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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:02 AM
Original message
Now he's going to raise taxes???
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 08:10 AM by WeDidIt
OMFG!

That's it. Democrats have lost the majority, and the white house, for a generation.

Link to CNN Article:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/12/15/obama.debt.commission/index.html
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. Be specific, What taxes? Where did you hear this? n/t
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Just reported on CNN American Morning
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 08:06 AM by WeDidIt
He will issue an executive order to form a commission to study increasing taxes in order to balance the budget.

Sad.

Edited to add: CNN Just reported he will issue an executive order to form a commission to study increasing taxes in order to cut the deficit.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. Thanks for the link. It sounds like President Obama has been conned by Pete Peterson.
I seem to recall Raygun doing something like this and the results were
a doubling of Social Security taxes to the middle class and poor, and a tax decrease for the rich.

This Raygun bipartisan commission started the Social Security Trust fund that was suppose to ensure adequate funding for the baby boomers. Greenspan was the chairman of this commission and was later named Fed chair. It resulted in the baby boomers being the 1st generation to pay both for their parent's retirement and their own.

Funny how all those changes did nothing but line the pockets of the uber wealthy. And then.....Greenspan and Raygun borrowed the surplus revenue collected by Social Security and spent the money on other purposes--whatever the presidents and Congress decided, including more tax cuts for monied interests. How convenient.

I don't trust bipartisan commissions because they aren't elected officials and don't give a crap about the common man. They are rarely held accountable for their decisions and we the masses get to pay the bill.

This is being pushed by Peter G. Peterson a millionaire who is dying to get his hands on your social security. He is a rich man who wants only 2 classes in the US the uber wealthy (himself) and the abject poor. Can you say "free" trade economics?

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090302/greider
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. Do you really think that our long term fiscal picture is even remotely workable without tax
increases? I really want to see how you would make it work. I can help you out and tell you that it doesn't work.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. I'll tell you how we can fix it ....STOP THE FUCKING WARS. nt
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. The wars cost about 1.5% of GDP. Our long term structural deficit is about 5-6% of GDP.
Tell me where else you make it up.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. Link? So you are for the wars? ...and the spending for them? Nice.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Divide the war spending by GDP.
It's not that hard. War spending is about $200 billion a year. GDP is about $13 trillion (Use nominal GDP, not real GDP because military spending is in nominal dollars, not real dollars). Works out to 1.5%.

I am not for the war spending at all. You decided to avoid the debate by projecting some position on me I don't support. All I said is that you are going to have to do a lot better than 1.5% of GDP.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
59. What's there to debate? You'd rather accept taxes than cut back on spending.
1.5 % of GDP is not worth removing from the debt?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #59
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #66
76. Deleted message
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #24
52. But Total Defense Spending is much more,
1.5% of GDP is what the rest of the world is spending ON DEFENSE INCLUDING ANY TROOPS ANY OF THEM HAVE IN AFGHANISTAN. The 1.5% is the ADDITIONAL Costs to the US for these wars, over and above the cost to buy the actual planes, Tanks and guns being purchased as part of out overall defense budget.

More on the Defense Budget:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States
http://www.slate.com/id/2183592/pagenum/all/
http://payvand.com/news/07/apr/1192.html

Now, the last article point out a fact ignored by most commentators is that SOCIAL SECURITY HAS ALWAYS EITHER BROKE EVEN (The normal situation in the pre-Reagan era) OR produced a substantial SURPLUS. That Surplus is used to "buy" special Treasury Bonds (Restricted to the use of Social Security Administration) that permits the Federal Government to use that money for other purposes (Including Defense Spending). Any attack on Social Security (and the related Supplemental Security Income, SSI, Program) will have to address the issue that the TAXES being PAID in the form of SOCIAL SECURITY TAXES exceed the present and foreseeable future costs of Social Security (In the worse case scenario often cited by the Far-Right, Social Security will only be able to pay 80% of all benefits people are entitled to, but the National Economy has NEVER followed the Worse Case Scenario and in the most likely scenario, which the economy has tended to follow over the last 100 years, Social Security still breaks even with a very good chance of continued surplus).

My point is if the US followed the pattern of the rest of the world and only spent 1.5% of its GNP on Defense you have have saved almost 3 Percentage points of the 5-6& you cite. Given that the service of the debt is the third largest cost of the budget (Through given recent drop in T-bond rates to negative level much less then it was just a few years ago) cutting back on the Military will be the best thing the US could do. Just ask the simple questions, do we need 12 Carriers? We only used four Against Saddam, and two of them were just excess. Doing the Cold War most National Guard Units were still leg infantry, why the rapid conversion of these leg infantry units to Armored (tanks) and mechanized infantry SINCE the end of the Cold War (Except that Tanks used in armored units are produced at a tremendous profit by the Military-industrial complex). We have National Guard Armored Units who cost of troops are minimal do to be National Guard with tanks that cost millions (And were NOT shipped to Iraq do to lack of Transport, we could move the National Guard Troops BUT not their Equipment, it was for this reason many such units stayed leg infantry during the Cold War, you only have units that you can use in actual combat, these Armored National Guard Units can NOT be used as Armored Units, instead in Iraq most such units are used as Military Police). My point is the WASTE in arming such units in the States as Armored Units with almost no chance of every being used as such do to lack of transport (Which has been transferred from the Navy, Army and Air Force to Civilian Contractors).

Why do we need a the 20 or so wings of the US Air Force? Most will never be used do to problem with fuel (Getting the fuel to the base where they can operate from). The Marines have their own waste, why do we need TWO amphibious capable units? The ships they use are small enough to go through the Panama Canal so why do we need one in the Pacific and one in the Atlantic? Remember the last time the Marines tried to land by sea, Saddam was able to prevent them from doing so by mining the coast (Thus the Marines had to go along the coast of Kuwait during Desert Storm AND had to wait for the buildup of not only its forces, and the removal of all mines, but also the build up the US Army's forces in the attack on Iraq). The Coast Guard may be the only service NOT being overspent on (And since it is now part of Homeland Security the Budget for the Coast Guard is NOT part of the Defense Department's Budget).

I will NOT address the issue of the Nuclear bombs we have. While the launching system are part of the Defense Budget, the actual weapons themselves are 2/3rds of the Budget of the Department of Energy (Yes, the same agency to help us address the high cost of Oil, primary job is making Nuclear bombs).


As to other costs in the Federal Budget, let quote the last cite I gave above:

These disguised cost items include budgets for the Coast Guard and the Department of Homeland Security; nuclear weapons research and development, testing, and storage (placed in the Energy budget); veterans programs (in the Veteran’s Administration budget); most military retiree payments (in the Treasury budget); foreign military aid in the form of weapons grants for allies (in the State Department budget); interest payments on money borrowed to fund military programs in past years (in the Treasury budget); sales and property taxes at military bases (in local government budgets); and the hidden expenses of tax-free food, housing, and combat pay allowances.

Thus, the cost of maintaining our bases overseas is NOT part of the Defense budget, thus we may be able to save the WHOLE 5-6% of the Deficient simply by cutting back on the Military (No Planes, ships or Troops that can go overseas, no need for bases for them to operate from, thus no need to spend the money on such bases). My point is simple, we CAN solve the Budget Deficient AND continue non-defense spending but Congress does NOT want to and prefers to hide defense spending in these other areas of the Government, ALL of which can be cut if we really wanted to cut defense spending.

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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. Those cuts are simply not going to happen and you know it.
I think we can cut $150 billion from the base budget plus the $200 billion or so on the two wars. However, beyond that I wouldn't even be comfortable with the cuts. That would still leave us $350 billion short at least.

I will also point out that most on this board want more economic stimulus, higher government expenditures on foreign aid, environmental spending, education, and health care plus lower taxes on low income earners. You have to raise taxes somewhere to pay for all of this. I have no problem with that, but let's not pretend that we can solve it in just one area. We can't.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. The Russians did it in the 1990s, as did most of the rest of the world
Now, Russia did it because Russia no longer had the money to spend that much money, thus Russian economic implosion lead to rapid decease in Military Spending. With the self-destruction of the old Soviet Union the rest of the World, dependent more on TROOPS then EQUIPMENT also saw a decease in spending (as did the US, when it came to spending money on Troops as opposed to the Equipment the Troops were using). Thus it CAN be done, no political will to do so, but there is no political will to cut ANYTHING ELSE EITHER. Thus we will have the deficient until the time where we can no longer fund it. At that point we will be in the same situation as was the Soviet Union in the late 1980s, facing self-destruction. At that point and only at that point will you see massive cuts in Defense spending.

Now, as to the stimulus package, an effective stimulus package is designed to produce as much economic activity as possible. Military spend can do this IF IT IS SPENT ON ENLISTED PERSONNEL. i.e. by increase in pay for E-4s and below. People in this economic group are NOT making enough money to save and thus will spend almost all of their earnings. The spending of such earnings will NOT be on big ticket items but small ticket items like food, clothing etc (Rarely housing, the stimulus is to short for people to upgrade their housing except in the case of the homeless who then only rent out the cheapest rental unit they can find). These actions will force retailers to hire additional help to collect the money when the goods are sold. This lead to further economic activities as the money works it way through the economy till the rich gets all of it (The rich always do, but that is a minor problem). Increase welfare grants and Food stamps follow similar spending patterns. Tax deductions, on the other hand, skip most of the poor and immediately go to the Middle Class who uses it to reduce their already extensive debts and thus the Tax Deductions go quickly to the Rich. Military spending on EQUIPMENT tends to also go to the Upper Middle class and the Rich, thus do NOT produce anywhere near the economic activity that increase welfare, Food Stamps, and increase pay for people on or near the Minimum wage levels (Such as E-1 to E-4s in the Military). This has been know for centuries, 18th century economists were the first to write about it, but it has been confirmed in the 19th and 20th centuries (We are only in year 9 of the 21st Century and except for the Recession of 2000-2001 where massive increase in spending lead the charge out of that recession seems to confirm the same set of economic realities).

Thus, cutting defense spending with its LOW level of increase economic activities in the National Economy by spending on Welfare, Food Stamps, and pay of low income people will increase economic activities more then we lose by cutting the defense budget(No one is asking for a pay cut in E-1 to E-4s, what is being asked is no more spending on high tech jets like the F-22 and F-35. no more carriers, no more M1 tanks). As to troops fighting with obsolete equipment, that is the situation in most armies in most wars. The Germans went to war in 1939 still fielding the Panzer Mark 1, which was never intended to be anything more then a training tank (It was removed from service by the time of the Invasion of France in 1940, but that still left the German Army with Panzer Mark II as their primary tank, a tank that was clearly obsolete and being replaced by the Mark IIIs and Mark IVs during the same time period. The Mark III was obsolete by 1943, but stayed the main German Tank till 1945. The US was as bad, fielding French 1897 75mm Cannons while into 1943 (When the last 1897s were replaced by the M1 105mm Howitzer). The Sherman was a rush job, based on civilian compo nets and slowly improved throughout WWII (The Sherman's replacement, the M26 Pershing was NOT used in Combat till 1945 and even then it was obsolete and replaced by the M46 within three years of the end of WWII).

I point out the above obsolete equipment to show ALL COUNTRIES HAVE FOUGHT WARS WITH OBSOLETE EQUIPMENT (another example is that except for the US, all Countries were still using bolt action rifles in WWII, even through semi-automatics had been around since 1900). Spending to buy the latest weapon is rarely cost effective GIVEN THE HARM SUCH SPENDING HAS ON THE NATIONAL ECONOMY. The economy would be better off with increase spending on the poor even at the cost of cutting defense spending. Spending on the poor can lead to up to $1.67 of economic activities for every dollar spend, while defense spending on weapons can actually lead to a DECREASE in economic Activities.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #57
65. Most of the United States armed services were armed
with bolt action Springfield rifles at the beginning of WWII. The Garand M1 was not heavily issued until late 1942. Some U.S. troopes were still carrying Springfield 1903A3 as late as 1944. By the end of WWII, 1/3 of the Soviet army carried fully automatic weapons. 20 percent of the German Army carried automatic weapons. The vast majority of American infantry in 1944 still carried the semi automatic M1.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #65
73. I was emphasis that we do NOT need to update the Equipment ALL THE TIME
Sooner or later it has to be replaced, but my point was that to spend as money as we do on EQUIPMENT is not cost-effective and harmful to the economy as a whole.

Side Note: The US Springfield was NOT declared obsolete when the M1 was adopted. The reason for this was the Springfield could do things the M1 could not (Both weapons could launch rifle launched grenades, the Springfield did a better job of it). The Springfield had a longer range when used by a person trained in in that regard (The Rear Sights of the Springfield was and is one of the best, if NOT the best, long range non-optic sights ever developed, at the end of WWI when the US had a choice between the M1903 Springfield and the more plentiful M1917 Enfield the US Army preferred the Springfield do to its better long range sight). Now the M1 Rifle had a better "Battle Sight" i.e. better for 90-95% of combat situation, but for long range shooting the Springfield came out on top. For this reason even as late as 1945 each Rifle Squad was to have at least ONE Springfield (The rest of the Squad had one BAR and 10 M1s). Thus the Springfield was NEVER Obsolete as far as the US Army was concerned.

As to the fully automatic weapons the Germans and Russians carried, most were Sub-machine guns and as such lack range and power. The use of sub-machine guns were a stop-gap in both armies. Such Sub-machine guns could be issued using existing ammunition and increased fire power at close range. The problem was most combat was just outside the range of submachine guns (i.e. 50-300 yards) and thus just out of range of most sub machine guns. The Russians and German's tend to issue them to people who had other jobs, for example Squad leaders. In the US Army and pre-war German and Soviet Armies such squad leaders had the same rifle as the rest of the Squad. As the war went on a shortage of Rifles appeared in both armies and thus most squad leaders, whose jobs was to direct the squad ended up with a Sub Machine gun. Units set for assault tended to have sub machine guns as were units in occupied territories (More do to most resistance attacks were within the range of Sub Machine Guns). The price of the M3 US Grease gun was something like $20, the British Sten was about $15, the Soviet submachine guns were even cheaper (and unlike the British and Americans did NOT follow the first generation of Cheap Machine guns, the German MP38 series with its double stack column, Soviet submachine guns magazines followed traditional Rifle Magazines design since 1900, a staggered double column which eliminated most jams, but the above German, British and American Sub Machine guns used a "True" double column for it was cheaper to make, all were rapidly replaced after WWII). The M1 cost during WWII was about $80 (and that was in a US Government own armory). Yes, the US understood the value of each weapon and was willing to spend four times the money for one M1 Rifle then for four M3 Grease guns.

Toward the end of WWII you had situations where a US squad faced off a German Squad and won even through the Germans had a better Squad Automatic Weapon in its MG42 (Compared to the M1918 BAR) do to the longer range of American M1 rifles over the Sub Machine Guns in use by the Germans. If the war had lasted into the late 1940s, the Germans already had plans to replace all of its Sub Machine Guns and Bolt Actions rifles with the MP44 series of Assault rifles (Some were in use as early as 1942, but production NEVER reach a high enough level to replace the sub machine guns let alone the Bolt Action Rifles).

As to the Soviets, they kept their Submachine guns in use, but slowly replaced them with the SKS in the late 1940s and 1950s (The Russians claim the SKS saw service at the end of WWII but if it did it was in the last months of the War). Even the Russians kept bolt action rifles in forward units as late as the late 1950s (Not enough SKS to replace them, the Sub Machine guns had to go first AND remember, except for the Thompson Submachine gun and the Australian Ownen's sub machine guns, the Russian sub machine guns were much better then any other sub machine gun).

My point is simple, Sub Machine Guns were stop gap weapons. As the War went on more and more Sub Machine Guns were used, but they NEVER replaced the Bolt Action Rifle in any army (And since the US was the only Country with a Semi-automatic in general use, sub machine guns did NOT replace M1 rifles in US Use). Given a choice most troops, would go into combat with a Bolt Action Rifle over a Machine Gun, do to the Sub Machine gun lack of range (Assault Rifles solved this problem for such Assault Rifles can reach out to 300-400 yards). In close in fighting the Sub Machine Gun was preferred, but in most of Europe such fighting was the Exception to the Rule not the rule (My father who participated in the Normandy Campaign looked for a M3 Grease gun for use in the Hedge row country, but once outside of those hedgerows he preferred the BAR he did pick up). He knew the M3 Grease guns value AND its limitation. In the Open Country of the Russian Steeps the limitation became clear to both sides (And another advantage of the Russian Submachine gun was the Russian's Pistol Ammunition was 7.62 Mauser Pistol round, the 7.62 was a terrible pistol round but in Sub Machine guns came into its own with its superior range, but that advantage was NOT enough to permit it to replace the bolt action rifles carried by the Soviet Army).

Just Comments on the Weapons of WWII. The British Sten was replaced in the British Army by the very similar Sterling in the 1950s (The Sterling had a staggered double column in place of the Sten's double column magazine) but the .303 Enfield Bolt Action Rifle stayed in service till the 1960s (When it was replaced by the FN FAL). Why? Because the Enfield had the range and reliability needed on most battle fields (The STEN lacked BOTH, the Sterling solved the reliability issue but not the range issue). The FN FAL was technically capable of Automatic Fire, but like the M14 the round it fired was to powerful for effective use as an automatic weapon. When I was in Basic we only fired our M16 in the Automatic Mode at a 25 yard target at night (We never did get to see if we hit anything, qualification was done during daylight and in the semi-automatic mode for that is when you can HIT something with anything other then by LUCK).

Please remember Automatic Fire in anything other then a heavy weapon is hard for a person to control. In Machine guns used with a bi-pod only three rounds is about all you can fire and hope to hit something. 8-10 rounds is all you can fire if you are using a modern General Purpose Machine Gun on a Tripod (Old Fashioned water cooled Machine guns or tripods can do better, as can any weapon as heavy or heavier, i.e. Gatling guns if provide a support such as a tripod to keep the fire level). Submachine guns can fire effectively for about 8-10 rounds, but even then the shooter is firing into the sky (When a person fire an Automatic weapon, other then on a tripod, you will tend to react to each push of recoil as each round is fired, do to this insensitive reaction, each round will go up and to the right (If you are firing right handed, if firing left handed you will go to the left and up). After about three rounds in an AK-47, M16 or WWII era BAR (Or the BAR used in today's army) the upward and rightward motion will take the weapon's fire out of action (i.e. over the head of the people you are shooting at). In Sub machine guns the movement is not as severe (do to the lower recoil of the round being fired) but even in a Sub Machine Gun you are overshooting your target by the time you have fired 8-10 rounds. For this reason AUTOMATIC FIRE IS DISCOURAGED IN ALMOST EVERY ARMY EXCEPT IN LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES. Remember that when you point out that both the Soviet and German WWII armies as as many "Automatic" Weapons as claimed, did NOT make them more effective units NOR that either army was better equipped then the US Army with its Semi-automatic Rifle, the M1. That was slowly changing. The Germans were on their way to produce the first Assault Rifle (Even through the Russians had decided on a similar course earlier, the German did NOT standardize the round till 1942, the Soviets had done so in 1939). Even Stalin liked the concept of a light round (Through he rejected the AK in favor of the SKS for he seems to have wanted to avoid the use of detachable magazines, saw them as an added expense he could avoid if his troops stayed with Stripper Clips as used on the Mauser Rifles, the Springfield Rifle, The British Enfields, in addition to the Soviet Bolt Action Rifles) and had the SKS in production by 1945 (It is debatable if it was used in WWII, but it was being fielded by that Summer replacing Sub-machine guns and Bolt Action Rifles). Please note the SKS was semi-automatic only, just like the M1 Rifle (Through firing the 7.62x39mm used in the AK series of Rifles starting in 1947).

Anyway, getting back to the point I was trying to make, every army has gone to war NOT with the equipment it wanted to fight that war with, but with the weapons it has on hand. People can NOT determine HOW the next war will be fought (and often guess wrong based on experience of the last war, this is what happened during WWI with the British Army. The British Army had been butchered by the Boars with their superior Mauser Rifles during the Boar war around 1900. The British were determined to make sure that never happened again, first the British increased rifle training for its troops then in 1913 the British adopted the 1913 pattern Enfield to replace the Lee-Enfield then in use by the British Army. The next year WWI broke out and while the new long range training came into some use in the first months of the war, it was quickly found that such long range opportunities were rare on the Western Front and the replacement by the slower firing, but more accurate M1913 Enfield of the shorter range but more rapid firing Lee-Enfield was canceled (Mauser rifles such as the M1913 Enfield, the M1917 Enfield, the M1903 Springfield's and M1898 Mauser could fire up to 14 rounds per minute, the Lee Enfield do to its rear locking bolt was faster to operate and could fire up to 20 rounds per Minette). Why the mistake of almost replacing what turned out to be a better rifle in France? The Boar war lessons were taken to be universal NOT one restricted to areas where you had huge open areas as opposed to the many farms, fences, towns etc that western Europe is noted for. In Western Europe you do NOT need a long range rifle like the Mauser, a shorter range, but still effective range of 800 yards or less was more then good enough. On the other hand had the British found themselves in another area like South Africa the shortcomings of the Lee-Enfield would have reappeared (When Britain returned to Colonial Campaign after WWI it took along with it the increased use of Machine Guns that had come into general practice during WWI, thus the need for long range never appeared, through when it came to Iraq the US made sure several of its units had M14s available if needed in the early days of the attack on Iraq for it is open land compared to Europe.

The point of the last paragraph was to show you can NOT always prepare for ALL the potential wars you will face. Some wars are more likely then others. Remember how we defeated the Iraqi resistance? (We paid them off, we were slowly losing till we reached an agreement with them as to how much we would pay them NOT to fight us, thus our most effective weapon in Iraq was the Dollar). Between WWI and WWII the British expected to fight another Battleship to Battleship fight like Jutland, but when WWII started it was found that German had NOT built up its Navy enough to even challenge British Naval Power (The Bismark sailing in May 1941 was an attempt to destroy a convoy NOT to engage British Battleships, when the Bismark did face them it was sunk) the British found they had plenty of Battleships (and even Plenty of Carriers) but a lack of Destroyers to attack the growing U-Boat threat. This Lend-lease started out as the transfer of US Destroyers to the British for Anti-U boat duties. Britain had more then enough Battleships and Carriers, it lack Destroyers for Britain had assumed its next war would be like the last, when the threat turned out to be completely different (The Carriers turned in Valuable service, but the Battleships while also providing valuable service, did less then the Destroyers and Carriers did in winning WWII. In simple terms, Britain would have been better off keeping fewer Battleships between the Wars and using that money to build up its economy so it would have had more money to buy want it needed when it was needed. In many ways that is what we need to do, we are wasting money buying equipment that will be replaced before it is ever used in Combat (F-22 and F35 Fighters for example). We could fly the F-16s for the next few decades till we see WHAT is a military threat to the US. We do NOT need F-22s and F-35s to fight Al Queda or the Taliban (A-10s are good enough for that function). If war with China occurs within the Next 20 years the F-16s and F-18s are good enough for such a war (The F-15 is a much better plane then either, but the age of the air frames are such they need to be replaced). I do NOT see a threat to the US where we even need our Nuclear Submarine Force (Both Ballistic missiles and Attack Submarines). I am for keeping those running that we do have, but cut back on improvements and replacements till such time as someone is a threat THAT can be addressed by such submarines. The same with the Carriers. Why do we have to have 12?

Why do we have a 2 1/2 war policy (2 1/2 war policy is the policy that the US shall have the Capacity to fight two OFFENSIVE OPERATIONS and ONE defensive operations at the same time. It was the Policy of the US before Vietnam, but with Vietnam and the oil Embargo the US dropped to a 1 1/2 war policy UNTIL the Soviet Union self-destructed, then to keep up military spending the 2 1/2 war policy was reinstated. Why do we need to have bases all over the world "protect out interests"? So what if someone takes something over, we may have to pay more but we are doing that now with our excessive military spending. Would we NOT be better off if oil is NOT controlled by anyone by US Corporations (Higher price for Gas is one of the cost to solve the energy crisis, the Global Warming Crisis, and even the US trade deficient, so someone taking over the world's oil supply is NOT that much of a threat given who ever gets control still has to sell the oil to someone and that someone tends to be the US). We do NOT need to have the military of the size we have. In a time of crisis much of what we have in the Military will be useless (Designed for the Wrong War at the Wrong Time). In time of crisis, with no preexisting products we could design and built what is really needed NOT what we needed for a different type of war. We can achieve that by cutting back military expenditures to the bone, close the bases over seas and get back to building up the US internally. That is what we need to do, not try to control the world through our military might.
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. As Rumsfeld said, you fight the war with what you have
not what you wish you had. At the start of WWII, American torpedoes did not work. Frontline American figher aircraft were outclassed by the front line fighter aircraft of the German and Japanese air forces. It took until early 1945 to produce a tank that could stand up to the front line tanks of the the German Army. All of these short comings cost thousands of lives. We determined that we would never allow that to happen again. Maybe a short sighted policy but it is one that we have followed for the last 65 years.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. "higher government expenditures on foreign aid" WTF ...who the hell here is for that?
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. Aid to poor countries? I think quite a few people here are in favor of that.
Or at least the liberals I have always known are.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. Like we don't have enough poor in our own country ....pffft
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
2. I have no idea what you're talking about, but your prediction is laughable. nt
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Just reported on CNN n/t
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. I think its this the OP is referring to
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/12/15/obama.debt.commission/index.html?iref=allsearch

Washington (CNN) -- President Obama is seriously considering an executive order to create a bipartisan commission that could weigh sweeping tax increases and spending cuts to try to slash the soaring federal deficit, CNN has learned.

Documents obtained by CNN show that top advisers to the president have been privately weighing various versions of a commission, and opinions differ about how to structure it. Officials say that some inside the administration are pushing for a narrow mandate because it's too complicated to tackle reform of the tax system and possible spending cuts to various popular programs such as Social Security and Medicare all at once.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. Please provide some context to your statement
What information do you have that says "HE" (who ever HE is) is going to raise taxes?

Links would be nice.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. See link added to OP n/t
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
6. The individual mandate is a HUGH back-door tax on the uninsured.
If the individual mandate passes, that promise will have already been broken.

(Note that this is certainly not the tax increase referred to by the OP.)

:dem:

-Laelth
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. This is what the OPis referring to
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/12/15/obama.debt.commission/index.html?iref=allsearch

Washington (CNN) -- President Obama is seriously considering an executive order to create a bipartisan commission that could weigh sweeping tax increases and spending cuts to try to slash the soaring federal deficit, CNN has learned.

Documents obtained by CNN show that top advisers to the president have been privately weighing various versions of a commission, and opinions differ about how to structure it. Officials say that some inside the administration are pushing for a narrow mandate because it's too complicated to tackle reform of the tax system and possible spending cuts to various popular programs such as Social Security and Medicare all at once.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
10. They lost this battle in the Senate to create this commission
So they are now going to use the President to create it. Appears the DLC conservadems were acting on behalf of the administration the entire time.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
11. If we don't raise taxes we've lost our ability to ever pay for our debt.
Which criticism of Obama are you going to levy? Is it that he always acts in the name of political expediency against good policy or that he charges ahead on necessary policy and doesn't properly think of the political consequences? It really can't be both. I would also like to see how you propose cutting the budget deficit.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. He could maybe not give money in Tax Breaks to banks
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. I agree there, but you're a smart enough guy to know that the scale of our
budget deficits in the next two decades make these sorts of numbers irrelevant.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. You can't really run around saying I need to raise taxes
When you pay Citigroup in tax breaks to pay back their TARP and tell the American people you have made money off of TARP.

Sorry, he has lost my trust. After going on 60 minutes and feigning outrage on Sunday, only to be shown on Wednesday it was nonsense talk, anything he says in public will have to be confirmed with actual action.
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #25
55. +1,000,000,000,000,000,000
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. These commissions ALWAYS put the tax burden on the middle class
ALWAYS!
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. Sucks for them
There will be no middle class.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. They can't make the numbers work by taxing the middle class.
There isn't enough money there. There quite literally isn't.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
13. He just cut taxes on the To Big Too Fail
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
17. I thought most DUers wanted him to raise taxes on the wealthy to pay for the rest of us
as long as the DUers don't have to pay anymore
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. He promised CUTS for the middle class
and commissions that study raising taxes ALWAYS put the burden on the middle class.

The rich will feel no pain, nor any increase.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. He said a lot of things
Facts on the ground have changed, he needs to raise a billion dollars for 2012.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. I guarantee you that there will be a tax increase on the wealthy proposed.
I am willing to bet you $250.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. and I guarantee you that there will be a loophole the size of the Holland Tunnel
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 08:27 AM by AllentownJake
I am willing to bet $250.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Do you bet that they will be able to avoid the entirety of the marginal rate increase?
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. They'll get a payoff for stimulating the economy
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 08:37 AM by AllentownJake
It may end up being a win-win, but I guarantee you that is in the works. Lots of money sitting on the sidelines.

A financial transaction tax could cut the budget deficit and reduce day trading and robot trading, however Tim Geithner says that is "off the table"

You want to hit the wealthy, hit them there, not with a marginal rate increase.

As a side note, I have experience with this in market timing in mutual funds in annuities and VUL products. It was amazing how quickly the shenanigans stopped in annuities and VUL when the financial transaction penalties started being applied in older products that didn't have the language we could limit trading activity in a month but said we could charge a transaction fee.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. I have proposed a financial transactions tax for years.
I am really pissed that we aren't pursuing one.

However, I think that there still is a great deal of good to be done by closing loopholes on carried interest and other mechanisms to reclassify what is essentially earned income and then increasing marginal tax rates.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. We'll see what is proposed
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 08:57 AM by AllentownJake
Taking the marginal benefit of day trading, which has been destructive the past 15 years with the advent of computer trading, would do a lot to restore stability to the markets.

Paul Volcker and others appear to be getting behind some progressive reform, and the fact that they are speaking out, means they have decided to out the White House.

We shall see what a "bipartisan" commission comes up with. let me say, I'm not hopeful. Particularly with this democratic President picking the players on our side of the aisle.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. I frankly think the proposals out of the administration would improve exponentially if
Larry Summers wasn't there giving advice. For some reason Democrats deferred all economic thinking to a man who has spent his academic career essentially legitimizing supply-side.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Yes and been wrong on everything he has ever suggested or implemented
He's Bob Rubin's boy and Bob Rubin raises a lot of money.
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sad sally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
63. My memory (and me) are old, but wasn't one of the campaign
promises that taxes were going to be raised on those making over $250,000? Wasn't that repeated over and over; didn't rich Democrats (like Bill Clinton) say it wasn't fair they were paying so little? What happened? Oh yeah, I forgot - you can't raise taxes during a recession, two wars, depression like unemployment, disasterous climate changes, Countries like Africa with massive starvation, American cities crumbling, bankers who NEED more money, wealthy people who NEED more money - come on, poor people, suck it up. Raising taxes on those making more than $250,000 just wouldn't be right; maybe in another life time, but not now.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #63
75. Yep-Obama HAMMERED that point over & over.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
28. 90% of Americans wanted war in 2001
The bill has now come due.

Let them pay for it now.

Don
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
34. Better yet, let's end the war (s)
Oh, wait, we can't allow that, we apparently have to keep the military industrial complex well fed and cared for. More of our money being redistributed up the ladder.
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
35. He already gave the OK to tax private health care benefits in the Senate bill.
This will mean less money every month for millions of Americans.

Obama campaigned against this very tax and argued with McCain about it in the debates.

Now he has flipped on the issue and the unions have protested, and been ignored.

One more to the ever-growing, apparently endless list of Obama's failures and betrayals.



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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
37. They are going after social security and medicare.
From Feb.


"With the enactment of a large economic stimulus package, fiscal conservatives are using the temporary deficit increase to attack a perennial target - Social Security and Medicare. The private-equity investor Peter G. Peterson, who launched a billion-dollar foundation last year to warn that America faces $56.4 trillion in "unfunded liabilities," is a case in point. Supposedly, these costs will depress economic growth and crowd out other needed outlays, such as investments in the young. The remedy: big cuts in programs for the elderly.

The Peterson Foundation is joined by leading "blue dog" (anti-deficit) Democrats such as House Budget Committee Chairman John Spratt of South Carolina and his counterpart in the Senate, Kent Conrad of North Dakota. The deficit hawks are promoting a "grand bargain" in which a bipartisan commission enacts spending caps on social insurance as the offset for current deficits.

...What's wrong with the story of entitlements wrecking the economy? Plenty.

For starters, the $56 trillion "unfunded liability" figure relies on creative accounting. Only about $6.36 trillion is the actual public debt, according to the U.S. Treasury. Most of the number Peterson cites is a combination of the 75-year worst-case projections for Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=389&topic_id=7239633&mesg_id=7239633
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. yes, they are.
it looks like revolution time is comin'...
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. Wall Street wants it.
"The basic story is straightforward. There is a determined clique, led by Wall Street investment banker Peter Peterson, that has been trying to cut Social Security and Medicare benefits for at least the last two decades. Peterson, a cabinet member in the Nixon administration, is especially important in this story because he has personally bankrolled much of the effort.

Peterson started the Concord Coalition for this purpose back in the early '90s. He has written numerous books calling for cuts in these programs. He uses his vast Wall Street fortune to publicize these books, thereby ensuring that they are reviewed in major media outlets and reach a wide audience. More recently, he has pledged a billion dollars to support a foundation that is devoting considerable resources to bring about cuts in Social Security and Medicare.

Peterson and his crew have been peddling a story of fiscal calamity to advance their agenda. They try to scare young people with tales of enormous deficits driven by Social Security and Medicare."

http://www.truthout.org/1201095

Obama will give it to them.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #42
74. Social Security is NOT broken. Those bastards know it.
:argh:
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:13 AM
Original message
"The nation's unsustainable fiscal course is the result of imbalance across the budget as a whole.."
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 09:14 AM by dysfunctional press
The nation's unsustainable fiscal course is the result of this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_SqhhJb_P3Kk/SeYaOXkKdbI/AAAAAAAAGZQ/0rPz_ggTfKU/s400/Historical+top+tax+rates.jpg

we've been living on borrowed money ever since ronbo raygun SLASHED the top marginal rates.
and YES- that includes clinton's tenure.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
40. i guess this is the speculative outrage du jour...
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iceman66 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
43. Some taxes need to be raised.
As long as he sticks to his campaign promise of not raising taxes on incomes less than $250K, Obama should be fine.
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
44. Commission to rein in federal entitlement costs is proposed
Commission to rein in federal entitlement costs is proposed
MCT News Service
October 28, 2009

WASHINGTON Amid signs that health care overhaul legislation will do little to slow the growth in health care spending in the coming decade, lawmakers and Obama administration officials are considering tougher steps to rein in soaring budget deficits.

One approach that's attracting widespread attention calls for creating a bipartisan commission to draft proposals to control the long-term costs of Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. Together, the three programs account for 40 percent of all federal spending other than interest on the national debt.

The recommendations of the proposed commission would command a swift up-or-down vote by Congress. Senate Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad, D-N.D., and Republican Sen. Judd Gregg of New Hampshire, the chief authors of the proposal, say they may attempt to attach it to must-pass legislation raising the government's debt ceiling in the coming weeks.

"My concern is the trajectory of our deficits and debt are completely unsustainable and that (while) health care reform helps, it is not sufficient" to control runaway entitlement spending, Conrad said in an interview. "We've got to do much more, and I don't believe it will happen in the regular order. I think it requires a special process."

http://www.kfsm.com/sns-200910280803mctnewsservbc-healthcare-costs-mct,0,4098075.story

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x19938



In testimony before the Senate Banking Committee today, where he's seeking re-appointment as the Fed's chairman, Bernanke called for cutbacks in Medicare and Social Security even as unemployment rises and the middle class is endangered.

Citing legendary bank robber Willie Sutton, Bernanke said of the retirement and health care funds that are the legacy of the New Deal: "That's where the money is."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/03/bernanke-channels-willie_n_378963.html

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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. This is where they gut Medicare and SS. nt
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. dupe.
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 10:05 AM by Phoebe Loosinhouse
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piratefish08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
45. color me surprised.
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
46. Looting Social Security By William Greider
"Governing elites in Washington and Wall Street have devised a fiendishly clever "grand bargain" they want President Obama to embrace in the name of "fiscal responsibility." The government, they argue, having spent billions on bailing out the banks, can recover its costs by looting the Social Security system. They are also targeting Medicare and Medicaid. The pitch sounds preposterous to millions of ordinary working people anxious about their economic security and worried about their retirement years. But an impressive armada is lined up to push the idea--Washington's leading think tanks, the prestige media, tax-exempt foundations, skillful propagandists posing as economic experts and a self-righteous billionaire spending his fortune to save the nation from the elderly.

These players are promoting a tricky way to whack Social Security benefits, but to do it behind closed doors so the public cannot see what's happening or figure out which politicians to blame. The essential transaction would amount to misappropriating the trillions in Social Security taxes that workers have paid to finance their retirement benefits. This swindle is portrayed as "fiscal reform." In fact, it's the political equivalent of bait-and-switch fraud.

To understand the mechanics of this attempted swindle, you have to roll back twenty-five years, to the time the game of bait and switch began, under Ronald Reagan. The Gipper's great legislative victory in 1981--enacting massive tax cuts for corporations and upper-income ranks--launched the era of swollen federal budget deficits. But their economic impact was offset by the huge tax increase that Congress imposed on working people in 1983: the payroll tax rate supporting Social Security--the weekly FICA deduction--was raised substantially, supposedly to create a nest egg for when the baby boom generation reached retirement age. A blue-ribbon commission chaired by Alan Greenspan worked out the terms, then both parties signed on. Since there was no partisan fight, the press portrayed the massive tax increase as a noncontroversial "good government" reform.

Ever since, working Americans have paid higher taxes on their labor wages--12.4 percent, split between employees and employers. As a result, the Social Security system has accumulated a vast surplus--now around $2.5 trillion and growing. This is the money pot the establishment wants to grab, claiming the government can no longer afford to keep the promise it made to workers twenty-five years ago."

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090302/greider
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
49. We should first tax the wealthy and the rich.
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
50. He better.
I'd like to see the tmtr rise 40 points.
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AndyA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
51. It would appear the Obama supporters have shown up.
Nothing he does is to be questioned or criticized. The same thing happened during the Bush years, and most of DU didn't like it. Now that it's a Democrat in office, apparently the attitude has changed.

Broken promises are broken promises. No credibility. No change. No transparency. No equality. No real health care reform.

Pathetic. (But we made history! HOO-RAY!!)
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
53. Obama said: "Social Security is not in crisis"
Obama advocates removing the current cap on Social Security payroll taxes, which exempts all income above the first $102,000 each person earns. Obama argues that the system favors wealthy people, who should be paying a fair share to support Social Security, but he acknowledges a compromise may be needed to protect middle-class workers whose incomes are slightly higher than the current cap.

During the Democratic debate at Drexel University in October 2007, Obama said: "Social Security is not in crisis; it is a fundamentally sound system, but it does have a problem, long-term. We've got 78 million baby boomers, who are going to be retiring over the next couple of decades. That means more retirees, fewer workers to support those retirees. We are going to have to do something about it. The best idea is to lift the cap on the payroll tax, potentially exempting middle-class folks, but making sure that the wealthy are paying more of their fair share, a little bit more."

http://seniorliving.about.com/od/presidentialcampaign2008/a/obama_mccain-tc.htm

Now a change in tune-

"Officials say that some inside the administration are pushing for a narrow mandate because it's too complicated to tackle reform of the tax system and possible spending cuts to various popular programs such as Social Security and Medicare all at once."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/12/15/obama.debt.commission/index.html
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
56. Where does it say that taxes are being raised?
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Blasphemer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
58. Nothing wrong with raising taxes on the WEALTHY... It is long overdue nt
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
61. Judd Gregg, a New Hampshire Republican...
say no more...:eyes:
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
62. Good
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
67. This is almost as good as the assertion he will bomb Iran
:rofl:

You're looking to be outraged.
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Luciferous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
68. Merry fucking Christmas
:grr:
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
69. why not give trillions to the banks and maintain lower taxes on the ultra rich
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Strelnikov_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
71. Every day this place looks more like freeperville n/t
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
72. His international bankers want to see Obama reign in the national debt.
So, Obama is now considering raising your taxes and cutting entitlements.

And just in time for Christmas.

Now how do we tell Tiny Tim?
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TiberiusGracchus Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
78. I would've been surprised yesterday, but today this just makes perfect tragic sense.
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SOCALS Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
79. I am for raising taxes on those making over $250,000
There will be enough money left for them still
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