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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 08:30 PM Original message |
I hate the way the term "Life" is used in discussions involving abortion and stem-cell research. |
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Sinistrous (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 08:55 PM Response to Original message |
1. Very interesting insight.. n/t |
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PeaceNikki (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 08:59 PM Response to Original message |
2. As I said elsewhere... |
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immoderate (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:55 AM Response to Reply #2 |
79. You got it. Mildew is life... |
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paulsby (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 09:35 PM Response to Original message |
3. i think that's rubbish |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 09:38 PM Response to Reply #3 |
4. You obviously did not understand my post. |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 09:46 PM Response to Reply #4 |
7. Please explain how he is biologically illiterate. |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 09:51 PM Response to Reply #7 |
11. he said that gametes are not human life. That is FACTUALLY incorrect. |
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paulsby (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 09:56 PM Response to Reply #11 |
14. gametes have 23 chromosomes |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 09:58 PM Response to Reply #14 |
16. So how do you define "human life" or "human lives"? Or do you have me on ignore? |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 09:59 PM Response to Reply #14 |
17. They are HAPLOID human lives, but biologically they are still human lives. |
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paulsby (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:05 PM Response to Reply #17 |
24. you are conflating two issues |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:09 PM Response to Reply #24 |
28. A gamete is not a member of H. Sapiens? WTF are you smoking? |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:13 PM Response to Reply #28 |
31. So you are arguing that life begins at the egg and sperm stage? The Catholic argument, interesting. |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:16 PM Response to Reply #31 |
33. I am saying there is no "life/non-life" break point. |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:20 PM Response to Reply #33 |
35. Clearly the Courts disagree with you. |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:22 PM Response to Reply #35 |
39. Courts can change scientific facts? |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:24 PM Response to Reply #39 |
40. And you think an egg is universally recognized scientifically as a viable human life? mmkay. |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:26 PM Response to Reply #40 |
43. It's a genetically unique HAPLOID human indivudual. |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:28 PM Response to Reply #43 |
45. It is not a viable human life which is what the abortion argument is about. |
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:11 PM Response to Reply #43 |
101. Because the First Rule of Righ-Wing Trolling is... |
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paulsby (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:25 PM Response to Reply #39 |
42. it's as much a semantics argument as it is a scientific one |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:27 PM Response to Reply #42 |
44. Didn't I just HAVE this discussion. You STILL don't get it! |
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paulsby (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:31 PM Response to Reply #44 |
49. no, you don't get it |
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HiFructosePronSyrup (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 06:06 PM Response to Reply #14 |
108. What kind of life are they? |
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paulsby (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 09:52 PM Response to Reply #7 |
13. maybe because i didn't use the |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 09:57 PM Response to Reply #13 |
15. Let's simplify this, unless you'd rather just snark... |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:01 PM Response to Reply #15 |
18. because they don't have a SOUL! DUH!!! *SARCASM* |
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paulsby (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:04 PM Response to Reply #15 |
22. well, among other things |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:09 PM Response to Reply #22 |
27. I did not bring up the torah, but copy/pasted what you wrote |
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paulsby (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:31 PM Response to Reply #27 |
48. sorry, i was confusing you with the OP |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:43 PM Response to Reply #48 |
56. "personhood is more than just being a human life." |
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tnlefty (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:52 PM Response to Reply #48 |
59. Sorry, a fertilized egg has the capacity for life, but it isn't... |
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paulsby (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 11:51 PM Response to Reply #59 |
62. you can be convinced of whatever you want |
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tnlefty (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 05:49 PM Response to Reply #62 |
106. If it makes you feel good? |
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paulsby (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 06:05 PM Response to Reply #106 |
107. except that's wrong |
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tnlefty (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 10:36 PM Response to Reply #107 |
111. No, it breathes, urinates, takes care of it's own waste, but needs |
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stray cat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 09:51 PM Response to Reply #4 |
12. The biology is completely sound - the diploid fetus has all the components required as a human being |
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JonQ (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:02 PM Response to Reply #4 |
21. No, he wasn't wrong |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:12 PM Response to Reply #21 |
30. A gamete is a genetically unique HAPLOID human individual |
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JonQ (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:21 PM Response to Reply #30 |
36. "There are many organisms where both phases are free-living organisms" |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:25 PM Response to Reply #36 |
41. That still doesn't change the fact that gametes are genetically unique HUMAN indivduals. |
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JonQ (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:29 PM Response to Reply #41 |
46. A liver cell contains the full DNA content of a human being |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:34 PM Response to Reply #46 |
51. Of a DIPLOID human being |
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JonQ (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:35 PM Response to Reply #51 |
52. A haploid cell is a dead end |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:39 PM Response to Reply #52 |
55. All but a handful of your cells are a dead end, too. |
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JonQ (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 11:01 PM Response to Reply #55 |
61. Meh |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 09:49 PM Response to Reply #3 |
9. Define "life" please? That seems to be the purpose of this thread and one of the issues about aborti |
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nemo137 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 09:39 PM Response to Original message |
5. Huh. I hadn't thought about haploid vs. diploid. |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 09:43 PM Response to Original message |
6. What does mental capacity have to do with it? |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 09:50 PM Response to Reply #6 |
10. The anti-choicers like to exaggerate the sentience of 2-month-old fetuses. |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:02 PM Response to Reply #10 |
20. What is so important about the 8 week mark? |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:08 PM Response to Reply #20 |
26. The claim is that the nervous system is functioning and so abortion is infanticide or some such BS. |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:09 PM Response to Reply #26 |
29. So you have research that shows that the nervous system doesn't function before birth? LOL. |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:19 PM Response to Reply #29 |
34. I never said that. |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:21 PM Response to Reply #34 |
38. So you are equating eating meat to killing a full term child that has yet to be born? |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:29 PM Response to Reply #38 |
47. Not, with aborting. a 3-4 month-old fetus |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:32 PM Response to Reply #47 |
50. Why does it matter? |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:36 PM Response to Reply #50 |
53. Because killing a sapient being wihout just cause is murder. |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:48 PM Response to Reply #53 |
58. That's ridiculous. No sane person would say killing a 2 day old child wasn't murder. |
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Lyric (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:05 AM Response to Reply #58 |
65. Nobody said anything ABOUT a 2-day-old child. Hello? |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:35 AM Response to Reply #65 |
70. Odin decided being sapient was relevant to the discussion. Try and keep up. |
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Lyric (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:43 AM Response to Reply #70 |
71. It is relevant because the anti-choicers wish to falsely portray embryos as sapient |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:46 AM Response to Reply #71 |
73. Newborns aren't sapient that's my point. |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 09:08 AM Response to Reply #73 |
98. They're not? |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:09 PM Response to Reply #98 |
99. No more capable of acting upon judgements than a fetus just before delivery. |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 03:33 PM Response to Reply #99 |
102. And late-term fetuses are never aborted except in cases of deformation or health emergency. |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 03:38 PM Response to Reply #102 |
103. That is almost always true now. |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 04:31 PM Response to Reply #103 |
105. It's because of another illogical argument used by anti-choicers. |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 08:43 PM Response to Reply #105 |
110. Your attempts to oversimplify a very complex issue have failed. |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:21 AM Response to Reply #58 |
66. Who is talking about a 2 day old child? You aren't tracking well tonight |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:31 AM Response to Reply #66 |
68. Odin decided being sapient was relevant to the discussion. Try and keep up. |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:47 AM Response to Reply #68 |
74. Nothing about a 2 day old child though, you threw that in. T.a.k.u. yourself |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:48 AM Response to Reply #74 |
75. Because newborns aren't sapient either. That was my point. |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:53 AM Response to Reply #75 |
78. sapience:the ability of an organism or entity to act with judgment? |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:56 AM Response to Reply #78 |
80. 2 day olds are as capable of acting upon judgements as a fetus immediately before delivery. |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:59 AM Response to Reply #80 |
82. and? |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 01:03 AM Response to Reply #82 |
84. That both are sapient or neither are. |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 01:06 AM Response to Reply #84 |
85. The effort to re-classify embryos as comperable to a newborn is |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 01:08 AM Response to Reply #85 |
87. Again somehow back to this magical 8 week mark. Why is it relevant? |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 01:14 AM Response to Reply #87 |
89. There are no "magical marks" but dates chosen as boundaries for embryo vs fetus, |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 01:16 AM Response to Reply #89 |
91. Abortions often don't happen within 8 weeks so why does it matter? |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 01:29 AM Response to Reply #91 |
93. ru486 can be used up to 8 weeks and yes, abortions DO happen in that time |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 01:36 AM Response to Reply #93 |
95. I didn't say they never happened I said they often don't. |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 09:06 AM Response to Reply #66 |
97. That poster seems to have trouble getting the point. |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:10 PM Response to Reply #97 |
100. Just because you have trouble understanding the point doesn't mean I had trouble getting there. |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:45 PM Response to Reply #29 |
57. Odin never said that, was talking about 8 week embryos |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:52 PM Response to Reply #57 |
60. Do he or you have research that shows that an 8 week embryos nervous system isn't functioning? |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:25 AM Response to Reply #60 |
67. Odin says "The claim is that the nervous system is functioning and so abortion is infanticide" |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:34 AM Response to Reply #67 |
69. I was hoping he would clarify. He chose not to though. I don't know why he chose a vegan rant... |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:49 AM Response to Reply #69 |
76. What "vegan rant"? |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:50 AM Response to Reply #76 |
77. Post # 34 Hard to believe you could have missed it. |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:58 AM Response to Reply #77 |
81. Thank you, I did miss it. As difficult as that may be to believe, do miss things |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:59 AM Response to Reply #81 |
83. You are quite thorough. It is late though. |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 01:07 AM Response to Reply #83 |
86. hoping for a quiet night. |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 01:10 AM Response to Reply #86 |
88. I only wish. My dad's been in the hospital for about 2 months this year, I'm staying with him. |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 01:15 AM Response to Reply #88 |
90. I am sorry. I much prefer being on the provider side than the family side. |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 01:21 AM Response to Reply #90 |
92. Many thanks. Fighting 3 PE's right now. My brother probably saved his life. |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 01:32 AM Response to Reply #92 |
94. I REALLY hate ear thermometers. They are fast, but can be very |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 01:37 AM Response to Reply #94 |
96. It was an oral thermometer she wasn't really paying attention and barely had it in his mouth. |
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stray cat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 09:49 PM Response to Original message |
8. Maybe we don't have to respect any kind of life? After all a plant is alive as well. |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:02 PM Response to Reply #8 |
19. Nature is Pro-Choice . . . so I think there is a difference . . . |
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Manifestor_of_Light (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 12:45 AM Response to Reply #19 |
72. Then why is early miscarriage so common?? |
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Fire_Medic_Dave (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 03:39 PM Response to Reply #72 |
104. Do you have a source for those miscarriage rates? |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 11:32 PM Response to Reply #72 |
113. Why wouldn't you recognize a natural miscarriage as "pro-choice" . . . |
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uppityperson (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:05 PM Response to Original message |
23. I ask what the definition of "life" is to those using it. |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:21 PM Response to Reply #23 |
37. They attack you because the real reason is the belief that zygotes have "souls". |
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defendandprotect (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:06 PM Response to Original message |
25. I think the main focus should be on "Pro-Life" Murders of doctors . . . |
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Vattel (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:14 PM Response to Original message |
32. Don't over-simplify a complex debate. |
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Nye Bevan (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 10:37 PM Response to Original message |
54. Not sure that the "lizard" argument really works |
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EndersDame (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 11:57 PM Response to Original message |
63. I think it cheapens life to equate a lump of cells smaller than a rice krispy with a child |
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janx (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Sun Dec-13-09 11:59 PM Response to Original message |
64. This is a case of religion. |
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Kitty Herder (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 06:12 PM Response to Original message |
109. I'm glad you re-posted this. |
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Odin2005 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore | Mon Dec-14-09 11:16 PM Response to Reply #109 |
112. Thanks! |
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