The only reason to support this bill is to prevent the Republicans from claiming victory.

[rug]

At this point no one can credibly claim it reforms healthcare.

So, is it worth passing for pure craven politics? Is it worth passing just to suppress the inevitable Republican crowing?

[sharesunited]

1. I will endure them crowing if it pisses people off enough to vote in more Democrats.

[existentialist]

7. I'm with you

If we can publicize who defeated this bill, and why, and what it means, the Democrats (absent the DINOs who did not truly support reform) will win the issue irrespective of the defeat of the specific legislation.

[salguine]

40. Given what we have in there now, how will more Democrats help?

[mike_c]

2. that's a "victory" I'd love to see them own....

Seriously.

[Froward69]

36. HELL YEAH!!!

They made this HC bill the fascist mandate insurance giveaway that it is now. the very same thing they "warned" us about. it is better to let it die.
give them that victory...

as hollow as it would be.


this bill just adds to the problem it fixes NOTHING.


let them do their happy dance we just reintroduce later pointing out their delay, obstructionism and the slime that they are.

FUCK the republi-klans

[tularetom]

3. Nah, let 'em beat this bill to death

Then they will be the ones blamed for screwing up health care.

If the bill passes and turns out to be as big a pile of crap as we all suspect, the voters will be mad at the Dems.

But if they think the repubs killed the bill, they will be pissed at them.

Letting them go ahead and put this thing outr of its misery is the best alternative for Obama and the Dems at this juncture.

[rug]

8. That's a good point. "They won't even pass this stinking pile of shit."

May be worth a few seats.

[ixion]

4. uh, the potential backlash of mandating insurance outweighs that vanity

in my opinion.

[Marr]

20. Big time.

Let Republicans crow about killing healthcare reform. They'll impress the teabaggers, and that's about it. Everyone else will despise them for it.

Pass this piece of shit bill and the Democrats are going to be back in the minority very soon.

[Luciferous]

5. No, it's not worth it. nt

[malaise]

6. My question is why do Rethugs want the bill to fail so badly

I'm very disappointed but that question must be answered before Dems give them any victory.

[rug]

9. Excellent question.

It should be put on every flyer in 2010.

[TorchTheWitch]

13. Because it would be Dems getting the Ins. industry campaign money

Otherwise, the Repubs would have concocted this same shitty bill themselves.

[laughingliberal]

22. Bingo! And exactly the reason anything resembling help for the average American got taken out of it.

Rahm's probably got the calculator out as we speak adding up all that lovely money.

[Sparkly]

10. I know what you're saying, but...

For them to "declare victory" in sinking it is no victory for them, except perhaps those with narrow (minded) constituencies, because the majority of people want actual real reform. If this passes, they could say, "Look how bi-partisan we are! See, we LOVE reform!"

Democrats, I'm afraid, would do the same (based on what they've said about this piece of crap).

To have a shred of credibility left, Democrats need to get some spines, refuse this tepid bowl of nothing, and work to change it -- make the Republicans filibuster!!

If absolutely necessary, pass the small measures that provide some help, but they should NOT declare "victory" -- they should claim they've been obstructed by Republicans and make it clear going into the next elections that they need an even stronger, more progressive majority. Good luck with that, though -- BushCo got more with less. It shows their own weakness.

[rug]

12. If they call their bluff in the Senate and make them filibuster, something good may yet happen.

At the very least, the fundamental issues will be clearly defined and it will be obvious who stands for what.

[EFerrari]

That's about the size of it. Either way, the Republicans win.

[MisterP]

11. better the GOP does a "victory" lap than the insurance companies nt

[EnlightenedOne]

19. Aren't they one in the same?

[Blue_In_AK]

14. On the other hand,

if the bill passes and fails miserably to accomplish any good for the people, Democrats will lose. Pass it or not, Democrats lose.

[kirby]

15. They have already claimed victory... n/t

[backscatter712]

16. I'm sure the teabaggers are flinging poo in delight...

Now that the bill's pretty much dead, they'll conclude that their marches of intimidation and street thuggery are working, and they'll turn the volume up to 11...

Where have I seen this movie before?

[Name removed]

17. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigtree]

18. let them crow

Let them blow their top. They still don't have any cohesive plan that's generated any support. Let them draw attention to their empty hand.

[laughingliberal]

21. Great choice, huh? Give the Republicans a victory or sign our own death warrants?

Tell me, again, why this is a great country?

[EnlightenedOne]

24. You have to ask?

Its not Iraq, its not Afghanistan, its not Somalia, its not Africa, etc.

Would be better if we were more like Europe - maybe we will evolve a little more and that could happen. But with all the temper tantrums and foot stomping, I'm not so sure.

[laughingliberal]

25. Even without all the foot stomping I doubt I will see this country become more like Europe

I'm a little older and poor and without health insurance. I imagine I'll be long gone before I see it. It's okay. I won't be the first who worked their whole life hoping to see the change who died before we got there.

[librechik]

23. If it passes they will call it a horrible bill that must be killed--and will use our own words

to do it. There is nothing we can do to counter the rhetoric of the neocons. They cheat. We don't. Game over.

[laughingliberal]

27. True, they put the progressive between a rock and a hard place

Fight for a bill that leaves most of us worse off or no better off than before or give the Republicans a talking point. If this administration had come out and fought for us instead of the insurance and pharmaceutical companies and then had to compromise, somewhat, they would have earned our respect and we would have forgiven them for failing to get the best reform through. Strangling the measures which were real reform in their cradle? Not an indication of great moral courage, to me.

[librechik]

28. tough wake up call--"hey, representative democracy is broken! Bye!"

yup sigh

[freddie mertz]

26. I think we lose either way,

2010 is going to suck, I fear.

[Edweird]

29. Heads they win, tails we lose. They have everything they want.

If the bill passes, they win. If it doesn't, I guess they win. I never took the time to learn chess, but I'm sure I can take whoever thought this up in a game of checkers.

[flyarm]

30. That is not a reason to support this shit bill! That is playing the worse politics on people lives,

and health..it would be dispicable to support this shitty bill for the OP reasons!

If the OP gives so little shit about their own health so be it..but it will never get my support for your reasons..my life and my childrens lives and health are way too important to sell my family out for such bogus and bullshit reasons!

[Canuckistanian]

31. Thom Hartmann was right. The Repubs are just sitting this one out.

They've done their job. Now they're just waiting for this to fail. HOPING this will fail.

Then they'll attack, just in time for the midterms.

[Usrename]

32. Passing this pig will HELP the Republicans.

Better to kill it and let the Republicans claim victory.

They can run on the Teabagger platform (having blocked HCR) during the midterms. It would be a bloodbath.

People are not fooled by the RW noise machine any longer, they KNOW something is wrong in DC, and they know it has to do with corporate greed. Even people who know NOTHING about politics think this shit is wrong, just plain wrong.

[GeorgeGist]

33. Passing this POS ...

will only delay Republicans from claiming victory. This IS Obama's Waterloo; unless he gets a spine real soon.

[H2O Man]

34. Well said.

I absolutely agree.

Recommended.

[Ganja Ninja]

35. Let them.

Then it will be their health care system. Every complaint anyone has about health care after this bill fails can be turned on the GOP.

[mdmc]

37. oh

Obama needs his victory

[Generator]

38. That's basically what my senator Ron Wyden

said on the ED show. I don't know what to think of him anymore either. He's as true blue as the come but really it's not doing us any good.

[HuckleB]

39. What is with all the meaningless cliches?

Ugh.

[EFerrari]

43. What cliches are you referring to?

Inquiring minds want to know. :)

[spanone]

41. ron wyden talked about that...he said they would teabag every piece of legislation if they beat this

[EFerrari]

42. No. The Republicants will crow no matter what we do.

Deciding our strategery on them is like setting it to a teenager.

[TiberiusGracchus]

44. Correct. The GOP have gamed both outcomes and will come guns blazing either way.

[Blue_Tires]

45. i was mulling over this same realization today...

and my final verdict was YES -- even though this this bill has been gutted and kicked around from side to side like a tattered football, personally, I still want it to go through...force it through and correct/improve/drop the shitty parts as we go along...Force it through, claim victory over the evil GOP, lobbyists, media and corporate teabag stooges; backlash be damned...

Why? Because this stopped being about healthcare reform a long time ago...Now it's just a pure test of strength, will and leverage...Too many times I've seen the Reid-led Senate backpedal and cede ground while spewing 100 different excuses on why they get nothing done while the GOP damn near gets anything they want and more out of sheer spite...THIS downtrodden, demoralized leftist needs to see ONE time the GOP get the same unapologetic "It's gonna happen anyway so lay back and try to enjoy it" -treatment which it has constantly and ceaselessly dished out...I need that one show of good faith to keep my morale up -- to see that someone up there is still willing to fight