likes to pretend its about race, or class, or abortion but at the end of the day it is always about giving the wealthy what they want. More power and control. If people have to fake like its about welfare (for lazy blacks and mexicans who shouldn't be here anyway), or abortion then so be it. Once those distractions have won an election, the plutocrats get what they want anyway.

The tools use to manipulate dittoheads is usually playing on reciprocation by telling them that they (the hard working white people) are paying money into a system that lazy blacks and illegal mexicans are milking without contributing to. And use class and national divisions. Turning straights against gays, whites against blacks, Americans against mexicans. They know how to win over angry white Americans to their way of thinking. Play on their sense of outrage and xenophobia. Fill them with misinformation about economics.

Sadly it works. Its all very sad. We are a plutocracy for all intents and purposes.

[Shanti Mama]

5. "Raw" is right.

The "American Dream" is built on capitalism. Motivation derived from a desire to better one's family's future is, arguably, the most powerful there is.

The now $64 bazillion dollar question is -- how do you keep it in check, keeping the motivation to work hard for a better life while discouraging (?) greed?

I've been a capitalist nearly my entire adult life and have had a great time, netted about zero wealth, but created a bit of wealth for a lot of other people. Don't the baby out with the bath water... seems to be my favorite saying these days.

[TheWebHead]

6. there are restraints in the current system

we have corporate taxes
we have tiered income taxes which 42% of Americans don't pay
we have inheritance taxes
we have capital gains taxes
we have antitrust laws
we have the EPA, FDA, USDA, SEC, FCC, etc.
we have govt provided services and many social safety nets

all of the above provide a better quality of life for all those in the population while provided the better opportunity of life for those who reach the financial plateau. Many of these advantages have put us in an uncompetitive position vs. countries with a better fiscal outlook, higher growth rate and lower costs of doing business.

[fasttense]

7. Let's discuss each of your listed supposed restraints on our capitalist system.

Corporate taxes - Most corporations pay less than 1% in taxes. So obviously this supposed constraint is NOT working.

The progressive income tax is not so progressive. Those on the bottom pay upward to 25% of their earned income in taxes. While if you just sit by the pool waiting for a dividend check you pay ONLY 15%. But that is not enough for the uber wealthy, they still find loop hole after loop hole to hide their money away from the IRS. But you mentioned that.

Inheritance tax, the Paris Hilton tax, that the Wal-Mart tycoons, the Waltons, want you to do away with. You know that sad story about the family farmer having to pay huge amounts in inheritance taxes is pure BS. NO one, not a single newspaper, has been able to find this fictitious farmer. We're lucky the Waltons were not successful in destroying this tax, but they tried.

Capital gains tax are 15%. Yet, if I go out and work for my money, I get taxed at 25%, even Warren Buffett said he didn't understand why he paid less taxes than his secretary.

Antitrust laws, those are a joke. When was the last time our gubermint took any action against monopolies? Let's look at all the monopolies in this country. There are just a handful of Oil corporations controlling us all, there are what 5 banks that are so huge, our gubermint had to bail them out because if they failed they would bring the country's economy to a halt. Where oh where were those pesky little antitrust laws before the banks blackmailed this country?

Then there is the alphabet soup of ineffectual regulatory bodies established by congress. None of which seemed to be working. We have poison in our toys, disease in our foods, poison and disease in our water, rivers, lakes and oceans, animal species are dying out at unprecedented levels, and they even want to clear top mine in our national parks. Then the financial regulatory bodies stood around with their hands in their pockets while the bank/Wall Street/Insurance conglomerates took down our economy.

Now lets look at the social services our gubermint provides.

Social Security is a scam. For the 1st time in history, Ronnie Raygun forced a generation to pay both our parents' and our own (in the form of the social security trust fund) retirements. So, then the gubermint takes our trust fund and declares it can't afford to pay us back the funds we put into it. To add insult to injury, our gubermint plays around with the inflation estimates so that they can get away with paying out less of our own money that we put into the system.

Welfare is a joke. You have to be starving to qualify and even then, it is useless otherwise we wouldn't have so many people living in the streets. Nearly half the children in the US are receiving food stamps. Now, what happened there? Why are our families starving? And don't get sick before you reach retirement age because you can't afford to pay your doctor or monopolistic health insurance corporation.

One point about that lower cost of doing business in other countries. You mean China and India. Did you know China provides its citizens with free food, free education, free health care? India provides free education and free health care. And did you know a lot of those cheaper countries (not all) use child and slave labor in making those crappy things it sells in Wal-Mart?

OK, rant off. I just thought you should know.

[Scruffy1]

30. Great post

And I think the taxes we pay just go to line the MIC pockets. The people get diddly.

[defendandprotect]

9. Absolutely . . .

Capitalism is a system intended to move the wealth and resources of a nation from the

many to the few -- and it does that quite successfully.

New Deal slowed it down a bit by regulating capitalism --

Un-regulated capitalism is merely organized crime!!

[Cerridwen]

10. Raw capitalism as versus utopian capitalism, i.e., "well regulated"

capitalism?

"Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone." ~~John Maynard Keynes

I guess we socialistic types aren't the only dreamers.

Oh, hey, has anyone else ever noticed how many socialistic systems capitalists rely upon to maintain their capitalistic power? You know, military, roads, libraries, public schools, police forces, etc.

[defendandprotect]

11. It did what the corporations, elites, capitalists wanted it to do . . .

increase their wealth and weaken American Labor and move us toward a

"third world America" . . .

In fact, corporations and Repugs are looking for more ways to steal --

We need to overturn the trade agreements --

:)

[Greyhound]

41. +01

:applause:
:hi:

[branders seine]

12. Capitalism is the opposite of democracy.

the two are utterly incompatible.

[WT Fuheck]

22. Even regulated capitalism like we used to have?

[blindpig]

35. Shell game

Capitalism gets regulated when it's excesses become so great as to threaten it's existence. As soon as the crisis seems to have passed it's back to bidness as usual and here we go again. It's a bad joke and it's on us.

[onenote]

42. so did the founding fathers not believe in democracy?

sure, it was a mostly agrarian society, but it wasn't collective farming -- it was agrarian capitalism, with virtually no regulation at all.

[Unvanguard]

13. Pretty much. But what are we going to do about it? n/t

[Mithreal]

14. The Paris Hilton Tax

[murdoch]

15. Capitalism is destructive to capitalism

Capitalism is not only a destructive system, it is a self destructive system. The capitalists who control the government just robbed the taxpayers of hundreds of billions of dollars because their economic system of expropriating profits from wage slaves has been going through increasingly severe crises.

[blindpig]

32. Yep

And they keep covering their bad bets on our dime, because they can.

Somethin' gotta give....

[AllentownJake]

16. First thing you do when you win

Is if you have the ability, write the rules that ensure you keep winning. Human nature.

[NYC Democrat]

17. your right which is why WE DON'T HAVE PURELY CAPITALISTIC SYSTEM.

[ConsAreLiars]

18. Apart from the CAPS and spelling error and posing a false strawman,

I'm not sure what you are trying to say other than some variant of "I love my masters and will serve them well because they have not yet murdered me and the corpses piling up around the world really don't smell all that bad." Maybe you can elaborate further on why you are a loyal suck-up to and supporter of the parasite class?

[WeDidIt]

19. That might apply if we weren't governed under a representative republic.

We are not a democracy, so no dangers from capitalism there.

And fortunately, we have regulated capitalism in this representative republic. Our problem right now is we need to increase the level of regulation.

But don't let something like facts get in the way of a good rant.

[ConsAreLiars]

20. You've got the talking points down well.

As usual.

And you are right, this is not a democracy. What you and your kind will not acknowledge is that it is a system in which power is based on wealth and wealth is based on the economic system that is actually in place and thus is self-perpetuating through that system. Your libertarian Cato Institute mumbo-jumbo blatherings do not change those basic realities.

[WeDidIt]

21. Ad hominem accusations are the usual modus operandi

when somebody doesn't have an argument.

I am not a libertarian, nor do I support the Cato Institute in any way shape or manner.

Furthermore, I simply stated facts, not talking points.

The fact is, this nation operates under regulated capitalism. The problem is, there is not enough regulation. When well regulated, our capitalistic system functions very well. When laissez faire capitalism takes hold, all hell breaks loose as demonstrated with our current mess.

[ConsAreLiars]

34. Your nonsense repetition of meaningless mass-promoted slogans is not justified by insulting me.

You attack me personally, when I attacked not you, but the corporatist drivel that you had regurgitated in that initial comment. I never said you were a member of the Cato gang of whores and mercenaries or the libertarian gang of whores and jackasses. I said, accurately, that you were just repeating the BS and diversionary blather they get paid to produce and promulgate,

What possible relevance does this have: "That might apply if we weren't governed under a representative republic. We are not a democracy, so no dangers from capitalism there."

I might say you can't possibly be so stupid as to repeat that lame libertarian 'justification' for the power held by the powerful, or be so dimwitted as to think that arguing that the US is not a democracy somehow is contrary to the point that capitalism and democracy are incompatible. But I won't, since you'd surely prove me wrong.

[lonestarnot]

24. Apparently he has his.

:evilgrin:

[Echo In Light]

23. And our "elected" representatives represent who, exactly?

[WeDidIt]

27. Most people don't vote

So we have precisely the government we collectively deserve.

[Echo In Light]

36. That doesn't accurately answer the question

[lonestarnot]

25. Too late to rec!

:kick:

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

26. One of the things I notice

is that nowhere, I repeat NOWHERE in the Constitution or Declaration of Independence is capitalism mentioned. Yet here in America if you so much as think (well maybe not yet), or maybe talk about benefits and advantages to using other economic systems/ideas/processes you are immediately marginalized, or worse.
What people don't realize is that capitalism is a good way to bring a large amount of items to a large amount of people in a short period of time. Having said that, my being able to go to the grocery store and buy bananas or pineapples, for example, any time I want is a result of the bloody, slimy side of capitalism.
In the long run, the system was set up to benefit those who started the race 10 steps from the finish line. The rest of us, starting a quarter mile back, are told with hard work and sensible decisions, we too can win the race.
It's human nature more or less that once you have tasted the sweet nectar of more money than you need, you set about protecting it. You manufacture myths and stories about how anyone can get rich in America. While a few who start that race a quarter mile back do get rich, most of us barely move a few feet toward that goal..........

[harun]

37. Me as well

One of the biggest myth's that conservatives purvey to all is the myth that you too will be rich. It is fundamental for them to preach that you too will win the race. Without that myth (and others) their ideology breaks down rather quickly.

[Odin2005]

28. Capitalism itself is antithetical to democracy.

Every corporation is a plutocratic totalitarian police state that we give up our freedoms to everyday when we go to work.

[varelse]

31. If by "raw" you mean insufficiently regulated

Then I agree with you.

[fascisthunter]

39. that's why we had so many publicly funded programs to offset...

capitalisms effects on society and government. One thing conservatives never seem to realize... it's an imperfect solution, but it did a pretty decent job for many years. Now with the chipping away of the "commons", we are losing our ability to offset all capitalisms repercusions. SO while capitalism helps drive wealth into fewer hands, the majority of the country has no way of competing with large campaign donors. The people are never represented and now we see what that has done to this country.

But of course it will be all glossed over as an issue between the left vs right, when in actuality there is no representation of the left at all.