pass the bill; kill the bill

[seabeyond]

i took a lot of time thinking about it and listening to a lot of people. i have decided we need to pass the bill. how about others.

[rucky]

1. Heart says kill it, head says pass it.

Heads win.

[seabeyond]

3. perfectly said. that is where i was at. thanks. nt

[hayu_lol]

4. Kill this bill...

10,000 more wherefores and 10,000 more whyfores cannot correct the faults in this bill. Kill it now and begin again...leave healthcare lobbyists and Big Pharma out in the cold of winter.

Tell Reps and Senators to get to work and produce a SINGLE-PAYER NATIONAL HEALTH PLAN.

[rucky]

6. Show me a path to success by starting over

and I'm on board.

I know it would be simple in theory, but with this Senate?

[PassingFair]

10. Show me a path to success by passing this massive insurance company give-away....

that will have us more beholden to them than
we are now.

Mandates need to be removed if there is no
public option.

[rucky]

14. I don't see one.

We all have to weigh the trade-off very carefully, because of the uninsured people who will die if we do nothing.

I know that's dramatic, but it's the same compelling argument that put healthcare reform in the forefront.

So first there's a measure of principle. I can't say for sure how much this bill will benefit our most vulnerable, but we know how the status quo will affect them. I have to give their well-being the benefit of the doubt.

Then there's the political end of things. If progressives vote to kill the bill, not only will they be scapegoated, but they will lose the moral ground in future battles.

Basically, we're screwn.

[PassingFair]

20. I think we HAVE weighed the trade-off and found it tipped the scale.

No cost controls + mandates = disaster.

[PassingFair]

21. We HAVE weighed it carefully. It tipped the scale.

No Cost Controls + Mandates = Disaster

[rucky]

26. I'm ready to go to jail over that racket.

I don't know if I could afford the premiums or not. I don't know if they'll go down, up, or stay the same. I think I can qualify for assistance, but I'm not sure. We're pretty much at their mercy. I don't think we have the facts to weigh it carefully, which is where my benefit of the doubt argument kicks in.

If the likely scenario plays out with mandates, my only response to the people running the racket is that backing us into a corner like this forces us to play the only card we have - civil disobedience. It may come down to jury nullification of thousands of cases to bring down this mandate. But frankly, I don't think they can enforce it at all. This is akin to burning Vietnam draft cards, and it may be what finally motivates us to take to the streets. So if our Senators won't stick up for us, we may just have to stick up for ourselves.

[totodeinhere]

23. The uninsured will continue to die if this bill passes.

Much of it won't kick in for several years. Meanwhile, people keep dying. And even when the bill is fully operable, many will still die because mandate or not, they won't be able to afford the insurance, and in many cases, the subsidies they are promising won't help either because they will be very complicated to apply for and many poor people won't have the wherewithal to apply.

[PassingFair]

29. Not to mention ...WHO pays for the "subsidies"?

[el_bryanto]

12. How soon would we get to start over?

What happened last time a major push on healthcare was initiated?

Bryant

[Renew Deal]

28. They won't "begin again"

So that's not an option.

I love how some of you pretending that "starting over" would somehow change the circumstances that put us in this position. Not only would they not "start over", but the players would be exactly the same and all momentum would be lost. Some of you need to get a clue.

[itsrobert]

13. Heart says Kill it, head says kill it

Both win.

[Laelth]

16. Head may want to reconsider. Here's why:

The current system is unsustainable, and everyone knows it. Change will come, eventually, UNLESS we pass the disastrous bill that's currently on the table.

California will probably pass single-payer on its own in 2011. All they need is a Democratic Governor. The legislature has already passed the bill. Schwarzenegger vetoed it. Once California has single-payer, most (if not all) states will follow suit.

It's likely that if we pass a new law now, the new law will preempt single-payer, i.e. the Federal law will preempt state law and prevent states from enacting a single-payer system.

THIS is what the health insurance companies fear. THIS is what brought them to the bargaining table. THIS is why they are not fighting Obama's tepid reforms, and THIS is why it is extremely important that we do not pass any health insurance reform bill this year.

Let's not settle for a bail-out of the health insurance industry. Let's insist on the eradication of it. In all likelihood, California will lead the way in 2011 ... if we can just give them time.

Canada got its single-payer system one province at a time. That seems to be the way it will have to happen in the U.S.

:dem:

-Laelth

[HughMoran]

24. Same here

Well, that an very practical consideration as what they are offering me for insurance rates is completely unaffordable (small company). Exchanges move us from a pool of 10 to perhaps thousands - the rates will be less than half!!

[fasttense]

2. I voted other because if the mandate were removed, it would be a good start.

Removing the mandate is a win-win even for insurance corporations.

The DLC can do their happy dance.

Dean and we angry progressive base will be able to swallow this bitter pill.

Insurance corporations will still get more customers because you can't get a subsidy without buying corporate health insurance.

[Joanne98]

5. Kill it

[lib2DaBone]

7. Passing this bill will allow Big Insurance to ignore all laws...

The argument for passing this criminal piece of legislation is the same as when people argued for the passage of TARP.. saying "We can't afford to not act.. passing this bill is better than doing nothing".

How did that TARP thing work out?

Or the Patriot Act they were going to go back and fix?

[sendero]

8. You can't fix..

... rampant optimism, it is a happy form of stupidity that never seems to go out of style.

[pampango]

9. "Kill the bill! Kill the bill!" Seems like I've heard that chant somewhere before.

;) Strange bedfellows, I guess.

[baldguy]

11. Pass the bill; don't pretend it's HCR.

Start over with real reform in Jan.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

18. A sound idea....

Elminate pre-existing conditions for persons changing jobs. Elminate lifetime caps on payments. Create larger tax credits for people who buy their own insurance. Maybe a couple other smaller-ticket items.

Then go for some kind of public option later.

[calico1]

15. Take the mandate out and then pass it. n/t

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

17. Pass.....But

only if it can be fixed in conference. If the legislation that emerges is substantially like what's on the table now, it should be defeated.

And I think there are enough asshole Republicans in the House and Senate who will vote against anything, combined with enough true Progressives who won't stand for it, that it CAN be defeated.

[pleah]

19. Pass it and the house can strip out the shit and send it to the Presidents desk.

That's the way I understood how this is supposed to work. Whether the house would strip the shit out of this bill would remain to be seen.

to add http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/17/trumka-senate-bill-as-is_n_396542.html

[seabeyond]

30. this sounds like the interesting option. nt

[Fire1]

22. Pass it. The odds of fixing it are far better than starting over. n/t

[Shagbark Hickory]

25. Kill it as it is. At least ditch the mandate because it'll be a cold day in hell b4 I pay a 4profit

[Renew Deal]

27. Sad to see so many people on this site want to see more dead americans.

Passing the bill saves lots of lives. Not passing it means that the people that need the most help don't get it. Those with the fantasy that they can (or would) "start over" are clueless.

[freddie mertz]

31. They don't. That is pure demagoguery..

Why can't you accept that fact that well-intentioned people can disagree on this?