Marine's mom confronts military recruiters: "I don't know how you sleep at night."

[JohnyCanuck]

Today the Army Career Center had its grand opening,a gala event that packed the center. I was able to make it there, but not until the end of the ceremony, when everyone had pretty much left, except for the Sgt. in charge, Castillo, and the brass. They were sitting around enjoying their food and smiling when I walked into the center. I asked for Sgt. Castillo, and was taken to the back room where he was sitting, along with his commanding officer, and another young soldier. I shook hands all around and introduced myself and told them my son just returned from his third tour of duty.

I recounted his story of joining the Marine Corps. and being deployed to Afghanistan, and then to Iraq twice as a reservist. They were very impressed and asked me when did he return, and was he still in the Marines. Yes, I said, he was in the IRR at present, but is a New York City Police Officer as his full time job, which he has been doing for 5 years.

snip

I was sitting there in the back office, and then stated "I would like you to know that I am a member of a national organization called 'Military Families Speak Out' and it has about 4,000 members who all have loved ones who are serving or served in Iraq and Afghanistan. We oppose the wars vehemently and are doing everything in our power to stop them."

I thought they would choke on their food at that point. Then I proceeded to say, "Since I work right here, I, along with hundreds of my activist friends, will be your worst nightmare!"

As you could hear a pin drop and confusion spread all over their faces, I continued. "I am so against what you are doing. You strategically placed this recruiting center so that kids who are either coming out of high school with nowhere to go, or those who graduate college in lots of debt and no jobs because of the economy are enticed to join the military." "You are taking full advantage of the bad economy and sending more of our youth off to die and kill for illegal, immoral and illegitimate wars. You should be ashamed of yourselves and I don't know how you sleep at night."

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Marine-Mom-Makes-Contact-a-by-Elaine-Brower-091217-55.html

Go Mom go!

[walldude]

1. K&R

[Mari333]

2. god bless the Military Families Speak Out

thank god for them. they helped me more than ever when I needed it.

and as an aside. My oldest son FINALLY is out of the National Guard. He was thinking of re upping (no jobs in MI), but his wife and I told him if he did we would never speak to him again and she would leave him.

So I can now breathe a little.

[WildEyedLiberal]

8. You would never speak to your OWN SON again if he re-enlisted?

That's disgusting - I bet it really warms his heart to know how conditional your love is.

And if I were him, I'd certainly be wondering how much my spouse could possibly love me.

I feel sorry for your son - apparently his wife and mother put their politics above their love for him.

[Mari333]

9. gee, we had a choice between knowing he could be killed in Afghanistan

or not speaking to him.

kiss off.

Hes glad we helped him choose. Ignore feature now.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

32. Mari

I told my son that if he tried to join the military I would find some Heroin, plant it somewhere in his room and call
the cops. Crazy I know, but that is how I felt.

[L0oniX]

40. I concur with your ignore selection and added another to my ignore dungeon ...damn war lovers.

[roguevalley]

22. give it a rest. that is unconditional love. my uncle, a first marine at

guadalcanal survivor said he would stick an ice pick in his nephew's ears (my brothers) if they enlisted. They love him enough to tell him they would never speak to him again. that is powerful and that is love.

[babydollhead]

69. I told my son you can go, but your ear stays with me

I used to say "I will chomp off your trigger finger" then, I read how we are sending quadriplegics back to war. so I changed my promise, if he joined the military, I will keep his ear with me.

[dflprincess]

70. My dad was also Pacific theater combat vet (Air Corp)

he begged my eldest cousin to head for Canada when he got his draft notice. The issue became moot when my cousin failed his physical.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

47. Don't try to convince them. For many here "tough love" only applies to kicking a young person out..

of the house and telling them to get a job, but if it's about keeping your family from self destruction in the interest of the powerful then it must be considered assholery.

[proud2BlibKansan]

57. Sending him off to war to die or having him safe at home

I know which choice I'd pick for my kid. :eyes:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

10. That's despicable.

[Mari333]

13. and you are on ignore also little man

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

19. Your actions are still despicable. Ignore it all you want.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

20. Ignore the last bastion of the small minded.

[L0oniX]

42. I used to like you up until now.

That worst outcrop of herd life, the military system, which I abhor . . . This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism–how passionately I hate them! – Albert Einstein

Never was a patriot yet, but was a fool. – John Dryden

A patriot is a fool in ev’ry age. – Alexander Pope.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. – Samuel Johnson

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

54. I like lots of people I disagree with.

I believe threatening your child and your spouse with excommunication if they don't cede to your wishes is despicable behavior. I have no problem with talking them out of it or discouraging it very strongly. Just my take on it. The reason for the threat was due to the risk of life. I risk my life on a regular basis. Firefighting is my chosen profession having my mom or my wife tell me if I didn't quit they would never speak to me again wouldn't go over so well. It has nothing to do with patriotism, just so you know. I wish we didn't have troops in either Iraq or Afghanistan.

[L0oniX]

55. Well at least we agree on gun defense and I respect you for what you do for a living.

I'm also a security guard and I look forward to being in a position to save someones life as I have been trained for. AED CPR

[11 Bravo]

65. My mom told she didn't really sleep from 1970-1971 when I was in Vietnam. But ...

she never threatened to cut me out of her life, and when I was wounded, priority medevacked, and flown home, she even came to visit me at Walter Reed AMC.
Please add me to your ignore list as well, you petty, sanctimonious twit.

[Mari333]

78. your mom never saw one of her sons dead

I have. I cannot go thru another one.
calling names is not kind.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

16. My first and only ignore. Quite the distinction.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

18. Certainly an honor for me.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. Ignore the last bastion of the small minded.

[gratuitous]

14. Takes guts to buck the High Church of Redemptive Violence

Good for you, and ignore the squealing of the acolytes.

[proteus_lives]

25. I'm going to echo that disgust.

I come from a family of military veterans, protesters, straight arrows, ne'er do wells, democrats and republicans. I wouldn't forsake a single one of them.

Deny it all you want but you just admitted that politics are more important to you then family.

[Mari333]

34. if you love someone you dont want them to be blown to bits

its pretty simple.
ignore on

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

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[TxRider]

72. I never served, but I see nothing wrong with it.

But I don't see it as that bad a choice.

There are about 2.8 million people currently serving in some capacity in the military.

Unless you are one of the few that end up in combat your not going to do any killing or have much of chance of being injured. A fisherman has a higher chance of dying on the job.

For people like my nephew, early 20's, dropped out of high school, was stupid and now has do DL due to a DUI, and now is staring at a pretty bleak future it might not be a bad thing, though he likely will not enlist. If they would even take him.

I personally would not try to talk someone out of it, though I would tell them to think seriously about the decision and not rush into it.

Has nothing to do with support for the wars.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

43. Congratulations on the intervention.

Militarism is a destructive thing and needs to be stopped.

[Odin2005]

52. Wow, what a disgusting attitude.

[hack89]

53. You are selfish and small minded.

You don't understand what true love is.

[Raineyb]

58. I wasn't under the impression that true love was allowing your loved one to be

blown to bits for no goddamn good reason.

Of course the ones I love I actually want to stay alive so I don't encourage them to do things that will get them killed.

[hack89]

59. Emotional blackmail is not love.

respecting their decisions whether you accept them or not is.

[tammywammy]

60. +1 n/t

[Mari333]

63. love is not letting your child die.

you are on ignore.

[hack89]

71. You are pathetic. nt

[Raineyb]

76. That respect is a two way street. Your problem is you don't like what

she put her foot down for.

Presumably she didn't raise her child to be cannon fodder and made damn sure it didn't happen. I'm not going to fault her for that. I damn sure will fault you for your rather disgusting language toward the poster though.

[hack89]

77. He is not a child - he is a grown man

she treated him like a child, threatening to withhold her love if he didn't obey. Perhaps coercion and emotional blackmail is how she raised him - perhaps she doesn't know any other way. But there there are few things more pathetic than a parent that won't let their kids grow up to be independent.

Are you familiar with the Pink Floyd song "Mother"?

[vadawg]

83. bingo, its time to cut the umbilical cord, i cant believe a grown man would be manipulated in this

way, my wife hasnt been to happy with some of the stuff ive volunteered for but theres no way she could ever forbid me from doing it, though she can get pretty pissed...

[Mari333]

62. put them on ignore.

they arent worth your time. hugs.

[vadawg]

82. get them killed so i presume you would not encourage being a firefighter or cop

i guess its okay that people like fire medic dave and myself put ourselves out there every day just to keep your precious family from mayby being killed. Jeez people put themselves out there every day knowing it may be their last in order to protect you...

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. *standing ovation*

[AndyA]

4. That's an incredible story.

What is it with the "Military Lifestyle" anyway? It would seem members in the military think it trumps all else. All other responsibilities go out the window when you're in the military, even as a reservist.

I keep thinking about Eisenhower's warning regarding the military-industrial complex. There was a reason we were warned.

[dysfunctional press]

5. if it weren't for our brave military in irag and afghanistan- we'd all be speaking farsi right now!

that thick green line is all that separates us from total capitulation to, and groveling servitude under, ruthless taliban rule in america. :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

or something like that...:shrug:

[virgogal]

7. I know----and they are all VOLUNTEERS !!!!! I understood this stuff when there

was a draft,but no more.

And they are hardly going to set up recruitment centers outside the senior centers.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

6. Go Mom Go!

This is one great article, and good for her!

She has real courage.

I love it!

K&R

[slackmaster]

11. So, giving kids who have nowhere to go an opportunity for a career is a bad thing?

A career that strengthens the body, teaches discipline, and provides a broad spectrum of opportunity to learn skills that can lead to job opportunities in the civilian world.

What a drama queen.

[Hekate]

24. As my friend Lane in the VFP points out, it's the only "career" where death and maiming are a given

He, like most in our local chapter, is a combat vet. He spends a lot of his time tabling at the local college, doing counter-recruitment education. He does guest lectures in classrooms when invited.

Strangely enough, counter-recruitment activities are not welcomed in the local high schools--even though military recruiters have frequent and unfettered access to high school campuses.

Of all the men and women vets I met during my volunteer activities during the Bush years, not one was a drama queen. Many had PTSD and other wounds, certainly. But no drama queens.

Hekate

[pipoman]

46. Your friend is wrong

"it's the only "career" where death and maiming are a given"

I know many, and statistically most, military members serve their time and get out without ever being killed or maimed, therefore it is certainly not "a given" any more than death and maiming are not a given for law enforcement officers, fire fighters, bounty hunters, debt collectors, mine workers, or any number of other jobs with a risk factor..so you see your friends statement is simply erroneous..

He, like most in our local chapter, is a combat vet. He spends a lot of his time tabling at the local college, doing counter-recruitment education. He does guest lectures in classrooms when invited.

I have to wonder, how many people does he actually employ? Or is he there telling people how there are so many other options without offering any?

Strangely enough, counter-recruitment activities are not welcomed in the local high schools--even though military recruiters have frequent and unfettered access to high school campuses.

No, nor are other political activists welcomed to protest in local high schools. I am sure that if these "counter-recruitment" activists had anything resembling a career option they may be welcomed at a career day...no, they simply want to squawk about the bad, bad military option, which has paid the tuition of more college grads than any other employer in history.

[Hekate]

51. I actually started to write a lengthy and reasonable reply to you, but then realized ...

... it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference in how you see the world.

Carry on.

Hekate

[pipoman]

74. It has nothing to do with "the way I see the world",

it has to do with your misguided friend's, and your own flawed logic...hard to counter the truth.

[Bigmack]

26. You ever in?...

I'm very proud I was a Marine... at the same time, I'm deeply ashamed of what this country did with my service. That is the most profound dichotomy of my life.
I'm grateful to the Corps for doing all that shit you listed, but I have yet to find a civilian counterpart to MOS 0331.. machine gunner.
Any recruiter even remotely honest will tell a kid that the whole purpose of service is to serve, not to get training, or to get over the bad habits of a lifetime, or to get in shape. It's to serve.
Drama queen? A little harsh, I think. I'd been back from Vietnam about a month - an entirely different person - when my mother cried and asked me when she'd get her son back. I guess she was just a drama queen, too.

[grantcart]

28. thanks for your service Bigmack

[Missy Vixen]

29. Bigmack, thank you for your service to our country

I am embarrassed that anyone on this website could make a comment like the above.

If your mom is still with us, please give her a hug from me.

[slackmaster]

38. I couldn't qualify because of eye problems. My brother is in, and we are all proud of him.

I have no problem with anything he has done as a Naval officer. (He'll become a Captain next year.)

[Paladin]

39. Yeah, But You've Got That Swell Collection Of Military Firearms, Right?

I guess you figure that entitles you to refer to the woman as a "drama queen".

Hope your brother stays safe........

[slackmaster]

79. My stepfather joined the Navy in 1934 to get out of poverty

He was 15 and working for the Civilian Conservation Corps in 1938 when he contracted rheumatic fever.

The meals they fed him at Balboa Naval Hospital was the best food he had ever eaten.

He served one tour, re-enlisted, ended up staying in because of the timing of World War II. The Navy educated him in electronics. He retired from the service in 1956 and went on to a career as electronic systems design enginineer, without ever attending high school.

He never discouraged anyone from joining the military. He was a loyal Democrat, very generous, and a good man. He didn't stalk people or make idiotic snarky remarks about their hobbies, either.

[westerebus]

64. 2/4 3rd Mar Div 0331 RVN 1969/70. n/t

[Bigmack]

73. M - 3 - 7 RVN 1966-7....

The Pig was heavy, huh? I still have the bulges in my forearms.

[westerebus]

87. Kicked my ass on a regular basis.

Then again I was number one ammo humper most of my tour.

[L0oniX]

44. A career in killing ...nice.

[slackmaster]

80. My brother has never killed anyone, neither has anyone who has served under him

When he was running a minesweeper, his actions to clear unexploded ordnance from Iraqi waters may have saved many lives.

He did some anti-piracy work in the summer of 2007. That may have saved lives too.

:hi:

[Nikia]

61. My little brother graduated high schol in an area with >12% unemployment

He took tech classes in auto body repair, but that didn't seem to increase his chance of getting a job. Even though he is "gifted", he only did well enough grade wise to stay athletically eligible. This fall, he joined the air force and is getting air traffic control training. Given the alternatives, I think that it is good for him.

[slackmaster]

81. Thanks. I'm glad it's working out for him.

One positive reply out of four is about par for the course on this silly forum.

[JohnyCanuck]

12. kick n/t

[Echo In Light]

15. Outstanding. Heartfelt K&R!!!

[pitohui]

17. is it better to have nowhere to go and to have no job than to join the military?

i don't see why this argument would convince anyone to lose any sleep:

I am so against what you are doing. You strategically placed this recruiting center so that kids who are either coming out of high school with nowhere to go, or those who graduate college in lots of debt and no jobs because of the economy are enticed to join the military."

isn't giving someone an opportunity is better than a person having no opportunity? i mean, i'm completely opposed to the war in iraq but this argument seems weak..."OMG you're offering my kid w. no chance of a job a chance of a job! you evil man you!"

[KakistocracyHater]

23. let's see a guaranteed opportunity to get shot at, cross areas with ieds

possibly seeing the friends you make get blown into pieces, have people say you don't have ptsd, not much help on integrating back into civilian life, not much psychological help....... I guess it sounds great if you haven't been thru it or know someone who has.

[slackmaster]

86. Civilian police officers and taxi drivers are more likely to get shot than are US military people

Most people who serve never see combat.

[cornermouse]

31. When did a chance at a "job" that has a high possibility to be

lethal (see soldier in a war) become a desirable option? Better dead than unemployed? Is that what you're saying?

[jmowreader]

56. About thirty or forty years ago

[KakistocracyHater]

88. well SOMEONE said soldiers never even see combat, even with a surge

coming up in Afghanistan, multiple tours in Iraq.......their minds are already made up, reality does not interfere with their views.

[Cid_B]

27. Snobby and elitist...

"But they were in such shock, after spending the morning celebrating their existence, to hear that now they would be up against an angry mom, and counter-recruiters, put their small pea brains on overload.

In the new age of Obama, recruiting is a cushy job. "

Glad she feels so superior to those "pea-brains". :eyes:

Also, if she had a clue she wouldn't refer to recruiting as "easy." She comes off as deluded, snobby and a holier-than-thou idiot.

The same goes for everyone who forced their decisions on their husbands and children. Politics over family. Lovely choices.

[Mudoria]

30. I think she had to say that to show how "enlightened" she was

You know that superiority complex many folks have.

[Cid_B]

33. Six of one.. half a dozen of the other...

You're right though... How would everyone know how amazing they were if they didn't go to a place of business and shout it in someone's face and then promptly write about it on the intertubes? :)

edit: spelling is tuf

[Mari333]

36. bullshit.

families dont want to see their children come home in body bags

thats not politics, thats loving your kids.

now feck off.

you are on ignore

[Cid_B]

37. Thanks for clarifying that...

My parents must not love me... or they let me make my own choices as a grown man. Whatever works for you...

You sure got a lot of ignores out of this one post. If you keep it up you'll reach your goal of blocking everyone who has a different point of view.

[Hard_Choices]

89. No one wants to see their loved ones, let alone their children, die.

With that being said I want you to know that I'm not trying to offend anyone but some times the truth hurts.

I am a mother of two, the oldest and only girl out of 7 children. I have served my country for almost the past 5 years. I didn't join the military because there was an economic crisis, I felt the overwhelming urge to protect the rights and freedoms of not just my family and loved ones but of my fellow countrymen (and women for the super politically correct) as well. I left a perfectly good career, a career that there was no way on this earth I would ever fear that my life was in danger.

There are some that say it was very selfless of me to put my self out there, to risk my own well being not for just my family and dear friends, but for perfect strangers. I'll tell you right now that it was not selfless ... matter of fact it was one of the most selfish things I've done in my life. And I will continue to do it until I know that my children, my little brothers and the rest of the people in my family and everyone in each of your families don't have to wake up to the horrors that myself and even worse my brothers and sisters in arms have seen and experienced. I want to put my head on my pillow at night knowing that I've done everything in my power to contribute to their safety, and that's what I will do even if it does mean that I have to give my life for it like so many people before me.

Now I know what some of you are thinking, how could I knowingly put my children at risk of loosing their mother? Or how could I knowingly put my mother through possibly having to bury her own daughter? Well my children will know how very much I love them because I was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for not only them but for perfect strangers. I hope that one day they will have as much compassion for their fellow man. My mother understands how important it is to me that I am able to do this and she supports me. Is she scared I may not come home some day? Of course she is. But you would never be any the wiser as she beams with pride when she introduces me to someone new ... I'm her daughter, the Marine.

My older cousin died at the age of 20, (I was only 18) in a car accident leaving his 13 month old little girl with out her daddy and why? Because there was some kid doped up behind the wheel coming down the cross road with his buddies daring him to run a red light. What good did it do? He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

At 14 I lost a dear friend of mine (also 14), his heart stopped for no reason, the kid had never had any sort of health problems his entire life, they said it was a freak accident.

How many of you have had friends loose their lives to "freak accidents" or being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Some of you talk about sending your children off to die, you've done it from the time they were born, you exposed them to this world, so why NOW are you so concerned?

You oppose a war that you know nothing about.

You haven't seen the destitute some of these people have had to live in and how we have made their lives better.

I hope you never have to see it, and if you think what you see on the news is what its all about trust me you haven't even seen half the story.

War is not always about killing nor is it always the answer but when the bad guys have guns you don't approach them with handshakes and hugs unless you have a death wish or bullet proof skin.

The people we fight kill indiscriminately, they don't care how old you are, what color your hair is, where you grew up, or if you have a family; and if you stop fighting before the war is over all you are doing is opening the door and inviting them in to your home to slaughter your family.

You treat your own service men and women like we are criminals, heathens and blood thirsty warmongers, when all most of us want to do is protect what we hold so dear to us.

I fully understand the fear of loosing someone near and dear to you but did you ever stop to think that they may be afraid too and this is their way of ensuring your safety after you have given so much to them?

Have enough love and respect and, I don't know, maybe some pride in the fact you raised a child who is willing to take the harder road, and to make the hard choices so that the people they love don't have to.

Courage is not the absence of fear but the ability to overcome it.

Once again I'm sorry if I offended anyone. It was no my intention but this is my heart felt opinion.

[Kerrytravelers]

90. There are many service men and women on this site, both active duty and veteran.

"You treat your own service men and women like we are criminals, heathens and blood thirsty warmongers, when all most of us want to do is protect what we hold so dear to us."

We do not.


You oppose a war that you know nothing about.

Does that include the soldiers who have been there and come home to oppose it?




These are, of course, rhetorical questions. You haven't read DU in depth enough to really know what this site is all about.

[Hard_Choices]

96. Kerry, I was not directing those questions

to the entirety of the members of the site, I apologize if it came off that way.

[MisterP]

92. what "bad guys"? the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, not the other way around nt

[Hard_Choices]

97. But we are not fighting

their people ... if you don't know who we are fighting by now then you really don't care.

[L0oniX]

41. Well this will bring out the lovers of the military and war for sure.

Total insanity ...to have no problem with your children going off to die for nothing/lies/imperial power. Yea they love their children ...in their own minds. They will hate you for not being like them with their patriotic foolishness which they cling to because they are so shallow in morals and so lacking in integrity.

Here's some of my collection of wisdom:

Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy. - Henry Kissinger

Blind obedience to authority is the enemy of the truth. - Albert Einstein

That worst outcrop of herd life, the military system, which I abhor . . . This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism–how passionately I hate them! – Albert Einstein

Never was a patriot yet, but was a fool. – John Dryden

A patriot is a fool in ev’ry age. – Alexander Pope.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. – Samuel Johnson

In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary, patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer, I beg to submit that it is the first. – Ambrose Bierce

Patriotism is as fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone, and irrational as a headless hen. – Ambrose Bierce

That pernicious sentiment, “Our country, right or wrong.” – James Russell Lowell

“My country right or wrong” is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, “My mother drunk or sober.” – G. K. Chesterton

Patriotism which has the quality of intoxication is a danger not only to its native land but to the world, and “My country never wrong” is an even more dangerous maxim than “My country, right or wrong.” – Bertrand Russell

Patrioism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. – George Bernard Shaw

You’ll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is an ephemeral motive that scarcely ever outlasts the particular threat to society that aroused it. – Denis Diderot

To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. – George Santayana

The Athenian democracy suffered much from that narrowness of patriotism which is the ruin of all nations. – H.G. Wells

Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. “Patriotism” is its cult. . . . Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one’s country which is not part of one’s love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship. – Erich Fromm

One of the great attractions of patriotism–it fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat, Bully and cheat, what’s more, with a feeling that we are profoundly virtuous. – Aldous Huxley

Many studies have discovered a close link between prejudice and “patriotism” . . . Extreme bigots are almost always super-patriots – Gordon Allport

It seems like the less a statesman amounts to, the more he loves the flag. – Elbert Hubband

Patriotism varies, from a noble devotion to a moral lunacy. – William Inge

Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism is the passion of fools and the most foolish of passions. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism corrupts history. – Goethe

Into the cultural and technological system of the modern world, the patriotic spirit fits like dust in the eyes and sand in the bearings. Its net contribution to the outcome is obscuration, distrust, and retardation at every point where it touches the fortunes of modern mankind. – Thorstein Veblen

The standardization of mass-production carries with it a tendency to standardize a mass-mind, producing a willing conformity, not merely to common ways of living, but to common ways of thinking and common valuations. The worst defect of patriotism is its tendency to foster and impose this common mind, and so to stifle the innumerable germs of liberty. – J.A. Hobson

2. Patriotism and War:

At the bottom of all patriotism is war: that is why I am no patriot. – Jules Renard

No other factor in history, not even religion, has produced so many wars as has the clash of national egotisms sanctified by the name of patriotism. – Preserved Smith

Naturally the common people don’t want war . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders . . . All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism. – Hermann Goering.

That worst outcrop of herd life, the military system, which I abhor . . . This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism–how passionately I hate them! – Albert Einstein

3. Patriotism and Religion:

Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched. – Guy de Maupassant

God and Country are an unbeatable team; they break all records for oppression and bloodshed. – Luis Buñuel

To be patriotic, hate all nations but your own; to be religious, all sects but your own; to be moral, all pretenses but your own. – Lionel Strachey

When a dog barks at the moon, then it is religion; but when he barks at strangers, it is patriotism! – David Starr Jordan

4. The American Syndrome:

If you have a weak candidate and a weak platform, wrap yourself up in the American flag and talk about the Constitution. – Matt Quay

How much longer are we going to think it necessary to be “American” before (or in contradistinction to) being cultivated, being enlightened, being humane, & having the same intellectual discipline as other civilized countries? It is really too easy a disguise for our shortcomings to dress them up as a form of patriotism. – Edith Wharton

The 100 percent American is 99 percent an idiot. – George Bernard Shaw

Treason is in the air around us everywhere. It goes by the name of patriotism. – Thomas Corwin

5. Three relatively positive assessments of patriotism:

A patriot is somebody who protects his country from his government. Or better yet: who has the guts to protect his country from its government. – Piotyr Dirk

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. – George Washington

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. – Thomas Jefferson

[JohnyCanuck]

49. Thanks for that list of quotations. n/t

[THUNDER HANDS]

66. I searched high and low to remember my password so i could respond to this post

My name is Jason. I've been a member of this site for over seven years.

I originally went by the name Magic Rat, and then changed it to this, for those reading this who might remember me.

I haven't posted on this site in about a year. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I posted here.

I'm responding to this thread because I think I have something to say that's important for some who responded above to read.

I got laid off in May of this year. I wasn't able to find work anywhere for months, not in my old profession, not at Burger King, nowhere. My savings were depleted, my credit cards were maxed out, I had to move out of the house I was renting and go back to live with my parents. And at the age of 31, that's quite humiliating.

After much internal deliberation, I made the decision to visit a military recruiter, specifically, the Army.

To make a long story short, I signed up two weeks ago and I ship out for basic training the second week of January.

When I went to the recruiter for the first time I didn't know what to expect, but I knew I would at least have the advantage of, A, not being a 17 year old kid fresh out of high school who couldn't tell when someone was feeding him lies and telling him things just to get him to sign on the dotted line, and, B, more than likely more intelligent than most of the people this recruiter comes across (if not the recruiter himself).

When I finally met with him and over the ensuing weeks the process took, I've gotten to know him, know his story and learned all the things the military did for him and what he did while he was there. He didn't sugarcoat the lifestyle. He didn't gloss over the horrors of military life. He told me about his two tours in Iraq and how his humvee was twice hit by IEDs. He told me about his friends who were killed and the grotesque stuff he witnessed while over there.

As far as I can tell, he's been completely honest with me throughout the whole process.

This isn't to say all military recruiters are angels, or that none of them ever cut corners to keep their numbers up (and my recruiter never hid the fact that being a recruiter was in part a numbers game).

But make no mistake. He didn't drag me off the street and put a gun to my head to make me enlist. He didn't trick me or coerce me or tell me I could be a cook and then set me up to be in infantry.

I went into his office, sat down, and practically begged him for an opportunity to enlist.

Why? Because I have a war fetish and I love the thought of killing people?

No. Anyone who knows me knows I've never so much as held a gun in my life, and any long timers here at DU who remember me as Magic Rat know I was in NYC for the big anti-Iraq war march back in 2002. I marched the streets with tens of thousands of others to stop that war from ever happening.

I had to enlist because there's nothing else out there right now. I don't have to tell anyone who is unemployed and reading this how ACTUALLY bad things are right now - it's not a fraction as horrid as tv news is making it out to be.

Am I ashamed I'm joining the Army? No, not at all. I'm ashamed I'm in the position of having no other options. I'm ashamed I didn't take school more seriously when I was a kid. I'm ashamed I'm having to rely on my parents for food, clothing and shelter when I'm at the age when I should have kids of my own.

But I'm not ashamed I'm joining the Army. I'm proud I'm joining and I'm proud that I have the opportunity to better my life. The private sector job industry is certainly not going to do it for me.

Am I scared? Yes, I'm quite nervous.

But overally I'd rather be nervous about my future than depressed about it, and right now, for the first time in months, I'm no longer depressed about my future.

If the military does nothing else for me, at least I can wake up in the morning and say that I have a chance at something better.

And when you have absolutely nothing in your life, even the smallest chance looks good.


So, just to bring this around to a conclusion, please don't denigrate those who enlist in the military. As much respect as I have for the mothers on this board and everywhere who want the wars to end and their sons and daughters to be brought back - there's more to the military than just war, and when you put down those who walk into a recruiters office as those who only do it because they're being tricked - well, you're displaying a stunnig lack of sensitivity to the very real problems people like me and many others are facing right now. The military might not be the first choice for your loved one if you had your say, but it might be the best choice for your loved one if they had their say. It might.

And I say that with the utmost humility, knowing how sensitive folks are to the thought of losing a loved one.

Thanks for reading,

Jason
(formerly Magic Rat)

[tammywammy]

67. Great post

:thumbsup:

And good luck with your future endeavors.

[Lars39]

84. Best wishes, Jason.

I remember reading of your struggles to find good employment. :hug:

[slackmaster]

85. Thanks, Jason

Wonderful post.

[Shell Beau]

91. I remember you as magic rat. Best of luck to you!!

[Qanisqineq]

94. I wish you the best

My husband got out of the army one year ago this month. He was in the military for a total of 13 years, getting out once and then re-enlisting when he could not find a job. Unfortunately he re-enlisted shortly before the Iraq War. He now works as a contractor (no, not the mercenary kind) on an army base. We don't know when we will leave Korea as his job here is fairly secure and he can't find one in the US. I understand your reasons for enlisting and I just hope you stay safe and do not end up in a war zone. I'm sure you will have many experiences that will help you grow as a person. I wish you the best.

[Kerrytravelers]

95. A friend of ours, who has a very ill wife, joined for the health insurance.

His wife has brain tumors and can not work, nor get insurance. He struggled academically and never really found his niche in life. They now have a very young son. Weighing his options, he joined the Navy. He struggles with this decision, as he was, and still is, strongly against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. But his wife and child now have health insurance. And that was what was important.

As an aside, he has learned some skills that will transfer to another job. He is looking at getting into the Post Office where he will have a union, health care and a decent pay check and a more regular schedule so he can help his ill wife care for their young son.

[Ferretherder]

98. First off, 'Hi, Magic - I DO remember you'.

I am sorry for your trouble finding employment - you and several MILLION other people in our 'wonderful country'. Please don't think I am trying to minimize the desperateness of your OWN situation by pointing out its ubiquitousness, I am merely making the point that FAR, FAR TOO MANY are finding this very situation to be their only real option to a possible life of poverty.

MY, how far we've come, huh?

I , like you, have not posted with any regularity on this forum in quite some time now. I'll tell you, straight up, DU doesn't even RESEMBLE the throng of disillusioned, dis-enfranchised progressives and heretofore non-committal Dems that searched each other out after the beginning of the 'long national nightmare' that was the selection of 'Brainless Dickinhands' as our president. It's also possible that Times and attitudes have moved on and left me 'back there' where this all began. I really don't know.

I DO know that I want decry your decision to do what you must - I am sure you have made a very thorough and reasoned assessment of your particular options and chosen what you feel to be the best, if not only, one. I will not argue with ANYONE as regards a service in the military as being 'good', 'better', or 'best' - I WILL, however, argue till I'm blue in the face with ANYONE who sees no fault with this being one's ONLY option. Again, Jason, this is not directed at YOU or your decision to do ANYTHING that you feel necessary to better your situation.

I only deplore that this IS your only option.

What the fuck is wrong with this country? What the fuck is wrong with this WORLD? Why the holy hell is ANYONE on this planet saying 'I guess I'll have to join the military to make ends meet. Maybe I won't have to kill anybody - maybe I won't get killed. Maybe I'll come out pretty much the same person I was before I went in, I don't know.'?

What kind of FUCKEDUPBEYONDALLRECOGNITION 'option' is THAT?

And I guess I'll have to add, 'Why am I asking all these rhetorical questions that have no clear answer?' to the mix, as well.

I am grateful to those who sacrificed much, or all, that those of us who have not fought can remain 'those of us who have not fought'. I am grateful for those who are willing to risk their lives to guard against this nation being attacked. My hat is off to all military personnel who have, and are serving.

My one most FERVENT and CHERISHED wish in this life is that there would be no NEED or REASON for ANYONE to sacrifice ANYTHING to live alongside their fellow human beings on this planet.

I am probably beyond making any sense, now, so I'll stop.

Ferret.

[treestar]

68. this is taking it a bit far, isn't it?

there has to be a military. We shouldn't go into useless wars. But we still need a military.

[Greyhound]

75. You really touched nerve with your non-worship of violence.

:thumbsup:
:kick: & R

[Shell Beau]

93. I am not anti-military. In fact, I am for having a military because it is needed

unfortunately. I am anti- THIS war (meaning the Iraqi war). And most wars. Some are unpreventable. This one wasn't. But I will not boo on anyone who decides to join the military. I can get behind this woman's message, but some of the responses I have read on this thread are beyond my comprehension I guess. People join for different reasons. It doesn't mean they are pro war. Sometimes it is the last option they have. Sometimes it isn't.