We're back protesting the war...

[Bigmack]

Our small group started last weekend, and added more folks today. Overwhelming support and thumbs-up from drivers... (only 2 fingers total - both days).

Problem is, about half of our peace group is choosing to sit this one out. I heard one of our founding member say "I feel that I need to support our president.". Another member said that this war is justified.

Maybe the RWnutters were right... it wasn't about war, it was about dissing Bush.

Not me... I think one immoral, wasteful, loser war is much like another.

[Teaser]

1. different war

not everyone opposes all war, you know. Pacifism has limited appeal.

Why slag those who feel differently on this war as simply having been "bush haters"?

make the case that people should think like you. If you're convincing, people will join you. If not, you'll be out there alone.

[G_j]

2. make the case?

I really doubt you've been living in a vacuum. The present US-Afghan war has been going on longer than the Vietnam war.
Decide for yourself.

[Teaser]

9. I've decided. I'm opposed to it.

But I don't have enough time or energy to get really worked up about it. My activism days are over. And I can see the other sides points, even if I think they are wrong about it.


Activists have got to get out there and convince people the war sucks. So far, that is a weakly held opinion by something that is not (at yet) a majority. Slagging people who were with you against the Iraq war because they aren't with you know seems a strategy that won't get a lot of agreement.

[Bigmack]

23. Slagging?... I'm going to do a lot more than "slag"...

those people when our people are being helo-lifted off the Embassy roof in Kabul.

When we have to drag our sorry asses out of there leaving our heavy equipment behind - like Vietnam - I intend to be ... well, very instructive with our members who thought the US could "win" a war in that shithole.

[Teaser]

25. well, good luck

I'd be with you if I wasn't so damn tired after 4:00 pm everyday. But I can only wish you well. Frankly, Afghanistan is my only major disagreement with O so far. So if you can pressure him around to my way of thinking, good on you.

[Bigmack]

29. I know I'm not going to pressure anybody...

into dropping a war. We loves our wars too much!

If you only disagree with Obama on the war... you should read Matt Taibbi's piece in Rolling Stone... then we'll talk.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/31234647/obamas_big_sellout/print

[Teaser]

35. read it. Taibbi's not one of my faves.

He bites off Hunter S. Thompson, but lacks a Nixon to fight with. Not as much fun, or as justified.

I'm not going to argue policy here except to say that I'm pretty pragmatic, and have seen more effective liberal policies instantiated or close to instantiated in the last year than I have my entire adult life. That it hasn't lived up to my social democratic dreams is, well, unsurprising to me.

[Bigmack]

8. Never said I was a pacifist...

and I'm not even nonviolent.

This war is a loser.. all that "graveyard of Empires" stuff.

Mostly we can't afford it. Next year, we'll spend about $150 Billion bucks chasing 20,000 Taliban and less than 100 Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Not a good return on our money. Worse.. the Taliban is going to win.

I don't care if people believe like me. I don't want endless war with no exit strategy, and I plan to point that out to my part-time peace group friends after we drag our sorry asses out of there.

This country is full of slow learners.

[Teaser]

12. I agree with you on almost all points

but I still think that dissing your former compatriots on the Iraq protests is poor strategy.

[Bigmack]

21. I'm really not too worried about dissing...

anybody. I'm polite. But if paying for this clusterfuck finally breaks our bank, it's gonna be a lot more far-reaching than who gets dissed. Not to even mention that people - Afghans and US - are dying while my compatriots "give Obama a chance to win this thing" (actual statement by a peace group member)

[JVS]

22. Are you kidding? We've been winning this war since 2001! We'll totally rock them every year! 4evar

:headbang:

[scentopine]

28. jesus christ - 10 yrs of war? A millions dead and ...?

some centrist democrats just love to sit back in their cozy chair and talk about splattering the blood of ordinary families with mothers and fathers and children the majority who make up the pile of dead bodies we've accumulated and then say - "not everyone opposed all war". No shit.

This isn't some fucking college drinking game or a debate club. Christ I'd love to stack the bodies of those killed at the front door of every goddam centrist realist who are just too cool to get bothered by the murderous bloodshed of our misdeeds in various parts of Asia over the years.

Spoiled babies washing playing in the blood of a million innocent and dead and mostly impoverished human beings. As if life isn't hard enough for these people. Fucking centrist realists - jesus christ what next - not all torture is bad? Oh - wait let's move on we know the answer to that. OK - what next - not all incest is bad? Or maynbe - the bill of rights is just a quaint document?

The hundred years war of America - sponsored by brain dead Americans who have lost the ability to feel any passion or remorse or responsibility about death and destruction led on by our corporate sponsors (who make billions on war) until it lands on their fucking doorstep. 99% of those murdered in these fucking wars don't give a rat's ass about America or Al Queda or anything other than whether or not they will eat this week.

Corporatist, moderate, centrist, realist - fascist. Calmly and cooly debating a multi-trillion dollar killing spree going on 10 years.

American's love violence don't we. I just want to fucking puke. A million dead and all is fair in war.

Bring back the draft and send those centrists into the belly of the rage they so calmly rationalize as a convenient political compromise to the worst war mongering cowards among us.

[Goldstein1984]

3. For some, it was just about opposing Bush...

That's become very clear to me from conversations with friends.

But a lot of liberals do seem to think this one is justified. I'm not one of them.

Pacifism does not have limited appeal. The only justification for war is defense. We're justifying war now with that all-too-useful catch-all criterion of "national interest"--oil, protecting investment, empire building, protecting friendly dictators.

The world would be a far better place if pacifism were the default setting in every human brain and could only be overridden by the need to defend oneself.

I'm going to dedicate my limited resources to doing everything I can to make sure this war goes down in history as Bush's and Obama's biggest mistakes.

[readmoreoften]

5. Most people who think this is a just war have little but propaganda for information.

Of course, the president also has little but propaganda for information. If you read non MSM reporters--those who are on the ground, not "embedded" reporters but those who've gone undercover or actually, you know, have done reporting it's pretty quick to see we're in a quagmire with no end and no rhyme or reason. We've been told by people on the ground that the "Taliban" is a Pashtun organization that's little better than the warlords or the Karzais for anyone but the kleptocrats. We've been told by reporters on the ground that all the Afghan people really want are jobs and that many of the new "Taliban" are nothing more than young boys who lost their families and homes thanks to us. We've been told that there are only 100 "Al Qaeda" in Afghanistan--better to take out with trained team than 100,000 troops.

The decision to consider this a good war is a mixture of stunning arrogance and ignorance for those with no skin in the game. And they sicken me as much as Republicans.

[whatchamacallit]

10. Word

Soooo word!

[Goldstein1984]

37. Disclosure: I have skin in the game

My son is a soldier, and he's being transferred to a unit that is going to be deploying in Spring 2010.

That said, my opposition to the wars in both Afghanistan and Iraq goes back to before he had his first thought of enlisting.

One thing I like about this, as opposed to Vietnam, is that the public recognizes that the the war and those serving in the military are are separate things.

My other son intends to enlist in the Spring.

Young people have very romantic ideas about things.

[elehhhhna]

39. funny. the only people I met who supported the Iraq war appeared to

only do so because St. George was so gung-ho.

[stray cat]

4. You are welcome to your opinion and the rest of the members have an equal right

People have different opinions and not everyone is an absolute pacifist and absolutely sure of their own righteous stance when it comes to complex issues.

[readmoreoften]

13. I'm not a pacifist and I oppose this war because it is clearly a war of aggression.

You're entitled to your opinion; but you better be prepared to face the consequences of that decision--you're responsible for the death of every person you put in harm's way. You. If I believed in a war, I'd take on that moral accountability. You better remember that when you realize what a idiotic war this is three years from now. You had your opinion, and your opinion had consequences.

Before I take the blood on my hands of supporting a war, I'll do a little research. And if you've done research on this war and still support it, then I suggest you send all your loved ones in to fight the good fight. Because my loved ones are sick of fighting and dying for your lazy and uneducated guesses on matters of international importance.

[G_j]

19. some will try to marginalize you with the pacifist label.

don't fall for it

[readmoreoften]

31. I'm not a pacifist. I believe in struggling against imperialism with force, if necessary.

No war between nations, no peace between classes--that sort of thing. But there is no war waged by the US war machine that I will support.

[G_j]

17. nice

nice insults cloaked in civility.

[Bigmack]

24. "absolute pacifist"?... "righteous stance"?

Not a pacifist, myself.... I just don't want to show the world what a sorry-assed paper tiger we really are. I'm not even non-violent.

Lemme ask you... How many US dead will it take? .... name a number.... How much money has to be flushed down that toilet... name a sum.... before you're convinced this is a loser?

[patrice]

6. Perhaps it will seem schizoid to you, but I understand what the President is doing AND I will contin

ue to protest the occupation of Afghanistan.

We also need to keep the pressure up so that withdrawal from Iraq continues until it is complete.

Call me the loyal opposition. I want to be differentiated from those who are possibly opposing Obama's decision because they oppose him personally. I understand him; I approve of the man. I do not agree with this decision, but anyone who was surprised, just wasn't listening word for word during the campaign.

[WeDidIt]

7. I have ALWAYS opposed the war in Iraq

I have ALWAYS supported the war in Afghanistan.

It didn't matter to me who was president.

[Bigmack]

18. What's not to like about the Afghan War!

8 years there, and the Taliban - all 20,000 of them - are resurgent. We have 100,000 troops and another 100,000 "contractors", control of the air, the only real supply lines in the area, the only advanced weapons systems in the area, etc.... and the Taliban are resurgent.

$450 Billion poured in so far, another $150 Billion next year, and we almost control Kabul.

20,000 Afghani civilians dead (not including those killed by the Taliban) 40% of the dead from drone strikes are civilians.

1500 coalition deaths... 950 American, with 4500 American wounded.

The Afghan army has a 50% desertion rate and a 10% retention-after-enlistment rate. The Taliban are sending people for training with the Afghan army so they can bring their weapons and uniforms when they defect.

Chances of turning a 14th century tribal culture into a 21st century modern democracy.... slim to none.

“Afghanistan taught us an invaluable lesson . . . It has been and
always will be impossible to solve political problems using force. We should
have helped the people of Afghanistan in improving their life, but it was a
gross mistake to send troops into the country.”
– Retired Red Army General Boris Gromov.

[HughMoran]

11. ...or perhaps Afghanistan does not equal Iraq

Something we used to be able to delineate between back when Bush was President and very few objected to Afghanistan.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. Being a hawk is chic and politically correct now that "our guys" are in charge of the killing. K&R

[G_j]

16. I tell ya..

it's the twilight zone

[EFerrari]

15. Good job, Bigmack.

:yourock:

[JVS]

20. K&R

[bvar22]

26. Wrong when Bush did it.

Still Wrong.

[bluestateguy]

27. And to break this to you gently, nobody gives a shit

I marched against the Iraq War three times in 2003 and 2004. So did hundreds of thousands of others. Do you think anybody gave a shit. The war still happened and was still carried out.

[Bigmack]

30. Yup... just staking my claim to what's right. nt

[Bjorn Against]

32. K&R; this is the kind of post I love to see on DU

Thank you for getting out and working to stop this war, I hope many DUers get out there and do the same thing you are doing. I know I will be out in the streets multiple times every week here in Minnesota.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

33. I never dissed Bush for Afghanistan per se

I was totally in support of going after Al-Queda/Taliban immediately following 9/11 and felt that Bush (initially) handled it well. I would also point out that, immediately following the USS Cole bombing in 2000, Clinton ordered Richard Clarke to put together a plan for smashing Al-Queda but didn't take any action on it because he didn't want to "hand" Bush/Cheny a military conflict like his predecessor did in Somalia. Bush/Cheney kept Clarke on and eventually adopted his immediately following 9/11 (although it was apparently presented to Bush/Cheney by Clarke during the first few months of Bush's (P)residency and Bush/Cheney "dithered" in approving it). Unfortunately, Bush/Cheney didn't initially see Islamic terrorism as a big priority, certainly not as important as, say, working on Reagan's failed boondoggle "Star Wars" missle shield project. It is probably safe to say that, irrespective of whether 9/11 happened or even whether Gore or Bush got elected POTUS, we would probably have had some forces in Afghanistan at some point during the last 8 years to root out Al-Queda. Gore would have probably handled it much better but that discussion is totally *academic* at this point. Of course, as we know now, Bush not only totally neglected our efforts in Afghanistan for the rest of his (P)residency to go after Saddam but he also apparently bungled our best chance at capturing/killing Bin Laden and possibly the rest of the Taliban leadership at Tora Bora by not bringing in enough forces to do the job right.
I NEVER, for even a second, supported the invasion/occupation of Iraq and did not believe ANYTHING of what Bushco was telling us about Saddam being an imminent threat to our country and knew that we were being played. I HAD hoped that, of all of the members of the (mis-)administration, Colin Powell would eventually bring Bush/Cheney to their senses thus sparing us a totally unnecessary and unjustified conflict but he ultimately caved and chose to support them in their machinations.
If President Obama were to announce that he intends to launch an unprovoked military strike against Iran or another country, I would NOT simply support/endorse it any more than I did when Bush did the same thing with Iraq. Fortunately, however, I don't believe that he would actually ever do such an asinine thing but if and when he does, I'll be right out there protesting him as well.

[stevenleser]

34. It worries me when I see Democrats as unable to do nuance as Republicans

I protested the Iraq war consistently starting from 3 months before. That war will be wrong forever in my opinion. I supported Afghanistan from the very beginning. I thought that was a justified action in the beginning. I have question marks now, but to equate the two the way you have and claim if one person protested one then they protested the other, but then turned around based on administration is extremely poor logic.

If you have to do this to justify your position, that should be a big clue that there are problems with what you are saying.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. Our group has never stopped

[hippywife]

38. Good for you!

I've been considering the same since Obama gave his acceptance speech for a prize he surely doesn't deserve and made very clear. He had his chance. Now all bets are off.