Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Intellectually-dishonest debate tactics

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 09:12 AM
Original message
Intellectually-dishonest debate tactics


http://www.johntreed.com/debate.html

Intellectually-dishonest debate tactics are typically employed by dishonest politicians, lawyers of guilty parties, dishonest salespeople, cads, cults, and others who are attempting to perpetrate a fraud. My real estate opponents, in general, are either charlatans or con men. As such, they have no choice but to employ intellectually-dishonest tactics both to prove that I am wrong and to persuade you to buy their products and services. My coaching opponents are generally not charlatans or con men, but many are quite political. Those who dislike my military views are also career politicians notwithstanding their claims to be “selfless servant warriors.”

Here is a list of the intellectually-dishonest debate tactics I have identified thus far. I would appreciate any help from readers to expand the list or to better define each tactic. I am numbering the list in order to refer back to it quickly elsewhere at this Web site.

Name calling: debater tries to diminish the argument of his opponent by calling the opponent a name that is subjective and unattractive; for example, cult members and bad real estate gurus typically warn the targets of their frauds that “dream stealers” will try to tell them the cult or guru is giving them bad advice; name calling is only intellectually dishonest when the name in question is ill defined or is so subjective that it tells the listener more about the speaker than the person being spoken about; there is nothing wrong with using a name that is relevant and objectively defined; the most common example of name calling against me is “negative;” in coaching, the critics of coaches are often college professors and the word “professor” is used as a name-calling tactic by the coaches who are the targets of the criticism in question; as a coach, I have been criticized as being “too intense,” a common put-down of successful youth and high school coaches. People who criticize their former employer are dishonestly dismissed as “disgruntled” or “bitter.” These are all efforts to distract the audience by changing the subject because the speaker cannot refute the facts or logic of the opponent.

Changing the subject: debater is losing so he tries to redirect the attention of the audience to another subject area where he thinks he can look better relative to the person he is debating

Questioning the motives of the opponent: this is a form of tactic number 2 changing the subject; as stated above, it is prohibited by

Robert’s Rule of Order 43; a typical tactic used against critics is to say, “They’re just trying to sell newspapers” or in my case, books—questioning motives is not always wrong; only when it is used to prove the opponent’s facts or logic wrong is it invalid

Citing irrelevant facts or logic: this is another form of tactic Number 2 changing the subject

False premise: debater makes a statement that assumes some other fact has already been proven when it has not; in court, such a statement will be objected to by opposing counsel on the grounds that it “assumes facts not in evidence”

Hearsay: debater cites something he heard but has not confirmed through his own personal observation or research from reliable sources

Unqualified expert opinion: debater gives or cites an apparently expert opinion which is not from a qualified expert; in court, an expert must prove his qualifications before he can give an opinion

Sloganeering: Debater uses a slogan rather than using facts or logic. Slogans are vague sentences or phrases that derive their power from rhetorical devices like alliteration, repetition, cadence, or rhyming; Rich Dad Poor Dad’s “Don’t work for money, make money work for you” is a classic example. In sports, coaches frequently rely on cliches, a less rhetorical form of slogan, to deflect criticism.

Motivation end justifies dishonest means: debater admits he is lying or using fallacious logic but excuses this on the grounds that he is
motivating the audience to accomplish a good thing and that end justifies the intellectually-dishonest means

Cult of personality: debater attempts to make the likability of each debate opponent the focus of the debate on the grounds that he believes he is more likable than the opponent

Vagueness: debater seems to cite facts or logic, but his terms are so vague that no facts or logic are present

Playing on widely held fantasies: debater offers facts or logic that support the fantasies of the audience thereby triggering powerful desires to believe that override normal desire for truth or logic

Claiming privacy with regard to claims about self: debater makes favorable claims about himself, but when asked for details or proof of the claims, refuses to provide any claiming privacy

Stereotyping: debater “proves” his point about a particular person by citing a stereotype that supposedly applies to the group that opponent is a member of; dismissing criticism by academic researchers by citing Ivory Tower stereotypes is an example of this debate tactic

Scapegoating: debater blames problems on persons other than the audience; this is a negative version of playing on widely-held fantasies; it plays on widely-held animosities or dislikes
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'd add pretty much any comprehensive list of logical fallacies. (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Orrex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
2. A good list!
I'd like to add two bits to tactic number two, if I may:

1. Accusations of defensiveness: in practice, the intent is to change the discussion from the topic at hand to a debate about whether or not the person is acting defensively. Ironically, the accusation suggests that, by becoming defensive, the person is failing to engage the primary topic, while in fact the person making the accusation has diverted the discussion to the secondary topic. As a rhetorical trick, it's effective because any response to "you're being defensive" can easily be dismissed as "being defensive" in turn.

2. Accusations of "taking it personally:" Very similar to the above, but it also implies that the accused lacks maturity or professional objectivity. May be paired with a suggestion that the accused holds an uncomfortably personal stake in the outcome of the discussion or else harbors some secret agenda that would compromise the validity of her argument if revealed outright.

Both of these are tactics of distraction, and I encounter both of them frequently on DU and in real life.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
3. K&R ...another, dismiss unfavorable views as "whining."
When I find a poster frequently using that word it's almost always someone whose other stated views reflect a very specific mentality that I avoid like the plague.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
4. Isn't that the point of debate - to determine the legitimacy of an intellectual
Edited on Sat Dec-12-09 09:53 AM by geckosfeet
argument, position or line of logic? Sadly what is often observed in what passes for debate is that the debaters progress through and employ all or some of the tactics you have described in your OP.

I agree with nearly all you have said. Using debate as a tool to poke holes in another position while bolstering your own position is also a bit dishonest in that it's ultimate aim is entirely self serving. In an ideal altruistic world, debate would serve to explore positions with the aim of distilling fundamental truths and objective reality from various positions. In general I find that ones position on a topic is formed by their own experience, most of which is irrelevant to almost everyone else. But at the core of every position is a shared bit which is relevant and more universally true.

I often find peoples positions (including myself) on certain topics ARE based on completely subjective criteria. Frequently, when said positions are subjected to the light of day we find that they are vaguely defined or based on irrelevant, false, erroneous information. But this is the purpose of debate. To uncover a small granule of some fundamental truth.

IMO debate taken in it's purest form is scientific inquiry. Make a hypothesis and determine it's validity with empirically derived data.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. "In an ideal altruistic world,
Edited on Sat Dec-12-09 09:59 AM by G_j
In an ideal altruistic world, debate would serve to explore positions with the aim of distilling fundamental truths"

so true,
if the true goal of discussion/debate was the enlightenment and betterment of the community as a whole, self serving interests would naturally be put aside.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
6. Good stuff, thanks for posting
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
7. Every item you have listed can be characterized as at least one logical fallacy
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
8. Intellectual Extortion
Al Gore said it well:

When you have the facts on your side, argue the facts.
When you have the law on your side, argue the law.
When you have neither, holler.


Thanks for another outstanding and useful post, G_j! Lots of lawyers around, these days.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. never heard that quote from Gore
good one!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
10. 'what a silly and childish, immature thing to say
'The kneejerk reactions thank God it passed Please, I implore you, stop playing the childish cowardly games and address the very real concerns to your OP that I've laid out. Bet you don't even know where to begin in making your case or overcoming my logic. That's ok though; I expected such. I knew from the start that your irrational position had no legs to stand on.'


From the late nefarious mouth of OPERATIONMINDCRIME.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3865783#3867156

I enjoyed this post but thought I would put an example of
one of the most dishonest debaters ever.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. LOL
OMC pretty much covered ALL the bases!

:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. Bookmarked. K&R Thanks for posting. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
13. What is it when you mistake an anonymous internet forum for a formal debate arena?
Sometimes it's pretty clear that a poster has a definite agenda, and that all of their posts reflect that agenda. Other members of the forum will continue to point that out no matter how many threads are started with the word "intellectual" in the title.

:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Hm, citing irrelevancy & questioning motives of speaker. A twofer, at least.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
14. excellent!

bookmarked and recommended.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
16. Is this the manual for some of the posting on DU lately?
Recommended and bookmarked.
BHN
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jotsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
17. So if I'm refereed to in two fairly short posts as wasting time, being disruptive and jabbering
glittery generalizations, is there a way to peg the level of intellectual honesty without more context?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. the context is the subject
a good 'debate' requires people providing factual information, and opinions based on that information.
(my definition, anyway)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jotsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Then I guess this wouldn't qualify as no points of fact were ever really exchanged.
But thanx for your prompt reply, I'll scratch my head some more and try to figure out why the other poster succeeded in making me feel belittled I got a bit sassy. I am not proud, but don't get the mocking, I'm too old to feel so stung by unseen and rarely run into peers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. well this is general discussion, basically.. talk
Edited on Sat Dec-12-09 09:47 PM by G_j
sometimes rising to the level of debate, sometimes just verbal entertainment.
It is hoped that people try to be respectful. but as anywhere, some folks are just mean.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
19. This is internet debate protocol 101. The very first AOL chat room I ever entered back in those
Edited on Sat Dec-12-09 09:29 PM by apocalypsehow
heady days of 1994 - remember how cool it was to be on AOL then? - had multiple example of all of the above. I also remember being struck by how the relative anonymity of the entire thing gave rise to people saying things they'd never dream of uttering to another person out loud in real life.

Not much has changed in the online debating world - other than the fact that I no longer know anybody who uses AOL.

Edit: grammar.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-12-09 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
22. I invented 4 or 5 of those and they are copyrighted....
You owe me 5 thousand dollars US for mentioning them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC