The Public Face of DU Today

[MineralMan]

Just as an exercise, I went to both the Greatest Page and the Home page on DU, something I rarely do. I suggest everyone do that today. Right now, both are dominated with anti-Obama threads. Both look like the site is an anti-Obama site.

People first coming to DU often land on one of those two pages, the Home page, in particular.

People are recommending the anti-Obama posts by the hundreds, and they're not being countered by others unrecommending those pages. If that's the overall sentiment of the forum, then it's an accurate representation. However, if people who support Obama are simply not registering that support by unrecommending truly anti-Obama threads, it may well not be an accurate representation of DU.

So, go and take a look at the Greatest Page and the Home page. See whether you agree with how the site looks from the point of view of your opinion. DU users control what goes on those pages with their choices to recommend or unrecommend individual threads.

I'm not telling anyone what to click, but take a look for yourself and make your own decisions.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HopeHoops]

2. Well said - the OP that is, not comment #1.

On Edit: clarified that the "well said" referred to the OP.

[Last Stand]

181. If being pro-Democrat is being Anti-Obama , what does that tell you? nt.

[Hutzpa]

3. K&R

:kick:

[tekisui]

4. They aren't anti-Obama. It isn't personal. They are pro-liberal policies.

People first coming to DU will see that we aren't a bunch of blind, lock-stepping party-liners.

[MineralMan]

9. Is that what they'll see? Did you visit the two pages I mentioned?

[tekisui]

Yes, I saw a lot of posts supporting Democrats.

Standing with Dean, standing with Sanders, railing against Lieberman, liking KO and Ed.

It looks like a site supportive of Democrats and liberal policies.

[sabrina 1]

166. This is the real reaction of people who worked

hard to get Democrats into power and to end the Republican/Corporate takeover of this country.

Go to any progressive board today or even talk to people in real life, and the reaction is the same.

The blatant disregard for what the people want, on the bail-outs of Wall St., the escalation of a war that cannot be 'won'. But even after those two issues, people were still hoping that what they were seeing wasn't a betrayal, hard to do, but some of us tried.

But this health care bill with Obama handing over the PEOPLE'S money, money they don't have, to an industry that is corrupt to the core, and using of all people Joe Lieberman, to push it forward without even a crumb for the people, this was the last straw.

That is what you are seeing. I think even for former apologists, which I was too for a while, the situation has reached critical mass. It's just impossible to defend this anymore. They've run out of excuses and 'boogie men' threats won't work now.

We are talking about issues that mean life and death to millions of people, here and in Afghanistan. Do you really think people are going to put the career of any politician ahead of that?

Check out Daily Kos yesterday, Huffington Post, all over the internet, thousands of comments, too many to read, but if the Democrats do not get the message, that the people are just furious and can no longer be tossed aside as they have been, while Obama meets secretly with his buddies in Big Business, they will be guilty of one more travesty, a Republican Majority in 2010 and the WH in 2012. And that is the most unforgivable 'crime' of all.

The final nail in this coffin was Obama trashing Dean while embracing Lieberman. I don't know if he can recover from that.

[Aviation Pro]

13. Which gives the other side lotsaandlotsa of ammunition for....

....2010 and 2012.

[tekisui]

21. Are you suggesting we keep any criticisms of the WH off DU?

The place would be mind-numbingly boring. Are we to be afraid of what we say out of fear that the right-wing will use it?

[leeroysphitz]

72. President Obama and the Democratic leadership gave them that ammo. Not us.

You are confusing the effect for the cause.

[NJmaverick]

37. Oh the venom and vitriol on some of the posts would indicate it's personal

[MineralMan]

46. So it has seemed to me in the past couple of weeks.

It seems very personal. Personally, I want a single-payer system and have said so many times. It's quite clear that such a system is not possible at this time, given the current state of the Congress. I will take the end of pre-existing conditions, subsidies for those who cannot afford insurance, and some of the other measures in this bill as a stop-gap measure, since single-payer is not possible politically.

As always, politics is the art of the possible. The impossible isn't a feasible position for any political leader.

We have the Congress we have. I think all of our efforts should go to improve it. In the meantime, we can solve some problems. Later, we can solve some more. That's how it has gone for as long as I can remember.

[NJmaverick]

88. I think it's more than the current state of Congress. I think large numbers of Americans have been

convinced (against their own interests) that socialized or one party payer medicine would mean the end of the world as they know it. Part of what needs to be done is the winning of hearts and minds.

[Raineyb]

190. I'm pretty sure that when people who consider this bill a matter of life and death

take it pretty personally. And when they're in essence told fuck you your life means nothing they'd get pretty pissed. I don't blame them one bit.

A bill that makes things worse overall while making a few loophole laden fixes along the edges just isn't going to cut it. Why would they have any faith of things being improved down the line? That belief is not in keeping with the reality of the history of this country.

[harun]

78. +1, it's pro-Liberal not anti-Obama.

[treestar]

80. There are plenty of posts blaming Obama directly

And you're right, we aren't lock steppers, and that is why we can have 58 Senators and still not get exactly what we want.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

91. Twice in the last week or so people have posted that Obama should get the "French Revolution"

treatment. Those posts got recs until they were locked and/or removed.

What do you think that is? Liberal policy?

On edit: I'm sorry, make that four times. Two more just popped up.

[tekisui]

182. Obviously those go too far.

I don't think that has a place here. Yet, like you pointed out, they get removed or locked.

[fascisthunter]

99. thank you... and it makes DU look principled

rather than a place to make excuses for democratic politicians.

[kctim]

110. Yep

"People first coming to DU will see that we aren't a bunch of blind, lock-stepping party-liners"

Who are pissed off because the entire Democratic Party is not in lock-step with them.

[madfloridian]

5. The WH just picked a fight with Dean and gave Lieberman the party.

So what the hell did you think would happen.

[asdjrocky]

6. I think the whole problem here is-

DU is full of pesky peace and truth lovin' LIBERALS! See, it's more about WHAT and WHY and HOW with us, not WHO.

[MercutioATC]

15. Hell, I'm a centrist and I have issues with recent decisions too.

One doesn't have to be ultra-liberal to see problems.

[asdjrocky]

28. If you are a thinking centrist, how could you not?

[dmallind]

50. Ditto - I'm not yelling about betrayal and the end of the party/president though

I'm certainly disappointed in the health care endgame. I always knew full well that there would be compromise, and opposition from Dems and Reps alike. I had a bit more faith than was rewarded on this occasion in the WH's ability to shape the debate and put us over the edge. I'm not taking this as evidence that the WH will never be able to achieve anything, let alone that they are some silly half-baked notion like "corporatist shills", but they didn't impress me much that's for sure.

For the record other disappointments would include:

Iraq drawdown. I understand, heck support, an Afghanistan deployment, but Iraq should be able to start taking more and more responsibility for itself by now. If not, then that means we lack the ability to train and support national forces, which is kind of the idea in Afghanistan...

Full review of all Bush signing statements. I'm no pipe-dreamer who expected him to eliminate all sweeping powers takien in the name of fighting terra, but surely he could have given a few up by now

Lukewarm at best support of gay marriage initiatives and lack of movement on DADT reform. This one should be an easy win distracting very little from anything else. It will rile up teabaggers, but what would the difference be?

[MercutioATC]

61. He's done good, too. Foreign relations have definitely improved.

However, whether it's his refusal to address DADT and NAFTA or his support of this crappy health care legislation, I'll comment on it.

He's not the Antichrist, but he's also not living up to some of his important campaign promises.

[Ignis]

123. And that does you great credit.

:patriot:

I'd just like to see more Democrats read our own party platform before they call the Leftish among us "radicals" and whatnot. We're simply trying to keep the actions of our elected officials in line with that published platform. Who else will do it if we do not?

[dmallind]

165. That does work both ways though

For example I have seen many posts saying "real Dems" oppose civilian ownership of guns for self defense. That exact wording is in the platform as something we support.

As, of course, is a public option.

I'm pretty centrist too, even a Blue Dog in purely fiscal terms. Other than a few minor niggles I support the party platform. It's not really a hyper-progressive document, and was put together by the real base - dedicated party activists elected by other dedicated party activists.

[Ignis]

179. Fair enough. But see this from the 2008 platform:

Covering All Americans and Providing Real Choices
of Affordable Health Insurance Options.
Families and individuals should have the option of keeping the coverage they have or choosing from a wide array of health insurance plans, including many private health insurance options and a public
plan. Coverage should be made affordable for all Americans with subsidies provided through tax credits and other means.

Is it any wonder that even centrists are upset with the current bill?

[dmallind]

183. Yes - nixing the PO was a bad move. NT

[NJmaverick]

68. Just ask Howard Dean

[asdjrocky]

115. What does that mean?

If you're saying Howard Dean believes in the truth, then yes, I agrees.

[NJmaverick]

132. Now I am pointing out that your claims of who being unimportant was wrong

one needs only look at the greatest page to get a heaping dose of Howard Dean hero worship (sadly this isn't even hyperbole as there is at least one thread calling him a great hero).

[asdjrocky]

137. Oh I don't call anyone a hero.

And I certainly don't worship any on or anything. I value the truth and when I find someone who tells the truth consistantly, then I will value that person.

On the other hand, empty promises and lies just make me crazy.

[MercutioATC]

7. I think "anti-Obama" is overly-generalized and inaccurate.

There are a lot of threads criticizing Obama's actions and/or performance...specifically dealing with his recent decisions.

That's not "anti-Obama", it's commentary based on recent events...which is what we're supposed to be doing here. If the actions were different, the responses would be different.

[NJmaverick]

69. Constructive Criticism is allowed and most threads fail to meet even the weakest standards

[MercutioATC]

95. I disagree...but, then, you knew I would.

People are speaking their minds, which is exactly what's supposed to happen here.

This is no more an "anti-Obama" site now than it was a "pro-Obama" site immediately after the election. It's a political commentary site. The commentary varies with the political situation.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MercutioATC]

113. Not every post on DU has to be "constructive criticism", commentary is permitted.

...as is the expression of opinion.

Is your goal simply to ban opinions that take issue with Obama's actions from DU?

[NJmaverick]

118. My goals

to see the "constructive criticism only" rule enforced

to see DU once again be a positive and supportive Democratic website

to see DU once again be the perfect foil to freeper land

to come to DU to find potive Democratic information I can use when debating right wingers or republicans

to be able to once again come to DU to get away from the venom and vitriol that is spewed 24X7 against the Dems and the Democratic President by right wingers, GOPers using the right wing controlled media


Finally and most important to never ever allow what happened during the Bush years to ever happen again.

What exactly are your goals?

[lukasahero]

134. "never ever allow what happened during the Bush years" What in particular?

Because there's still a whole lot of crap going on that happened during those years.

So what part, in particular of the Bush years are you willing to stop from happening under this administration? Wire taps? War? Unfettered greed? Allowing the rich to get richer off the backs of the poor and middle class? The corporatization of the US?

[NJmaverick]

142. Wars started, the destruction of our economy, the torture in our name

the destruction of the Supreme Court as a protector of our rights and liberties (a biggie for me).

[MercutioATC]

135. Can you explain how YOUR posts in this thread constitute "constructive criticism"?

"A guy who appears to be getting payback for being snubbed for a cabinet post is not someone I would describe as a hero. His running of the DNC on the other hand, was quite skillful."

"Ignoring all the people that will die with out the bill, is not what I would call heroic but payback would be a more fitting term."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7252672#7252690

...or your Dean comments in this very thread...


It seems that you're less interested in seeing the "constructive criticism only" rule enforced than you are in banning opposing views. Otherwise, you'd be abiding by that rule yourself.


As far as my goals, I'd like DU to remain the melting pot (occasionally a boiling melting pot) of ideas it is where people discuss different paths to a generally common goal. I do NOT want it to become an intolerant partisan website.

[NJmaverick]

144. Well the argument is that Dean is some sort of folk hero while Obama is a black hat wearing

mustache twisting villian. I am pointing out that Dean's motives may not be as pure as many are claiming. In fact his comments about Obama's 2012 prospects would tend to support my position.

[MercutioATC]

156. Do you honestly not see the double standard?

Claims that Dean is "bitter" or acting out of need for "payback" are fine, but claims that Obama is a "sellout" are not?

Really?

[reflection]

130. Agreed. I see the prevailing sentiment here as "anti-policy,"

though there are some exceptions.

[MercutioATC]

139. There are always exceptions. SOME people have become a little vitriolic.

...but they're the minority.

[Tigermoose]

8. K & R

This board has become ruled by the mob.

[azmouse]

10. Sadly it IS the face of DU today.

It's no place for the people that support the President.
It also must be what the owner of this site wants or he would put a stop to it.
Time for many of us to move on.

[dionysus]

93. don't let tantrum throwers drive you away.

it's too bad, i made it through 8 years of bush on DU, and in one year later the joint turns to shambles...

:(

[azmouse]

103. I had my "goodbye" letter typed up this morning

then I saw this OP and a few others. It gives me some small hope for DU yet.

[dionysus]

111. don't leave and don't do the goodbye letter thing. when people do that it just makes them gloat.

:hi:

[azmouse]

124. Oh I wouldn't have posted it in GD.

I would have talked to and wished the best to the Barack Obama Group. Nice people there.

But it is time for a break from DU again. Take care. :hi:

[dionysus]

157. you too!

[NJmaverick]

94. I have noticed that Skinner tends to be a patient man who doesn't rush into things

I am not giving up hope that he will reclaim the site for Democrats and Democratic causes.

[azmouse]

104. I pray you are correct.

[freddie mertz]

11. Obama has abandoned us. What do you expect?

We aren't all pods yet.

[Aviation Pro]

20. Really. Abandoned 'us,' you say.....

...by 'us' what do you mean? Because he certainly hasn't abandoned the American people (unlike Two Shoes McFuckstick who abandoned 50% of the electorate). Me thinks that the 'us' is equivalent to the small fringe ball garglers on the other side of the fence.

I suggest the 'us' pull their collective heads out of their asses.

[freddie mertz]

34. The american people. The people who voted for him.

The ones who believed him when he said he supported true HCR.

And don't talk to me about asses.

As the guy from TYT has said, "It must be crowded in there."

[Luminous Animal]

35. Then I expect that he will veto the bill.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/07/obama-demands-the-bill-i-sign-must-include-public-option.php

"ny plan I sign must include an insurance exchange: a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans - including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest - and choose what's best for your family."

[QC]

12. People often react angrily to betrayal. n/t

[Frances]

43. Yes, people often react angrily to betrayal

A lot of DUers are so angry that they refuse to use their heads.

Why are the Repubs and Murdoch of Fox doing EVERYTHING they can to keep any bill from being passed?

Because they know a poor bill is better than no bill. They don't want the Dems to open the door to reform because once the door is open, then real reform can happen. Ted Kennedy regretted voting against a poor bill earlier in his career for that very reason.

Also, if NO bill is passed now, then no Dem President will ever try again. They will say that the immensely politically gifted Clintons failed, Obama failed, and they will not risk trying.

No bill means the Dems lose in 2010 and in 2012 and the country will be back in the hands of Repubs, only this time it will be even worse, just as W was much worse than Reagan.

The purists won't take any more responsibility than the Nader supporters took in 2000. They would rather complain than deal with reality.

[QC]

92. I fear that this bill will so discredit the very idea of health care reform,

if it passes, that no one will ever touch it again.

That's the problem. Sometimes something really isn't better than nothing.

[David Zephyr]

106. Yes.

This has all boiled down to the desire by Obama to sign something and declare a victory even if saddles Americans with a burden for generations.

That's sheer, naked personal ambition instead of governance.

This bill should be taken down.

And the whining about the Greatest Pages is another attempt to silence dissent.

[Fire1]

186. Hear! Hear!! eom

[rudy23]

14. Maybe Obama should stop shitting on his base then, huh?

If he doesn't like what we have to say about him, maybe he should start acting like someone who cares what we think!

[RainDog]

30. exactly. n/t

[NJmaverick]

178. How about his supposed base stops shitting on Obama?

[Fire1]

188. Ditto, maverick. n/t

[Number23]

198. He's on a roll today, isn't he??

:)

[FSogol]

16. Thanks for trying. Sadly many people around here need to put on their

big boy or big girl panties and go on with their day.

[walldude]

63. And some need to take off the blinders..

I cannot for the life of me see how anyone could see the crap Axelrod and Gibbs were spewing this morning and not have it insult their intelligence. Like the bill or not.

[Moochy]

17. Home page gave me the vapors!

[tridim]

18. DU has become a sad, depressing and embarrasing place

It's completely out of conrol. DU 2009 is nothing like the DU of the past. Not even close.

I feel bad for Skinner, who is probably just as worried as I am.

[azmouse]

22. If the owner of the site was worried

he would have done something about the bs by now.
This must be what he wants for his site.

[MineralMan]

33. I don't think so. Skinner's pretty adamant about allowing a

full range of discussion here. The domination of the forum by some members was the reason for the unrecommend feature being added...to provide a little more balance on those very public pages. Either it's not being used or the site truly has shifted. I'm not certain.

[azmouse]

38. It's shifted.

Many supporters of the President have left.
I don't blame them.

[NJmaverick]

76. I have noticed that as well, many good Democrats have dissappeared

probably tired of all the venom and vitriol directed at the President and the Dems in congress

[rudy23]

23. I think the difference is that before, we had hope that once we got into power things would change

Now we're seeing the fruits of our labor go to waste--and it's actually working against us.

I remember in '04 how hopeful we all were for this country once Bush's policies were a thing of the past. We didn't expect to have to still fight against them with a Democratic President and Congress.

[tridim]

32. If DU were like this in 04, Kerry would have been trashed during the entire campaign.

There is very little rationality and reality discussed here any more. It's a fucking snipe-fest.

[azmouse]

41. +1

[dionysus]

100. ding ding ding

[Number23]

199. I'm curious what you think the difference here is between '04 and now??

Why do you think that Kerry was treated differently? Why was he not trashed and every move Obama makes is?? Is it because Obama won?

I'm serious. I don't get any of this and I'd like to know beyond what my cynical minds tells me.

[treestar]

101. God that is such an exaggeration

It's appalling.

[NJmaverick]

60. I agree and I share you feelings

imagine working so hard to build a board that is the perfect foil to sites like the Free Republic, a site that helps to get Democrats elected, a place for Democrats to get ammunition to use against the right wingers/GOPers (or to just get away from them for awhile) only to see it turn into this.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

84. Meh.

I don't think he cares anymore.

[BurtWorm]

19. I ran a poll yesterday to see how people in this forum approved of Obama's job performance

and the overwhelming majority strongly disapproved. People are angry and feel betrayed, leaderless, unvindicated, taken for granted. It is an anti-Obama site today because Obama hasn't done much to earn our loyalty, appreciation, let alone our audacity to hope.

PS: link to poll

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7242381

[NJmaverick]

42. The situation can also be explained by a lack of patience, perspective

and understanding. An over reliance on emotion if you will.

[BurtWorm]

149. How much more patience were we supposed to have?

We waited patiently for a full year, watching them slice the public option down to size. Even when they were finally able to fit it into a bathtub, we waited and supported. Even Howard Dean waited and supported. Of course the next thing they did was to drown it in the tub. Now what are we supposed to wait for? What kind of saps do they expect us to be?

[Luminous Animal]

24. Your post is inaccurate.

The public face of DU reveals anger at the health insurance bill.

[NJmaverick]

48. I would prefer reason over anger

[Luminous Animal]

71. There are plenty of reasonable arguments highlighted on The Greatest

In fact, the majority of the OPs are reasonable assessments.

[NJmaverick]

79. It's extremely rare to see reason mixed with anger

It seems highly unlikely then that your characterization is accurate.

[Luminous Animal]

102. It's easy enough to check for yourself.

[NJmaverick]

49. I would prefer reason over anger

[Tansy_Gold]

25. I think we made our decisions when we clicked "rec" for those threads

Sorry they aren't the threads you'd have chosen. If you don't like it, you can always go somewhere else.

I'm not fond of the unrec feature because I think it's too often used by childish beavis-and-butthead types who do it just because they can, but I've also noticed that when people feel really strongly about something, it tends to get recced to the front page.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/02/09/prepared_remarks_of_senator_barack_obama?mode=PF

Jillan posted this link over in a GD thread and I'm spreading it around. Take note of the date on it, and then ask yourself if maybe there's a reason some of us are mightily disappointed in what's been done in Washington this past 13+ months.


TG2012

[harun]

85. Exactly, they can go splash around in the puddles of cash at www.dlc.org

if they don't like it here.

[treestar]

26. They've really made this board into something freepers must love

If I were a freeper I'd really be enjoying this board right now.

[RainDog]

27. Obama is acting against the interests of the American people

and in favor of insurance cos.

if he wants support, he can act in ways that garner it.

otherwise, it is ridiculous to suggest that people who support progressive policies support a president who does not act in their interests.

this site is not a subsidiary of the "Obama no matter what he does" faction in this nation. maybe Obama and the democrats SHOULD SEE what their constituents think about their actions.

[progressoid]

29. It's called Democratic UNDERGROUND. You expected unapologetic unquestioning support for any and all

things Democratic?

[NJmaverick]

56. What was that first word again? Would that tend to iindicate a general support for the Democrats?

[progressoid]

82. Sure. As soon as they start acting like Democrats they'll get my support.

Well, let me rephrase. I should say, when they start PERFORMING like Democrats. Right now all they are doing is acting. I'd like to see some good old fashioned bleeding-heart liberal policy.

[NJmaverick]

87. The Democratic party is bigger than just the liberal wing

[progressoid]

114. Here...

From "About DU"

Democratic Underground (DU) was founded on Inauguration Day, January 20, 2001...to provide a resource for the exchange and dissemination of liberal and progressive ideas. Since then, DU has become one of the premier left-wing websites on the Internet, publishing original content six days a week, and hosting one of the Web's most active left-wing discussion boards...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/about.html


So to find people from the liberal wing of the party protesting centrist and center-right policies from Democrats shouldn't be a big surprise or even unwelcome.

[NJmaverick]

121. Here this is higher up and presumably more important

We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals.

[progressoid]

138. Not saying Democrats of all stripes aren't welcome

But the OP seemed concerned that 'Public Face of DU' should be so anti-Obama. Seems perfectly natural to me. It appears that this administration and most Democrats today are not as liberal as many of the members of this site. That's simple enough.


And by the way your quote is further down. Not higher up.

[whatchamacallit]

31. Don't really give a shit about "keeping up appearances"

It's about issues and the direction of the country, not what the neighbors might think.

[PassingFair]

36. Wanting to kill a bill is not the same thing as being "AntiObama"

This is a BAD bill. It SHOULD be killed.

I'm not saying that MOST people who WATCH THESE THINGS
want this bill killed.....


"...but take a look for yourself and make your own decisions."

[NJmaverick]

86. No but no Obama 2012 is, as is Obama is a traitor, as is Obama is horrible

as is help get him out of office. I figure if this goes on much longer calls for impeachment will be popping up soon.

[PassingFair]

112. That's not what I see when I click on the home page.

I see acknowledgment of Howard Dean telling the
truth about the Health Care Bill.

[NJmaverick]

125. The Obama sell out thread? Did you miss that?

or the Obama is aweful thread (for being critical of Howard Dean) thread did you miss that? There's more than one of those so they are hard to miss. How about one of the ever popular "Obama has betrayed us" threads?

[PassingFair]

143. He reaps what he sows.

And the vast majority of those threads
are concerning the Health Care Bill,
NOT Obama in particular.

[JohnnyLib2]

39. Here's a toast to anonymity.

:toast:

I hear very, very little of this IRL, thankfully.

[MineralMan]

51. Neither do I. We have a very small minority who are unwilling

to understand that everything political is compromise. Most people realize that. Some refuse to.

[NJmaverick]

98. I have heard a few comments like this, but mostly they are more mature and thoughful IRL

[Number23]

200. "I hear very, very little of this IRL, thankfully."

Exactly. Like you said, here's to blissful, unaccountable anonymity. :toast:

[NJmaverick]

40. It's a complete and utter disgrace

although I am sure if they visited it would bring a smile to the faces of people like Rush Limbaugh, Glen Back, Anne Coulter, Michelle Bauchman, Michael Steele and anyone else who's goals are made easier by removing a site that once was dedicated to stopping them and their goals.

[whatchamacallit]

44. Who is "they" and who are you trying to impress? (n/t)

[NJmaverick]

52. Unlike many I am not trying to "impress" anyone. I am trying my best though

to keep the reigns of power out of the hands of the GOP

[whatchamacallit]

62. To many of us it seems they still hold them. (n/t)

[jonnyblitz]

45. yes, not all of us are personality cult loons . many of us actually

care about the (((ISSUES))).

I swear the only reason many here didn't like Bush is because he was a republican. If he was a Democrat I can picture many of you making the same excuses for him as you do for the overrated Obama.

[NJmaverick]

53. Are you talking about the Howard Dean personality cult?

[MineralMan]

57. No, I think it's the Kucinich cult.

I have no cult. We have a President, who was elected in what many call a landslide. We have a Congress that is, well, less than stellar on the Democratic side. So, instead of blaming Congress, we blame President Obama. The logic simply doesn't follow.

[janx]

70. Agreed! n/t

[Frances]

129. I agree that it's illogical to blame Obama

for what Lieberman, Nelson, and others have done.

There are rules in Congress, 60 votes being one of them.

Some DUers don't seem to understand that.

Rather than do something constructive like organize a campaign that focuses on changing the 60 vote rule, or on Lieberman's flip-flops on Medicare buy-in, or on some issue like lifetime or yearly caps that insurance companies put on people (and saying that Repubs are, in essence, voting for these caps), they attack Dems. I think some Dems are too AFRAID of Republicans to put the blame where it belongs.

Rupert Murdoch must be laughing all the way to the bank.

[NJmaverick]

146. I'm sure and making his wish list for when the GOP returns to power

[Raineyb]

195. 60 votes is a cop out.

A simple majority is 51 last I checked we still had 100 senators. And there's absolutely no reason why the threshold to break a filibuster cannot be lowered to say 55 which would cut the rug out from under LIEberman, Landrieu, and the Nelsons. But instead we get this pathetic excuse making about how we need 60 votes. The Republicans didn't give a shit about needing 60 they managed to ram their shit through with less (and of course with the help of the same corporate Dems who are helping the Republicans now)

We don't need 60 votes and if the Democrats were really at all interested in passing a decent bill they would have made sure to change the rules to eliminate this very problem in the first place. That they don't now just shows they don't give a bloody damn and just want to pass a bill so they can go home for Christmas. Well that's all well and good for them, they have health insurance and it's a hell of a lot better than a lot of us get in this country. They aren't worrying about rising rates and choosing between rent and being able to pay for meds or for a doctor's visit. This is all academic for them yet for those for whom this is literally life and death we have the kiss ass brigade making excuses and slamming progressives for daring to insist on a bill that actually does no harm and actually FIXES what's wrong rather than damning people to slavery and destitution by having to fork over nearly a fifth of their income to a company that may or may not pay the bill should they actually need to use the damn thing.

And the people being complained about around here are the Progressives? Ridiculous!

What's more important the bloody party or the PEOPLE? I know what my answer is to that question I guess my question to those who insist on tearing down those who have issues with this bill and how things have been going so far is what's yours?

[SidDithers]

47. K&R...

I don't really have a horse in the race, one way or the other, so I've stayed out of the HCR discussions. That said, the "fuck Obama" posts are a bit much, even for this place.

Sid

[MineralMan]

67. Those posts get pulled if someone alerts on them.

At least the ones that say it outright in the title.

[Fire1]

189. Not all of them. I've alerted and they remain. n/t

[Pirate Smile]

54. People who aren't anti-Obama are going to find other places to find information.

The anti-Obama people want this to be an anti-Obama site.

I was wondering how FDR and LBJ would have gotten SS or Medicare through Congress in this kind of atmosphere. I doubt they could except they had much larger #'s of Dems in Congress so they could lose some Dems where Reid has to hold every single one. LBJ also had memo's on Medicare talking about passing it with 55 votes. We could pass a very different Bill with 55 votes but that doesn't work anymore(and no Reconcilliation doesn't work for everything we need to do).

Pelosi passed HCR out of the House with 50.5% of the votes and she had to make the odious Stupak compromise to do it. She was able to lose 39 Democrats while doing it.

Reid has to pass HCR out of the Senate with 60% of the votes. He can't afford to lose any Democrats (and Independents). Is he having to make odious compromises to do it? No doubt.

Should we be surprised? Of course not.

There is a reason this hasn't been done before. Acting like Obama could have a much more progressive bill but he just isn't trying seems irrational to me. Democrats are doing what we always do. Undermining ourselves. The left wants to be able to scare Democrats as much at the right scares Republicans. The right does that because they act irrational. Republicans realize that. I see a lot of negotiating tactics and power plays going on to try to influence the bill but a lot of damage is being done.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

55. You sound like a classic abuse victim. Smile to the world, while you're

being battered. I think not.

[MineralMan]

59. Please don't attempt to psychoanalise me. You're not

competent to do that. It's impolite, as well.

[EFerrari]

73. You have been reading your own posts to this thread, right?

LOL

OSO is right. That is how the OP reads and an MD isn't needed to recognize it.

[NJmaverick]

127. Stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

107. And you have a great deal of nerve to post telling DU members to control the way they feel for the

public.

[NJmaverick]

128. True, when it was pointed out that the bill would still save thousands of lives the DU rec squad

soundly unrecced it, showing what is truly important to them.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

136. I haven't had health insurance for well over 10 years and they will probably throw me in jail

for not being able to pay for it. I know that I am not alone.

You are just using another scare tactic used by our abusers so the coffers of the insurance companies can overflow.

[NJmaverick]

145. As opposed to your "I'm gong to jail and you're going to jail" scare tactic?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

150. It's not a tactic at all. What will the government do to those of us who cannot afford

their mandates or their fines?

Aren't your shoulders getting heavy from carrying so much water?

[NJmaverick]

153. Give you subsidies so you can afford to buy it

I suspect my shoulders are doing better than your's are.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

160. Subsidies that will fill the coffers of corrupt insurance companies? Great scam.

As to my shoulders, they're just weary from the battering being given by another corrupt administration. Unlike an enabler, I speak out against my abusers.

[NJmaverick]

167. You have proof to back up those accusations of corruption?

as for victim and abuser, I think you have that all backwards.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

170. When you have an administation that only dealt with execs of health ins and drug companies

and would not meet with single payer advocacy groups, and throw in the boom to the corporations coffers through this bill, what would any reasonable person think?

Keep plugging away though......

[NJmaverick]

175. I'll take that as a no. that you are tossing out baseless accusations

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

180. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/08/09/pacs_and_lobbyists_aided_obamas_rise/

[MineralMan]

174. And you know, if you actually read my OP, I didn't say that.

I pointed out what was on those landing pages. Then, I said, read them and decide for yourself. I didn't tell anyone what they should do.

[EFerrari]

58. HOLY CRAP! There's a bunch of LIBERALS at this site!

:rofl:

[NJmaverick]

64. On the Liberal Underground go figure

:eyes:

[Name removed]

89. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NYC_SKP]

159. There are a Bunch of Bullies, too. n/t

[EFerrari]

164. Posters who personalize rather than address the issues, agreed.

If I wanted that, I could just call up my ex.

lol

[DainBramaged]

65. The true public face of DU

[Tailormyst]

66. They are people putting people, principles andIssueas ahead of party

A party that is quickly showing itself to be bought and paid for and decidedly AGAINST the general public. For an all positive spin site, folks can head to the WH page or perhaps the Obama website.

[HuckleB]

74. I don't think so.

My experience in trying to discuss their complaints is that they are people who haven't looked into the actual policy, but who listen to talking heads and then go forth with rage. That reminds me of the right wing far too much. And it is not what DU was the first few years I posted here.

[EFerrari]

77. Then you haven't been paying attention. There are plenty of people

who have waded through the minutia and who agree with Dr. Dean. But nice broad brush.

[MineralMan]

75. I'm not really sure you have the experience on this site to

be able to say that. Seriously.

[EFerrari]

83. And I'm not sure you have the experience on this site to make that judgment.

Seriously.

[Tailormyst]

116. Ah yes, how dare the new person speak.

Unless she speaks something you agree with, and then she would be made welcome. Good day, Sir.

[NJmaverick]

81. you forgot petty differences and personal agendas on your list

[Tailormyst]

119. Those I don't know about

I do, however, see alot of liberal dems very upset at the Dem leadership taking a decidedly non-liberal path.

[NJmaverick]

122. you should they are the most popular

as for your claims to being a non-liberal path I don't see it.

[dionysus]

90. i laugh at the people claiming with a straight face none of it's personal.

[bigwillq]

96. The tribe has spoken.

Tells you something, doesn't it?

[Nikki Stone1]

97. You're wrong: other than the Dean comment and a blog or two, most of the front page is

Anti health-insurance-mandate-bill. Don't conflate the two.

[NJmaverick]

108. 30% (which is roughly how much is strictly anti HCR bill) would not be considered "most"

[liberal_at_heart]

109. I am new here

I've only been here for a few months. I was hoping to find a liberal democratic message board. For the most part I have found that this board is moderate/conservative democratic. I have thought about leaving, but have decided that I can have a voice here too.

[dcsmart]

117. NICE...K & R

[Tom Rinaldo]

120. Very few of us are motivated by an anti-Obama agenda

We care about policy and how that policy will effect us and America. Any loyalty I might feel for Obama, and I feel some, is dwarfed by my concern for doing what is best for our nation and it's citizens. Policy differences are exactly that, policy differences. And health care reform is a pretty damn important policy to get right and I will not restrain myself from participation in a public debate on it in order not to risk seeming anti-Obama.

[NJmaverick]

126. I am having trouble with the caring about America part. The current bill will save the lives of

thousands of formerly uninsured Americans, yet many here don't care, they are just angry over the loss of the public option and want the bill destroyed. Even though the public option can be added later.

[liberal_at_heart]

140. here we go witht he name calling once again

It's getting pretty old. The insurance industry is writing this bill behind closed doors. We don't even get any public hearings. The insurance companies will make sure there are loopholes at every turn that permits them to keep doing exactly what they are doing now. Only once this bill is passed we will be mandated to buy insurance from them. A public option for all is the only way to create real competition and the insurance companies will never let that happen. So go ahead and tell me how much I don't care about American's lives. I will keep fighting for public option for all.

[Tom Rinaldo]

141. We can't reprise the entire debate in a couple of posts between us here

It is complex with many counterbalancing arguments. As is always the case you undoubtedly will find some posters here, on all sides, who seem reasoned in their arguments to you and others who just seem strident and knee jerk. I do. But there is a real debate going on also between people who do care about what is best for America. At the mega level I have no doubt that Barack Obama and Howard Dean both want what is best for this country. Lots of devilish details and honest disagreements to sort through. This is a public discussion forum and as good a place to attempt that as anywhere.

[NJmaverick]

148. That is a sound and very reasonable position

I think part of the problem is that the bill still helps people and saves lives. It many be much less palatable now then when it had the Public Option but it takes a certain amount of maturity (in the sense of all things maturity brings) to be willing to look past the warts and still support what is good.

[Tom Rinaldo]

162. Just like it takes a lot of maturity to see past the benefits it provides

..to the fundemental mistakes that it enshrines :) Peace.

[NJmaverick]

169. The problem with that position is it assumes other things can't be added at a later date

In incomplete bill can be fixed in time. A failed bill with set back reform for at least a generation.

[Tom Rinaldo]

172. Try this thread if you want a serious discussion of this point:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=67161&mesg_id=67161

[boston bean]

131. Obama is governing anti democratic values, it's not that du is anti obama. nt

[NJmaverick]

133. please list those values that the President is specifically using

[yurbud]

147. another DLC order to vote then shut up and go back to sleep or cheerlead

If we could depend on our pols to do the right things, I would be perfectly happy to do that.

But when they sell us down the river to corporate America, we have to hold them accountable.

[NJmaverick]

151. When you tell a child to act in a more mature manner they will often shout no or stomp their feet or

pout. When you ask an adult to be more patient and to take a more reasoned and mature perspective you get

"don't tell me to shut up!'

"you're a cheerleader!"


More sophisticated wording and framing, but very similar in most respects

[yurbud]

155. When someone is picking your pocket, is it patient and reasonable to hold still?

So they can finish successfully?

[yurbud]

158. patience with Democratic pols means giving them room to be corrupt, fail the public good, then

be mystified why they lose to the party of Charles Manson in Brooks Brothers suits.

[yurbud]

163. if DLC apologists here were making arguments on policy grounds rather than simply ''this is what we

can get the votes for,'' or ''you're making us look bad by criticizing us!'' you would get more respect and a fair hearing. Having read a lot of the DLC stuff though, I don't think you have any content to back up your positions, or at least not to get to the heart of the issue, like why you would prefer a solely private based insurance system instead of a public program to compete with the private. That happened with the postal service in the opposite direction, and probably improved the quality of both the private and public service.

[Egnever]

152. Its embarrassing

and so many of the actual thinking posters that were once here are gone now replaced by knee jerk idiots that are easily lead anywhere the talking heads or politico wants to take them. It's a sad commentary on this site and our country that so many are so easily lead without ever once doing any research on their own.

[NJmaverick]

168. Yes, you're right the thinking posters are being driven away or buried in nonsense or both

[NYC_SKP]

154. *Some* Progressives Here are Blaming Obama for Every Fucking Thing. Like Liebermann.

WTF, dude is NOT in the Senate, He's not even a part of the same branch.

And nobody, not Kucinich or Dean or Hillary, could have budged the blue dogs or the assholes like Lieberman.

AND:

The BULLYING Here by *some* posters, ganging up on sometimes innocent threads, think it's funny.

You Know Who You Are.

And YOU ARE DISGUSTING!!!

Fucking bullies.

[Hatchling]

161. Meh. Just another fancy STFU OP. nt

[NJmaverick]

171. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7252977&mesg_id=7254204

[MineralMan]

176. I told noone to STFU. I asked that they take a look at those

two public landing pages and make a choice. I specifically said that people should make up their own minds. That's hardly saying STFU. I don't say that.

[Vidar]

173. Good. Obama richly deserves the criticism.

[MineralMan]

177. Well....that was interesting...

[Toasterlad]

197. If You're Going to Continue Your Bullshit Cheerleading, You'd Better Get Used to It.

Some of us are actually paying attention to what the man is (or is NOT) doing rather than licking his ass.

[seeinfweggos]

184. the sickest ones are the ones actually bragging about having common purpose with teabaggers

and of course the 'let's start a third party' ones - which are clearly against du rules, but aren't deleted as far as i've noticed.

they really tipped their hand when they started using the same "kill this bill' slogan as their teabagger allies.

[TexasObserver]

185. It's a progressive site, and that's what the Greatest Page shows.

Your characterization is yours. It's only an anti Obama site in your mind. The fact that you think of critical posts regarding the president's waffling as anti Obama tells us you're a loyalist, not a progressive.

If you're uncomfortable with a site that criticizes the president for un-progressive positions, you're the odd man out, not those who rightly criticize the president for his departure from progressive ideals.

[tabasco]

187. It's a site for malcontents and utopians.

I'm outta here.

[earth mom]

191. The truth hurts.

And yes, it does sound like you are telling people to Unrec anti Obama threads. :eyes:

[AllentownJake]

192. Your concern is noted nt

[UTUSN]

193. K&R to attempt to undo the rude UnReKKKs, but there're apparently more than one n/t

[depakid]

194. Look at the responses in the threads

that tells one more than the recs.

Most of what I've seen isn't anti-Obama per se, but in response to dysfunctional policy and procedural decisions that are being made.

[Toasterlad]

196. !!!LEAVE OBAMA ALONE!!!!1!!!