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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:09 AM
Original message
Russians Face Alcohol Death and Islamic Problems
Source: CNS

A shrinking Russian population, driven down by frequent alcohol-related deaths of men, is contributing to growing tensions between threatened ethnic Russians and Muslims. "I think that Russians are going to have an Islamic problem," Georgetown University Visiting Professor Shireen Hunter said Thursday.
Russia's population problem is driving ethnic Russians to feel more threatened by the Muslim population, Institute of World Politics Professor Paul Goble said at the Helsinki Commission briefing on Capitol Hill.
Russia has the same low birthrate as Italy, but population size is falling much more sharply than in Italy, due in large part to the exceptionally high death rate of Russian men, who often die from alcohol-related accidents.
The population problem is compounded by a phenomenon where mixed offspring of ethnic Russians and immigrants identify themselves mostly with their non-Russian heritage, whereas in past generations, the mixed progeny identified themselves as Russians nearly all the time.


Read more: http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/12/17/Russians_Face_Alcohol_Death_and_Islamic_Problems.htm



"Russian Muslims historically have always wanted to have some form of self-government."

theocracy?
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. yes alcoholism is doing great damage to Russia and Russians


and also in the countries that split away from Russia, like the Ukraine, etc.

alcoholism in the US is costing a pretty penny and lives too.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Ain't it awful?
Maybe they should, what's the word?, "prohibit" it.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. Right - they are drinking themselves to death and the problem is Islam.
Idiots.
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VanW Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. LOL
My reaction:






Why is this article even here? It's written in bad English from a site that apparently is a wire service for American legal news.


And, btw, maybe if those Russians coverted to Islam they wouldn't drink so much. No guarantee, though... LOL
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I doubt any religion
would prove strong enough to get russians to stop drinking,
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Yeah, love that picture.
Captures my thoughts. :rofl:

I live near where there are many expats from former Soviet states, and so I KNOW alcoholism is a huge problem with those people - not to stereotype, of course. Meanwhile, I can't say that I am acquainted with any heavy-drinking muslims, and I know more than a few.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
3. I guess we are still annoyed with Russia about not getting our way in Georgia etc. nt
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
6. Why is everyone so quick to paint Islam as a "problem" We don't do that anywhere else.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. In earlier times, it was a 'Jewish problem'.
Islamophobia is a modern prejudice deemed acceptable among many.
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VanW Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. The article and headline are offensive,

badly written, and from an sketchy source.

But it's anti-Muslim, so I guess it's OK then!
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GodlessBiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. All religions are problems.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. The problem is not Islam, the problem is THIS:
Edited on Fri Dec-18-09 02:40 PM by WriteDown
"The population problem is compounded by a phenomenon where mixed offspring of ethnic Russians and immigrants identify themselves mostly with their non-Russian heritage, whereas in past generations, the mixed progeny identified themselves as Russians nearly all the time."

Very odd. When I was a very small boy, my great grandmother on my father's side would not allow anyone to speak any language but English in the house. They very much wanted to be "American" and not Sicilian. We half-breeds (the great-grandchildren) were a strange lot :).

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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Sure we do.
We say that Pakhtuns in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Balochis in Iran and Pakistan, Hutu in Rwanda and the Congo, Serbs in Bosnia and Serbia are problems. They're trouble because their goals and desires are incompatible with the goals of either their compatriots--often a majority--or surrounding ethnicities, and they act on their goals. This can create political instability or violence.

In many places one's religion was one's ethnicity. When you look at the sectarian compromise that forms the basis of Lebanon's political structure you probably see religion; it's ethnicity, or, rather, there's not a real difference. It's the tribe you belong to, Druze or Christian or Sunni or Shi'ite. It's not just an Islamic thing, but that's where it survives most strongly. So in Egypt and Malaysia your ID card says your religious identity, where in some other countries it might state ethnicity (more relevant in Malaysia than in Egypt, to be sure).

In Russia, much of the territory that was taken as and after the Golden Horde was turned back was Muslim, mostly Turkic speakers. The Golden Horde had adopted Islam, and the way they ran their empire was essentially a religion-as-ethnicity approach, not much different from the Ottomans. Muslims got perks; Xians and Jews got fewer perks; others got fewer yet. The religious leader was the point person for dealing with the community--so it really put the Russian Orthodox Church up there and made the tsar' essentially need to be the church. It explains a bit.

However, with Islam overlaid on the ethnic patchwork that resulted from E-W and W-E migration the result is a patchwork of ethnicities in Russia proper, some "indigenous" in that they're not the most recent colonizers, some indigenous in the sense that it's unclear what ethnicity preceeded them, some obviously the result of migration and colonization. We usually only decry European imperialism, but Muslim imperialism worked out no better. The resulting clan/tribe ethnic identities are often mixed with religion--so if you're Chechen' you're proudly Chechen' and proudly Muslim, except that to say "Chechen'" implicates "Muslim" (conversational implicature there, not necessarily a logical one). Same for Tatar, Ingush, Lezgi, Abkhaz and other groups. Oddly, the connection Russian-Orthodox isn't nearly as strong.

Where Muslims have been radicalized there's a push for theocracy. But the "traditionally" Muslim lands in Russia weren't Wahhabi or Deobandi, there wasn't a strong push for theocracy--just money and loot, then land for expansion. Then recognition of that ethnicity/religion as the dominant, prestigious, most important one. It's hard to have a country with 100 ethnocentric loci. The tensions essentially break it apart--and a loose confederacy of small groups usually flops. The US tried it and it flopped rather badly. While it sounds harsh, 100 ethnicities aren't going to have a single purpose; having the Russians unite them may sound nasty, but it worked to some extent. Then again, the Russians were nice in historical terms, Ivan IV learned from the Tatars and ran a fairly non-assimilationist empire, unlike, say, the Arabs.
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cowcommander Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-18-09 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. Russia's an oddity - birth rates should be falling as things get better, not worse
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