The Plum Line: Howard Dean: “Kill The Senate Bill”

[madfloridian]

Howard Dean: “Kill The Senate Bill”

In a blow to the bill grinding through the Senate, Howard Dean bluntly called for the bill to be killed in a pre-recorded interview set to air later this afternoon, denouncing it as “the collapse of health care reform in the United States Senate,” the reporter who conducted the interview tells me.

Dean said the removal of the Medicare buy-in made the bill not worth supporting, and urged Dem leaders to start over with the process of reconciliation in the interview, which is set to air at 5:50 PM today on Vermont Public Radio, political reporter Bob Kinzel confirms to me.

The gauntlet from Dean — whose voice on health care is well respected among liberals — will energize those on the left who are mobilizing against the bill, and make it tougher for liberals to embrace the emerging proposal. In an excerpt Kinzel gave me, Dean says:

“This is essentially the collapse of health care reform in the United States Senate. Honestly the best thing to do right now is kill the Senate bill, go back to the House, start the reconciliation process, where you only need 51 votes and it would be a much simpler bill.”

Kinzel added that Dean essentially said that if Democratic leaders cave into Joe Lieberman right now they’ll be left with a bill that’s not worth supporting.

[Ozymanithrax]

1. Howad Dean is a wealthy man with Health Insurance...

So it won't hurt him if 50+ million continue to go without, and those with health care face bankruptcy due to catastrophic illness.

I have lost all respect for this man.

[madfloridian]

4. I don't think you get it.

:shrug:

[FLAprogressive]

7. I don't either.

[midnight]

15. I agree. I think this is the way it was designed to work out..... Lots of confustion.

Howard Dean accused of upsetting the "best deal" blah blah blah.....

[DURHAM D]

16. On another thread I just told this same poster -

that I thought he must have just awakened from a very long nap.

One really should try to catch up before they comment.

[Ozymanithrax]

22. Killing a bill and allowing the existing system to stand is immoral...

What that makes Dr. Dean is a rich man with health insurance who will not be affected by keeping our current system the same.

I do get it.

[laughingliberal]

31. This "reform" is no more moral than the current system. Fail nt

[Old Codger]

42. I hope

Or I imagine you must have an employer paid health insurance so you will not be forced by the mandate to buy any yourself so you don't care that the rest wil be forced to pay whatever the insurance companies decide to charge or face severe taxes and or jail time if they cannot afford it, you also seem to be good with the idea of giving the insurance industry a HUGE christmas gift and screwing the middle class (or what is left of that class).

[Carni]

89. I agree with you Old Codger

This is nothing more than a massive gift to the same jerks who have been screwing us (Insurance companies) How is this going to help the public?

[quiller4]

58. I agree. While the Senate Bill now doesn't have everything I want it will still

provide subsidized care for more than half of the currently uninsured. It does away with lifetime caps and takes care of pre-existing condition exclusions. Two years ago if such a bill passed, I would have done handstands. I've already contacted both of my senators to make sure they are on board. I disagree with Jane Hamsher and Dean on this one.

[FLAprogressive]

5. So you'd rather have half-assed health care "reform" instead of real reform?

Let's say some watered down shitty bill passes....the reform fails. The GOP and corporate Dems convince America that HCR is impossible. No HCR....ever.

[TheWraith]

20. There's no reform if we kill the bill, either. Period.

We do not get to start over.

[laughingliberal]

33. There's no reform if we pass this bill, either nt

[TheWraith]

72. Bullshit. No more pre-existing conditions. No dropping the sick.

No charging women more for the same coverage. No more lifetime caps on payouts. And on, and on...

[eridani]

84. But it's so wonderful that they are charging older people twice as much for the same insurance

Not to mention that the pre-existing conditons clause is not going to help those who will be denied coverage due to having a bad credit record.

[laughingliberal]

85. No, they're not. The current multiplier is 3. They will charge older people 3 times as much. nt

[Ozymanithrax]

30. Any reform, even covering just half an ass, is better than the system we have.

If we can cover some of the people without health care, we have accomplished something. If we just say no, Howard Dean will still be a rich man with health care, but my sister and mother will still not be able to afford anything.

[thunder rising]

37. His concern is noted. This guy is trolling for a flame war ... let it go.

[TheWraith]

9. I don't think that's entirely fair. Yes, we can't and don't want to kill the bill.

If we kill the bill out of a fit of pique, it means another 20 years of pre-existing conditions and the status quo. But Dean is reacting out of a desire to see a radical alteration to the business model of insurance, which isn't in this bill. It might still get done in reconciliation, but it's NOT going to be in this bill.

[Ozymanithrax]

34. You are absolutly right. All or nothing thinking...

will end up giving us nothing.

[coti]

12. Giving hundreds of billions of tax dollars to the insurance industry

isn't going to fix the system. In fact, it will only empower the insurance lobby further (with our own tax dollars!) and allow them to entrench themselves. I'm sorry, but Dean's right.

I'm for incremental progress, but this is a huge step backward.

[FLAprogressive]

14. but it's "reform" and it's a win for Obama. that's all that matters to some.

[TheWraith]

23. No it's not. Don't be absurd. nt

[Ozymanithrax]

36. It will cover people who are dying without insurance...

So I don't give hoot if it also proved money for Insurance companies.

All or nothing thinking will get 50+ million people more of nothing.

[SOS]

68. And what is the monthly premium for those people dying without insurance?

Have we ever heard a concrete number on this magical private insurance?

If the mandated private insurance is $500 a month, those 50 million people will still have nothing, other than the IRS making their lives even more miserable.
If they could afford private insurance rates, don't you think they would have bought a policy by now?

[laughingliberal]

21. 20 million of those without insurance now will still not have any with the current bill

and many who do get coverage under it will still go bankrupt after paying premiums and out of pocket costs. A horrible financial burden on the working and middle classes such as this bill represents will be easy enough to kill off after the American people are rendered poverty stricken by it and the Republicans regain the house. Not passing health care reform will lose our majorities in 2010. Passing this horrible bill will strip us of majorities (if we still have them) when the financial pain of it kicks in. It will be repealed as soon as there is a Republican majority in the House. There is already an effective opposition in the Senate. And, whenever the public gets wise to it, it will then insure Republicans in power as far as the eye can see.

Get them the hell back in there and do something the average person can see is helping them.

[laughingliberal]

28. self delete

posted wrong level

[AndyA]

25. The "anything is better than nothing" attitude has to stop.

The Senate bill is seriously flawed according to the latest information I've seen.

Dean isn't saying to kill it completely, he's just saying it's best to dump the Senate bill and start off with the House bill instead, because it's a better bill overall. And I would have to agree with him. Pelosi does a better job of controlling things than Reid does.

[Ozymanithrax]

43. To say it is better for 50+ million people to continue with nothing must stop...

Support for the status quo is wrong. I can not support the current system. We need some change, and a small increment is a small amount of good done.

[madfloridian]

45. The so-called change may be unaffordable for those who need it the most.

.

[AndyA]

56. NO ONE is saying to continue with nothing.

Did you read what I wrote?

The House bill is the better of the two bills. Dean suggests it is the one to move forward with at this point. Sheesh.

[Ozymanithrax]

66. If no Senate bill is passed, the house bill dies...

Next year is a midterm, and there will be no stomach to tackle something like this with every member of the house and one third of the Senate taking the maximum time off to run for office.

It is now or we wait for another 6 or 8 or 28 years.

I am not sure whether people calling for the Senate Bill to be killed realize this.

History shows that Obama, even if he is a 2 term presidents, will not revisit this again. This isn't something we should wait for. A small change for the good is better than the status quo.

[AndyA]

67. One thing's for certain: If this bill passes, or if nothing passes, Obama will be a ONE TERM

President. He is losing major support.

[Ozymanithrax]

81. I am not going to worry about 2012 until after the midterms in 2010...

We have no idea what the next 3 years will bring, or who will run against him in 2012. Passing a health care bill in the Senate is the important thing right now. Then it goes for reconciliation. Then we see if there are the votes for a final passage. Then, if it gets passed, it is signed. Then, we start looking at how we can improve the bill in 2 years, while moving on to the midterms.

[laughingliberal]

86. Sure, under this bill only 20 million of them will be left behind. The ones who get coverage will

still go bankrupt if they get seriously ill but, hey, anything beats nothing. Right?

[madfloridian]

44. Yes, it is a dangerous thing to accept just anything so easily.

That has become a pattern I think, to just accept what is offered.

This is apparently meant to enrich the coffers of the insurance companies with little regulation.

[thunder rising]

27. Walk very carefully around that statement ... Dean has done more for the Democrats than any other

person.

He got nearly every person in Vermont insured and he certainly knows what he's talking about.

Fkn noobs.

[phasma ex machina]

76. +1 "Dean has done more for the Democrats than any other person."

He has the shaft scars on his back side that prove it.

[laughingliberal]

47. This bill is not going to slow down medical related bankruptcies one bit. It may, in fact, increase

them.

[kirby]

48. Uh..

So you are saying that the Reid Senate Bill is going to insure those 50+ million and people will no longer face bankruptcy due to catastrophic illness? Uh, okay.

[Jax]

73. Still at it with your Howard hate on?

Went to your website, your writing is not very good.

[Maru Kitteh]

75. amen - Howard Dean doesn't have to worry about catastrophic loss and early death if something

befalls him.

[The Gunslinger]

79. This new Leibercare Bill won't help anything.

Scrap it it all and start over.

[laughingliberal]

87. We need to get that out there in the vernacular. Liebercare. It's brilliant nt

[eridani]

83. Nothing will change at all with this legislation--

--except that people will get to be impoverished by insurance companies before they ever have any health care expenses. Shitty, barely more than catastrophic, insurance does NOT protect you from bankruptcy. The majority of medically bankrupt people HAD INSURANCE!

[coti]

2. Totally agree. nt

[truedelphi]

3. Thanks Madfloridian. K & R.

I was just about to post this.

"Kill this damn bill before this bill continuies with the lousy broken system that is killing off us."

[midnight]

6. I suppose this will be explained away as the voter not understanding blah, blah

and that we are lucky that millions of dollars were spent, doing nothing, on this process...... And lots of hard working people in congress..... blah blah blah.....

[Generator]

8. Dean is not perfect but he's not immoral

like our current senate and president appear to be. I would never vote for these weasels again if you paid me hard cash.

[FLAprogressive]

10. K&R

[Liberty Belle]

11. I heartily agree.

Lieberman should be treated like the traitor that he has long been. Obama should denounce him and go to his district, and speak forcefully on the need for a bill that has a true public option and strengthening of Medicare. The President has been far too timid on this issue, which for most voters is the single most important issue of our times.

[Skinner]

13. There you go.

Reconciliation.

[AzDar]

17. K N R

:kick:

[Andy823]

18. Dean is right.

Without a public option, or a medicare buy in, there's not a lot left to be happy about. The insurance companies will have a "mandate" that everyone has to buy their insurance so they will be happy, but the people once again get the shaft!

[polichick]

19. Good to know what he's thinking about it - I agree it's best to kill the bill. nt

[Blasphemer]

24. Thank you!

Let's remember that he was supportive of the Medicare Buy-in compromise so it's not as though he has been an unwavering "purist". They are compromising away anything that puts pressure on the Death Insurance Industry. Simple as that.

[tsuki]

26. K&R.

[chill_wind]

29. Thanks for putting this up here. K & R.

[Faryn Balyncd]

32. K&R. Mandating purchase of overpriced insurance is not only a gift to Big Insurance, but to the GOP!

[madfloridian]

35. More from Greg Sargent at The Plum Line

"Dean had previously endorsed the Medicare buy-in compromise without a public option, saying that the key question should be whether the bill contains enough “real reform” to be worthy of progressives’ support. Dean has apparently concluded that the “real reform” has been removed at Lieberman’s behest — which won’t make it easier for liberals to swallow the emerging compromise."

[Marr]

38. Will the Democratic leadership sacrifice their political power to please their owners?

That's the question. I don't know what the breakdown is, but judging from the things I've been reading online and hearing, I think the Democrats are going to kiss their majorities good-bye with this bill. Possibly worse than '94.

These people are corrupt and arrogant-- but I don't know how stupid they are. In the long run, they stand to take a lot more money in bribes (ie, "campaign donations") if they actually have political power, so it may be in their interest to ditch this bill. We'll see.

I doubt they will, personally. Judging from the way they operated through the Bush years, I think they'll just wander along, servicing their Wall Street bosses and assuming the public has been nicely triangulated into a corner.

[laughingliberal]

88. Looks that way at this point, yes. nt

[TwilightGardener]

39. Is there some sort of guarantee of what would come out of reconciliation?

Would we get any insurance reforms? Is there a guarantee that Congress would even DO reconciliation anytime soon on any aspect of this bill? I still don't think it's a good idea to kill the bill. Just try to pass it and consider it "incomplete". Of course, if we don't have 60 votes for it AS IT STANDS NOW (not sure that we do), this whole point is moot.

[polichick]

40. Dean is still so respected by progressives - someone to keep in mind...

...if it turns out we need a primary challenger.

[beaglelover]

41. Thank you Howard Dean!!!! Big thumbs UP!! n/t

[Zodiak]

46. I agree.....kill this Senate piece of shit

I really wasn't all that thrilled with only the Medicare buy-in, but could perhaps see it as a good thing if I squinted my eyes. Now, it is just a floating turd...a blatant give-away to a bloated industry that contributes nothing. Flush it.

And flush Leiberman and every Democrat who grandstanded to cut off reform at some point in the process, as well. Where do these people get off playing games in the service of their conservative "ideology" (too much government?) when Americans are dying?

[laughingliberal]

49. I'm with Dean. Send this stinking pile of manure to the gabage dump it belongs in nt

[Jackpine Radical]

50. There is a simple test that will show you how good this plan is, and for whom.

Just watch what happens to insurance industry stocks. (Hint: They have already declared victory, even while poormouthing and whining about the Senate bill.)

[Faryn Balyncd]

53. If there was a stock for the American people, it would have tanked when the leadership caved

[laughingliberal]

54. Yep, people do ignore that.

[quiller4]

60. Have you been watching the ticker? Insurance stocks are down.

[Ignis]

51. ... Speaks for me.

Wouldn't it have been nice to have Dr. Dean as a member of the Cabinet? Ah well.

[closeupready]

52. I trust and respect him. If he says it's no good, it's no good.

n/t

[quiller4]

59. I trust him on some issues but he is too much of a purist for me.

Something is better than nothing especially when you are sick and cannot afford care.

[closeupready]

62. I think the calculus here is that Dean knows if

Obama can hold up this empty legislation and say, "we got it done!", then everyone will move on to another issue and no more reform will happen for 20 or 30 years. Meanwhile, the health insurance companies - some of whom are known to have dropped sick people from coverage for spurious reasons - will continue to behave selfishly in pursuit of money first, health care somewhere down the list.

Nobody should expect those without health insurance who are sick and cannot afford care to support Dean's call to kill the Senate bill. Obviously, they want and need care right now.

[cali]

64. No, Howard is not a purist. That's just absurd.

He is, however, an expert on healthcare.

[democrank]

55. Kicking for the good doc..

Thank you, Dr. Dean.

[democracy1st]

57. K & R

[David Zephyr]

61. I trust Howard Dean's political instincts on this issue. I hope we can have his interview to hear.

Here's hoping someone can get an audio of Dr. Dean's interview.

[cali]

63. here you go, David

Vermont edition is at 5:50. Just click and listen. If you can't, they're sure to have a podcast.

[David Zephyr]

69. cali, is there a link?

I'm dying to hear what he has to say.

If there's no link, can you let us know what he says? I'm stuck at my office working and can't get free.

Thank you ever so much.

[cali]

74. David, I'm such a dunce. My apologies. Here's the link.

http://www.vpr.net/listen/stream/

[David Zephyr]

77. Thank you for the link. Dean speaks for me. That's all I needed to hear.

Thanks a million.

He summed it all up for me.

His position is my position.

[WeDidIt]

65. That's it for me, then.

Anybody who votes in favor of this turkey has lost my vote.

[David Zephyr]

78. Yep.

Dean's position is my position. I hope enough of us stick together on this WeDidIt.

[madfloridian]

70. Here is the transcript and audio from VPR

http://www.vpr.net/news_detail/86681/

[optimator]

71. thanks

.

[chill_wind]

80. (FDL) He's not alone --

Progressives Return Fire, Demand to Kill the Bill

By: David Dayen Tuesday December 15, 2009 4:15 pm

(...)

But Dean is not alone in this opinion. The leaders of the Congressional Progressive Caucus in the House are saying basically the same thing. Raul Grijalva said today that he wouldn’t support the bill if it’s not fixed in conference, and added “since the Senate won’t use reconciliation, which only requires 51 votes, it doesn’t look promising for any real change.”

Lynn Woolsey went further on MSNBC right before President Obama spoke, saying that the lack of a public option will threaten Democratic efforts in 2010, and that “I don’t know that I could vote” for the Senate bill, which she said woud not accomplish competition to the private insurance companies. Woolsey even brought up the most nettlesome problem for those who want to pass this bill, taking direct aim at the individual mandate:



"No, insurance regulations are not enough. We should have a bill that includes all of that, but don’t call it health care reform, call it insurance company reform. We should have done that years and years ago, but at least we’ve stepped up to at least talk about it. But with all that in there, and the idea that the premiums can skyrocket, no what have we accomplished? We’ve told everybody they get to have health insurance, in fact they must have health insurance, but they won’t be able to afford it."


This is a very dangerous problem for the health care bill. . .

http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/12/15/progressives-return-fire-demand-to-kill-the-bill/


(link edit)

[Laelth]

82. k&r for the Good Doctor Dean. Kill the bill. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth