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ck4829 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:30 PM
Original message
Where is our line in the sand at?
Edited on Thu Dec-17-09 03:30 PM by ck4829
You have to give it to the Republicans, for once, they know what they are doing.

It's hard to build a movement that is based in opposition to something, but they did it. Republicans have said "NO" to a public option, "NO" to single payer", "NO" to many things. Democrats keep giving and giving but in the end, Republicans still say "NO".

Let's be honest here; Democrats ran on health care reform, they want to say they accomplished something. But at this rate, it'll be a paper tiger of health care reform. And do you really want a paper tiger that's called reform, or do you want real reform.

It's time for Obama, Reid, Pelosi, and the others to buckle down, and I think the best way to do that is show that we can oppose them as well, but be constructive at the same time.

We need our own line in the sand as well, something to say to Republicans... and Democrats that you have taken enough out of the bill and minimized actual reform too much.

What should the line be?

No usage of the health care bill to deny funds to abortion or contraceptives.
No so-called tort "reform" that is just a payday for insurance companies and red meat for conservatives.
No denial of a serious look at the frivolous usage of "pre-existing conditions" by insurance companies.
No ignoring people who still have insurance but still go bankrupt.
And other items as well.

We may all not agree 100% on health care, but I think we can all agree that we need a line that tells Republicans where to stop taking, and more importantly, tells Democrats where to stop giving.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Republicans are in the minority n/t
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Are we sure?
For a minority their concerns always seem to be at the top of our majority's agenda.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. The Republicans gave the Democrats a mandate when they ran McCain
One wonders why
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. Senate bill on those items
"No usage of the health care bill to deny funds to abortion or contraceptives." - probably will say susidized plans can't cover abortion

"No so-called tort 'reform' that is just a payday for insurance companies and red meat for conservatives." - not in the bill

"No denial of a serious look at the frivolous usage of 'pre-existing conditions' by insurance companies." - They can't use pre-existing conditions, except for age and the Wellness loophole which may force people who are fat or smoke or have high blood pressure to pay thousands more.

"No ignoring people who still have insurance but still go bankrupt." Harry Reid is against banning annual caps, and so that will continue.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. Line in the Sand? We're not even on the beach anymore! We've been pushed back to the parking lot.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. +1000000000000
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global1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. We Also Need A Line In The Sand For Some Of Our So-Called Fellow Dems.......nt
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tomm2thumbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. you think we are as close as the parking lot eh?

you optimist, you!

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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. And some us are still high fiving each other over how awesome it is here near the dumpster ....
... whoohooo! lay down the blankets on the asphalt and lets get the healthcare beach party started!
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. Obama needs to stop being a community organizer and start being a LEADER
He should have cut the cord to the right after his first 100days in office yielded nothing from them!
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leftofcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
7. What line in the sand?
Show me a Democrat with the balls to draw one.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. There are no lines in the sand when you are beached (nt)
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optimator Donating Member (606 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. mandates are my line
I'll never support any legislation that forces citizens to buy a private company's product.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. That's what pushed me over the edge. No mandates without choice.
I am so f-ing mad!
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
15. The problem is not the actual Republicans.
Edited on Thu Dec-17-09 04:42 PM by Lyric
The problem is that we have Republicans with a (D) after their name in Congress right now; conservative wolves masquerading as Democratic sheep. And how did they get there? We invited them in, and now we defend/protect them because they have (D)'s after their names. We pretend that it's all about having a "big tent," but it's really not. It's about WINNING. The only line in the sand that we have left is the one that separates a DINO from an R--in other words, just a letter after a name.

We have assumed that, because Republicans kept winning elections, that the American people WANTED conservatism. But we were wrong. It's not that there are more conservatives and moderates; it's that they are loud, and we are weak. We don't fight for progressive values. We don't do a good job of standing up for what we believe in. More than anything else, Americans want leadership, and we simply do not provide it. And because we weren't providing it, people turned elsewhere, or just decided to stop voting altogether.

I believe that if we bring the strength back, we'll win back the voters. I don't think that polls and surveys are accurate predictors of voter behavior in regard to this, because people do not always consciously realize WHY they've drifted into being Republicans. They just know that the recent waves of Democratic leaders have left them feeling vaguely icky, like something was missing. That something is strength, and the willingness to risk their own well-being for the sake of doing what's right for the people they serve. We don't have that anymore. We haven't had it for a very long time.

There is only one way to GET that strength back, and that is to stop trying to please everyone and start governing for the best interests of the nation. We have to stop being afraid of big changes; if a big change is the only way to fix a problem, then we must be brave enough to DO it, and to hell with the political risks. Not only do we fail to listen to The People, we also fail to read between the lines and see what the deeper problems truly are. When people cry out that the healthcare mandate will be too expensive and unpopular, what they're SAYING is that their jobs don't pay enough. They aren't financially secure enough. They are fearful and uncertain because they see another burden coming, but no strong leadership there to help them bear it, to assure them that the the government WILL NOT let them go under, that there will always be a safety net there should a plan fail.

We removed every bit of safety netting underneath our working-class and middle-class tightrope walkers, and then we ponder like idiots, wondering why they're voting out of fear. Republicans give them a sedative for that fear--someone they can blame. Immigrants, big government, liberals, gays, reformers, black people, subversives, communists--all groups of people who serve as scapegoats for the sake of pulling people over to the Republican side of the aisle. We offer them NOTHING. We expect much of our people, and we fail to offer strength and determination in return to assure them that everything's going to be okay. We talk tough on TV, and then the American people see us fall apart live on Fox News, CSPAN, and CNN. We look like noobs who have no idea what we're doing. The Republicans are doing the wrong things, but they're strong and dedicated about it. They'd drive the country off-track by a thousand miles, but their strength of purpose is powerful enough to convince people to vote for them because at least they seem to be SURE about themselves, and willing to accept mistakes. And what of us? We can't even decide WHICH direction to go, much less band together and actually GO there. We are unwilling to appear like we're willing to make a mistake--and thus, by being afraid to act like leaders and take the big risks necessary to govern well, we make the biggest mistake of all, and we LOSE people.

We are not dictators. That is not what I am suggesting, even though I know someone will try to spin that strawman. But if we are elected to LEAD, then we must LEAD. That requires the bravery to choose a path, take it, and be willing to be WRONG. And if we're wrong--the strength to turn back around and find the CORRECT way. Of everything I said above, I am absolutely certain that, if given the chance to air their fear and grief, if convinced that their leaders really CARED and were really LISTENING, they would tell us these things themselves. It would be a most cathartic thing to experience, and the relief of The People--They're listening to us! they care!--would be palpable in the air.

You know what *I* think we should do? Go on national TV and tell people that we intend to extend Medicare to all Americans, with the poorest ones receiving it for free. Tell people that it's time to try something new and daring, and tell them that IF we're wrong, and IF things go badly, we are willing to reconsider our decision later and try something else. Give a timetable of ten years--one decade to see how it works out. Make it a trial, not an ultimatum. But make it a trial of something we BELIEVE in, as opposed to something that looks indecisive and weak. Get the message straight; go directly to the airwaves and TELL the American people that THIS is what we want to do. Tell them that we are willing to TRY the big changes. That we are willing to truly fight for the best interests of our people.

If the Republicans and DINOs won't stand with us and serve the people rather than the corporations, then go to the people and tell them that our Founding Fathers did NOT intend for Senate decisions to require 60 votes to pass. Tell them that although the Senate can make its own procedural rules, those rules should NOT be permitted to circumvent or nullify what the Founding Fathers framed in the Constitution. If the Fathers said that a majority (51) should rule, then no Senate rule should be permitted to change that basic, structural fact. Then change the rules of the Senate to respect what the Constitution says. Re-write ALL rules that conflict with the Constitution's intended structure for Congress.

We don't talk to the people enough, and we should change that. We can no longer afford for our elected Democrats to be seen as a bunch of weak-kneed, indecisive tinpot tyrants who have little to no contact with, or respect for, what the people they serve really need. If we refuse to provide the leadership that people need so desperately, then the Republicans WILL--and they'll destroy the nation in the process.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. A "change they can believe in"? I approve.
I saw a clip of Howard Dean this morning, from Morning Joe of all places, in which he essentially was saying the same thing... sometimes the officials just have to stop worrying about the politics of a thing, and get the policy right (paraphrase).

It was the first time I can remember seeing a politician actually stand firmly in the face of criticism from all sides and voice a truth. Good for him...

And that, I think, is the strength that you're talking about... and I agree completely that it is the heart of what seems to be missing from Democrats (the missing heart of Democrats, perhaps) as a party. Some few exceptions, but for the most part... there seems to be an assumption that apologies for their own policies are the response to any challenge.

I don't think they would even have to go as far as you're proposing (with a 10 year plan). They could simply put the public option and the medicare buy in back into the Senate bill... and then tell the Republicans (and Lieberman) that if they have until the House finishes crafting a reconciliation bill to extend medicare to all to stop filibustering and allow a vote... or the Democrats will go ahead and use reconciliation to extend the already existent federal program of medicare to all.

It is completely feasible, timely, and a display of strength and leadership. It's what Dean is proposing, but with the alternative of giving the Republicans a chance to save their donors a shitload of money if they're willing to crumble and let the filibuster slip.

It's political and policy win win, actually, for the Democrats... unless they're really just corporate shills themselves who never had any intention of getting any real policy reform enacted.

Unfortunately, they'll probably show themselves to be too stubborn and scared of looking like they "bowed to Dean"... so they'll plow on with this shitty bill that Lieberman has stomped the life out of... and in the end we'll all be left to scratch our heads and debate whether the Democrats are weak, stupid, or simply bought-off.
:+
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TiberiusGracchus Donating Member (115 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
16. We need ONE senator to vote against cloture and force the rethugs to filibuster...
it's become obvious that Harry Reid will push this bill into becoming the greatest Christmas gift the Insurance-Pharma complex has ever seen, and they will keep trying to get 60 votes to avoid filibuster.

What we need is one, just ONE of our progressive senators to show some spine and vote against cloture and FORCE the republicans to show the country exactly where they stand.

If it's not filibustered then we can salvage it in somehow. If it IS filibustered then we are rescued from giving the insurance monsters 30 million new serfs.
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LooseWilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I left a message with Barbara Boxer's office suggesting just that...
Now, if no one else from California voices an opinion on the matter... I'm golden ;)
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
19. Hard to tell -- they took away our sand.
All we got was sandblasted.
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