Study: Bad guys really do get the most girls

[The Straight Story]

Bad guys really do get the most girls

NICE guys knew it, now two studies have confirmed it: bad boys get the most girls. The finding may help explain why a nasty suite of antisocial personality traits known as the "dark triad" persists in the human population, despite their potentially grave cultural costs.

The traits are the self-obsession of narcissism; the impulsive, thrill-seeking and callous behaviour of psychopaths; and the deceitful and exploitative nature of Machiavellianism. At their extreme, these traits would be highly detrimental for life in traditional human societies. People with these personalities risk being shunned by others and shut out of relationships, leaving them without a mate, hungry and vulnerable to predators.

But being just slightly evil could have an upside: a prolific sex life, says Peter Jonason at New Mexico State University in Las Cruces. "We have some evidence that the three traits are really the same thing and may represent a successful evolutionary strategy."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19826614.100-bad-guys-really-do-get-the-most-girls.html

I am bad, like seriously bad. I once gave my son (when he was 20) a beer. A crime like that here in Ohio can get you 6 months hard time and fines.

I have smoked in a bar, after it was banned (and I was around some other bad mo'fo's like the bar owner and waitresses who were doing the same). And when the cops came in (some other bad dude had stolen a purse) I didn't flinch. The cops knew how bad we were and never even mentioned the smoking. Cause we were so bad we scared them.

Just earlier today I went over the speed limit. Twice. And just to rub it in, when I got home I opened a beer - IN MY CAR - and left it sitting there, another hard core crime here. It is still sitting there. I'll drink it later after it has absorbed all the badness of being illegal. Tastes better that way.

Also went through the drive through, it is inside a building (you buy beer/smokes/milk/etc there) and I was smoking - inside a building, at a place of employment, smoking, spewing fumes from my car. Those f**kers dropped dead within seconds...ok, they didn't, but they were smoking too (at work??? Yep).

I run with some bad ass dudes and dudettes here in the hood.

Now I have to run, there is a line of women at my door I have to entertain.

I am such a scoundrel :rofl:

[bbinacan]

1. That's good.

:smoke:

[HowHasItComeToThis]

13. AND ME, I HAD A DOUBLE LIFE IN HIGH SCHOOL

THE TOUGH GUYS AND THE INTELLECTUALS

BILL MOYERS http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-ca-bill-moyers13-2009dec13,0,6420467,print.story IS A GOOD READ :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. My dear Straight Story!

I'll just bet you do, you rascal, you!

You ARE a very bad boy, and it makes you attractive!

:rofl:

:spank:

[WCGreen]

3. Well, I have to say something about the bad guys...

I think it is more about being assertive without going over board...


Mrs WCGreen, my partner for the last 22 years, gave me that I just want to be friends speech one night when we first started going out. I quickly retorted "I have enough friends thank you" and got up to walk away. She sat there and then said wait...

The rest is history...

I think what it is is most "nice" guys I know are just shy or not sure of themselves.

My advice to the nice guys, get out there and don't be so afraid of rejection. Stand up for yourself because if you can't do that, how do you expect a woman to believe in her gut that you are going to stand up for her when it counts.

I know social mores have changed, but there still is, deep inside of us all, part of us that believes we are naked and vulnerable out there on the Serengeti with nothing but our wits and at least a smidgen of guile to save us.

[The Straight Story]

5. now now, tell the rest of the story:

She said 'wait', and you turned around, and she said "Do you have an email address for The Straight Story?" :)

[WCGreen]

7. Nah, she said you have toilet paper on your shoe....

[Lisa0825]

18. I have treid to explain this concept, but I think that the guys would rather

just blame it on women. You can be nice and still be confident, and still be assertive, and still be funny, and still have a little wild side. But yes, I imagine it IS hard to date when one is shy, lacks confidence, or whatever.

I like nice people. I very much prefer to be around nice people. But I am not attracted to shy guys, or clingy, needy guys, or guys that are too serious and don't have a fun side. Give me nice, but give me someone with a spine and a sense of adventure and humor too, please! Or at least one of those traits!

But like with many things in life, there must always be a way to make it the woman who is at fault, so lets just blame her for picking "bad boys."

:eyes:

[Mojorabbit]

20. Exactly!

You summed it up perfectly.

[Lorien]

32. Well said. I've found that insecure "nice" guys are generally more prone

to lash out at others because of their insecurity, either by being passive aggressive or even emotionally and/ or physically abusive. Someone who is comfortable in their own skin and accepts themselves as is is more likely to accept others as they are as well.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

43. YES!

As they say, "No one will respect you if you don't respect yourself."

[Nikki Stone1]

60. How does that explain men who are attracted to women who reject them?

I have a friend, god help him, who keeps running after women who are really mean. The word bitch comes to mind, and I don't usually trash my own, but these women are really awful. Meanwhile there are all these nice--and good-looking!--girls who really like him, and he can't even see them. I often want to smash him over the head with a tire iron for being so dense. He keeps telling me he just wants a nice pretty girl who wants kids. But every woman he is attracted to is nasty as hell.

Paging Dr. Freud!

[seabeyond]

64. some have such low self esteem they expect this treatment as

what love looks like. not having self respect they dont know what respect is about. you have people of both genders that walk life in that. there are the doormats. and generally these people are no more respectful to the person as the person is to them.

let them couple. leaves the rest free to have the good stuff.

[ddeclue]

112. Sorry to disagree but the reality is that danger=excitement

It's been my experience that women want excitement and danger and that they want a "social rehab project" guy that they can remake and reform. Of course it never works - nice guys like me get ignored almost all the time in favor of some unemployed long haired pony tail wearing motorcycle driving drug selling dude.

[Kalyke]

142. We don't settle down with that type, though.`

Most GIRLS like bad BOYS, but most WOMEN like nice MEN who have a little bit of assertiveness and can be, at time, "wild," but who don't stray, hit us or force us into doing things we don't want to do.

In other words, women grow up and want a grown-up.

[Mopar151]

189. That mirrors my experience

I was terrible with girls, much better with women. I have a hardcore car hobby (competitive time trials, aka hillclimb or time attack) that girls thought was icky - especially the helping out with setup and swapping work with your friends part, and no flash car to see and be seen in. Women are much better - my sweetie loves to go along when she can, took to timing like a duck to water, and tells me to kick ass (but don't crash!). She's fine with me being a careful adrenaline junkie.

But I hear what an earlier poster said about wimpy guys. Men who act like girls - prissy, passive-agressive - deserve no respect. And the fearful, overcompensating, mean drunks, hitters, gun fetishists users - the would-be partners of the co-dependent and nasty little momma's boys - anybody who thinks that means brave, tough, or worth a shit needs help.

[Taverner]

4. Well yeah, if you lie, decieve and have no qualms about it, you will be more sucessful in many ways

But in doing so you violate the social contract and soon won't be trusted

--------------

Keep in mind I'm only posting on the title of the thread, and I just read the full OP now

:rofl:

[asdjrocky]

6. The trick is to be bad, but have good deep inside.

Always worked for me.

[nomorenomore08]

27. Now see, I'm the other way around. I guess that's the problem.

:P

[Blue_In_AK]

8. They may be good in the sack,

but they don't make good marriage partners (says Blue_in_AK, speaking from experience).

[Lorien]

28. Very true. They generally are only good for one thing, and it's the only

thing they're after. On the flip side, I've learned that many self proclaimed "nice guys" are anything but. "It's the quiet ones you have to worry about" as the saying goes; sometimes "nice" is just a well practiced act. The mask comes off when they let their guard down, and it ain't at all pretty. The genuine guys; the ones without the insecurity or the narcissism, are the ones worth finding.

[seabeyond]

34. why i switched from nice guy to good men. there in lies the difference. nt

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

113. the "nice guy" act is slick as hell

you can't always trust someone just because they act mannerly and polite.
Beware the feigned humility and "honesty".

Listen for what isn't being said.

[raccoon]

122. IME some nice guys are real passive-aggressive. nt

[JonLP24]

131. I hate that saying "It's the quiet ones you have to worry about"

Usually when that is said it implies I'm some kind of bad person inside when really I'm just quiet.

Truth is I don't say very much around people I don't know well because I really don't know what to talk about. When I get to know someone I learn of stuff they like or what they are in to so it makes it easier to talk to them. However being the person that I am, afraid to speak up I heard this saying a lot about me and by saying that it would make it even harder for me to say anything.

However I consider myself nicer than most people, I'm honest, fair, generous, etc.

[seabeyond]

132. ya. quiet people were tough for me to understand cause i am anything but quiet

my son is quiet around those he doesnt know well. surprises me. hubby probably is too. i do all the talking so doesnt seem so much

it is a silly and hurtful saying.

[seabeyond]

37. some are. some selfish pricks which ='s not so good. but the good men, tend to good in bed too.

from what i have found

[walldude]

39. My wife says it's because we care...

"Sex is kind of like a Chinese Dinner. It's not over till both people get their cookie"

[seabeyond]

40. yes. though it is an obvious, today the trend seems to be to pretend otherwise.

seems to be a popular push going on that is not complimentary to either gender.

[janx]

90. Yep.

Backslide.

[HuckleB]

95. Probably not.

I believe there are studies that show that couples with good relationships also have the best sex.

[cali]

9. great OP.

Anything that makes me laugh out loud gets a big rec from me.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

10. Let me also add this:

When a woman falls for a bad guy, part of the reason she does so is because there's a hint of something exciting, something dangerous in being with him.

That sense of danger means life won't be boring the way it might be with someone else...

Just sayin...

;)

[Blue_In_AK]

12. Well, yeah, there's that,

but after 20 years of excitement and danger, it gets pretty old. At this point in my life, I'm pretty happy not to be sitting by the phone waiting for the "please come bail me out of jail, it'll never happen again" calls.

[KittyWampus]

62. I think a great many women want to reform the bad guys. But then, men are attracted to "bad" girls

too.

IMO, it works both ways equally.

[Deja Q]

11. Gee, people call me a narcissist, thrill seeking, impulsive pig...

Wait, I don't.

I could write for soap operas...

I can't. Those are so far below basal intellectual potential...

[Bucky]

16. only a narcissist, thrill seeking, impulsive pig would say that

Actually I think you really could write for soap operas... however you would end up permanently altering the genre. Fewer sexually charged corporate power-play story lines means more alien visitation turned cheese-whiz abduction story lines. I shan't elaborate, but I know you have it in you.

[1]

14. yes we do. its not fair, but it is what it is...

:hi:

[Bucky]

15. If you're going for sheer quantity in the nookie race, yes, it helps if you're a jerk.

"Nice guys" tend to settle down, thus lowering their total bag count. Part of being a bad boy is not being loyal to one girl. I wonder if included in that study how many of the women they were racking up were also not terribly considerate people.

[elocs]

17. I gave you Rec #5. Thanks for validating what I have always known.

As Will said, "This above all, to thine own self be true". Or as Popeye said, "I yam what I yam and that's all that I yam".

After 40 years of being the nice guy and being the object of the "let's just be friends" speech I retired from women about three years ago. If I were a boxer and got the shit kicked out of me in every fight, but yet continued to box people would say I was a moron. Well I've reached the point in my life where I am tired of being a moron and I am now enjoying a very simple life sans females. I can admire and appreciate them without having to possess them and it is very liberating. I can just be a nice guy without feeling the need to alter who I am, or who I yam.

Yeah, we always knew but some of us took a long time to believe.

[flvegan]

19. I dunno.

My good qualities have worked better for me than my "bad" ones.

[Lorien]

21. You'll have to provide a link for that Ohio law

I grew up in Ohio and drank beer with my dad and his girlfriend when my step sister and I were both eleven years old-at bars and jazz clubs. we were served wine every Sunday at brunch. No one ever made an issue of it. A kid couldn't BUY beer, but a parent could buy it for them.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mainer]

23. Stupid girls go for those guys. That leaves more nice guys for us.

This article makes me sad. It means that bad-boy genes are getting perpetuated.

It's the females who enable them. How can we raise daughters to avoid these creeps?

[debbierlus]

26. Teach your daughter self love and purpose - bad guy relationships are co-dependent

Lack of self identity...

Establish a sense of self through working on another person. A way to feel needed.

Teach girls self love and empowerment.

[PassingFair]

231. I teach my girls this: Men are like sheep.....

and it's up to YOU whether you are the Shepherdess
or the grazing material...





...credit goes to Tracey Ullman.

[seabeyond]

232. ooooosh, and as a female i say baaaaad. isnt that just promoting this shit. and teach sons

not to allow this shit. actually i dont have to teach sons this shit. i refuse that attitude, mentality, behavior with husband and he appreciates. makes for a good healthy relationship. i also respect my sons empowerment and dont try to manipulate in such a manner. so they wouldnt buy into this shit anyway.

yuk

as bad as the guy bullshit of the "little lady" that cant do

[PassingFair]

236. If all mothers were like you, perhaps....

women wouldn't need to be so on their guard.

But most aren't and there IS a double standard, so....

I stand by teaching my girls to make sound decisions,
to not be "swept off their feet", but to keep their
hands firmly on the broom handle.

They are responsible for their own actions and should
not enter into any relationship blindly.

[DireStrike]

44. You can't, IMO

Emotion, and especially attraction, are not rational. Perhaps a massive, worldwide social engineering project over several centuries might work. Other than that I dunno.

[seabeyond]

24. fine. that will leave those good men to the women that want them and a life that

is balanced, healthy, and conducive to raising a family.

new science works really hard at projecting certain behavior, conditioning people to behave in the least of who we are. if nothing else, they are consistent with their agenda.

[redqueen]

146. +1

[seabeyond]

147. .

:hug:

[debbierlus]

25. Always wanted a good guy, ended up with a reformed bad guy

Go for the good guys ladies....

The bad guys are exhausting.

And, a tip for the good guys. Don't be boring.

[Gman2]

29. I dont like the EUGENICS implication to this. If these traits can be inhereted, so can

liberal, or criminal, or murderer, or terrorist, says some winger some day.

[seabeyond]

33. it only works when making men cavemen and women accommodating to that theory

but you are right on.

[Canuckistanian]

30. My Mama told me about bad boys like you

That's why she's stayed in that rocker in the attic for the last 30 years.

Oops, gotta go, she's calling me again.

[burning rain]

31. There's considerable pressure on girls to say they like "nice guys."

It's banged into their heads by parents and peers that that's what's expected of them, so as to be thought of as "nice girls," and not "sluts," themselves. So sure, you do find a lot of girls who put up a front of wanting a "nice guy," maybe actually believing it from hearing that it's the right thing for so long, but deep down wanting that bad boy.

Fortunately, for "nice guys" who lose, as "nice guys" tend to do, there's hope. With some effort you can learn to be a "bad guy."

[seabeyond]

35. deleted. nt

[Echo In Light]

157. Same operative drive behind the 'in love' phenomenon that green-lights acting on sexual impulses

Socially imposed tricks o' the mind

[Liquorice]

36. That's such a silly study. Are there bad women too? If so, I bet if you surveyed them, you would

find that they have more sexual partners too.

[TwilightGardener]

38. As a woman, I can attest that women are sometimes stupid.

Not me, of course--I married a nice guy. Never thought assholes and psychopaths were sexy.

[renate]

202. ditto that

Women/girls who like bad boys are wired WAY differently from me. I don't understand that kind of thinking at all. I'm not saying it's wrong or anything: to each her own. It seems sad to me, though. People deserve to be with partners who are nice to them.

[dustbunnie]

41. Dark Triad is such an interesting, mysterious way to describe males who act like Vinnie Barbarino.

:)

[AnneD]

42. BORN TO BE MILD......

Yeah-I promised my 4th grade daughter if she got all A's, we'd watch South Park together. We bonded playing pool. Yeah, we are bad, so bad she rides shot gun with me when we hit the road. And being from Texas, riding shotgun is a real job!

We're bad to the bone.

Edited to add...bad boy friends are a nice memory of my past. I outgrew it . I didn't marry a bad boy or a Prince Charming....I married Prince Adequate and lived happily ever after. Yeah...I was the one with the wild past, not my hubby.

[wuushew]

45. sad...the human genome decends further into the cesspool

n/t

[Kievan Rus]

46. I can never understand why twenty-something females...

go for creeps with no jobs, a lengthy rap sheet, numerous tattoos and will regularly cheat on them and hit them.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. I never did--not ever

But I sure saw a lot of twenty-something guys go for superficially beautiful girls who stomped all over their hearts.

[dustbunnie]

48. For the same reason some men go for rapacious, cashing-in-on-sex,

cheap looking, fake-boobed, often troubled and drug-addicted loser women who will regularly cheat on them and sometimes even have them killed for the insurance money.

[Lisa0825]

54. You knew my ex-rommate? What a small world!

I am not joking. All except the drugs.

[dustbunnie]

61. Lol, I've met a couple myself.

None of them have put out a hit on anyone far as I know, but American Justice has often featured the really extreme examples. If only all the bad boys and girls would find each other, it'd be a perfect world for the rest of us. :)

[Lisa0825]

107. I actually think my ex-roomate had her husband killed.

It was an unsolved murder, and she then "got back together" with an old bf that she'd been keeping in touch with for years. That is my creepiest memory of people I knew from my college years.

[dustbunnie]

119. Holy Jesus! I was kidding, but of course you never know about people.

Good thing you got away from her!

[seabeyond]

57. i never have. nor have any of my friends but one. and the drama and trauma of her life... nt

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

109. A "bad boy" doesn't even have to have tattoos, a rap sheet...etc...

There are women who like totally preppy assholes who have good jobs, but are also male chauvinists, treat people beneath them like shit, etc.

I admit I'm bitter because a woman I cared about very much left me and her next two relationships were with guys she supposedly totally hated for their crude behavior, especially towards women. They weren't biker types, just a couple of dorks who thought they doing standup routines from the "Man Show". I know deep down she thought she could "change" them in some way. I guess I didn't make her cry enough or comment on her "fantastic hooters" enough to keep her interested. Such is life.

[Mopar151]

191. He would be so nice, if he would change for me... n/t

[postulater]

49. I will never go back to Ohio.

[The Straight Story]

50. I said that once, while living in Ridgecrest CA

Man was I wrong :)

[postulater]

58. Well, maybe just for the Rock and Roll HOF in Cleveland.

That is pretty nice.

Bo Diddly's home made guitar.

[Nikki Stone1]

51. I think it's evolutionary: a bad guy is protection against harm to the offspring by other bad guys

And in a world without a steady system of laws, it benefits a woman to be attracted to a guy who can scare the others away from her offspring, whom they might hurt or kill. It also benefits a male if he can beat up others, so that he can insure that it will be his genes that will survive. A nice guy could be trampled under those conditions and his offspring killed; hence the passing down of the violence/attracted to violence gene. Of course, it means your dumb brutish fucks will survive and your smart nerds that can actually advance human knowledge and life could be killed. Although, I think the smart nerdy people survived by outsmarting the brutish on occasion.

Nature is all about protecting the young of the species and ensuring its continuation. Nature doesn't give a flying fuck about individuals and how they feel.

[The Straight Story]

53. How do you think all of that plays into the RW/wars/9/11 - etc? (nt)

[Nikki Stone1]

59. That would be a long scholarly paper.

But, I do believe that humans have a lot of impulses that are old. I also think that the meaner guys tended to do better at killing the animals and your young would not do without food.

And if you substitute "natural resources" for food, you can see where I'm headed. But remember, humans also developed religion and there are also traits of kindness, altruism and abstract justice that reside in all of us too, resulting from training. But remember, the fact that we can train humans in this way is also an evolutionary inheritance.

[Berry Cool]

106. We are more than just our evolutionary heritage.

I don't fall for all that evo psych shit. I think people just quote it to give men an excuse to act like pigs.

[sendero]

52. Duh..

... like anyone needed a study.

[shadowknows69]

55. Don't get me started.

[Blue_Tires]

56. i didn't know that was ever in dispute...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

63. OK, I just read the article

"Bad boys" have more short-term sexual encounters--because they're good at FAKING what women want in addition to the usual "good human being" qualities of kindness, loyalty, and dependability: a willingness to step outside one's comfort zone, a focused sense of humor, and expressive, wicked eyes.

None of these qualities are in conflict with being a good human being, but the guys who refer to themselves as wallflower "nice guys" seem to think so.

Sorry, guys, but self-styled nice guys are usually whiny and self-pitying and socially clueless.

They need a social coach (No, NOT "Mystery." Any woman with an IQ over 100 would laugh that jerk out of the club.)

They tend to base their approaches on what they see in the movies or on TV.

They tend to be boring (narrowly focused on work and sports) and devoted to conventional wisdom (they believe everything they see on TV and are dutifully interested in everything the media tell them to be interested in).

They tend to go for women who are guaranteed not to like them and ignore the ones who would.

I have rejected a "nice guy" who had no sense of humor whatsoever, a "nice guy" who radiated self-pity, a "nice guy" who had the manners of a nine-year-old and a voice with two settings (loud and crude and louder and cruder), a "nice guy" who could talk about nothing but accounting and football, a "nice guy" who insisted that I go sailing with him but wouldn't go to concerts with me, a "nice guy" with flat affect, a "nice guy" who overdid the attention (Don't bring a dozen roses on the first date), a "nice guy" who thought he was too busy to bathe or wash his clothes, and a "nice guy" who refused to offer an opinion or make a decision. (He reminded me of that Eddie Murphy movie in which the princess says, "I like whatever music you like. I like to do whatever you like to do.")

[seabeyond]

65. so these "bad" boys PRETEND to be nice guys to get a fuck? nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

75. No, I'm talking about the men who THINK they're poor. neglected "nice guys"

but actually have really serious problems that would send any sensible woman running in the opposite direction.

The "bad boys" are pretty obvious to women who've lived for a while or who have a sense of self-esteem.

[seabeyond]

78. my husband and i were talking about this yesterday. doormats is what we called the "nice" guy

that is being refered to. and both he and i were trying to figure this person out. a friend... and talking his story. both he and i said we have known people like that in the past, and immediately stopped dating them. neither of us had a desire to have a doormat. pleaser. needy.

so the bad boy must be the one that is confident. esteem. respect self and allows nothing less.

so be it

fine...

i hear what you are saying. but these little "studies" from new science is certainly a new science being promoted adn fed to the culture as a whole with a purposeful agenda.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

83. I think a lot of young men are going to interpret that study as saying that

they should be macho jerks who love 'em and leave 'em.

The difference between masculine and macho is a subtle one, but important. I LOVE masculine. I HATE macho.

[seabeyond]

84. I LOVE masculine. I HATE macho. this is where you are right on. and this is what is truly sad

about this continual push to make our guys jerks and condition our girls this is what they want.

it is these studies that continually are feeding both genders today an illusion of what a man is and what women want in a man.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

185. "Nice guys/doormats" as you call them lose their minds around women they like

I could be very cool and calm around women I had nothing but a platonic interest in (and yes, many of them were "hawt" and no I had no interest in them other than as friends) and would always get the compliment "You are going to make a great boyfriend/make some woman very happy someday."

Then I'd get around that girl who I was starting to fall for, and there is all that pressure to "make a move". Do something.....because there is always some better looking guy with nicer clothes who's going to get her before you do.....and it would all go downhill as I stammered to ask her out to dinner (think Hugh Grant without the charm or an English accent) and suddenly she would realize what an idiot I was and all the time I spent building up a certain rapport could be heard going right down the drain as I revealed myself to be a totally uncool geek who didn't have the Brad Pitt looks to offset how weak I sound. You scoff at the idea of "the game" or lack of it, but it is what it is and I know all about it.

[seabeyond]

186. not scoffed, sneered more at the game.... it isn't fun and hard for most

but i dont think it is the doormat hubby and i were talking. are you needy or a pleaser. doesn't sound like it from your post. just sounds like when in like with a gal, it is hard. i think it is hard for most and ya.... i am not in that anymore and dont want to be. though i imagine now i am so much older, would be easier. so many things dont matter to me now, that mattered when i was young

i am going thru this now with my oldest son. he is insightful, aware, intellectual, yet when around a girl he likes, oh boy. so hard for him

but he is also getting the message that girls dont like nice boys and i dont want him conditioned with this shit. i always liked the nice guys and many of my friends did too.

one of the things i learned on this board from the male perspective is that a lot of the nice guys, that are normal, nice guys that just have a hard time around girls they like dont get them cause they keep mouth shut. dont take the risk. or get clumsy mouths. lots of empathy. as i said, most all are like that young and with a person they like.

my son is very confident, excellent self esteem and nice. a good person. i dont see he will have any more issue than a lot of people, like you, that have to just do it... and past the newness phase and then enjoy. so i share from peoples experience here on the board about putting self out there, taking the risk adn getting it done.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

237. "Door mat" doesn't mean shy. Shy is actually kind of charming if it isn't tinged with self-pity

By "door mat" I mean the guy who tries too hard to please, the one who practices "aggressive kindness" when there really is no relationship yet.

Have you ever felt that someone is trying to bribe you to like them?

Have you ever felt that someone had no self-respect and was desperate to be liked?

Have you ever had someone come on too strong and do too much? (One of my male friends had a young landlady in his student days. She had a crush on him, although he wasn't interested. He went home for Christmas and came back to find that she had cleaned and rearranged the whole apartment from top to bottom. He didn't like her messing around with his possessions and went to tell her so. She burst into tears: "But I spent Christmas Day scrubbing down your kitchen!")

Have you ever met anyone who is afraid to express a preference?

That's what I'm talking about.

[janx]

93. That's another subject altogether, and I'm glad you mentioned it.

A couple of very insightful women around my own age mentioned this to me last summer in connection with a budding friendship I had that went to the bizarre fairly fast! ;-)

[paulsby]

66. no doubt whatsoever that this is true

i see it ALL the time. i come into contact with a lot of couples and i see this over and over. nice guys are viewed as wimpy and boring.

the alan alda sensitive guy approach doesn't work very well. the slightly roguish bad body approach DOES.

i see a lot of guys cultivate a bad boy image SOLELY for this reason.

i worked undercover for a long time, and i also saw that cultivating a certain image did wonders. it's about as universal as can be.

[seabeyond]

71. your job takes you into the gutter of the very worst in people and that is what you

hold up for the rest of us? as a reality? and the parents you see, couples, the ones living a comfortable and good life, are they all bad boys and woman the pathetic soles chasing them?

because i do not see your world, in my world

[paulsby]

73. i see a lot of the best of people

sorry, but the hawtest girls i routinely see, are coupling up with guys who have a bit of bad boy in them.

i;m not talking about penguin raping, domestic violence committing scumbags.

i'm talking about , to paraphrase tim mccgraw, the type that "might be a real bad boy, but he's a real good man"

[seabeyond]

76. ah geez... so predicably "the game". nt

[paulsby]

77. it's called the real world

try it out. u might like it

[seabeyond]

134. so, bad boys arent really bad. normal guy pissed cause cant get the "hawt chick"?

ahhhhh. not fair

[dustbunnie]

151. Can you explain that a little better? It's hard to understand as written.

If it's what I think, that's the human condition and no reason to call out men specifically. There are plenty of women who are hideous, inside and out, and yet blame men because they are alone.

[seabeyond]

158. when we have a post of women going out with men who are abusive and disrespectful saying

why cant i find any nice guys. then i will address the issue

the poster specifically said bad guys arent bad, .... that would be scumbags.

and the "hawt" chicks go to these not so bad, bad guys. then what is the bitch. the 10's want the 10's. not a ten you are out of their league. it isnt cause a person is nice, it is because they are not a ten.

[dustbunnie]

165. Paulsby was replying to me and what he thought constituted my definition of bad boy.

And I do happen to think a synonym for bad boy is scumbag. So you're going after the wrong person.

I don't believe guys who sleep around with a bunch of women are necessarily bad boys or sociopaths. I don't think guys who aim to bed good-looking women are necessarily bad boys either. That seemed to be his description and I was just adding my two cents.

[seabeyond]

168. well fine. thank you. i wasnt addressing you, was i? will have to go check

i was addressing paulsby. he says bad boys arent scumbag. but playing pick up games. sleeping around. that is not what warrants bad boy in my book either. and when i was posting to paulsby i was not going off his definition of bad boy, but what most consider bad boy. a boy that is bad.

not the cutsey interpretation we use with bad boy

a couple days ago hubby did something. i said, .... you are such a bad boy. he says, dirty girl. and i giggled. was just a cute. (fraser had that in a scene years ago and we have since fallin back on it at times). that is how it seems paulsby is interpreting bad boy. he is who i was addressing.

[dustbunnie]

79. You seem to be talking about guys who have game.

Nothing wrong with that. Even wanna be bad boys like the characters John Travolta made famous (Vinnie, Tony, Danny, Vincent Vega) are "okay."

Real bad boys are a whole other breed. :D

[paulsby]

97. essentially yes

i'm talking about "guys guys".

i think your definition of a "real bad boy" is probably what i'd call a "scumbag"

but not sure.

[dustbunnie]

120. Yes, it is basically. Real bad boys cause problems and even destroy people.

(Same with bad girls.) And because they're narcissistic and sociopathic, at least to some degree, they don't change throughout life.

A guy with really good game who sleeps around isn't necessarily a true bad boy. And guys like those you're describing can and do change once it's out of their systems or they've aged a little.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

116. How do you know that the "hawt girls" aren't psycho-shrews on wheels?

A bit of the "bad boy" in the sense of hinting at possibilities of roguishness is one thing.

Actually DOING anything bad is extremely unattractive.

[paulsby]

207. bad is a bit vague

i am referring to the type of guy that is somewhat of a rebel, isn't afraid of a fistfight, lifts some weights (note that study after study show that shoulder/waist ratio is a key visual cue for women, just as waist/hip is for men), etc.

we have a joke in law enforcement about how square FBI agents are, for example. the whole "mormon accountants from Utah" thang. this is the opposite of the type i am referring to.

i'm talking a guy who is a little streetwise, is assertive, pushes the envelope on occasion, etc.

for example, some of the most staggeringly attractive women i have ever seen were at a MMA match.

in college, the surf team parties were a good example. the whole surfer image was very successful

[CRF450]

67. Its typical that they bring "excitement" or "adventure", which young and dumb girls cant resist. n/t

[varelse]

68. Modern technology will render that strategy obsolete soon

people with dark triad traits may be more successful with a quantity-style or shotgun approach to reproduction, even if they don't stick around for parenting. "The strategy seems to have worked. We still have these traits," Jonason says.

Birth control and DNA tests are going to put an end to the success of this "reproductive strategy", IMO.

Good riddance.

[JonQ]

69. Explains why there are so many jerks

as a population we are selecting for them.

[sendero]

70. For those who wish to "blame" women...

... for this tendency, get a clue. Women are merely following their biological urges. The species wants bad guys. Figure it out, it's not that complicated.

[seabeyond]

80. for you men that dont have women that want to blame it on anything but yourself

get a clue. this is bunk being fed to all of us adn some are just more prone to suck it up for ego sake.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seabeyond]

82. sure it is. all those millions of good men getting married, just an illusion. nt

[sendero]

85. Are you really clueless..

.. or do you just act that way on the internet?

Women hang with "bad boys" until they are ready to settle down and then they "settle" for a nice guy.

Again, this has been studied and studied, published and published. If you are ignorant of the facts that's because you didn't care to know them.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

117. It's been studied and studied by whom?

Many of us NEVER liked the bad boys.

Others turn to the nice guys (and I mean the REAL nice guys, not the ones who are nice only when they're trying to get into your pants but are otherwise passive-aggressive and whiny) after they wise up.

Nice and interesting are not mutually exclusive, and both are necessary for most women.

If you're not getting any, sendero, I'll make the suggestion that Auntie Lydia always makes: Find a platonic female friend to evaluate you. You have to be ready to hear what you don't want to hear, but it's valuable.

I'm speaking as one who received such an evalution from a platonic male friend and found it extremely helpful.

[Mopar151]

251. Actually, in my case

A couple-three-four ladies of my acquaintance clued me in over a period of time. But, a couple of them are of the crazy brave persuasion themselves (hillclimb drivers/ProRally navigators). They appreciate the difference between brave and macho - and told me, in a nice way, that Men should wear mens' underwear, not "tighty whiteys" - and that you can only screw about an hour a day, and a good lady might like someone she can talk to the rest of the time.
I met my sweetie, and we're fine - but a lot of what they told me got reinforced when I worked the swing shift with the "hawt" bartender and a couple lesbian soldiers (1 Iraq vet, 1 NG). Phony tough did not sell with those ladies at all! (2nd break was like a radio call in show - Ms. Hawt used to tell the other guy on the shift "take notes, Joel, this is the important part!")

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lukasahero]

99. Trust me - this one thinks he's the ultimate "nice guy"

And then they wonder why women don't want them...

Yawn.

[seabeyond]

101. between just seeing a picture of the dude that did the study

and your post....

i am laugggghhhhing, lol.

i love it when the humor comes out in these threads. all the bad boy wanna be's

[JonQ]

187. Then logically you can't blame the men either

as they are just following their biological urges. And apparently this is a successful strategy for mating.

[LostInAnomie]

72. My response: Then these women shouldn't complain when they get treated like shit.

If you insist on dating self absorbed assholes, don't complain when they act like a self absorbed asshole towards you. You knew what you were buying.

[Edweird]

74. Yes, I know this.

I've been a maniac non-conformist psycho my whole life. I am who and what I am. I've tried to tone it down and reign it and 'fit in', but it only comes off as creepy and fake. And no, they haven't all been 'short term'. I've had plenty of long term relationships. Also, women that like bad boys aren't automatically 'dumb'. Some of the women I've dated (including several teachers) have been quite successful and intelligent. They just like what they like. Of course, it takes more than being anti-social. A little charm goes a long way.

[New Dawn]

87. "Jonason and his colleagues subjected 200 college students to personality tests"

I stopped reading after that sentence. A small sample size of only college students (who tend to fall in a certain age group: 18-24).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

118. And college students are notoriously dumb about relationships

I'm speaking as a former professor who observed some incredibly BAD pairings among her students (and only a few good ones),

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

192. Oh, exactly.....

....the vast majority of relationships in college are based on totally superficial things, and without a parental unit around to supervise, it's worse than anything in high school.

People in general are stupid about relationships until they are 30.

[devilgrrl]

88. What kinds of girls do they get?

eom

[janx]

89. "We have some evidence that the three traits are really the same thing and may represent a

successful evolutionary strategy."

This sociobiology/social Darwinism crap has been around for decades. :rofl:

There was a book, The Red Queen, around about ten years ago. Its premise: Most male animals are not monogomous, and humans males are animals, ergo...

[seabeyond]

91. that just doesnt explain why an equal number of women are fuckin around. men gotta

women... bitch.

[janx]

96. EXACTLY...

:rofl:

[iris27]

92. And bad girls get the most guys. So? n/t

[Vattel]

94. I don't know how many times I've got laid

because I used the Peewee Herman "I'm a loner, a rebel" speech: "I've done things you wouldn't understand, things you couldn't understand, things you shouldn't understand." That "shouldn't understand" always gets them.

[smirkymonkey]

182. And Pee Wee got....

DOTTIE!!

[wuushew]

98. Professor Peter Jonason?

published articles

http://web.nmsu.edu/~pjonason/

[seabeyond]

100. OM fuckin G. what is he, 13. lol lol. ohhhhhh

this has me bustin up. bad boy that he is.

just lmao...... lol

[janx]

102. Look at his publications! n/t

[seabeyond]

104. that is embarrassing, for him. new science, evolutionary MAN.... let a kid tell you how. nt

[wuushew]

103. I guess in my mind I was expecting a tweed jacket

n/t

[smirkymonkey]

184. +100

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

105. I find this intriguing having watched a close friend struggle with relationships

A woman I have been friends with since high school has always been a hopeless failure at relationships, primarily because it has never occurred to her she might be able to meet men somewhere other than the gym or pretentious nightclubs.

She has a very clear image of what she wants out of life, but her decisions where relationships are concerned absolutely guarantee she will never get it as she runs through a list made up predominantly of narcissistic assholes and obvious closet-cases. She had a child with an englishman she knew to be gay - needless to say that didn't end in a romantic comedy with a zany love triangle.

Her most recent disastrous relationship ended over the summer after her latest psycho imagined she was cheating on him based on a comment on a picture on FACEBOOK. Now she is back on the prowl and still chasing assholes.

She is smart, educated and successful - but when it comes to men she lets her clit drive and wanders blindly into disastrous relationships.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

108. "She had a child with an englishman she knew to be gay"

LOL.....that must be a whole other study.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

110. oh yeah, that was a doozy, the guy was a bodybuilder and stuntman

when she just thought the guy was bisexual she thought it was cool, when he obtained a british passport for the baby without telling her - things went downhill rapidly.

[NoodleyAppendage]

115. Or, maybe she's sabotaging herself because of a fear of true intimacy.

Setting yourself up for failure means never having to worry about living up to a standard.

J

[KittyWampus]

128. very insightful comment.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

212. that could be,

I have wondered if it might be more of the temptation of instant gratification and a reluctance to invest time. I have no idea - but I love her like a sister and it hurts to realize she is unhappy.

[Marr]

111. I have known some girls who only seemed to be attracted to outright jerks, but...

...I think it's usually more about confidence. Arrogant jerks are, pretty much by definition, very confident. I think most people are drawn to strong personalities. People who a sure of themselves or at least aren't shy about getting what they want. You don't have to be a jerk to be confident.

[NoodleyAppendage]

114. Women like outward CONFIDENCE. This has nothing to do with their liking sociopaths.

It just so happens that those negative personality traits are closely tied with an outward display of confidence and self-assured behavior. Men with an outward level of high confidence are likely to generate interest from others, which in turn generates the perception of "demand" among possible mates.

J

[Tailormyst]

121. I also often see truly nice guys with really mean bad tempered women

I don't understand it. I finally found a genuinely good man and I am holding on for life. Bad boys may sometimes provide a brief adrenaline rush but the long lasting results are never good.

[raccoon]

123. One explanation of why some men think "women don't like nice guys."

I've posted this before, but I'll post it again.


"…many of the guys arguing for the "women don't date nice guys" are not interested in dating any ole "nice girl." They want to date a hot babe. Now, the hot babe who has got herself all together really *can* land the guy who is "all that, and a bag of chips." (i.e., a hot guy who has it all together--mazel tov, you beautiful and together couple!) So, for the guy who is merely "all that" but not "the bag of chips" (or the "bag of chips," but not really "all that"), the best shot at getting a hot babe is to go for the hot-but-messed-up babe. Messed up women *do* often date jerks (that I will definitely conceed). So, in a nutshell, why do these guys get their undies all in a wad about the messed up women who date jerks? Because maybe their only chance with a hot babe is with such types of "damaged goods." "

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.marriage/bro ...

[KittyWampus]

125. Indeed, instead of asking "why are all the guys/girls such jerks" ask yourself why you are attracted

to guys/girls who are jerks.

And then started revising your criteria about what is desirable and attractive in a mate.

[Romulox]

126. Do you really think an average looking woman is worth changing one's entire personality for?

That knife cuts both ways, doesn't it?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

133. How deep-thinking of you

You judge women entirely by their looks?

Then you deserve every psycho-shrew you find.

[Romulox]

135. LOL. Have you read this thread at all?

It is no less superficial (not to say immature) to value looks in a relationship than it is to value "danger" or "excitement", as many women up thread have confessed.

But that really wasn't my point. My point is this: women who think that they can command a better-than-average guy (w/r/t "danger", e.g.) without themselves having more to offer than the average are setting themselves up for unhappiness.

Why would you think it worked otherwise? And why, on a thread in which women are listing which traits they do and do not like would you think that the flip side of the equation, namely what men value, shouldn't be discussed? :shrug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

145. Here's the problem:

A lot of men consider looks FIRST. I've even seen personals ads in which men demanded a particular hair color or even dress size. It's as if they have a physical type in mind and anyone who doesn't match it is automatically rejected, which means that they miss out on a lot of great women.

I've never heard of a real (as opposed to fictional) woman putting looks first. We're as capable as men of being dazzled by a handsome man, but he'd better have some fine character traits to go with it, or we lose interest fast.

I distinctly remember when a new boy transferred into our high school and ended up in my speech and drama class. When he walked in, all the girls gaped at him, he was so good-looking. After a couple of days, though, we realized that he was an egotistical jerk. In the two years remaining in high school, he had one short-term relationship.

I've seen this again and again. One of the "nice guys" I rejected (introduced on a blind date) looked more like a young Gregory Peck than any human being should have a right to. But he had flat affect and no conversational skills. I even tried the technique of asking open-ended questions, to which he gave one- and two-word answers.

If you were to take all the men I've been involved with in my life and line them up, there would not be any physical resemblance between them at all, except that they had wicked glints in their eyes but weren't really wicked. Those glints in the eyes are signs of the traits that I value most after kindness, honesty, and fidelity: high intelligence, verbal wit, and a wide-ranging mind. These traits are harder to find as I grow older, as most of the men with these traits marry fairly young and tend to stay married unless their wife dies or dumps them.

[kwassa]

150. Speaking of the personal ads ...

and superficiality ..... way back when the big newspapers started carrying pages of them, I started reading through them every week. After awhile I realized, as I read the "women seeking men" category some words kept popping up in many of the ads. "Tall" was the number one popular descriptor, and "affluent" was the next most popular among those women seeking men. At one point more than half the ads had these words in them.

Superficiality can cut both ways, too.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

154. The husband of a friend of mine read through the personal ads once out of curiosity

and reported back that while a lot of the women sounded really active and interesting, most of the men sounded boring and unimaginitive, definitely not the type he sought out as friends.

[dustbunnie]

159. You're posting a lot of personal, anecdotal observations.

There was a thread here some months ago concerning personal ads, and the two owners of dating companies interviewed both agreed that women had become incredibly shallow and consumerist. As much as men have been guilty of "type-shopping" it seems the women have caught up. Although far from "hawt" and not particularly interesting, women now believe they are totally entitled to be with men who are tall, gorgeous, fit, and wealthy regardless. I run across these women a lot in my business, and from my personal, anecdotal observations, I have to concur.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

163. Maybe it's a generational difference

Most people who advertise in personals columns are now in their thirties.

[dustbunnie]

172. It's possible. I think the women they were talking about were between 30-40.

(Can't find the article again, but it was published in the UK based on US and UK surveys/studies.)

The real deciding factor was that most of them were financially secure and had good careers. So like men, they've decided they can buy love, or feel they deserve it because of their financial situation. I work in the health club business, and there's always a big turnover of new, upper middle class divorcees. These ladies whine and complain constantly about the lack of quality men and also don't understand why they have such trouble connecting. Most are unattractive, out of shape, and some are distinctly unbearable to be around for longer than 5 mins. None would consider their situation to be of their own doing.

[Romulox]

156. Thanks for making this point.

It seems some women are only seeing this from their own perspective: Why can't men change this and that and the other about themselves. Oh, and why won't men accept me the way I am?

It's hard to make some of them see the disconnect between these two lines of thought.

[seabeyond]

161. absolutely. nt

[Romulox]

155. Thanks for the thoughtful response.

However, I do think it misses the point a bit. The "traits that (you) value most..." are only available to you to the extent that the traits that *you* possess meet the needs of the person who possesses the aforementioned traits.

In other words, it's pointless to complain that the sort of men who possess laundry list of traits that you desire will not accept you as you are. :hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

166. Well, I actually understand that I'm not what most men are looking for

In my age group, most men are looking for a younger woman because they've decided they want to have children after all, or for someone who will be their housekeeper with benefits. I fit into neither category. I'm looking for an extremely intelligent equal companion with benefits. I know from experience that less intelligent men, "nice" as they may be, soon feel threatened, and for my part, I get bored with them. I know that relationships will always be difficult for me, and I've accepted it.

A lot of the whiners think they're single because "women" (all women, not just the ones they're chasing) ALL prefer bad boys. It's their excuse for not accepting that maybe they're to blame. Being passive-aggressive isn't "nice." Being a door mat isn't "nice."

[raccoon]

140. Who said anything about changing one's entire personality? nt

[Romulox]

153. That's kind of the implication of "be assertive!" admonishments upthread...

innit? :shrug:

[seabeyond]

162. if either gender is quiet and a wallflower then both genders have less opportunity

people tend to strong and confident in both gender. unless they have a need to be needed....

not gender oriented

sad for those quiet ones, but in awareness there are things they can do to allow more explosure, ergo more opportunity to connect

[Romulox]

176. Right. If either gender doesn't conform to the respective gender stereotypes, they'll be unhappy

My only point is that cuts two ways. Not many wealthy men with outgoing but plain wives, for example. :shrug:

[seabeyond]

180. being quiet isnt about respective gender stereotypes. it is about making self available. nt

[NashVegas]

139. Re: All That and a Bag of Chip

I bet Elin thought Tiger was. Maybe she just didn't have herself as all together as she looks.

[raccoon]

124. It's always easier to say, "All men/women are (fill in the blank with negative characteristic) than

it is to look at yourself, and see what you might be contributing to the situation.

[Romulox]

127. Women need to accept that THEY select for these negative traits...

:hi:

[seabeyond]

129. dammit, accept a nontruth cause it coddles males ego. geeesh. lol. nt

[Romulox]

130. I understand about 50% of what you post. Just FYI. nt

[EOTE]

167. And that's being kind.

This is a poster who believes any "science" that denigrates men, yet completely dismisses anything that paints them in a positive light (I can't really vouch for the accuracy of the above article).

That women tend to seek assholes has always been accepted by me. I've had a mostly successful dating life, but that's been in spite of having to deal with girls who would want me as a friend and fuck the guy who would treat them like shit. And I don't buy that women are just looking for a guy with a bit of an edge and a sense of humor. I can't tell how many times I've been passed over for the guy who couldn't string together a coherent sentence, much less engage in anything approaching witty conversation. Or how many times I've been passed over for the unemployed asshole when I've been steadily employed in IT from the age of 16. I know not all women are this way, but a lot of them are. It can be damned frustrating to be told that I just need to develop a sense of humor when I've been passed over for boys who couldn't make a toddler laugh, much less an adult.

[seabeyond]

169. rollin eyes.

did you understand that or too complicated for you.

[EOTE]

173. Yep, that was relatively comprehensible.

Aside from proper punctuation or capitalization, that is. I'd stick with that level of discourse if you want to be understood.

[seabeyond]

175. there is a solution

dont read my fuckin posts. strange concept and all

i have plenty of people i interact with. a small few dont like my posts. dont read them. hurts me.............NOT

[Romulox]

178. I know you're not responding to me, but I was just kidding.

I didn't mean to take it to this level of animosity. You're a good egg in my book, and I don't think you're anti-male as such. You've got your perspective, I've got mine, and I'm comfortable with that. :hi:

[seabeyond]

181. yup

backatcha. this dude follows me around. i generally dont respond. but i get the same ole, same ole from him.

[EOTE]

179. Pretty laughable considering you were the one responding to me.

I thought it the contents of your post was pretty ironic, so I commented to ANOTHER poster regarding that. You decided to in turn respond to me when I never responded to you in the first place. It would seem that perhaps YOU shouldn't be reading my "fuckin posts". I interact with plenty of people as well, I can't imagine any of them really have a difficult time deciphering what I say, even if some don't agree with it. Once again, don't read my posts if they offend you so much.

[raccoon]

217. SOME women might, not ALL women do.

What you just said is the equivalent of somebody saying, "All men beat women."

[Romulox]

243. ONLY women do.

:hi:

[seabeyond]

247. SOME men are not known to connect with the mean girls? i think so. nt

[Echo In Light]

136. Bill Hicks: Chicks Dig Jerks

Aw, man Oh, Hitler had Ava Braun,
Manson had Squeaky Frawn,
Ted Bundy got lots of dates,
I wonder what I'm doing wrong.
I don't pretend to understand women's little quirks
Just one thing I know for sure - chicks dig jerks, yeah.
Well, if I meet one more single mom
Whose true love is up and gone
Tells me on her trailer porch
'Bout that man
Still carries a torch,
Sure, he came home drunk each night
Beat the kids and her in a fight,
But, man, she loves him so,
It's so hard to let him go, aw.
Well, I don't pretend to understand women's little quirks,
Just one thing I know for sure - chicks dig jerks.
Well, I'm sure there's some out there who can relate,
Particularly young men without a date
See some jerk, some fine, fine babe,
Go driving away, aw.
Well, is that a new bruise you got on you?
What does it say, that he loves you?
Sure he beats you, but afterwards he cries, "Oh, baby, I could die."
Honey, I don't think that's nothing to be proud of,
I think it's called alcoholism
I don't think you should move away,
Stay with him till you're in your grave, yeah.
"You're so sweet."
"Can't we just be friends?"
"I think of you as a brother."
Aw, man. You're hurting me.
What do I have to offer you, baby?
Poetry and true love.
That's not enough, I know for sure,
You need someone to throw you through the door.
Well, I don't pretend to understand women's little quirks.
Just one thing I know for sure-chicks dig jerks!
Chicks dig jerks, it's so true.
Tell you, man, be mean to 'em man, they'll never leave you, then,
'Cause chicks dig jerks.
Just ignore 'em.
Act like they're not there.
Man, you're gonna be pulling chicks out of your hair.
They love that.
Act like you don't care,
Aw, look at them everywhere, they come running.
Tired of being a good guy Such a lonely life.
I'm gonna be a jerk Yeah, that's right, I'm gonna step on lots of toes.
Whoo, girls gonna go crazy for that kind of guy.
Baby, I'm gonna act like I don't know you.
Not gonna return one of your calls.
Yeah, I'm a jerk And it's working out.

[lildreamer316]

137. REQUIRED READING for this thread:

http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/niceguys.shtml

You hear it all the time: "He was such a NICE Guy, and she's such a Heartless Bitch for dumping him."

I get letters from self-professed Nice Guys, complaining that women must WANT to be treated like shit, because THEY, the "Nice Guy" have failed repeatedly in relationships. This is akin to the false logic that "Whales are mammals. Whales live in the sea. Therefore, all mammals live in the sea."

If you have one bad relationship after another, the only common denominator is YOU. Think about it.

What's wrong with Nice Guys? The biggest problem is that most Nice Guys (tm) are hideously insecure. They are so anxious to be liked and loved that they do things for other people to gain acceptance and attention, rather than for the simply pleasure of giving. You never know if a Nice Guy really likes you for who you are, or if he has glommed onto you out of desperation because you actually paid some kind of attention to him.

Nice Guys exude insecurity -- a big red target for the predators of the world. There are women out there who are "users" -- just looking for a sucker to take advantage of. Users home-in on "Nice Guys", stroke their egos, take them for a ride, add a notch to their belts, and move on. It's no wonder so many Nice Guys complain about women being horrible, when the so often the kind of woman that gets attracted to them is the lowest form of life...

..continued at link.

[NashVegas]

138. I Know a Nice Guy / Bad Guy Who Has No Trouble Getting Laid

The problem is, the women he dates for up to two months at a time all tend to be bat-shit crazy.

He really is a nice guy, but has some serious trust issues. It's just easier for him to present his little studly self to some hottie w/no self-respect and wait for her to jump him than it is to take the personal risks you have to for a solid, adult relationship. If he ever pulls his head out of his ass, he'll make a great Mr. Wonderful. Until then ...

[raccoon]

141. This deserves to be repeated:

If you have one bad relationship after another, the only common denominator is YOU. Think about it.

[Z_I_Peevey]

177. Women Who Love Psychopaths

by Sandra L. Brown and Liane J. Leedom. More required reading.

Highly recommended for those who are truly interested in the subject, or who wish to override some of the scripts imposed by patriarchal society.

http://www.justlikehisfather.com/women_who_love_psychopaths.html

[Echo In Light]

190. Official Culture - A Natural State of Psychopathy?

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/official_culture.htm

Good read

[Kalyke]

143. They key words here are "boys" and "girls."

Yes, most people in their youth want a good and somewhat dangerous time; however, when girls turn into WOMEN, they want a safe, nice MAN who won't cheat on or beat or subjugate us.

Do we want some adventure and romance? Sure, but a nice man can do that without losing his decency.

[wuushew]

149. So when does "youth" end?

some combination of career status and how close a woman is to 30?

[Kalyke]

171. Some people - of both genders - never grow up.

Thankfully, most of us do - and it has nothing to do with a biological number. I was grown by 25.

Unfortunately, my first husband was not. He's still not.

Fortunately, I was still grown: dumped him for cheating, spent some time growing myself and raising our child (without consistent child support, mind you) and finally found a man who was also a grown-up.

In the thread, a woman said she LOVES masculine, but not macho. I agree. My husband is masculine, but he's also caring, loving and shares equally with me both chores and emotion.

FWIW, "grown up" doesn't mean "stodgy." We can all act like kids sometime as long as it doesn't mean we're screwing someone else over. My husband likes his "toys" (electronics) and I still get fascinated by holidays and their traditions.

:hi:

[Echo In Light]

144. It's one of those touchy subjects where, to save face, either side insists the other has it wrong

... and for what should be very obvious reasons.

[seabeyond]

148. it is an insult to all the millions of women that chose good men to live with and an insult

to millions of good men that live with respect to their woman.

it insults both genders.

does your woman get hot when you are mean and disrespectful to her?

[Echo In Light]

152. No, but she's never had any desire to assimilate to prevailing corp culture affectations

A brainwashed populace has much more to do with control out and away from work and politics, yet it's all interconnected.

[seabeyond]

160. hence my argument. the new fad new science of the worst of who we are

conditioning both genders.

[Echo In Light]

164. I'm not so sure how 'new' this theory is, however

I mean, even back in my teen yrs of the 80s, what the OP alludes to was common knowledge for many ... be it accurate or otherwise, which, given the volatility of the subject, is usually subjective, based on one's personal experiences w/love, sex and relationships.

[seabeyond]

170. new science. the magazine or whatever it is. and the whole evolutionary behavior bullshit

it all ties to women are nothing and men are all that.... in every damn study.

they have books, groups ect.... teaching men and boys how to be asses to women/girls to get laid. there is a problem in that

[NobleCynic]

194. It isn't that sinister or complicated

The scientific question is to explain why there are still these strong negative traits among men in the human population.

It has a couple of basic assumptions

1. Personality traits are at least in some part genetic.
2. "Negative" personality traits such as narcissism, arrogance, thrill seeking, and the like comprise a significant minority of the population.

And it has a couple of questions it seeks to answer

1. If we accept that these traits are negative, why have they not been bred out of the population?
2. If we accept that these traits are positive, why have they not bred other traits out of the population?

And they generally propose the following answer as a possible explanation for the maintenance of sociopaths in an equilibrium as a minority of the population:

Those that exhibit these negative traits are successful in emulating generally accepted forms of displaying genetic superiority to potential mates. However the success of this strategy can only be maintained if the percentage of the population with these negative traits remains a small minority. A greater share of the population leads the traits to less marginal success from an evolutionary stand point. Society in effect has a carrying capacity for sociopaths, beyond which, for whatever reason, they are less able to reproduce.

This is not necessarily sexist. It states that these "jerk" personality traits are a successful strategy for reproduction for a minority of the population, but has a negative feedback loop built in such that it will never become anything other than a minority. It paints them as evolutionary parasites.

If you insist on painting this in a sexist light feel free, but it seems to be complementary to the majority of women. The majority of women do not reproduce with these men.

[dustbunnie]

198. It's DU. Many people only read headlines. Many people don't understand scientific concepts. n/t

[seabeyond]

203. more than one dont buy into the "scientific" of these studies. good to hear you do

oh wait...

you dont. pick and chose which studies are absolute and which one you question

[dustbunnie]

205. I usually try to read beyond the headlines here at DU.

Especially since people make up all kinds of claims that are nowhere in the story. Like the Fructose/HFCS thread running up and downstream today. Also, I like to read the source, and then google to find if it's been written up the same elsewhere. Like the testosterone "study" we both replied to.

Here, I don't think you read the actual article. That's clear from some of your posts. Like where you make fun of the author. The article states that the findings coincide with another study presented the same day that used 35,000 subjects worldwide to come to similar conclusions. I would have questioned the veracity of this particular study because it uses only college-age students, but with the bolstering of the other study, plus the fact that we ALL have seen anecdotal evidence, and only have to look to classic literature through to the present to see that there is merit in what's been proposed.

I think you have problems with what you believe to be sexism at every turn, and also you have this idea that all issues between the genders have only been in existence for the last 10 years. Your biases contribute to sometimes misunderstanding what you read.

[seabeyond]

201. there are always assumptions to be made

and inevitably they point in one, and only one direction ignoring all other common sense or logic. again.... hence my argument

[samsingh]

174. i am a mean, bad son of a _______

do you love me now?

[snooper2]

183. You are not bad...

Until you get a ticket for "failure to yeild to an emergency vehicle with flashing lights and audible siren"


:rofl:

[The Straight Story]

188. I'll add that to my bucket list

:)

[Mopar151]

193. But the real badass is drivin' the ambulance!

My man T was riding in the right seat, his girlfriend is in the back going into anaphalctic shock - some dipstick in front of them would'nt yeild - the ambulance driver spun him out like Dale Sr., swerved around him, and put the hammer down. I'm good with crazy brave.. bad people ought to learn not to mess.....

[snooper2]

199. You can get that same ticket in multiple instances...

In mine I just happened to be trying to outrun a cop on my 1979 CB750 Super Sport...which I was doing until I wiped out on a low water bridge going around a lake :rofl:

He was none the too happy :)

[Mopar151]

208. They call that "failing to stop for an officer" in these parts.

:mad: And the cop(s) will do a Rodney King on your ass if they think they can. God forbid the cop wrecks a cruiser tryin' to catch ya:banghead: happened to a friend of mine, they tried to put him UNDER the jail! (Cost him $5K to a lawyer to get out of it)
OTOH, that's likely why fire, rescue, and ambulance in these parts use red lights, and the cops use blue.

[DeltaLitProf]

195. I have RUN with scissors!

Now ladies, would you like to go to dinner with me?

[seabeyond]

200. as long as you didnt have a sucker in your mouth at the same time.... lol. nt

[mamaleah]

196. I think the bad guys only get the girls until the girls grow up into women

and realize a certain amount of safety, comfort, and predictability is actually quite pleasant.

[slackmaster]

197. I was wondering about that yesterday while contemplating hitting on a woman in a bar

I let the opportunity slide because I didn't want to come off as an intoxicated jerk.

Maybe I'm really not bad enough.

[mitchum]

204. The best angle to work is the "poetic bad boy" angle...

it works great.
Trust me.

[Oeditpus Rex]

206. Speaking on behalf of Nice Guys everywhere...

We've never been anyone's idea of a hot date, but when "girls" become women, we're the ones they appreciate because they want a man who appreciates and respects them.

Buck up, lads. In the long run, we win, and it's worth the wait.

[wuushew]

209. kick

:kick:

[noamnety]

210. such phrasing. "Get" more girls.

Not have relationships with them, but "get" them, as if they are possessions.

Is it better to get the most women? More than whom? Is it a contest?

[Lilith Velkor]

214. In this case, "get" is a euphemism for "fuck"

It is a contest of every straight guy vs. every other straight guy, and the winner gets a lifetime supply of herpes.

What I wonder is whether the propensity for casual sex (and the perceived necessity to lie about it in order to have it with a straight woman) makes one automatically a "bad" man, thus skewing the data so as to render it meaningless.

[noamnety]

215. I think you've cracked the code.

"Jerks fuck as many people as possible."

T?hat likely holds true regardless of gender.

[apocalypsehow]

211. These OP's always sadden: they consistenly prove "Progressives" respect science, right up until they

don't - just like their conservative counterparts vis a vi Climate Change and Evolution.

Look at the angry, hissing responses to these scientific facts: all those oxes being gored, and so-called "Progressives" hissing the loudest 'cuz they don't like the data.

Sad.

[GaYellowDawg]

219. I wouldn't call that great science.

The participants are a very narrow set, the results are not necessarily repeatable nor verifiable. It's not like it's physical data like you see in climate change and evolution.

[Blasphemer]

213. Figures that I'd manage to get my heart broken by an actual nice guy! nt

[Scout]

216. but who is getting the good women?

i prefer a good man to a bad boy and to a nice guy....

but then i'm not a girl :shrug:

[GaYellowDawg]

218. This looks like so much bullshit to me.

I'm a nice guy. I really am. I know exactly why I'm still single. It's not because I'm a nice guy. It's because for most of my life, I've been way too immature to handle any kind of long-term relationship, and women knew it. And I've allowed myself to get out of shape physically, and I've drifted without finding a real career. Neither of those things attracts women. Also, on dates, I am apparently as interesting as buttered toast - after you've had 3 slices of buttered toast. So there are 3 things I need to do. Get 40 more pounds off in addition to the 40 I've lost. Get finished with my doctorate and find a job. Go out and find some new, interesting hobbies where I can meet a lot of new people. It's not about being nice/mean. It's about maximizing your appeal, meeting as many people as possible and not being whiny if someone's not interested, just moving on.

[seabeyond]

220. guy.... how healthy and balanced, lol. reasonable.

and i was gonna come on and say, ok, i give up, all you guys found us women out, really, we dont like you. only the very small group of alphas will do for us. the rest.... SOL.

i didnt get married until 32. i knew why too. cause i didnt want to, lol. within a year of deciding i would give a search a try, just be open to a relationship, boom.... found a guy i could spend a weekend with. generally i was ready for a guy to be out the door before end of date. i thought a weekend of not ready to shove him out the door a HUGE success.

16 yrs later, and marriage is the easiest.

[raccoon]

223. Kudos to you! You got that right:

"It's about maximizing your appeal, meeting as many people as possible and not being whiny if someone's not interested, just moving on."

[dustbunnie]

225. Nowhere does it say that nice guys don't get girls. They did and always will.

What is being proposed is that bad boys get "more." It's a matter of sheer numbers and has nothing to do with quality of relationships. Guess what? Bad girls get "more" guys too.

The reason why people find it more fascinating to study males in this area is because it's generally the male portion of society that is still responsible for making the first move and men with good game attain more prestige in our society.

[Romulox]

226. Actually, as somebody who's been married for (several) years, I disagree with you...

Sure, improve yourself. Of course, finish school. Get into whatever hobby provides a spark.

But if you think you're going to sculpt yourself into somebody someone could love, forget it. It doesn't work like that.

"It's about maximizing your appeal"

No. It's about coming to grips with who you are. No matter what your flaws, people will love you if *you* love you...if losing 40 lbs is what causes that to happen, fine, but just realize that doing so is neither necessary nor sufficient for it to happen.

/Dr. Phil

[seabeyond]

228. No matter what your flaws, people will love you if *you* love you

i think this is about the best bottom line.

boy, am i surprised, grinnin. nah, not really. and surprise is good.

but do all the stuff, ya. but here today, if one choose, could find fun now too, instead of waiting until

(to your point understanding only 50%. i agree. this is one of the posts i am purposely not being specific. a person can get it or not. so sorry. not gonna edit. lol)

[GaYellowDawg]

249. Here's the logic -

If I feel like I've maximized my appeal, that will make me much more self-confident and secure, which is a much, much better place to be when dating. I also feel that I have an obligation right now to improve myself because I think whomever is out there for me deserves better than I'm offering at this moment. I hope that makes sense.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

239. I predict that you will not be single for life

You are clear-headed and honest.

[Cerridwen]

221. Would it surprise anyone that the conclusions presented in the article

don't quite match what the "study" reported?

Here's the link to the .pdf of the "study"

The Participants:

Two hundred and twenty-four psychology undergraduate students at New Mexico State University (88 men, 136 women) aged 17–43 years (mean=23.50, median=21, SD=6.40) received extra credit for participation. The majority of the sample (88%) was heterosexual, 5% was homosexual and 6% was bisexual (1% nonresponsive).

First, advertise extra credit. Then test to see if any of those who chose to participate are self-aggrandizing, self-interested, opportunists. Check.

The Procedure:

Participants received a packet that (a) informed them of the nature of the study, (b) asked demographic questions and (c) asked them to respond to the self-report items described below. Participants completed the survey alone in a room with a closed door and a two-way mirror that allowed an experimenter to monitor the participant’s progress. Upon completion, the participants were debriefed and thanked for their participation.

Next, tell the opportunistic, blow hards what exactly the "study" is intended to evaluate then ask them to self-report based on the evaluation criteria. Check.

Yep. I don't see a problem with that at all.

Fortunately, the article doesn't look like it has much to do with the study in the first place. Unfortunately, the article will be touted as "fact" and validation for assholes to be assholes. Oh, yay.


Is there an evo-psych report/study out there that isn't a "scientific" validation for a teen-aged* boy's love affair with his penis {eta} and reassurance of his "manliness"? (*teen-aged regardless of chronological age.)

edit for broken end tag on formatting

[seabeyond]

222. "scientific" validation for a teen-aged* boy's love affair with his penis

*sigh*.... no, not surprised at all. hey reality should not interfer with a story told. dontcha know.

reality is.... though opens door for males to be asses, they arent gonna get it when they try, so fail. secondly, really an insult to most all men saying they are not worth sex to the female, SOL, no sex for you. why would the guy want to promote or believe this shit.

[Cerridwen]

224. I think I edited as you were replying. That phrase is still there but

I added to it.

It is insulting to men and boys; at least it appears that way to me. I'm surprised at the number of men who do glomb onto this kind of drek.

[seabeyond]

230. ultimately. every one of these studies is insult to vast majority of males and raising a select few

to be worshipped. and men fall to their knees bowing down. really really sad

of course, it is also the ugliest for women too. but that is a given. so, out of all of humanity a very small select group of male shine and the rest of us is mud

men buy it.

amazing to me

when i am really standing up for the men, and they are dissing their own gender, they attack with "manhater". the ironic of it all

[dustbunnie]

235. That's because your reasoning is fallacious...

and your reading comprehension isn't so hot.

Nowhere in this article does it put down nice guys. In fact, all it says is that people with sociopathic tendencies have more sex and less meaningful relationships. Duh. You really want to argue with that?

[dustbunnie]

234. I think the study sounds about right and was not needed as it's a function of common sense.

If your only goal is to get blow jobs in the back seat of your car, you will spend a great portion of your time perfecting a way to get it. Eventually, if you learn enough, you will be successful in your endeavor. It isn't rocket science and I don't know why people get so offended by this proposal that people who are obsessed with getting sex can succeed in doing so. And I sure don't get why people are offended that there are others out there who care only about sex and not relationships.

As well, this particular study of college students isn't the only one referenced in the article. There was this as well...

"This observation seems to hold across cultures. David Schmitt of Bradley University in Peoria, Illinois, presented preliminary results at the same meeting from a survey of more than 35,000 people in 57 countries. He found a similar link between the dark triad and reproductive success in men. "It is universal across cultures for high dark triad scorers to be more active in short-term mating," Schmitt says. "They are more likely to try and poach other people's partners for a brief affair."

[meow2u3]

227. Sociopathic liars have an easy time getting their way

They're such good liars that it takes months, if not years, for their victims to figure out that bad boys are the assholes they are.

[therealbarack]

229. And where's the news?

Welcome to my college years

[Hello_Kitty]

233. A lot of so-called "nice guys" are shallow, passive-aggressive wankers. eom

[wuushew]

238. I am not convinced P-A personality is vastly more prevalent than simple introversion

99% percent of bars have an unequal male-female ratio at all times in all areas. If everyone has a personality match then where is their opposite number?

At least non-asshole males make some attempt, where are the females? I suspect they are sitting in pews somewhere or other locatations where attempts at small talk would be to disengenious with my basic philosophy on life.

Diagnostic criteria (DSM-IV Appendix B)
Passive-aggressive personality disorder was listed as an Axis II personality disorder in the DSM-III-R, but was moved in the DSM-IV to Appendix B ("Criteria Sets and Axes Provided for Further Study") because of controversy and the need for further research on how to also categorize the behaviors in a future edition. As an alternative, the diagnosis Personality disorder not otherwise specified may be used instead. The DSM-IV Appendix B definition is as follows:<3>

A) A pervasive pattern of negativistic attitudes and passive resistance to demands for adequate performance, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicted by four (or more) of the following:
passively resists fulfilling routine social and occupational tasks
complains of being misunderstood and unappreciated by others
is sullen and argumentative
unreasonably criticizes and scorns authority
expresses envy and resentment toward those apparently more fortunate
voices exaggerated and persistent complaints of personal misfortune
alternates between hostile defiance and contrition

B) Does not occur exclusively during major depressive episodes and is not better accounted for by dysthymic disorder.

[seabeyond]

240. appreciate this. even though we may have our definition

it is always good to look it up. boys will ask me to define a word adn i will inevitably grab my dictionary to read it. though i could easily explain. sometimes i am surprised with definition.

i think we hear more the behavior instead of the reason with passive aggressive

[Hello_Kitty]

241. I'm not suggesting that passive aggressiveness doesn't exist in females

I am saying that a subset of self-described "nice guys" engage in annoying manipulative behavior that turns women off, while getting sympathy from the public at large.

[yurbud]

242. I once overheard a girl telling another girl what an asshole I was...

a few weeks later, she was pursuing me and we ended up dating for two years.

[seabeyond]

244. did you treat her like shit for two years? nt

[yurbud]

246. no. I'm actually a very nice guy and she was older. At the time though I didn't censor

what came out of my mouth, so some people mistook lack of inhibition for assholery.

[seabeyond]

248. but you werent. you were the nice guy that got the girl for two years.

i have a tougher time sensory mouth now than then. i hear ya

[Buns_of_Fire]

245. I had an overdue library book once. Does that count?

[DutchLiberal]

250. DUH.