I feel like I'm being blackmailed by the argument that if we don't accept this bill

[G_j]

people are going to die, and the whole country will go bankrupt. Your friend's mother will die of cancer. And horribly, that may be true, and that really is blackmail. A way to FORCE an unsound bill through.
It will be our fault for not supporting a bill which mostly sells us out, and is bent and shaped to the corporate lobby/donors.
Are they trying to blackmail us into letting them strip most of the good out, and guarantee a more than lucrative future for the pharms and insurance companies? Of course they are. We are supposed to be happy with a few good scraps that fall off the table.

That's pretty messed up.

And on top of that, we have had so much utterly shitty, and very harmful legislation come out of congress in recent history (think: banks, bankruptcy, wiretapping, bla, bla, bla.) it's no wonder people are skeptical. If it sucks bad enough, start it over. In the mean time, work on smaller, perhaps stop-gap measures that will help people. Oh that's right, they can't, for whatever reason, do that...
:banghead:

[debbierlus]

1. You are.

[liberal_at_heart]

2. fear mongering is what works best in this country

How do you think we ended up in Iraq? I for one will not buy into the fear mongering. I will not support a healthcare bill I don't believe in and I won't be bullied into supporting it either.

[emilyg]

13. +1

[lonestarnot]

3. Terra terra terra

booga booga booga!

[Bushknew]

4. Yup, looks like DU has finally ran out of Obama Kool aid.nt

[Jamastiene]

14. A few have hoarded it all and are hanging out in GD: P

They are easy to spot too. The blinders are OFF for the rest.

[EFerrari]

5. It's not even very good blackmail.

In order to blackmail someone, they have to be afraid of losing something. The threat presented is already happening. What do we have left to lose?

[G_j]

6. exactly, what is the word for THAT? nt

[chill_wind]

7. Defund the endless PermaWar spending gluttony.

If we're seriously worried about going bankrupt. This is starting to feel like Condi Rice's nukes raining down on Texas if we don't act **right now**.

[JVS]

8. The thing is that we're all going to die horrible deaths and be fucked over by medical bankruptcy...

with it anyway. This bill just makes us pay annual tribute until this happens.

[leftstreet]

9. This will backfire

In order for this OH NOES! Economic Terra! to work people need to feel they have something to lose.

K&R

[BzaDem]

10. When did you get the idea that you WEREN'T being blackmailed?

People talk about these negotiations as if it was ever possible to get a bill through the Senate that wasn't a "sell-out" in many respects. I don't know if people don't understand history or what. But practically the entire POINT of the senate was to require these kinds of compromises that are basically "selling out." Obama knew this from the getgo, as did many people here.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't pass it. If you don't like the political system, you should advocate for change of the political system (such as a Constitutional amendment). In the meantime though, don't take your anger out on the 30 million people that will be helped by this "sell-out."

[G_j]

11. well, the first "reform" should have been real campaign finance reform,

because you are correct, all legislation is up for sale. It's hard to expect differently.

[BzaDem]

15. The Supreme Court is about to rule all campaign finance reform as unconstitutional.

It will happen sometime next month; there are absolutely 5 Republican votes to do so and an opinion in that case is expected next month.

Given that, it will require a Constitutional amendment to enact campaign finance reform. That means 2/3 of both houses of Congress. That means something like 33 Senators representing 15% of the US population can block such an amendment.

And if it passes both houses of Congress by a 2/3 vote, then 3/4 of the states will have to vote for it. Even the ERA couldn't meet this threshold, and that had huge, bipartisan support.

The truth is, as disgusting as it is, campaign finance reform is gone (at least until the makeup of the Supreme Court changes dramatically). Entirely gone.

Legislation is going to remain "up for sale." There is almost literally nothing that can be done about this phenomenon.

Given that, I want us to insure 30 million people (and ban discrimination on the basis of pre-existing conditions) while we still have the chance.

[G_j]

17. that might be the worst news I've heard in a long time!

There goes probably the only chance of reviving a breath of life into American democracy.
There is barely any sense left.

So your opinion is that there is no possibility of smaller stop-gap measures that can be enacted?
Thanks for your input.

[BzaDem]

20. Stop-gap measures? What do you mean?

If you are talking about campaign finance reform, I don't think much can be done if the Supreme Court makes a constitutional ruling.

If you are talking about healthcare, you cannot ban discrimination on the basis of pre-existing conditions without 60 votes. If you have that ban, you need a mandate (or there will be an adverse-selection induced premium death spiral), and if you have a mandate, you need subsidies to make it affordable (hence the 900 billion to help 30 million buy health insurance). It all fits together and must go together for any of it to work.

[G_j]

23. yes, healthcare

thanks, appreciated. where do you get your info?

[BzaDem]

24. I try to follow people like Jonathan Cohn on TNR, Paul Krugman, etc.

These people understand healthcare economics really well (and are all quite liberal).

[Sebastian Doyle]

27. And you can thank your bosses at the DLC for that.

They helped get Chimpy in the White House and told their senators to do nothing to oppose the nomination of a complete corporatist piece of shit like John Roberts, who had never even SEEN the back side of ANY court bench before 2003. as the Supreme Court Chief Justice.

Thanks Al From, Bruce Reed, Will Marshall, and the rest of you worthless Repuke enabling cowards. :grr:

[BzaDem]

28. "Your bosses"

Do you realize how stupid you sound? You don't know me. You have no way of knowing my employer.

If I worked for the DLC or supported them in any way, why the hell would I come here? The DLC's goal is to diminish progressive influence, not to increase it. The DLC's goal is not to insure 30 million people. The DLC's goal is not to ban discrimination on the basis of pre-existing conditions. The DLC's goal is not to ban insurance companies from spending less than 85% of their revenue on actual medical expenses. The DLC wouldn't want any of that, as it would be extensive and punishing regulation on insurance companies and a massive expenditure of the US to help people in need.

You would sound much less ignorant if you actually tried to factually rebut what people say, rather than making things up about who they work for.

[PassingFair]

34. Hahahahaha!

Forced mandates and no cost control!

No. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Of course the DLC and the insurance
industry aren't in bed together on
this.

:puke:

[jberryhill]

12. Name one /nt

[JDPriestly]

16. Don't worry. G_J. Obama has staked his reputation on getting a bill.

If the liberal senators and representatives refuse to vote for a bill that has no public option and no Medicare buy-in, that is no alternatives to the greed of the private insurance companies and therefore no pressure on the prices charged by those companies, liberals will get their way. Obama can push if he has to. He honestly thought he could hoodwink liberals cause we're just so nice and naive. It's not going to work. We have alternatives to Obama. And we can get those alternatives elected. But next time, we have to have a candidate who is more specific about what he or she is going to do once in office and who the candidate will choose for the cabinet.

Edwards was actually much more up-front and detailed about his plans than any other candidate. He published a huge internet book on it long before any other candidate. Shame he was so flawed.

I worked for Edwards and found one of his campaign hand-outs yesterday.

He was the one who promised to cover all Americans and to take away Congress's plan if they did not pass a health care reform bill within 6 months of his taking office. A lot of people said he could not do that, but actually, I believe that the congressional health care deal and the federal employee's health care deal may be administered by a department that is under the president's control (some sort of personnel office) -- and that he could have commenced revision of the regulations without an Act of Congress.

Reviewing Edwards' policy stands, they were much stronger and more liberal than Obama's. That is why I supported Edwards in the first place.

[G_j]

26. Edwards was my Senator

we clashed big time about the Iraq war, He is/was a hawk.
But I do believe he was serious, even sincere in his commitment to class equality.
Talk about socialism!

[JDPriestly]

38. So sad about his infidelity.

I know it sounds stupid, but this Rielle Hunter had an interesting past. I do think that politicians need to realize that they are targets for scheming women and opponents.

Edwards was rather needing approval. His wife is a very sensible person. Along comes a woman who flatters the country boy to the core. It almost looks like a set-up. Maybe it was. We will never know.

[Kansas Wyatt]

35. Wonder if that's why Edwards held out on endorsing Obama?

Edwards certainly had the better approach to the Insurance Industry... GET OUT!

[WT Fuheck]

18. your feeling is authentic and accurate

[G_j]

19. thanks

welcome to DU
:hi:

[WT Fuheck]

21. thank you.

It's a pickle, trying to advocate for real change, but knowing that this bill ain't it.

The argument that we can pass something and then improve it is as stupid as anything I ever heard, even during bush's 8 years. The Democrats will have fewer votes after Nov 2010. As incompetent (or bought off) as they are, they wouldn't be able to keep whatever they pass now, much less improve it.

[G_j]

22. I can't read, however many pages, and understand them and their ramifications.

neither do I have time to keep up with all of it, aside from a multitude of articles, blogs etc. I find here and elsewhere, I effectively decided long ago that I would look to Kucinich, Sanders and Dean for some sense of reality.

[BzaDem]

30. Those three will probably split over this bill.

Sanders will vote for it (or at least vote to end the filibuster, allowing it to pass). Kucinich will probably not vote for it (though he wouldn't be the deciding vote), and Dean wants to kill it.

Just keep in mind that the difference between Dean/Kucinich and many bill proponents isn't ideology. Most people here agree with Dean and Kucinich about what to do if it were possible. The difference (and the source of hostility) is what to do given that what Dean and Kucinich want is not possible in the current Congress. Dean doesn't think covering 30 million people is worth it because it does it completely through private insurers. On the other hand, bill proponents are willing to cover 30 million people through private insurers if that is the only way to help the 30 million people get healthcare (though they would much prefer it if government could be an option).

[eridani]

25. There is no reason to accept being force-fed poison ivy salad just because

--it has a nice balsamic vinaigrette dressing on it. What about just bottling the latter and peddling it straight?

[BzaDem]

29. ... because we don't have the votes for the dressing without the poison ivy?

And the dressing would help 30 million people more than any other bill passed since Medicare in 1965?

[readmoreoften]

31. "Help" 30 million people buy a for-profit product.

Let's be clear, they're not getting CARE, they're getting accepted into a protection racket with additional costs attached.

[G_j]

36. a protection racket

it sure is sounding like that

[eridani]

32. Forcing people to buy a shitty useless product is "helping" them?

Forcing people to pay ransom to mass murderers is "helping" them?

[slipslidingaway]

33. You are not alone - knr n/t

[NorthCarolina]

37. A more concise way to put it may be "Railroaded by the DLC" nt