Abortion is murder!

[PeaceNikki]

It's especially troubling to hear this "argument" in any setting if one has personally made the choice, exercised their right to a legal medical procedure after a very unplanned event. An accident.

Everyone who has ever been through one has a very personal story to go along with it. Most are tear-jerking and gut-wrenching stories. Many of courage and strength. I've been through it personally and with people I love. Am I going to tell you these gut-wrenching stories? No. It's frankly none of your business and I don't feel the need to justify my or their decisions to anyone. No one should.

I've repeatedly walked through the gauntlet of protesters shouting "MURDERER" at me, holding their graphic signs portraying images of horror telling me that I will burn in hell for all of eternity.

I get that some people don't agree with abortion and claim that they would never make the decision themselves. I UNDERSTAND the moral dilemma that they face... but they very clearly don't understand ours. They aren't interested. I don't think it's right that anyone EVER equate abortion to murder. Disagree with it, fine. But to use such an emotional, accusatory and imflammatory word to describe a legal medical procedure is unacceptable.

When I see/hear it ANYWHERE I try to remind people that using an emotionally charged word like "murder" is inflammatory and illogical. It is so completely void of compassion and empathy for anything other than the fetus. It's hypocrisy in the highest order and comes from such a place of moral superiority that it would be laughable if it weren't so fucking sick.

the end.

peace

(reposted as to remove any reference to anyone or anything specific)

[Frosty1]

1. This is the best I have ever read on the subject

Conceded- Life - Human life if you will, begins at conception. The rule of potentiality says It ( the fetus) will never become anything else.

It must also be conceded that every single one of us (pro-life, pro-choice or fundamental Christian) will commit murder (put and end to) if we feel sufficiently threatened whether our self image (however much a sham) or our physical being ( however unworthy that being it matters not) Which is why even the most devout "absolute" believing person will compromise if the situation calls for it.

We preach that as a society it is our solemn patriotic duty to go off and kill (murder) nameless countless numbers of persons. Women, children and men who's malice towards us is not all that proven. We give medals for the most kills and shame those who don't.

We praise a man who shoots an intruder. He acted out of duty to protect his family. Yet you want to refuse to allow a woman the right to weigh in balance the immediate and future welfare of her husband, children, ( who have come to love her and depend on her) the fetus, and herself. She has no equal or overriding responsibility to anyone else, No outside party!

I have seen a failure to abort literally devastate a family (contrary to what pro lifers say should happen).
Defenseless? Hardly. Somehow it strikes me as a bad trade.

Only in paradise are there black and white decisions. For the rest of us life is difficult and painful no matter which way we go

[PeaceNikki]

2. Here's a great article by one of my favorite authors:

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html">"The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion" When the Anti-Choice Choose

[ebayfool]

34. She has another that I'm gonna use (w/fundie family members) -

Anti-Choicers Don't Have a Biblical Leg to Stand On
The Bible is Pro-Choice

http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/abortion.html


TY for the link.

[PeaceNikki]

35. Yes... I've read ALL of her work.

Every piece. She's awesome. :)

[ebayfool]

45. I've got one foot on DU & 1 foot on her site ... so much to discover!

And you're right, she is. :fistbump:

[PeaceNikki]

47. Don't miss

http://choice-joyce.blogspot.com/2007/06/repeal-all-abortion-restrictions.html">Repeal All Abortion Restrictions

Full PDF here... long but a MUST read: http://www.arcc-cdac.ca/action/repeal.pdf

I quote and refer to it quite often.

[Kitty Herder]

112. It seems to me that these anti-choice extremists aren't interested in what the Bible says.

If they were, they wouldn't take the position that they do.

What they're interested in is controlling women and reproduction. They feel threatened by women's equality and they're attacking it's most fundamental expression--control over our own bodies.

[femrap]

37. I don't believe life begins at conception....

it begins with birth. Ask Uncle Sam and the IRS about those dependent claims.

And as Thom Hartman has often said...men really have no right to speak of abortion. Men need to control their sperm and then there would be fewer abortions as well as hungry children living in poverty....many of them unwanted and seeking adoption.

We have over 10,000 of these children in Ohio. Set up and adopt if you're so righteous.

[hamsterjill]

127. I agree.

I believe that "life" begins when the first breath is drawn.

[Odin2005]

40. I hate the way the term "Life" is used in such discussions.

IMO it's a euphemism for "soul" used in order to avoid violating the separation of church and state. Sperm and egg cells are "human life" too, each is a genetically unique haploid individual separate from the diploid unicellular individual that produced them. The whole ethical philosophy used to justify anti-choice policies is an intellectually bankrupt attempt to justify using religious ideology to influence policy. When 99% of abortions happen a fetus has the mental capacity of a lizard, yet we eat meat from animals with a greater mental capacity than that every day.

it all comes down to the essentialistic, religious notion of a "soul" that magically appears at conception. It's total nonsense.

[PeaceNikki]

43. Exactly!

One of the most common pro-life claims is that "life begins at conception." Beyond the obvious controversy of this statement, there is actually a second and more subtle error here. And that is that human life began only once: at the dawn of humanity, with the rise of the first human beings. Since then, there has been a continuum of human life: every sperm, every egg and every zygote have been full-fledged signs of human life, complete with all the characteristics of normal cellular activity, and all 46 human chromosomes. (Half of these chromosomes go unused in the case of sperm and eggs, but all 46 are there nonetheless.) The correct question is not "When does human life begin?" but "When does personhood begin?"

From: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-personhood.htm

[Odin2005]

Thanks!

That describes my opinion PERFECTLY!

[Kitty Herder]

111. Well said.

[The Doctor.]

139. Actually less.

There is no cognizance of any kind until the myelin is formed at 24 weeks.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. You've gotten to the heart of the matter...

Indeed, shouting the word murderer is counter-productive in the extreme. It's the kind of word that people (who don't want to have a dialogue with you) use.

There's an excellent book about abortion. It's most likely out of print now, and maybe you already read it, but just in case you haven't:

In Necessity and Sorrow--Life and Death in an Abortion Hospital by Magda Denes is very worthwhile reading.

Peace to you too...

K&R

[Brickbat]

4. The way I feel so strongly about some things, I can see myself calling abortion murder and feeling

completely justified about it, if I were opposed to abortion.

[Bonn1997]

9. Exactly. And it's not as clear-cut to me as the OP portrays it. Abortion is never murder? What about

abortion 8 months into pregnancy? What about abortion 5 seconds before the baby was about to be born?

[PeaceNikki]

10. What about when unicorns poop rainbows?

HUH?!?!


HUH?!?!? WHAT THEN!?

[Canuckistanian]

19. "abortion 5 seconds before the baby was about to be born"?

Tell me ONE INSTANCE of that happening in real life.

Sorry, sport. It doesn't happen. Never has.

And if by chance it WERE true, that doctor should IMMEDIATELY be stripped of their medical license.

And about the "8-month" abortion. It's called "Dilation and Extraction" NOT "Partial Birth Abortion", and it's EXTREMELY RARE. Only done at most 600 times a year and only for cases of saving the mother's life when the fetus is NOT viable.

Read:
http://wc.arizona.edu/papers/92/134/05_1_m.html

[Raster]

122. Fact Alert!!! Fact Alert!!! Must not introduce facts into an emotion-based "discussion."

Can't do that...that might level the playing field and render the emotion-charged outbursts to, well, emotion-charged outbursts.

[Warpy]

23. That's stupid since neither of those scenarios will occur

After the sixth month it's a premature birth unless the fetus is severely deformed, say anencephalic, and won't survive after birth.

While men love to fantasize about heartless women murdering babies a week before they are due because of a conflict with a hair appointment, that's just now how it happens in the real world.

I can't imagine what a low opinion of 50% of the human population these men have. It's appalling.

Sorry to bust ya bubble, mate, but abortion is self defense in most cases. It is done as early as possible, usually under six weeks. Once the fetus is viable, about 6 months gestation, every attempt is made to save it. If it is a non viable fetus, the pregnancy might be terminated at or after the sixth month, but it's extremely rare to do so.

If it makes you feel any better abortion, like all other surgery, is painful. Perhaps you can groove on that instead of fantasies about heartless women murdering babies five minutes before they are born.

[PeaceNikki]

25. Well said.

Thanks. :)

[Hippo_Tron]

28. Late term abortion is a wedge issue for Republicans that is really about nothing

Even if a perfectly healthy woman went to her doctor and asked the doctor to abort a perfectly healthy viable fetus at 8 months pregnant it would not happen. Doctors don't perform risky surgical procedures on perfectly healthy patients just because the patient requests it.

[Bonn1997]

42. You're telling me that no one ever has or ever will have an abortion in the 8th month of pregnancy?

Never? You've made an awfully dubious statement.

[PeaceNikki]

44. Are you claiming it happens with some sort of regularity?

[Bonn1997]

46. Regularity? I don't know enough about the frequency of 8th month abortions in the world to answer

that question. (The OP did not restrict the discussion to the US.) Regularity is also a vague word. And "Non-regular" murder is still tragic anyway.

[PeaceNikki]

48. I know that's it's pretty fucking rare.

And that we can trust women to exercise their sensible moral judgment and we can trust doctors to exercise their professional medical judgment.

The OP was started because of people calling any and all abortion "murder".

[Warpy]

51. Try nonexistant

By the eighth month, it's a premature birth whether or not the fetus can survive.

The only time such a late pregnancy is terminated is when the fetus is DEAD and has been for some time without being expelled. A D&X is done to save the life of the mother before that dead body inside her kills her.

[PeaceNikki]

52. I don't doubt that this poster will pull some link out of the internets

citing some tabloid in some foreign country in an attempt to "prove" his case.

[Bonn1997]

55. I have no doubt that you will make at least one more false claim within the next five minutes

[PeaceNikki]

56. WTF?

This OP was and is about LEGAL medical procedures.

That's in the OP, did you miss that part? It's right there in the first sentence.

[Bonn1997]

58. You did not restrict the discussion to the US. Maybe this was just an oversight

and you had no geographic restriction intended on your statement. I have no way of knowing.

[PeaceNikki]

59. psst.

I am the OP.

[Bonn1997]

61. Fair enough. Sometimes I don't check usernames. I replaced "OP" with "you" in the previous post and

still stand by that post.

[Kalyke]

79. False claim???

In the United States and in European countries such as the Netherlands, more than 90 percent of all abortions are performed in the first trimester of pregnancy (up to twelve weeks from the last normal menstrual period). Most take place in outpatient clinics specially designed and equipped for this purpose. Nearly all abortions in the United States are performed by physicians, although two states (Montana and Vermont) permit physicians' assistants to do the procedure. A limited number of physicians in specialized clinics perform abortions during the second trimester of pregnancy, but only a few perform abortions after pregnancy has advanced to more than twenty-five weeks.

http://family.jrank.org/pages/3/Abortion-When-How-Abortions-Are-Performed.html

[Bonn1997]

53. I will edit your statement to correct the inaccuracies

Your statement:
"The only time such a late pregnancy is terminated is when the fetus is DEAD and has been for some time without being expelled. A D&X is done to save the life of the mother before that dead body inside her kills her."

Edited statement"
"The only time such a late pregnancy is LEGALLY terminated WITHIN THE US is when the fetus is DEAD and has been for some time without being expelled. A D&X is done to save the life of the mother before that dead body inside her kills her."

[uppityperson]

63. You forgot to put in CAPS "by a qualified doctor in a health care institution

under appropriate anesthesia".

If you are GOING to CAPITALIZE specific WORDS that you ADD, then DON'T forget to ADD as MANY qualifiers as YOU can.
:eyes:

[noiretextatique]

109. since you have no idea what you're talking about

why don't you educate yourself? thanks.

[ismnotwasm]

118. Does a birth that kills a mother

Make the fetus a murderer?

That question uses about the same kind of logic when the word murder is used in any discussion of abortion rights. Or In other words, the murder argument is nonsense.

I suppose the automatic knee jerk response would be the fetus doesn't have a choice to murder it's mother; but murder her it did. She's dead through actions of the fetus.

[Warpy]

50. Honey, I was an RN for a lot of years

and I know far better than religious ranters do what actually happens.

Late abortions are done only for the most tragic of reasons. Once they're up to that last month, the birth process is actually less traumatic, although I'm sure you MEN think having a Caesarian section to rid oneself of a fetus is a walk in the park.

Most late abortions are done in the third to fifth month. By a sixth month abortion's rarity, I'm talking tenths of percents.

Abortions done after the third month are strictly regulated by every state in the country. They can't be done on a whim. They have to be done for medical reasons, usually tragic ones.

I realize you'd rather cling to the fantasy of the woman aborting five minutes before birth because it fits your distorted view of women and of the medical profession. However, I've been in that profession and I'm telling you you're full of it.

Cling to ugly lies if you want to. Just be aware that you'll spend the rest of your life being corrected by wiser people.

[noiretextatique]

110. recommend: this attitide is so misogynistic and insulting

especially when it spewed by so-called "allies." :argh:

[Control-Z]

26. Yeah, those 5-seconds-before-birth abortions

are very popular these days. Women just love the procedure so much they're scheduling them 8 months in advance.

Women have a hard enough time getting 1st trimester abortions. Do you honestly believe that third trimester procedures are being performed for convenience? Honestly?

You're just making stuff up and you know it. Stop it now.

Edit: for redundancy.

[uppityperson]

32. When has someone had an "abortion 5 seconds before the baby was about to be born"?

Those done 8 months along are to save the life of the pregnant woman or because the fetus is not capable of life outside.

[Warpy]

67. As a practical matter

"5 seconds before being born" means the head has already exited and they're exhorting the woman to give one more big push to deliver the body.

The whole idea is so ludicrous it could only have been thought up by a man.

[Raster]

124. An anti-choice man with a misogynistic axe to grind.

Tell it, Sister Woman, Tell It!

[noiretextatique]

107. what inflammatory, illogical nonsense

third trimester abortions are almost always performed to because allowing a pregnant woman to DIE to save her fetus is insane.
5 second before the baby is born :eyes: whatever. here's when abortion is musrder: when you drop bombs on and shoot bullets pregnant women. we've been doing that for years in iraq and afghanistan.

[gleaner]

36. Maybe, but please ....

in any situation, before hurling out words that you cannot take back, remember that there is another human being listening to them. You can wound or scar if you use words that hurt enough. Take your very strong opposition on any issue and put it into constructive action instead.

And every time you are tempted to let go, think of the Tea Baggers and the people screaming names at the disabled and others who needed medical care at those town hall meetings. I am not saying that you would ever, ever do anything like that, it is just the best example I know of right now of people screaming out words which were harsh and wounding. I am disabled and have been for years. It still gets to me occasionally when people tell me I am somehow lacking. I place myself in situations where that might happen, like posting online, and I have gotten better about things like that rolling off my back, but every now and then something does hit home and it hurts like it did the first time I heard it.

[Arkana]

5. They serve cold beer in Hell, I hear.

I'll see you there. :P

[NYC_SKP]

6. I hope we can reduce unwanted pregnancies to zero, that's my hope.

But if want to reduce unwanted pregnancies, I don't know if it helps to call it an accident.

Most often, pregnancy results from consensual sex.

I worry about young people thinking of an unwanted pregnancy as an "accident".

The word "accident" seems to have the effect of deflecting responsibility.

If something can be prevented, but happens anyway, it's usually due to carelessness, negligence, or ignorance of the science.

Like getting in an "accident" because the roads were too icy for the speed of the car.

Aside from that, I agree fully with your post.

Recommended.

[PeaceNikki]

7. Women are at risk of pregnancy for over three decades of their lives,

and they spend most of this time trying to avoid becoming pregnant. So why do women end up needing abortions? My hunch is that most women (1) use contraception, but do so imperfectly; (2) practice abstinence, but do so imperfectly; or (3) some combination of (1) and (2).

[NYC_SKP]

13. You may be right.

That most women fall into category one or two, I'm not sure.

In case one, we need to help them use contraception more perfectly, in two--well, I don't know, that one baffles me.

If you're practicing abstinence, you're either doing it right or you're choosing to "cheat" on it, no accident.

Otherwise there's some kind of abuse, or rape, or substance abuse, or combination involve which is another matter.

But I'm more concerned as a parent, that the word "accident" is used by kids (and adults) to cover all kinds of situations that involved careless choices and behaviors, and it just deflects responsibility and is, in the end, not helpful.

Like I said, fewer unwanted pregnancies is the goal that I think all parties can agree upon.

How to get there is where people become terribly divided.

[PeaceNikki]

14. The sex is obviously not an "accident" but the resulting prenancy often is.

In fact, it's textbook definition of "An unforeseen incident, An unexpected and undesirable event".

Responsibility aside, in many cases it IS an accident.

[PSzymeczek]

49. Many are lied to

by a man who claims to be "shooting blanks." Happened to me.

[Kalyke]

81. And some women just do become pregnant.

I cannot take the Pill - I am very sensitive to hormonal changes and the Pill does horrors to my body.

Therefore, with both my children, I was using a combination of at least two and sometimes three methods of birth control other than the Pill and STILL got pregnant.

My OB/GYN sighs and calls me "Fertile Myrtle."

Both children were "surprises," but I was married and had the financial stability and urge to go full-term.

Thankfully, I am now in those waning days of those fertile decades and I'm not even 40 yet (will be next month). After a series of hot flashes, night sweats and other tell-tale sighs, hormonal testing proved I was in menopause and I could not be more delighted.

[uppityperson]

11. Contraceptives fail.

http://www.contraceptivetechnology.org/table.html
http://womenshealth.about.com/cs/birthcontrol/a/effectivenessbc.htm

Fifty-three percent of unplanned pregnancies occur in women who are using contraceptives. When choosing a method of birth control women often consider the published success/ failure rates for the method they are considering. However, these rates are based on "perfect use" by women--that means using the method exactly as prescribed during every act of sexual intercourse.

The failure rates for a given method of birth control may actually be much higher during "typical use" than you might expect:
* Implants and injectables
2-4%
* Oral contraceptives
9%
* Diaphragm and cervical cap
13%
* Male condom
15%
* Periodic abstinence
22%
* Withdrawal
26%
* Spermicides
28%
(clip)
Why Does Contraception Fail?
The reasons for contraceptive failure are complex and vary according to method:

Oral contraceptives may fail if a woman forgets to take them every day at the same time or if 2 or more pills are missed during a cycle and an alternative method of birth control is not used.

Diaphragms and cervical caps can be moved out of place by the penis thrusting against the cervix.

Condoms can break and/ or semen can leak from them: Period abstinence, or natural family planning, can fail if a woman does not accurately predict her fertile period: IUDs can be dislodged.

Withdrawal can fail if pre-ejaculatory semen enters the cervix or if the man is unable to withdraw his penis before ejaculation.

[grantcart]

16. and in the meantime make adoption as easy as possible.

[MH1]

31. or difficulty accessing contraceptives

I suspect that is a reason in many cases.

[prairierose]

8. Thank you for saying this so eloquently...

this is very clear and easy to understand. Thanks so much for taking the time to write this.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

12. Much like calling soldiers murderers. Hypocritical, Inflammatory and illogical

[stray cat]

22. Right - Killing doesn't always equal murder - self-defense is another example

so even if one sees an unborn child as a life its probably more legitimate calling it killing instead of murder

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

27. Even that position assumes that most soldiers actually kill anyone.

[varelse]

54. Good point (nt)

[darkstar3]

15. Here's something I wrote on that subject shortly before joining DU.

(big snip...)

“Abortion is murder.” That is the mantra of those who vote “Pro-life,” of those who protest outside of abortion clinics, and of those who spend so much time and money attempting to foist their beliefs onto others. “Well allow me to retort.” To all of those who have ever uttered this banality, and all of those (left or right) who believe that abortion should be ANYTHING other than safe and legal, I have trouble believing that this is what you REALLY think. I have trouble understanding how you arrived at this conclusion, especially given your history. You, of all people, LOVE murder. Yes, as shocking as that statement may be, you LOVE it.


You love to watch murder on the big screen. When someone like Arnold Schwarzenegger or Charles Bronson shoots their way through dozens or even hundreds of “badguys” in a single movie, you cheer them on as if you were watching football (and don't get me started on sports violence). Time and again, the box office returns for movies like “Death Wish” and “Collateral Damage” prove that these portrayals speak to the majority of the american public, and entertain them.


You love to watch murder on the small screen. Oh sure, the dozen Law and Order and CSI spinoffs could be attributed to the american love of the crime and punishment saga, but that's not all they are. If it was just about crime and punishment, those shows wouldn't spend so much time, money, and graphical work on the portrayal of the actual murder. The amount of gore I witnessed when watching a single episode of CSI went far beyond what my parents used to consider unacceptable for children, and this is now primetime sweeps-week television.


You love to hear and read about murder in the news. This is the source of the journalistic phrase “If it bleeds, it leads.” This is why the nicer ones among us complain that “you never hear anything good on the news anymore.” And this is why, time and again, the death of a nameless stranger on the streets of my home city will take precedence over important news that will actually affect me, even when the media knows nothing about the murder in question except the approximate time and location.


You love to participate in murder. Yes, YOU love to participate in murder. How do I know? The sheer number of dead ants, frogs, and various other small animals at the hands of american children experimenting with cruelty is proof enough. But then we also have the ridiculous number of people who would “line up to throw the switch,” or “shoot him and drag him into the house,” etc. And that doesn't even get into the issue of hunting. Yes, hunters have been demonized by both sides of the political spectrum, but the bottom line is that some of them do it because it is a way for them to kill legally. You can identify these particular hunters easily by the fact that they cannot stop hunting through the course of the year, and they cannot tell you why they MUST hunt.


Finally, you love the fact that, every day, murder is happening in your name. Uniformed officers around the country and around the world commit murder every day, and not only do they have the approval of the state, they were ordered to do so BY the state. You laud police officers for killing petty thieves and drug addicts, corrections officers for fulfilling death sentences, and armed service members for dropping bombs on civilians. It's all in the name of truth, justice, and the American way, and there's just no way that can be bad in your mind.


All those murders, and you never said a word. All that violence, and not only did you stay silent, many of you were in the thick of it. And yet now, you draw a line. A line that allows so many forms of murder, and yet somehow abhors the “murder of the unborn.” Well you'll have to forgive me if I think that's total bullshit, but with your track record on murder, I'm gonna have to take that with a grain of salt.


Here's what I think...”Abortion is murder” is a canard, or a red herring if you prefer, designed to allow people to oppose abortion and still seem as though they are championing some sort of righteous cause. You don't want to talk about the fact that anti-abortion sentiment has some roots in white supremacy.* You don't want to look at history and realize that abortion has been around for thousands of years even when it was illegal. And you don't even want to hint at an admission that anti-abortion sentiment is misogynistic as hell. So you root for the war in Afghanistan, you make jokes about the death penalty and “castle laws,” and then you say “I'm against abortion because it is murder, plain and simple” rather than admitting the fact that you're against abortion because you're an asshole. Bigot, sexist, or power monger, one way or another, there's no way around the fact that YOU, Mr. “Pro-Life-but-Really-Just-Anti-Abortion” are an oversized cock-biting asshole.

[PeaceNikki]

18. That's true of many, but not all anti-choicers.

Take the DFLA, for example. They are anti-war and anti death penalty and anti-choice.

They also join the ranks of the scum who call it murder.

[darkstar3]

20. Well, every rule has exceptions...n/t

[itsrobert]

17. Seeing how this isn't Newsweek or Time

Nice amateur effort.

[stray cat]

21. Its a difference of opinion about what constitutes a life -

However, the term murder is obscenely inflammatory - killing another would be more fitting - much like self defense involves killing someone but not murder.

[PeaceNikki]

24. I agree with you 100%.

As I said, I understand that there is a very deep very real moral quandary for those who believe it's wrong. And I also believe that calling it murder is obscenely inflammatory. It immediately turns the conversation unreasonable in my opinion.

[Cowpunk]

129. Not just unreasonable, idiotic.

This is why most of your higher up pro-birthers don't go there, though many still claim to be fighting for "equal rights", which leads us right back to "abortion is murder". They'll never admit it, though. Total cerebral disconnect.

[Kitty Herder]

117. It's a difference of opinion about what constitutes a human being.

There are many forms of "life" that fundies have no compunctions about killing--yeast, bacteria, cows, etc.

The real question is this: Are women human or are they just incubators? For centuries, Christians argued that women were not truly human. I think the anti-choice attitudes of many Christians are a legacy of that belief. What right does an incubator have to refuse to do its job? After all, it might be incubating a real human, a man. Obviously, the life of that potential human being is more important than the life of the incubator!

If everyone saw women as fully human, entitled to all the rights that implies and capable of making decisions for themselves, there would be little debate about this subject. No human should ever be forced to incubate anything or anyone.

[lib_wit_it]

29. When the "Pro-lifers" start protesting the deaths caused by the lack of health care in this country,

then I'll consider taking them seriously. When they acknowledge that social and economic injustice causes countless deaths, then we can talk.

[PeaceNikki]

30. As I said elsewhere, it's not just the Republicans.

http://www.floridadfla.org/?s=moral-and-ethical-obligation-to-the-unborn

[lib_wit_it]

65. Yeah, well, as we know, Dems can be hypocritical and thick, as well. Especially those damn dogs.

[femrap]

33. Yesterday in the parking lot of

Trader Joe's, I saw a minivan with the bumper sticker 'Equality for unborn women.'

I didn't have any paper with me because I so wanted to leave a note on the windshield: 'And inequality starts at birth.'

What stupid people. I now have paper, pen and clipboard in my car!!! I want to have some free speech too.

[Odin2005]

38. They are not "Pro-Life", they are Pro-Forced-Birth.

If they were pro-life they would make sure all those kids have all their needs met. Fucking hypocrites, they only care about people BEFORE they are born!

[Terra Alta]

39. My opinion on the abortion issue...

If you're against abortion.. then don't freaking have one!! How hard is that to comprehend? :shrug:

[dysfunctional press]

73. some people's religion tells them that it's murder- and they have a moral obligation to protect...

the 'innocent life'.

so- while what you're saying makes sense- it's meaningless to people with that mindset.

[Lars39]

86. Those are the people that don't recognize women as human beings

with the right of self-determination. They always see women as being lesser beings than men.

[dysfunctional press]

92. that IS what their religions teach them.

[Lars39]

95. And it goes contrary to our constitution.

They're changing the laws to suit their religion.

[dysfunctional press]

102. nope- the era never passed.

[Initech]

41. Oh god one time I was going to Home Depot and this freeper fucktard...

Was driving around in this huge truck with a huge display on it that had graphic pictures of dead babies saying "abortion is murder" and on one side of it had pictures of two gay people kissing saying that homosexuality was evil. And this was in a parking lot where children were present. He didn't do anything, he just drove around the parking lot for a couple of hours. I had my phone out ready to call the cops on the fucker but he started to drive off. I gave him the finger instead.

[shimmergal]

57. Sounds like the truck guy

was a poster boy for illogical thinking!

If he's so opposed to abortion, why the &*%$# doesn't he understand that gay kissing (or any homosex) is a foolproof way to avoid its necessity? What's wrong with his brain?

Sorry. Don't mean to make light of either gays or pro-choice women (I'm one of these myself.) It just strikes me as a ridiculous position, getting so bent out of shape against both.

[Initech]

60. I like George Carlin's argument:

"You ever notice that the people who are against abortion are also against homosexuality? Well who has less abortions than homosexuals? You'd think these two groups would make natural allies."

[Robyn66]

138. The Great George Carlin also said

"Did you ever notice that the women who are against abortion are women you wouldn't want to fuck in the first place!"

[unabelladonna]

62. well said

and thank you. many young women don't realize what it was like before women could obtain a legal abortion. i will never, ever equate a fetus with the life of a living, breathing woman.

[PeaceNikki]

68. These people don't equate a fetus with a woman, they put a greater value on the fetus

than the life of the woman.

It's sick, really.

[Piwi2009]

64. Nah! The word murder is meant for somebody else.

The prolickers want to hurl a damning, stinging indictment of pro choice people when they go around hollering MURDER! It's meant for democrats, liberals, feminists, atheists, anyone they don't like.

However, when confronted with an actual woman who aborted (like the repentent ones who show up at the big Life Rally every Jan. 22), they're careful to keep their big mouths shut about abortion being murder, and women who do it oughta be in jail. Man, that must be murder on the nerves.

[progressoid]

66. I'll rec this one too.

[Gregorian]

69. My thought on why conservative types have a problem with abortion

They have a problem with the notion that someone doesn't want to give birth to a child. It has nothing to do with abortion. It's about mentality. It is my observation that conservatives have more children than liberals do. And their sense of freedom is really a sense of being free to do anything they want without question. In a sense it's about their guilt. They know better, and don't want to be told.

I've actually forgotten what brought me to this concept. And I've taken it further in this post than I ever have before. The last part is open to deletion, if it goes beyond reasonable.

[intheflow]

70. K&R!

Thank you, Nikki! I think many of the people who yell this kind of hyperbole don't actually see it like murder murder, because I doubt few of them would suggest a woman who had an abortion should go to jail. They're trying to get women to change their minds and pop out babies regardless of their personal stories, they don't take into account personal situations--or that the woman's life should supersede a fetus life, which of course it should.

[Cowpunk]

71. So should women who get abortions be put to death?

...or merely given life in prison as a punishment?

This is the question I always ask of anyone who claims that abortion is murder, or that a fetus has the same rights as a person living outside the womb. The answers I get clearly expose the idiocy of their views.

[dysfunctional press]

72. you have your opinion, and they have theirs...

and in a free country- you each have an equal right to your own.

[PeaceNikki]

74. Yes, I said that. The whole point of the OP was discussing the use of the word "murder"

It's an emotional, judgmental, accusatory, illogical, inaccurate use of the term and I am bothered by its use. Especially and most notably by self-proclaimed Democrats. I am not alone.

[dysfunctional press]

78. and in their opinion it IS murder. and they have every right to use the word.

and they will NEVER stop using it- so you might as well get used to it. :shrug:

[PeaceNikki]

83. And I won't get used to it. I have a right to tell them they are wrong.

[dysfunctional press]

91. that's definitely your prerogative...

for all the good it will do...:shrug:

[PeaceNikki]

97. Yup. fat lotta good it does them to use that shit term.

[dysfunctional press]

105. well- it seems to bother you...

they thrive on getting under people's skins.

don't let them.

[Cowpunk]

88. True, however...

They should be able to back up what they are saying with an argument that makes some sense to someone who made it past kindergarten. This isn't just a matter of semantics. Murder is a legal term. If they want to call abortion murder, then they need to own up to the fact that they are either calling for women who get abortions to be tried for murder, or they believe murder should go unpunished. If they refuse to admit one of those two things, then there is absolutely no common sense or logic in what they are prescribing.

[dysfunctional press]

93. they consider it the wrongful taking of an innocent human life.

i.e. murder.

[PeaceNikki]

96. And I consider them illogical, accusatory and judgemental pricks.

As long as we're clarifying matters.

[dysfunctional press]

101. and that's your prerogative as well.

it is a free country after all.

and i think it's pretty obvious how they feel about women who get abortions(except for when it's their own wives or daughters, of course.)

[noiretextatique]

113. really? i doubt it

read "The only Moral Abortion in My Abortion." it's about when so-called pro-lifers choose to have abortions.

[dysfunctional press]

115. are you saying that they DO treat their own wives and daughters as sinful murdering sluts...?

when they have abortions?

[noiretextatique]

140. um no...i am saying all their sanctimony magically disappears

when they or a loved one needs an abortion....the anti-choice types. they will be on the anti-choice picket line the next fucking day after availing themselves of a legal medical procedure, screaming at women who made the same decision they did. fucking hypocrites.

[Cowpunk]

103. And most of them think the "murderer" should get away with it.

By law, if someone hires a person to commit murder, then they are both guilty of murder. If we were to codify abortion as murder, then at the very least the pregnant woman would be guilty of conspiracy to commit murder. And what about the "abortion pill", which allows the woman to perform the abortion herself, with only a prescription? Would that not make her guilty of murder? I have never heard a pro-birther explain away this massive hole in their murder/equal rights argument.

There are also those who won't call it murder but still argue that fetuses should have "equal rights". They are equally deluded. This is just another form of the "abortion is murder" argument, though they will never admit it. If a fetus has rights equal to a living person, than killing one is murder. You don't have to be a lawyer to figure this stuff out. You do have to have a shred of intellectual honesty.

[dysfunctional press]

104. tell that to dr. tiller's widow.

[Cowpunk]

108. Nice deflection.

:hide:

[dysfunctional press]

114. deflection...?

you seem to imply that they don't believe in holding the abortion doctors responsible-

and the facts don't necessarily bear that out...:shrug:

[Cowpunk]

120. Did you actually read my comment?

If you did, then you should damn well know I was referring to pregnant women who get abortions, and the fact that these women must be held culpable if abortion is truly murder.

Of course pro-birthers want to punish abortion doctors. That's completely beside the point. If you persist with this nonsense, I'm done here.

[dysfunctional press]

123. the ones i've seen want the women to be punished as well...

even moreso sometimes...that's probably why i was confused by what you meant.
sorry, my bad. :hi:

[Cowpunk]

126. No problem. NT

[ItNerd4life]

75. What if the father still wants the child?

I understand, please don't get me wrong. I believe abortion should be legal up to the end of 3 months.

To me, it's a woman and the father's choice. If they can't agree and the woman has an abortion, the father may consider it murder.

[PeaceNikki]

76. Murder is a legal definition. The father's desires are not a factor.

It's a legal medical procedure and not murder.

[Kitty Herder]

119. When he has to host it in his body, then he can make the choice.

No one, not even the father, has the right to tell anyone that she must allow something to grow inside her body, using her body's resources, making her ill. He can consider it murder all he wants. That doesn't make it so.

[KamaAina]

77. My particular favorite is when they compare abortion to the Holocaust

:puke:

[LastNaturalist]

80. Then what would you call it?

You are terminating a dependent life. Is terminating a better synonym than murder? Not trying to start a big argument, but I am a pro-life Democrat.

[PeaceNikki]

84. It's a legal medical procedure.

[LastNaturalist]

85. ...Where a dependent life is killed/ terminated/ murdered/ halted,

Choose your wording it's the same thing. But it is a living organism, albeit as I've said, a dependent one.

[PeaceNikki]

87. It's not murder.

Calling it that is over-emotional, accusatory and illogical.

A plant is also a living organism. I am not often told I murder my cilantro at harvest time.

[LastNaturalist]

99. So you're comparing an organism with five senses with an asparagus?

Okay...

It's murder.

[PeaceNikki]

100. Your concern is noted.

[CTyankee]

90. The problem here is that if you DO call it murder then you have to be logical

and also say that the woman getting the abortion is a murderer. Furthermore, she has planned the murder in advance and has employed a hired killer to murder her fetus. Therefore, she has committed premeditated murder. To my knowledge, no state in the union would simply try and convict the hired killer and not try and convict the person premeditating a murder. Until a prolifer is willing to say that the woman should be fully prosecuted along with doctor for the abortion he is not being logical. I have never heard a prolifer EVER say that. They back away from it. Why?

Another problem is with the definition of murder in the first place. Try as they may, the so called pro lifers have been unable to redefine a fetus as a person for the purpose of equating the termination of fetal life with murder in the law. Attempts at constitutional amendments have failed repeatedly. So prolifers are left with an attentuated argument at best...

[Raster]

98. No. You're an anti-choice Democrat.

[treestar]

82. Not that they will listen, but use the legal definitions

Abortion was once a crime. It was not prosecuted as murder, but as abortion. It was differentiated in the common law. You could try explaining that to them, but they are probably not interested in legal logic.

But the two terms did have different legal meanings. The problem is by saying that they are trying to inflame, and who among those who see it that way would calmly admit they are two different things - that's not what they are trying to do. What they would say if they were rational and calm would be they want abortion to be illegal - a crime - once again. That is what they really logically want.

[Raster]

89. Abortion is a lawful and valid medical procedure that is between a woman, her doctor and those

persons SHE DEEMS GERMAINE to the discussion. Period. End of story. Line in the sand. A woman's right to the sanctity of her body and the right to her reproductive freedom must never be violated. Never.

[noiretextatique]

116. thank you

and a big fuck you to all those who fail to grasp this very simple reality.

[Raster]

121. I am right there with you!!!

[Cowpunk]

125. I find that view just as extreme as the "abortion is murder" argument

If I get you right, you are saying that the rights of a fetus must never be weighed against the rights of the pregnant woman. I think that's farther than the vast majority of Americans are willing to go. I find it completely amoral, but hey, I'm a guy, so who cares.

[Cowpunk]

128. Let me restate that.

I misconstrued your argument somewhat. You say it's up to the pregnant woman and her doctor to weigh such concerns. If this be the case, then a fetus has no rights at all, so I wasn't too far off base. My criticism still stands.

[PeaceNikki]

130. Tell us, what rights does a fetus have?

[Cowpunk]

131. Can I assume you are asking my personal opinion?

The laws concerning this are quite muddy so let's stick to my personal views. Since the fetus is dependent on and trapped inside the mother all you've really got are the rights to life and "security of person". I believe these rights begin at the time the fetus becomes viable, and become stronger vis a vis the mother's rights the closer it gets to birth. I realize this is something very hard to codify in law, and I'm not even sure it's possible. My point here is that to arbitrarily deny the state's interest in an unborn child's welfare is wrong. You are trying to simplify into black and white terms a very complex ongoing debate, which I find annoying and rather callous no matter what side of the issue you may be on. This is a debate that should continue as technology changes and we continue to learn more about human physiology.

[PeaceNikki]

132. Where have I personally tried to " simplify into black and white terms"?

Read my posts in this thread. In fact, the OP was written with the exact opposite tone. Resorting to calling it "murder" when it's not over-simplifies and is legally inaccurate. It shuts down the conversation because it immediately tells me that the person is speaking only from a place of emotional over-reaction and not logic. It's used to pass judgement and "shock" someone into seeing the HORROR behind it.

ETA: I find your painting me as "annoying and rather callous" to be "annoying and rather callous".

[Cowpunk]

134. Whoa, hold on there.

I answered your question and then restated my criticism of Raster, which you seemed to be challenging.

[Cowpunk]

135. Sorry, I did use the word "you". My bad.

[Robyn66]

94. A member of my family had to make that very very difficult choice

It was agonizing for her. It was not something she wanted to do, or under better circumstances she would have done but it was something that had to happen because of where she was in her life and having a child would be irresponsible.

The worst part of the whole thing is these anti-choicers act like you just skip in without a care in the world on your way going shopping to have an abortion and just go on with your life like nothing happened. They are such cold bastards.

[Vidar]

106. K&R.

[mdmc]

133. peace

..

[Major Hogwash]

136. Peace through understanding.

Okay, who wants to lead off with the first stanza of Khumbayya now?

[Omaha Steve]

137. Lots of guys are against it

So then they don't have to have one. Need I say more?

Why don't the anti crowd spend more time with abused or unwanted kids that are here????