The Health Care Bill: As Wicked as the Mandates Are, This Is Even Worse.

[David Zephyr]

Every progressive, every Democrat and every American needs to know about the sinister provision within the current, so-called health-care bill the the Los Angeles Times covered this morning. If you think that the mandates are wicked, well look at this.

"Proposals before Congress to allow insurance companies to market and sell health-care policies nationwide are coming under attack from proponents of the current system of state-by-state oversight.

"A key but lesser-known facet of the health-care bills in the House and Senate would allow insurers to register in one state but sell policies in many other states as well.

"That could allow insurers to ignore insurance laws in all but their home state and make it impossible for regulators in states with tough consumer protection laws to enforce them, a group of Democratic lawmakers says in a letter obtained by The Times." http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-health-insure17-2009dec17,0,2204157.story

In a letter to Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi, progressive Democrats in California warn that the health care bill as written will ""will lead to a race to the bottom in insurance regulation and severely threaten the important and often lifesaving protections the residents of our states enjoy." The letter continues ""Practically speaking, insurers will domicile their plans in states with less stringent regulations and market to the population in more protective states like ours, just like nationally chartered banks have done."

Rep. Jackie Speier, a Democrat from Hillsborough here in California said, "There's a reason all the credit card companies are domiciled in South Dakota. Their laws are weak on behalf of consumers. The laws are friendly to that particular industry. With this language we're going to allow for that same anti-consumer conduct to be replicated in the health insurance realm."

This corporate sponsored "health care" bill needs to be stopped.

The Congress, with the White House, has now made sure that Americans can not import their medications from Canada, although candidate Barack Obama is on video in state after state promising that he would make that happen. Instead, President Obama worked the Senate with the help of Democratic Senator Carper to keep it illegal to get one's meds from Canada. President Obama not only broke a campaign promise to the sick, the elderly and the poor, but he worked to prevent what he'd promised to them. President Obama lied.

The rush is now on to get this bill signed quickly. I think the rush is to do so before we learn anything else about this fucking travesty of a bill.

Just consider what Americans are learning now about this bill and ask yourself: why all of the hurry? What else is hidden in this legislation?

Mandates that Americans must purchase a product from corporations! No competitive public option! No expansion of Medicare! Allowing insurance corporations to locate in states with shitty consumer standards and then over-ride the laws in states where health and consumer standards are held sacred! What else is lurking inside of this wicked bill?

Below is a photo/still from the 1970's film Solyent Green. This is corporate health care and it is illegal in every civilized nation except for the United States. It is evil.

Do you honestly now trust these law makers with your health-care? With your life?

President Obama is now fearmongering on television that Social Security and Medicare will go broke with the heavy-handed message that his bill must pass. And make no mistake about it, it is Obama's bill just as Russ Feingold said: it is the bill Obama always wanted from the beginning.

Kill this bill.

[mike_c]

1. this bill is a gift to the insurance industry, plain and simple....

[David Zephyr]

3. The best leglislation their money could buy.

What else will we learn that's in this bill?

[Echo In Light]

70. The best "democracy" $ can buy

[Blasphemer]

72. No doubt about it... nt

[Zodiak]

2. kill this bill

I do not want the laws of Texas determining this entire country's health insurance policies.

This was a REPUBLICAN IDEA.....how the fuck did it end up on BOTH SIDES of this bill?

Yeah...both sides, which means that if the Senate bill passes, this little feature is 100% guaranteed.....reconciliation will not get rid of anything in agreement between the two bills.

[David Zephyr]

19. Yes. Everyone is focusing only on mandates. There's more wickedness in the bill than just mandates.

Even if the mandates are dropped, it's still a horrible bill that will make our health care even worse than it is.

[Hello_Kitty]

49. But the mandates are what force us into it.

And they're the only thing, oddly enough, that seem to be "non-negotiable".

[Ozymanithrax]

4. The anti-trust provisions need to be removed, and Insurance companies...

allowed to sell across the nation. Allowing them to create little monopolies in individual states doesn't serve the patients and keeps prices high.

I disagree with the La Times. Monopolies are bad for consumers. We should institute nationwide regulation of health companies rather than allow state legislators to let in only those companies that provide the best donations to re election war chests.

[RaleighNCDUer]

20. An interesting point - as it is now, insurance is regulated only by

individual states. If they are allowed to sell across state lines, that takes them out of state jurisdiction and makes them federal, falling under 'interstate commerce', and thus able to be regulated by the federal government - a potential for improvement. OTOH, credit cards cross state lines - and we've seen how much protection we get from the federal government against the banksters' abuses.

I'm afraid that the result would be federal regulations just as stringent as those we see on credit cards.

[leftstreet]

5. Wow. It really IS The Insurance and Pharmaceutical Profit Protection Act

:banghead:

[Lorien]

60. or rather, The Insurance and Pharmaceutical Profit Escalation Act nt

[LuvNewcastle]

6. The more I hear, the worse it gets.

It's time to start over. This is too important to screw up.

[Luciferous]

14. Yep, kill it and start over nt

[alsame]

7. That's why the GOP has been pushing the 'buy across state

lines' talking point for months.

[jillan]

9. You beat me to this by 2 seconds. Unbelievable - especially because the GOP still won't vote for it

[jgraz]

13. Yep. This bill is a Repuke's wet dream. And the Democrats are going to hand it to them.

Unbelievable.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

16. And in another win for the goops, get blamed for it.

:hurts:

[TwilightGardener]

10. Yep, I've heard that over and over from Repubs. And since no actual Repub will

be voting for this bill, there's really no reason to allow this provision, is there?

[David Zephyr]

11. Yeah. And guess what? It already in the friggin' bill.

alsame, you are so right.

It's been the clarion call by the GOP all year. And now we find out that it's right in the bill. What else is in this rotten bill that we don't know about?

[laughingliberal]

24. Yeah, I got that part of it when McCain was campaigning on it in the election nt

[jillan]

8. Well this should make the repigs happy - this is what THEY wanted.

I feel like I am in a dream and that I'm going to wake up and this nitemare will be over.

[David Zephyr]

21. It's exaclty what they wanted. And it's in the friggin' bill.

We are dopes. We've been had.

[bullwinkle428]

28. Repukes getting what they wanted...WITHOUT EVEN HAVING TO VOTE FOR IT!!!

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[David Zephyr]

31. "Without even having to vote for it."

We were fooled.

[progressoid]

12. OK, but the Soylent Green thing is a bit over the top.

:eyes:

[David Zephyr]

30. Is it?

;)

[undeterred]

15. He promised a pony but all we got is horseshit.

:banghead:

[juno jones]

26. UHHHHH! You said 'pony'....

You're today's winner.

Where dya want it? :D

[xxqqqzme]

17. One of the 'inclusions'

given special attention in Olbermann's 'Special Comment' last night. Written by and for corporate health insurance.

[laughingliberal]

25. I'm a little fuzzy, here, but I swear this was supposed to be the tradeoff for getting rid of the

insurance industry's exemption from anti-trust laws. Of course, that was taken out and this was kept. Surprised?

[truedelphi]

52. And the thing I am imagining about the anti trust situation is that

What is imporant about it is who will make the calls.

Just like in the Consuemr Protection Agencies, and the Wall Street Oversight Committees, it all depends on whom they mandate for sitting in the hot seat.

In the case of financial oversight, they will have Geithner do the oversight. "Nothing to see here, move along!"

And this "anit trust" stuff will probably be more of the same.

[KansDem]

18. Remember how Repubs bitched and moaned about "unfunded mandates?"

Guess they're okay with mandates to funnel money from average Americans to multi-millionaire CEOs...

[juno jones]

22. K&R!

Kill it.

As one of the uninsured unwashed masses attempting to suppport a family of unemployed people I had great hopes.

Right now the bill will make it very hard for the working class to get by. Especially without subjugating themselves to the punitive public welfare system. Besides, in the same breath that expands medicaid to 133% (maybe)of the poverty line, they also talk of defunding it (and medicare). It's prety much an academic excercise anyways, not too many places will accept it...except the emergency room at certain hospitals, so we're back to that being used as primary caretaker despite all our contortion.

Right now, my money goes directly to my healthcare when I need it. When I have a large outlay, It has been budgeted in and paid back over the course of a few months. I'll be damned if a penny of my money goes to fuel the lifestyle of bloodsucking insurance CEO's, not when my basic food and shelter are at stake.

[David Zephyr]

34. You are not alone.

We were betrayed.

[Laelth]

23. Kill the bill. It's worse than doing nothing. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[Unvanguard]

27. First, that can be changed in conference, and second, if you want more competition in insurance

that's one way to do it.

[suffragette]

29. Looks like Dean was correct - again

So much for the accusations that he was lying about this aspect.

[BR_Parkway]

32. My only hope in that is that the insurance co's instantly move from the

conserva-dems states - it seems fitting some how. I mean, only in Pretty Woman did the john actually marry the hooker

[Odin2005]

33. We've been had! KILL THE BILL!!!

[postulater]

35. Imagine working in a doctor's office and trying to figure out

someone's coverage when there are fifty different state laws.

The horror!

No-one would ever know if their doctor bills are being paid correctly by their insurance company. Least of all the doctor.

[David Zephyr]

43. This was the Republican "idea"

now buried in the Democrats bill.

How sad.

The bill is toxic.

[wolfgangmo]

65. I own a clinic that is now cash only

And before your start flaming me for not helping low income folks let me tell you that we still provide all the paperwork for patients to get reimbursed (which insurance companies are more likely to do if the patient files interestingly) and that because we no longer have all the overhead and expenses involoved in getting paid by the insurance companies that our cash pay prices are 1/3 to 1/2 what clinics that bill insurance are able to offer their patients who have NO insurance. So nyah.

Having said that I predict that there will be an increase in the number of clinics not billing insurance - they will need to do this just to keep their doors open. If you think handling 140 different insurance companies forms, procedures, and deadlines (typical number of companies in any 1 state) then imaging having to handle 7000 different ones.

Who the hell would want to do that. Doctors offices have to go to war in order to get paid or to get treatment for patients. It already chews up to 50% of a docs time (taken away from patient care). Imagine if that was 50 times worse.

That is what this bill does and it will cause more general and family practices to decide to close their doors and get their long haul truckers licenses or plumbers license.

[postulater]

66. Exactly.

Two of the my reasons for supporting single-payor universal coverage:

1. Uniform coverage and uniform fees minimize overhead and uncertainty over who pays what.

2. Work injuries and accidental injuries get treated regardless of liability.

I was soooooo hoping for some sort of single-payer plan, and these are only two of the reasons.

[aroach]

73. My doctor is cash only...

...and an office call costs me less than the co-pay would be if I had insurance and went anywhere else. I am very thankful for his services.

[Iowa]

80. Yep... I could pay out-of-pocket for a cash-only family doc's services.

But then again, most people are relatively healthy and don't spend much there. If all I had to worry about was an occasional trip to the family doc, I'd drop insurance and come out WAY ahead. But anyone who has had a family member with serious, long-term health problem knows that the family doctor isn't what you're afraid of. It's the hospitals, surgeries, drugs, and diagnostic tests that will wipe you out.

[Mithreal]

36. why all of the hurry? Paraphrasing Obama, if the American people and Senate only knew.

[grantcart]

37. Good point and I agree with killing the bill

Public radio covered this today and reported the California delegation was determined to make changes preventing what you describe.


Even without it the bill should be killed.

[David Zephyr]

38. grantcart, thanks for letting me know that NPR covered this story today.

This really needs to get out. How they kept this shit hidden is enfuriating.

I'm with you. Kill the bill.

But guess, what: it's going to pass now in a rush now that they screwed us. Just watch.

[thesquanderer]

39. Obama campaigned AGAINST selling insurance across state lines

In the second Obama-McCain debate:

McCain:
Don't we go across state lines when we purchase other things in America? Of course it's OK to go across state lines because in Arizona they may offer a better plan that suits you best than it does here in Tennessee.

and the response:

Obama:
And the reason that it's a problem to go shopping state by state, you know what insurance companies will do? They will find a state -- maybe Arizona, maybe another state -- where there are no requirements for you to get cancer screenings, where there are no requirements for you to have to get pre-existing conditions, and they will all set up shop there.

That's how in banking it works. Everybody goes to Delaware, because they've got very -- pretty loose laws when it comes to things like credit cards.

And in that situation, what happens is, is that the protections you have, the consumer protections that you need, you're not going to have available to you.

That is a fundamental difference that I have with Sen. McCain. He believes in deregulation in every circumstance. That's what we've been going through for the last eight years. It hasn't worked, and we need fundamental change.

As an aside... it was kind of funny that he kind of stumbled in the middle of the Delaware credit card analogy, apt as it may have been, probably because he knew to instantly water down the criticism there lest it backfire on his VP candidate!

Anyway, this point was also made more recently by administration spokesman David Axelrod, seen in this CNN video, where Wolf Blitzer argues for insurance across state lines, and Axelrod says that's not what the administration wants : http://s190.photobucket.com/albums/z100/generalissimodp/?action=view¤t=09-09axelrod-wolf.flv

(and the full text of the debate quoted above is at http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/07/presidential.debate.transcript/ )

[David Zephyr]

42. Great work, thesquanderer! We need more like you here at the DU!

Thanks for finding and then posting here Obama's own words during the debate. Another sneaky deception and untruth from the one who once held so much promise.

I trusted this guy so much.

Now, I don't. At all. How can one?

He just said a lot of shit he never meant at all.

Great work and thanks for keeping it real, thesquanderer!

[highplainsdem]

44. Important info. Will you please repost this to start a new thread, making sure more people see it?

Thanks!

[David Zephyr]

45. +1. It should be a new OP.

I agree.

[thesquanderer]

51. Done, and expanded, thanks

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7260194

[G_j]

46. +1000

good work!

[leftstreet]

47. +1

Thanks for finding this!

[Nikki Stone1]

40. This is crucial. Thank you for posting.

.

[AzDar]

41. K & R

:kick:

[Waiting For Everyman]

48. Oh, but it doesn't matter what's in it, just pass it.

Someday someone will fix it.

:sarcasm:

I can NOT understand that attitude. (The WH attitude.)

That might be what shocks me the MOST about all this... Who cares what effect it might have on real peoples' lives? Who cares if people really can't afford the costs demanded? Who cares if it ends up harming a lot and helping only a little? So what? Irrelevant! After all, it's only Federal law.

[truedelphi]

53. Plus it only provides that We the People cough up some

One Hundred and Sixty Six Billion dollars in penalties! In a period of time 2013 to 2019!!

While we cut the heart out of MediCare and trim trim trim that program into the ground to also help offset the government subsidizing this RipOff program...

[rhett o rick]

50. Kill the bill. nt

[cascadiance]

54. Corps don't want to have to wait for court decisions like the banks did with CC fee laws

Might was well get it legislated that they can't be limited by state laws now rather than trying to get a court ruling like the credit card companies did to keep them from being regulated by state laws...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiley_v._Citibank

F'in FASCISTS!

[zoff]

55. Which just goes to show, there is only one party operating in DC, ...

... the party for corporatehood and corporate profits. HCR may be the one UNIFYING issue for 90% of America. Let us build on this one issue, and throw out all others that have been used to divide us.

[Little Star]

56. Wow! This whole thread is informative. Thank You. Kick

[David Zephyr]

78. Thanks, Little Star. Please share this with all your friends who are Democrats.

There are too many last minute surprises we are finding in this bill.

It is toxic.

[Mari333]

57. knr

[WillyT]

58. K & R !!!

:kick:

[amborin]

59. posted this the other day from DK: all those reasons & more:

someone posted this post on Daily Kos.

I think it sums up the pitfalls of the bill, in its current iteration.

If this current version gets passed, it looks like a political nightmare for dems:

"Most of the people who you think are going to get health insurance wont be able to afford the insurance that is offered to them. Even with the subsidy, the premiums are going to be too high. It will simply make more sense to wait until you get sick and go to the emergency room. Only now, on top of that, they're going to get hit with a fine on their tax returns if they avoid coverage. The reason is that there is no competitive pressure on insurance companies to keep prices low to make the subsidy meaningful.

Secondly, the bill is going to end the medicare advantage program, which offers top of the line coverage, and force them into a less generous Medicare program. Now, I'm sure that would be acceptable if their kids and grandkids got affordable coverage in the bargain. With this bill, they wont.

The antitrust provision has been dropped, so there will be no effective regulation of near monopolies in every state.

There is no Wyden amendment to promote general competition across the board.

Worse, the Republican "buy across state lines" provision has been put in, so that all the health insurers could set up shop in Oklahoma and offer the worst, least regulated insurance in a state like Massachusetts without having to comply with Massachusetts regulations. It will lead to a race to the bottom like credit card interest and South Dakota.

The provisions for the lifetime cap have been dropped.

Yes, you wont be banned because of pre-existing conditions, but the cost will be so prohibitive the average middle class person still wont able to afford it. Again, without competition from a public option, or antitrust provision, or the Wyden free choice plan, the insurance company can charge whatever it wants. There is no premium control.

Would this is going to lead to is a mandate to buy junk insurance that will still bankrupt you when you do get very sick. If you don't, youll get a fine. Whereas now you could keep your money in your pocket and get treated at the emergency room.

This bill is bad policy and even worse politics.

The only people who this bill will marginally benefit is high income healthy people like me with really great health insurance. My premiums will probably drop or remain steady. But I'm not the one who needed this bill in the first place. I'm happy with my plan."

from daily kos

[Skittles]

61. and they won't even bother to provide us vaseline

[Lorien]

62. You end up with what i've got:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7259958

I heard the insurance industry pushing this plan on nPR the other day. They interviewed a lobbyist who said "It about giving the consumer choices". Yeah, right. They sure didn't like it when the consumer would have the CHOICE of buying into Medicare instead of their crap products!

Naturally, NPR talked to this schmuck for several minutes, then ended the piece with a brief "opponents say that the measure would make it harder for States to enforce consumer protection laws".

[spiritual_gunfighter]

63. My girlfriend

woke up a few days ago bleeding from her vaginal area, doctors have told her that she needs to have her ovaries taken out. She is uninsured, I pleaded with her to go to the emergency room but she said she wanted to wait, maybe it will get better. If her or I had been insured there would have been no argument about going to the doctor. She would be getting the medical treatment she needs. There are millions of stories like hers and mine.

I had serious stomach surgery two years ago and in the process of my rehab I was dropped by my insurance company. I owe the hospitals thousands of dollars and the bills have gone into collection. My credit is ruined. I have recently been having severe stomach pain but being uninsured I am in the same boat as my girlfriend and just hope it gets better.

I think this bill is complete shit and I understand the "kill the bill" calls coming from progressives. But when you are sick and uninsured it is hard to be principled.

[kjones]

64. knowing the way things go...

this bill will probably prevent us from getting a real bill.


but you know, remember, keep fighting.

[Javaman]

67. One hour after the bill passes...

Agent: so Mr. Doormat, here is your policy...

Mr. Doormat: I need to read this first.

Agent: naaa, you don't want to do that...

Mr. Doormat: why not?

Agent: well, to be perfectly honest, you will be come depressed and because the pre-existing thingy was taken out of the final bill, well, I won't be able to approve you.

Mr. Doormat: wha???

Agent: Just sign in blood on the dotted line...

Mr. Doormat: what's this? Line 5, subparagraph G, Roman numeral VI, subsection D, "The insurer (WEFUCKYOU, INC) has the right to deny the insured (You, the worthless gullible scumbag public), insurance for any reason we feel like, even if we think you are just weird".Subsection E: Pertaining to Subsection D: we can still charge you even though we have canceled the policy."

Agent: Huh, you must have pretty good eyes, that font was unable to be read by a hawk in our lab studies.

Mr. Doormat: What kind of bullshit is this?

Agent: sigh, see? you are getting depressed, what did I tell you?

Mr. Doormat: I'm not depressed I'm fucking pissed off!!!

Agent: Sigh again, sorry denied.

Mr. Doormat: (confused) why? I said I'm not depressed.

Agent: according to our studies the test monkey's in our lab would first get pissed then sad when denied their treats. So, it's that pre-existing thingy again.

Mr. Doormat: fine, fuck you. this policy was a worthless piece of shit anyway!!!

Mr. Doormat storms out. The Agent calls after him!

Agent: don't forget to pay your premium on the way out!!!

P.S. the Insurance corps waited a whole hour because they had to finish celebrating first.

[liberation]

68. .. and yet most people here are acting as if this was a "mistake"

Either we start to call a spade a spade. Or if we're going to continue in denial, at least we should be honest enough to cut it out with all this faux out rage.

We put the foxen in charge of the hen house, and we act surprised when they pass a completely pro-fox piece of legislation. Asking the foxen to redo the bill from scratch, thinking there is going to be a different outcome this time... it is at a very basic level nothing but lunacy.


We're afraid of the Dems leadership and whatever creative way of f*cking up they are going to come up next, when it should be the other way round (at least regarding the fear factor). Nothing is going to change, or get better, until we (progressives) come to terms with that fact. All those hysterics are laughable if you really think about it. Because at the end of the day, nothing will change... and most people will end up toe-ing in line. Another election will come, and once again we will be forced to chose between the least stinky piece of a fece, and then... like clockwork, soon after that we will have people screaming to high heavens how everything smells like sh*t. Well, dumbasses... the shiniest part of a sh*t is still that: fecal matter. What were we expecting... a rose aroma instead?

[jonnyblitz]

69. outstanding thread, David.

:thumbsup:

[MH1]

71. Of course, when R's innocently ask "what's wrong with allowing competition"

among plans across state lines, they never mention that their proposal would allow a plan to be sold that doesn't meet state requirements where it is sold.

I have NO problem with plans being marketed nationally as long as they meet the laws for each state they're sold in. (I know the ins. co.'s say that's not feasible. Tough.)

[dana_b]

74. thank you David

this bill gets scarier by the day and right now I have no faith that if it were passed that they'd ever revisit it to "improve" it. Right now I don't believe a damn word they say.

[Parker CA]

75. Wow. This is seriously bad news. Not a peep on this anywhere else as far as I know. Well done!!

[MNDemNY]

76. And their claim of No annual benefit limits is a lie.

There is a loophole you could fly a 787 through while drunk.
Page 16 Line 8 http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act.pdf

[MNDemNY]

77. Yup, soon Texas will be regulating your insurance carrier.

sound good??? ( The insurance that you will be FORCED to buy)

[spotbird]

79. Unbelievable. nt

[KoKo]

81. Thanks David..too late to K&R...but giving you an UP!

[Scarsdale Vibe]

82. Bullshit as usual.

States can form regional compacts with other states if they want to, but aren't forced to or even incentivized to. California is never going to make an insurance exchange with a state like Indiana with weaker regulations.

[upi402]

83. They'll sign it before the fat lazy American middle wakes up. n/t