kristopher
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Tue Dec-15-09 01:37 AM
Original message |
Would you support a DU ban on climate change denialist posts? |
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The evidence is incontrovertable - climate change is real, of human origin, and an incredibly urgent problem that must be dealt with.
The fossil fuel interests have worked mightily since the Rio Earth Summit in 1992 to create a network of think tank produced propaganda that is designed to do one thing and one thing only - stop action on climate change that will hurt business for fossil fuels interests.
All the denial debate is based on phony arguments that have no place at the table with science - they are the spear-point of a political campaign targeting scientific illiterates and masquerading as a debate over science.
I believe there should be no tolerance for this line of "questioning" at DU.
Questions about how we address the problem are routinely derailed as this strategy of the right is successfully employed.
We NEED to have a discussion about energy policy that isn't constantly being deflected by manufactured crisis such as stolen, inconsequential emails being trumpeted as one more bogus "proof" that the left is out to "steal the freedom" of every dipshit right wingnut and turn American into the "socialist" country we've apparently always wanted.
I would prefer an outright ban with a pizza for anyone violating it more than twice. But, at the very least, I'd suggest a "special thread" where this tripe can be consigned to oblivion.
It is a matter of freedom of speech - the freedom to conduct meaningful discussion without disruption by actors with nefarious intent.
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Onceuponalife
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Tue Dec-15-09 01:40 AM
Response to Original message |
1. No, I wouldn't be in favor of censoring ideas. |
kristopher
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Tue Dec-15-09 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #1 |
3. No ideas would be censored - it is manufactured tripe. |
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It is well documented campaign of disinformation. Nothing more.
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timeforpeace
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Wed Dec-16-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #3 |
92. Didn't Orwell predict this OP? |
parasim
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Tue Dec-15-09 01:41 AM
Response to Original message |
2. Ban? Why ban? Discuss! |
LoZoccolo
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Tue Dec-15-09 01:44 AM
Response to Original message |
4. DU already has pages and pages of rules which have been dipped in ass and fail sauce. |
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Seriously, it's a magnanimous joke and confirms the worst stereotypes of liberals. People need to learn how to take responsibility for their disagreement with certain ideas instead of running to mommy. If a person cannot control themselves and pisses themselves every time they see climate change denial bullshit, or any other bullshit, they should stay off of DU.
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natrat
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Tue Dec-15-09 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #4 |
44. problem is, after a while it becomes bullshit underground |
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so sifting through mostly bullshit may be an intellectual challenge it is more a waste of time
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closeupready
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Tue Dec-15-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #4 |
54. Or employ the ignore user function. |
Swamp Rat
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Tue Dec-15-09 01:45 AM
Response to Original message |
5. NO! I need the entertainment! |
Ichingcarpenter
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Tue Dec-15-09 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #5 |
6. No..... I enjoy the idiots and the debunking |
Johonny
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Tue Dec-15-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #5 |
AllentownJake
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Tue Dec-15-09 01:50 AM
Response to Original message |
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The strength of the evidence is enough of a response, if they are linking worldnetdaily to bolster their claim...well there are rules about that.
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Kaleva
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Tue Dec-15-09 01:58 AM
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snot
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Tue Dec-15-09 02:07 AM
Response to Original message |
9. Why not relegate them to their own, "special" basement, |
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like DU did with the 9-11 conspiracy theorists? Surely the latter's tinfoil's no thicker.
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Turborama
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Tue Dec-15-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #9 |
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Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 11:30 AM by Turborama
Climate Change denialism is definitely Conspiracy Theory material which deserves its own dungeon, or at the very least sent to the September 11 forum where all the other mind numbing hogwash ends up. Think about it, Glenn BecKKK and Alex Jones are two of the most vocal denialists out there, need I say more?
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burning rain
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Tue Dec-15-09 02:20 AM
Response to Original message |
10. The denialists are a treat, aren't they? |
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They can't wrap their heads around the simple fact of physics that carbon dioxide traps heat, and that humans have been vastly increasing carbon dioxide output. Come on, denialists! All you need is some very simple physics and the ability to follow a syllogism: carbon dioxide traps heat... humans generate lots more carbon dioxide... lots more heat if we keep it up!
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Hekate
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Tue Dec-15-09 02:23 AM
Response to Original message |
11. Actually, yes I would. It's RWnut propaganda, simple and evil, & I don't think we need... |
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... to have that false and lying "debate." It's not a debate, it's false equivalency, the way "Some people say Hitler killed 6 million Jews, and some people say it was only a hundred thousand." It's bullshit.
Hekate
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MH1
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Wed Dec-16-09 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #11 |
60. Thank you, well said. |
Goldstein1984
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Tue Dec-15-09 02:24 AM
Response to Original message |
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It wouldn't be very democratic or liberal.
I learn a lot when someone tosses an argument out that I haven't heard before and I have to go do research.
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aikoaiko
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Tue Dec-15-09 02:34 AM
Response to Original message |
13. I think it is more important that we demonstrate how to handle denialists than ban those posts. |
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Even if some of those posts are from disruptors.
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omega minimo
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Tue Dec-15-09 02:37 AM
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14. Would you support a ban on Racist and Misogynistic Bigot posts? |
kristopher
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Tue Dec-15-09 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #14 |
36. That type of post is already deleted because of content. |
omega minimo
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Tue Dec-15-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #36 |
Odin2005
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Wed Dec-16-09 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #36 |
73. You would be suprised what shit doesn't get deleted. |
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OM and I were getting infuriated by the sick posts of a few posters a few months ago, a lot of them being "rape victims were asking for it" posts.
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The Straight Story
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Tue Dec-15-09 02:37 AM
Response to Original message |
15. Only if I were a cult member and was afraid of other ideals (nt) |
name not needed
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Tue Dec-15-09 02:44 AM
Response to Original message |
16. No. At least now you can easily point out the idiots. |
Name removed
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Tue Dec-15-09 02:55 AM
Response to Original message |
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Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
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Ichingcarpenter
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Tue Dec-15-09 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #17 |
18. LOL! Case in point......"i believe global temperatures have gone down" |
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"in the last 4,5 years. how many models predicted that."
First work on your punctuation dude, and then your science, links and data and we can talk.
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Name removed
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Tue Dec-15-09 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #18 |
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Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
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Ichingcarpenter
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Tue Dec-15-09 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #24 |
26. You can't cherry-pick a micro-trend within a bigger trend, |
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The last 10 years are the warmest 10-year period of the modern record," said NOAA climate monitoring chief Deke Arndt. "Even if you analyze the trend during that 10 years, the trend is actually positive, which means warming."
The AP sent expert statisticians NOAA's year-to-year ground temperature changes over 130 years and the 30 years of satellite-measured temperatures preferred by skeptics and gathered by scientists at the University of Alabama in Huntsville.
Statisticians who analyzed the data found a distinct decades-long upward trend in the numbers, but could not find a significant drop in the past 10 years in either data set. The ups and downs during the last decade repeat random variability in data as far back as 1880.
Since 1998, temperatures have dipped, soared, fallen again and are now rising once more. Records kept by the British meteorological office and satellite data used by climate skeptics still show 1998 as the hottest year. However, data from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and NASA show 2005 has topped 1998. Published peer-reviewed scientific research generally cites temperatures measured by ground sensors, which are from NOAA, NASA and the British, more than the satellite data.
The recent Internet chatter about cooling led NOAA's climate data center to re-examine its temperature data. It found no cooling trend but a warming trend.
Try again denier
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clear eye
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Tue Dec-15-09 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #17 |
25. Yes. I see. Now I know to "ignore" this guy.. |
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I'm pretty good w/ ignores. Whenever a few other DUers are getting hot and bothered and frustrated on a thread, I don't see the offending posts. Otherwise I can read the entire thread. So I guess I'm pretty accurate at picking disrupters.
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Ichingcarpenter
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Tue Dec-15-09 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #25 |
Raine
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Tue Dec-15-09 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #25 |
30. He's already eating the granite |
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no need for ignore. :evilgrin:
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tavalon
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Tue Dec-15-09 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #17 |
29. Believe all you want, freedomfunds |
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You're gonna die with all the rest of us. You'll probably still be spouting this garbage with your last unbelievable breath.
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cali
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Tue Dec-15-09 04:19 AM
Response to Reply #17 |
31. links to evidence of that? |
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you believe doesn't cut it.
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Raine
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Tue Dec-15-09 03:06 AM
Response to Original message |
19. No, I disagree with that kind thought |
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how anyone can deny it I don't know but I'm not for banning it.
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Iggo
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Tue Dec-15-09 03:06 AM
Response to Original message |
20. Nope. Use 'Hide Thread' if you don't wanna see them. |
MH1
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Wed Dec-16-09 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #20 |
61. Hide thread doesn't stop good threads from being hijacked. |
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That is by far the biggest problem. And if all the knowledgeable and honest people use 'ignore' on the trolls, then you have threads filled with bullshit, giving the impression that on this forum there is some disagreement over climate change. When among Democrats there really isn't. (Well out in the wild, climate change denial probably ranks among Democrats about with gay-hating and being anti-choice. It exists but not as an accepted liberal position.)
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cabluedem
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Tue Dec-15-09 03:10 AM
Response to Original message |
21. Only if we also ban the pro-firearms proliferation discussions . Get the Gun forum off DU . nt |
amborin
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Tue Dec-15-09 03:16 AM
Response to Original message |
22. i sympathize, but maybe we can convince someone to consider the |
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undeniable evidence and see the reality of it?
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MH1
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Wed Dec-16-09 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #22 |
64. paid trolls cannot be 'convinced' |
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and whether they are the minority or majority of those the op is thinking of, I have no doubt there are at least one or two.
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amborin
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Wed Dec-16-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #64 |
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on DU, there is at least one denier troll
this individual seems to follow me around whenever i post something concerning global climate change...it's uncanny; the reply is so fast. must have some kind of software?
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proteus_lives
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Tue Dec-15-09 03:30 AM
Response to Original message |
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Censorship is never a good idea.
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tavalon
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Tue Dec-15-09 03:59 AM
Response to Original message |
27. No, I'm in favor of institutionalized mocking |
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It's almost as much fun as baiting trolls.
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SidDithers
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Wed Dec-16-09 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #27 |
earth mom
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Tue Dec-15-09 05:12 AM
Response to Original message |
32. Put the denial crap in it's own "climate change denial dungeon". |
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Hell, we aren't allowed to speak freely about how 911 was MIHOP or LIHOP. Great threads with great information about 911 are regularly stripped from GD and LBN and shown the September 11th dungeon.
Why should disinfo agents have free rein to spew their crap freely about global warming all over DU?! :grr:
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag
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Tue Dec-15-09 07:49 AM
Response to Original message |
33. Tempting, but... no. There's WAY worse things to ban. |
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Creationists.
Anti-choicers. (Especially those of the begins-at-conception, rape-victims-should-carry-to-term variety)
Birthers.
Religious bigots in general.
Fans of Joe Arpaio. (The one rabid right-wing Republican it's OK to be a fan of, apparently)
Consistent defenders of police brutality. (You know, those who always jump in in favor of the LEO side no matter how egregious and obvious the offense is.)
People who bat 1.000 on right-wingness, no matter the topic.
With all of the above stinking up the place, global warming denial doesn't even tip the scales.
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kristopher
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Tue Dec-15-09 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #33 |
39. Apples and oranges, no? |
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All of the things you've listed are either matters of opinion or, in the one exception from strict opinion (creationism) it is an annoying tip of the hat to the right of people to hold religious beliefs that are incongruent with reality.
Climate change and the consequent energy discussion are matters of objective scientific fact, not opinion.
None of the other topics have some of the largest industries on earth spending massive amounts of money on a network of think tanks and public relations companies that wage advertising and astroturf campaigns to disrupt and misinform the debate on energy.
There is no long term policy issue more important to the future of our nation and the planet than energy. What will happen over the next year is going to be pivotal, and the distribution and discussion of extremely valuable information is being *successfully* obstructed by the tactics of the deniers.
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MH1
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Wed Dec-16-09 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #39 |
Odin2005
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Wed Dec-16-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #33 |
76. There are Arpaio fans here!?! |
Spazito
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Wed Dec-16-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #76 |
81. There is at least one, that's for sure... |
cstanleytech
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Tue Dec-15-09 08:45 AM
Response to Original message |
34. Silencing dissenting views is just a bad idea in general. |
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If ya wanna really shut them up then come back at them and slap them down with facts and not opinions.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag
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Tue Dec-15-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #34 |
40. Then DU is a bad idea in general. |
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The rules say clearly that some opinions are inadmissible. Private premises -- owner's rules. Crying censorship is whiny crybabyism.
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Jim__
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Tue Dec-15-09 08:53 AM
Response to Original message |
35. No! The evidence is incontrovertible. |
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Any denial threads can be refuted with the evidence. No to censorship!
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bigwillq
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Tue Dec-15-09 08:54 AM
Response to Original message |
nadinbrzezinski
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Tue Dec-15-09 08:56 AM
Response to Original message |
38. No, they are entertaining at a tragic level |
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and this is the magic of the US, even ideas that are just plain out wrong... well you know the drill.
Now pointing and laughing and having a little social ridicule, by all means if that is your choice.
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rucky
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Tue Dec-15-09 10:42 AM
Response to Original message |
41. Nope. The responses always teach me something new. n/t |
NYC_SKP
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Tue Dec-15-09 11:13 AM
Response to Original message |
42. Not sure. They do provide a service in bringing to our attention articles/sources that need to be.. |
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quashed, avoided, debunked.
I rather like knowing where people are getting their "ideas".
And, members thus self-identify as possible trolls.
Additionally, if they aren't trolls, if they're just misinformed, then we have the opportunity to set the record straight.
Because, in the end, we don't need to change the minds of like-minded people, we need to bring more into the light.
:patriot:
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bemildred
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Tue Dec-15-09 11:14 AM
Response to Original message |
43. No, let them talk. nt |
NoGOPZone
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Tue Dec-15-09 11:23 AM
Response to Original message |
45. No, but I would support a DU ban on certain climate change denialists |
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whose names will not be mentioned.
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Unvanguard
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Tue Dec-15-09 11:24 AM
Response to Original message |
46. Yes. That kind of worthless nonsense should go. n/t |
wuushew
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Tue Dec-15-09 11:30 AM
Response to Original message |
49. All I know is the mods have been wimping out on the pizza delivery service |
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and forums like E/E suffer from it greatly.
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wuushew
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Tue Dec-15-09 03:42 PM
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NJmaverick
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Tue Dec-15-09 03:51 PM
Response to Original message |
51. Is there a need? I don't recall seeing all that many climate denier posts here on DU |
MH1
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Wed Dec-16-09 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #51 |
62. spend much time in E/E? |
AngryAmish
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Tue Dec-15-09 03:54 PM
Response to Original message |
52. Get their names, find out where they live, and cruash them |
closeupready
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Tue Dec-15-09 03:54 PM
Response to Original message |
53. No, I would not support that. |
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Despite your claim (and I happen to agree with you), it is not clear to me that everyone believes global warming is happening as a result of human activities. That is, there are conceivably people who are merely misinformed. A discussion board such as DU is a great place to persuasively impart facts to such people. I see no good purpose served in instituting such a rule.
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therealbarack
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Tue Dec-15-09 04:14 PM
Response to Original message |
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We can't censor thoughts like SOME people
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RobinA
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Tue Dec-15-09 04:19 PM
Response to Original message |
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on any discussion of religion, supreme being(s), witch doctory or any other of that lacking-a-shred-of-evidence hocus pocus.
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viscrente
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Wed Dec-16-09 08:28 AM
Response to Original message |
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Is it Climate Change deniers or people against "cap and trade." I don't see many CC deniers on DU. I think that Cap and trade is a whole other discussion. I think there are better ways for us Americans to be clean and curb our emissions. Besides... The best way to correct which is undoubtedly a scientific issue to to combat it with science... Seems like the government should be funding all kinds of new science and power stations such as nuclear, clean coal...etc.
As far as banning individuals... That is against all principles of civilized debate. You should hang your head in shame for suggesting it. Combat the belief not the one who posts it.
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MH1
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Wed Dec-16-09 08:34 AM
Response to Original message |
59. If DU bans posters who repeatedly claim that "homosexuality is a sin, gays should be executed" |
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"abortion is murder", "George W Bush was right to invade Iraq, they attacked us on 9/11"
then absolutely DU should ban the posters who appear to be paid shills for the petroleum industry (even if one or two actually aren't) as they constantly throw distractions and bullshit into otherwise worthwhile discussions of what to do about climate change.
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dysfunctional press
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Wed Dec-16-09 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #59 |
72. du DOESN'T ban posters who repeatedly say "abortion is murder"... |
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there are plenty of pro-life democrats too, you know. (btw- for the record, i'm NOT one of them- but they ARE entitled to their opinion, and they ARE entitled to voice it.)
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MH1
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Wed Dec-16-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #72 |
82. true, I shouldn't have included that. What of the other 2 examples I gave? |
dysfunctional press
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Wed Dec-16-09 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #82 |
90. as far as posts that say 'gays should be executed'- well...that should be pretty obvious... |
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as far as posts that say that fuckface was 'right to attack iraq' after 9/11- i'm not aware of any posts/posters along those lines being regularly deleted...:shrug:
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L0oniX
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Wed Dec-16-09 08:44 AM
Response to Original message |
63. Gawd ...that's a stupid idea. |
varelse
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Wed Dec-16-09 08:52 AM
Response to Original message |
66. No, because we can see the evidence supporting science on this forum |
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The deniers have so many other forums where intelligent opposition to their views either isn't presented at all, or is drowned out or shouted down by their many knuckle-dragging RW fans. It's nice to see the defenders of science win here - over and over again. I think it is beneficial for us to see and refute the arguments which prevent Americans from acting in the best interests of their own children, and people all over the world.
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TexasObserver
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Wed Dec-16-09 08:56 AM
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67. No, and I find the term "deniers" repugnant to a free exchange of ideas. |
Confusious
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Wed Dec-16-09 09:07 AM
Response to Original message |
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Keep ideas or opinions we don't want from being heard!
Yay! for freedom of speech! As long as it's the speech you want to hear.
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SidDithers
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Wed Dec-16-09 09:11 AM
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69. No, but ridicule is an entirely acceptable reply to them...nt |
dysfunctional press
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Wed Dec-16-09 09:20 AM
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71. absolutely not. It is a matter of freedom of speech. |
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get a fucking clue. :eyes:
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Odin2005
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Wed Dec-16-09 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #71 |
77. This is a privatly-owned site. |
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The 1st Amendment does not apply.
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dysfunctional press
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Wed Dec-16-09 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #77 |
78. and neither kristopher or you own it, either. |
Odin2005
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Wed Dec-16-09 09:38 AM
Response to Original message |
74. Yes. And this is a privately-owned site, so the 1st Amendment doesn't apply. |
xultar
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Wed Dec-16-09 09:39 AM
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nyc 4 Biden
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Wed Dec-16-09 09:49 AM
Response to Original message |
79. No, it's a useful way to identify trolls. n/t |
Laelth
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Wed Dec-16-09 09:53 AM
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80. No. I usually favor more speech rather than less, even if it's stupid speech. n/t |
Zavulon
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Wed Dec-16-09 10:13 AM
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83. No. I support letting the mods and admins making calls on a case-by-case basis. |
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I don't want to see ANY topic or stance banned by rule, except for obvious calls such as blatant support for Republican candidates.
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AngryOldDem
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Wed Dec-16-09 10:20 AM
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84. Nope, I can't support censorhship. Sorry. |
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Arguments should live or die on their own merits, and not be ignored altogether because some may disagree.
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Individualist
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Wed Dec-16-09 12:40 PM
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Orsino
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Wed Dec-16-09 10:28 AM
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85. Well, if the Democratic Party took climate change seriously, I would. |
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Since the party shows no particular urgency in dealing with the issue, however, denialist posts wouldn't seem to violate the spirit or letter of the board rules.
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snooper2
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Wed Dec-16-09 10:33 AM
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86. That would be like a ban on posts talking about CGI planes |
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Now what we do for fun/idle time if those folks were not allowed to vent :rofl:
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BennyD
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Wed Dec-16-09 11:01 AM
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87. Censorship is for those who fear. n/t |
kestrel91316
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Wed Dec-16-09 11:02 AM
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88. Yes. The denialists are paid trolls. |
slackmaster
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Wed Dec-16-09 11:06 AM
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89. This is the dumbest idea I have seen all day |
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Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 11:12 AM by slackmaster
The term "climate change denialist" is anything but clear. It potentially covers a broad spectrum from people who say the climate is on a cooling trend, to those who say that greenhouse gases released by human activity account for only a small fraction of the observed warming, to people who don't buy into the idea that runaway greenhouse warming will lead to the extinction of the human species if we don't take decisive action right now.
The real truth is likely somewhere on that continuum.
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WI_DEM
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Wed Dec-16-09 12:52 PM
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93. No, I don't believe in banning free speech even if I don't agree with it. |
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Fri Apr 26th 2024, 03:19 AM
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