Don't Do It Obama

[Tom Rinaldo]

Don't push the Left's back against the wall and point at us with your finger, no matter how frustrated you may feel. We feel at least as frustrated, and we are more likely to bolt for the wilderness than fall into line in response to that type of treatment.

We can see the direction in which your ire is focused as you struggle to put together a health care package you can pass through Congress. You could have exhorted us to speak up louder for real reform but it seems you would prefer that we piped it down instead.

Preceding the 2004 Presidential elections a remarkable crop of Democratic candidates including, Howard Dean, John Kerry, Wes Clark, John Edwards and Denis Kucinich managed to harness our frustration and eagerness for change and hitch that energy to the Democratic Party wagon. And starting in 2004, after a disastrous 2002 mid term elections, Democrats began to turn around their fortunes. New grassroots based Democratic fund raising opportunities began emerging, and a then still popular war time President almost was unseated. Bet none of us despaired at falling short, and Democrats followed up with huge gains in 2006 and 2008, putting Democrats firmly in power today.

We did that together, the full spectrum of the Democratic Party, but what was new in the formula was a determined and sustained commitment from the Left. You became the leading Democratic candidate for President in 2008 Sir after you inherited the progressive mantle from most of the supporters of the 2004 Democratic candidates that I listed above. We had your back then, and we believed you would have our back later.

There can always be honest differences between allies about what is best moving forward, but only good faith efforts can hold a coalition together under times of stress. We came to the table when we were first called and we contributed there greatly, but now there is a new table set at the White House and it is starting to look like a smaller table with less room reserved for us.

Call us part of the problem rather than the solution and we inevitably will become more of a problem to you and less a party to helping you attain solutions. That simply is how it usually works. Back us off of common ground and eventually you will force us underground. The Republican Party marginalized their activist base back in the 90's and it went underground as a result. When it emerged again it was no longer a helpful partner, it had become a demanding task master that refuses to take any hostages.

You don't want that to happen to the Democratic Party, and we on the left who stood shoulder to shoulder with you these last several years don't want that to happen either. But it might still happen anyway, depending on your choices.

[DebbieCDC]

1. Once he got our votes that was it for the left/progressives

Obama only cared to pay lip service to our concerns long enough to get in the WH.

Since then we've got Bush lite -- Wall Street give-aways, deals with Big Pharma and Big Insurance, no pushing for repeal of DADT, no criminal investigation of Bushco, no REAL health insurance reform, this fake pas de deux with LIE-berman, etc.

We've been used like a $2.00 whore folks. Painful to hear, I know. I supported Obama with money and petitions and emails and everything I could do. So did a lot of us. And see where it got us.

[bvar22]

61. Obama pushed our backs against The Wall when he did this:

The DLC New Team
Republican Lite ONLY
Working Class Democrats Need NOT Apply

(Screen Capped from the DLC Website)

[SIMPLYB1980]

2. Do it.

imo

[jgraz]

52. You know, I almost never put people on ignore. But I'm making an exception in this case.

I don't mind people disagreeing with me -- in fact, I usually enjoy it. To earn a spot on the ignore list, you have to prove that you have absolutely nothing of value to add to the conversation. Absolutely. Nothing.

Now, every time I see "ignored" in the thread list, I'll know that I've saved myself a few seconds of complete inanity. And I'll be happy.

[SIMPLYB1980]

79. LOL!

:nopity:

[ima_sinnic]

80. +1 (nt)

[jgraz]

97. Obviously, "Ignored" is a bit unclear on the concept of an ignore list

But I'm sure that whatever he said, it was completely worthless.

[freddie mertz]

3. He has already done it. And he will pay the price.

It will be a long time (if ever) before I trust him again.

And I know I am not alone.

We are many.

[Fire1]

84. "And he will pay the price." NOT! n/t

[Fire1]

85. "We are many?????" Let me stay the fuck away from YOU!! n/t

[FiveGoodMen]

4. It's mighty obvious by now that Obama is here to carry on the Bush legacy

He protected them
He's protecting those that gave them legal cover for torture
He's continuing to push for censorship and secrecy
He's dissing the left but reaching out to the right...

He's one of them, not one of us.

I don't think there's enough pressure in the world to get him to do decent things.

We need to dump him as fucking fast as we can.

[Bluebear]

5. Sing it.

[Tom Rinaldo]

9. I still feel he is far far better than Bush

And I do not believe we can dump him even if we tried.

[FiveGoodMen]

10. Then we are destined to live and die in an America that none of us will recognize.

[Tom Rinaldo]

11. Perhaps, but I would rather consider this a down within a series of ups and downs

And I hope for slight overall improvement (from my perspective) from this Administration moving forward. I never mistook Obama for a true progressive but I backed his campaign against McCain without illusions. I like to think that Obama leans Liberal but I believe he is what we have to work with in the White House regardless until 2016 when his second terms ends or the Republican who replaces him in 2012 comes up for reelection.

During that time I hope we can work with Obama to the extent possible while we build the progressive movement inside the Democratic Party. But that depends on a degree of mutual respect.

[FiveGoodMen]

12. At this point I think Obama is a Trojan Horse

I think he's a member of the other side who was hand-picked to let us think we won.

I don't believe there's any such thing as working with him because the whole point of his presidency is to work against us (hopefully without our noticing).

I don't know whether there is anyone we can work with that will be allowed to get into power, but I'm sure this one is a republican mole.

[denem]

14. 'hand-picked' by Hillary perhaps?

What utter nonsense. You would say that whoever won in your aluminum wonderland, perhaps with the exception of nominee Kucinich being trounced in the GE. Then you would say the Democrats intended him to loose, in order to ramp up the DLC takeover of the party.

[FiveGoodMen]

16. Hand picked by the PTB . Same ones that would have been fine with Hillary in the White House

The sun will also rise in the East tomorrow. Want to call that nonsense as well?

[denem]

18. Oh, you'd start talking about an incoming black hole,

if Obama said that.

[cascadiance]

88. And I think they liked what they probably knew as the "vulnerable" John Edwards as our choice!

to be a "realistic" option for change from the corporate choices at the top of the ticket. By having us all put our votes there instead of someone like Kucinich, it was a lot easier for them to wait till after the big primaries came up and passed and pushed him out by threatening to expose him. Don't know if Edwards was complicit in this, but it all smells like "the plan" to keep anyone else that might have been in for the long haul as a viable challenger (aka Dennis), if we knew all of the true stories at the beginning of primary season.

Once again, my old photoshop seems to have some more meaning today...

[Tom Rinaldo]

19. If you insist of thinking of Obama as a Republican

then you have to reach back to a different breed of Republican than those who inhabit Congress now. He is clearly to the left of Olympia Snowe for example. Once upon a time John McCain was considered a fairly moderate voice in that Party, the Democratic Party even attempted to get him to switch sides. He is clearly way right of Obama now.

Could be you really think this was all a conspiracy that Obama and the Republicans pulled off on us, if so I think that's whacko. Reality is problematic enough.

[FiveGoodMen]

24. Wacko it is, then.

I don't see any other explanation for his actions except that he's working for the other side.

[Tom Rinaldo]

25. For the record I concede that sometimes whacko is correct :) n/t

[FiveGoodMen]

26. Fair enough.

:hi:

[rusty fender]

55. Obama is not a leader, he is not a great man;

he is a corpratist, a mere politician. We had dared to hope that he was the real thing, but we were punked.

[bertman]

58. Tom, what FiveGoodMen is saying is not whacko if you consider the way the game is played

over the long haul. The moneyed interests, PTB, corporate elite, Military-Industrial-Corporate Complex--whatever you want to call them-- know that an outright takeover would lead to horrible bloodshed and destruction in this country. The best plan is incremental takeover and they have succeeded in mastering that approach. With each step from Reagan to Obama there were some major pushes toward fascism, then some breathing space--breathing space being times when Democratic Congresses and Presidents were allowed to be elected and weaken some of the most egregious wrongs. But NEVER repeal them outright or take us back to a time when the PTB had less control.

We tend to conflate times of economic well-being and security with advancement of little d democratic government, when that is not the case at all. The Clinton years are the best example of that phenomenon. We were living the good life--most of us at least--and things seemed just fine, yet we reaped a leap in the direction of a "security state", a repeal of laws that had protected the working and small-time investing classes, and a national case of schizophrenia that lead to the election of George W. Bush. Then came the Great Leap Forward Into Fascism--and they didn't really even try to camouflage it. Then they had to snatch the election from Kerry and hand it over to Bush to keep the train rolling at full speed for another four years. (Kerry would have been a mild antidote but certainly no cure for the terminal illness that was the Bush/Cheney cabal, but why would the PTB want to remove the hard-core fascists when they had only partially completed their plans?).

When it became painfully obvious that the jig was up and the people were onto it, they had to allow a return to a more measured approach to gaining complete control. That's why Obama the candidate became a viable alternative to Hillary the candidate. They knew that both were Corporate Dems who could be entrusted with the reins and controlled. If President Obama's failure to push for prosecution of BushCo for their treachery, the ongoing theft of our national treasure under the Wall Street cabal, and his revitalization of the War in Afghanistan weren't enough, we now have the complete giveaway of America's medical well-being to the Corporate interests. (Incidentally, it should be noted that President Obama's first choice of Tom Daschle for Sec of Health and Human Services was entirely consistent with every other cabinet appointee who hews closely to the corporate line). The measures that President Obama has enacted that are progressive in nature all fall far short of anything that would stem the tide of the fascist takeover, much less slow it down.

The Man who brought us Hope for Change was the perfect media candidate for the time. And now he is working hard for those who control the Congress and the national agenda. And it sure isn't We the People.

It pains me to finally admit that this is the case, but it seems pretty obvious at this point.

[Tom Rinaldo]

72. Not whacko at all on the Meta level

That is where the basic similarity between the Democratic and Republican parties comes into focus. But that has been true for generations, Obama is barely a new ripple in that one pond though some may have mistakenly thought otherwise. If you put on the blinders that mainstream politics inherently imposes, there are still some differences within that framework between today's Republican and Democratic Partys. I don't buy that Obama is a secret Republican mole, I think he, for better or worse, in a legitimate mainstream Democrat.

[bvar22]

62. It WAS a grand marketing coup...Brand Obama.

Well played.

Cheap Talk.
Chump Change.

[shadowknows69]

39. That above everything causes me the most pain.

[Toasterlad]

40. Please Explain How.

[Tom Rinaldo]

48. Supreme Court, Energy Policy, Environmental Policy, thousands of sundry appointments etc.

Look at who Obama wanted as UN Ambassador compared to Bush. But really look deep into the ranks of Under Secretaries and Assistant Under Secretaries and compare.

But using Bush as a bench mark is ridiculously easy...

[youngharry]

96. Better than Bush?

I'm not so sure. We had no expectation with Bush. We knew he didn't give a damn for the middle class or those less fortunate even to be able to make it to the range of middle class. NOT SO with Obama, he gave us an expectation and he has betrayed us BIG TIME. That is not forgivable and I'm sure his Mother and his Grandparents would not forgive him either. More importantly, he has betrayed his children as they will learn what he has done with their Father's legacy.

[MissDeeds]

27. Yes, he is protecting them

Where is the outrage? Why is he getting away with giving them a pass? What a complete disaster this beacon of "change" has proven to be.

[Toots]

44. We are not alone in that belief either, the entire world is starting to feel that way.

The USA was dissed "Big time" in Copenhagen. Only a few short months ago Obama was adored throughout the world. It has been my observation that the world does not like Republican governance and they are beginning to recognize Obama for what he is. I would bet anything that if given another chance the Nobel Committee would not give Obama the Peace Prize. Funny how the entire world picks up so quickly what we also acknowledge but the Republicans still just exhibit Hatred.

[HuckleB]

6. I don't think Obama had to do or say anything.

The mob was already at his doorstep.

[ima_sinnic]

81. what mob is that?

I just want to make sure you're not saying that certain "lefties" were already ready to tear him down when he entered office.

[rudy23]

7. So, can we the people pressure Obama as effectively as Corporate America, the MIC and the Bushies?

Until we can apply that kind of pressure, then we are pretty far down the list of people he's concerned with satisfying.

[mmonk]

8. Yes, having Rahm give us the finger and a dare isn't advisable right now.

There is increasing evidence some are going to call the bluff.

[Tom Rinaldo]

28. They will suffer the after effects of resulting estrangement for years to come

The immediate effects are just the tip of the iceberg.

[bvar22]

63. We have The Video.

When they come around during the next campaign, I'm breaking out the YouTube.

Here is a GOOD one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZG8Zq8V54k

[Wardoc]

30. Agreed! They not only punk us out now, but they mock and high five each other while doing it...

but come election time, they will be yelling at us to come vote and mobilize. Fuck that. I'm spending any money I might have next time on me instead. And I'll be too busy playing XBox or washing my hair or scratching my ass to bother voting for those who belittled me.

I do not have a short memory. I'm calling their bluff.

[whathehell]

73. Just sayin....

Rahm is a former Illinois congressman who was accused by Dems in my state -- right here on DU -- of picking Republicans to run as Democrats...Not to "convert" them...Just to "fake it", I believe..

Now, I'm NOT saying this to imply that the president is a "stealth republican"...I don't think he is, I think he's just definite DLC..I'm just bringing up Rahm because I'm wondering about "influence" and because he has a piss poor reputation with Illinois DUers

[Laelth]

13. Good advice. I hope it reaches the right ears. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[UTUSN]

15. Oh. A "base" that's ready to bolt at the first sign of difficulty. What a base, what a base. n/t

[Mithreal]

29. First sign? nonsense

[Wardoc]

31. First sign?!?!?! AYFKM?????? Just how many times would be your threshold before saying "too much"?

[Frank Cannon]

38. First sign? Shirley, you jest.

Apparently, you're not familiar with the story of Charlie Brown and the football.

[piratefish08]

42. First sign?? Are you joking?

[bvar22]

64. First Sign?......lets do a quick review:

The DLC New Team
Progressives Need NOT Apply

(Screen Capped from the DLC Website)


*WARS fully funded and EXPANDING. Bill sent to our children…...Mission Accomplished !

*Trillion Dollars given to friends and campaign contributors on Wall Street. No Strings Attached...Mission Accomplished!

*Military Spending INCREASED....Mission Accomplished!

*Trillion+ Dollars given to the Health Insurance Industry. Easily Avoidable, symbolic only strings attached....Mission almost Accomplished!


*Force all Americans to buy invisible products from For Profit Corporations who produce nothing tangible and create no wealth.....Mission almost Accomplished!

*Kill the possibility for a REAL "Public Option" or REAL Universal Health Care for at least another generation, and begin the “Entitlement Reform” defunding of Medicare (-$500 Billion)....Mission almost Accomplished!

*Block ANY REAL re-regulation of BIG BANKS and Credit Cards....Mission Accomplished!

*Protect the Bush War Criminals and Torturers from JUSTICE....Mission Accomplished.

*Throw the GBLTs under the bus and expand "faith based" initiatives....Mission Accomplished!

*Reinforce the worst Police State provisions of the Patriot Act....Mission Accomplished!

*Protect the very richest. Tell the Working Class that they CAN WILL compete with 3rd World Slave Labor for their jobs.....Mission Accomplished!

*EFCA (Employee Free Choice Act) killed in the crib....Mission Accomplished!

*More Anti-LABOR "Free Trade"....Mission almost Accomplished!

*Jobless Recovery....Mission Accomplished

*The Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party SHUT OUT of the Obama Administration…...Mission Accomplished!

*Accelerate the destruction of Public Education...Mission Accomplished!

*Bury next generation under such a debt burden that they will never be able to afford any social or economic programs that will benefit their Working Class....Mission Accomplished.



Thats SOME "First Sign"

What next?
"Reforming" Social Security and Medicare?
.
.
.
.
OOPS! That IS next on the Corporate DLC Hit List.

[suzie]

69. Were you a prosecutor in your former life?

[ima_sinnic]

82. no, he bolted from the base

the "base" for a politician is the people who do the work to get him elected. The people who pound the pavement, knock on doors, contribute time as well as money--the dedicated people who INVEST energy in someone they truly feel is going to be the best in that office, the supporters.

those people are fleeing the exits because, so far, "Yes We Can" has become a constant litany of "No We Can't." Promises have been broken, expectations have not been met, and, worse, energy has been devoted to entirely UNDemocratic Party ideals and visions--and this has been going on for a LONG time, relative to this administration--as in, since DAY ONE, beginning with Rick Warren for a great many, and it's all been downhill from there. I pretty much bailed when he started appointing Republicans like Rahm Emmanuel (don't try to correct me and say he's a "democrat") and JUDD GREGG??!! (what in hell was that about? That was when the word "bonehead" first crossed my mind in close proximity to Obama's name)--but I've tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, and there just is no longer any doubt--I've been had, I regret the money I contributed, and I feel embarrassed about so strongly convincing people to vote for him. It's like writing a letter of recommendation for a colleague and having that person turn out to be a scam artist in the new job.

[David Zephyr]

17. Karl Rove knew one thing. You don't piss off your core, your activists.

And Karl Rove and George Bush got every legislative thing they wanted, even with Tom Dashle running the Senate.

Bush never had super majorities and he got everything his way.

This triangulation shit won't work.

Obama will be a lame duck for three years without the Left.

Axelrod is dumber than Karl Rove. Dumber.

[Wardoc]

32. Agreed, but Rove isn't dumb. Axelrod, however, is a total moron. Rove would never mock Rush.

Unlike how Axelrod is going after Dean.

[upi402]

20. He is not out friend.

The Democratic party is not our friend, most of them.

They left me decades ago and I didn't like waking up to that fact. But I did.

[David Zephyr]

21. Don't do it, Obama? He's already done it.

And today he just gave a big "fuck you" to the GLBT community for the holidays.

He's a liar. There's not a nice way to say it.

I have a new sig line. There's so many though, it should be a moving ribbon of lies.

[Tom Rinaldo]

23. Clinton made mid course corrections when his political survival depended on it

It is still early in Obama's first term, and nothing really has happened to humble him before now. He was kind of a golden boy in the Democratic Party, floating above Republican flak and believing that his charisma and his story and the lack of any other obvious choices would continue to keep the left in line. Obama is not a progressive but a permanent deep schism with the progressive wing of the Democratic Party is not yet inevitable IF he modifies his course.

[katkat]

35. David Zepher

Another bad thing affecting GLBTs? What was it?

[Toasterlad]

41. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4191251

[mddem9850]

22. truly frustrating

[waronbanks]

33. Obama is a corporate whore

He is not interested in helping people. we were duped. He has lost me forever...this political system is clearly corrupted beyond repair and Obama makes that clear. Only an open revolt against this corrupt and sick government will stop it. we are governed by corporate marauders and murderers.They dont care if people are dying, going broke, struggling in a day to day to fight against corporate interests and the wealthy because they ARE the corporate interests.

[katkat]

34. theories

(1) Obama is a tool of corporate interests, either due to his own inclinations (see: Lieberman as mentor) or insecurity with Rahm driving the train.

(2) Obama is a "good Christian" sort of a la Jimmy Carter (whom I admire for his post-Presidential work) and thinks he can bring his enemies to the table for a rational discussion. To which I would point out, Mr. President, even Jesus threw the creeps out of the temple, but I guess Obama skipped that part of the Bible.

(3) He's just f*ing incompetent. Intellectual capacity doesn't equal street smarts.

[rpannier]

36. For his first year

#3

[bvar22]

65. #1...Tool of the Corporate Interests with GREAT Marketing.

A rookie Senator from Chicago showed up at the Iowa Caucus with $100 Million Dollars and an Up & Running Political Machine.
Somebody brought him to that dance, and that someone expects to Be PAID.

The Grooming and Marketing of Brand "Obama" began at the 2003 Democratic Convention.

[abq e streeter]

78. or scariest of all perhaps; theory # 4...Bill Hicks: "any questions?"

after the new president is shown a film of JFK's assassination, shot from the grassy knoll, by the "12 capitalist/industrialist scumfucks" that "got you there".

[xkenx]

37. It's time for Clark '12 or Dean '12

With Obama's mandate, he could have muscled recalcitrant Dems for a strong healthcare bill a la LBJ and succeeded. But he has proved to be spineless. He either hasn't learned to be sufficiently tough or is just incapable of being sufficiently tough. One can be a strong tough leader without compromising integrity, honesty, honor. You would have thought that Obama would have learned that from the rough and tumble of Illinois politics. And Rahm Emanuel is not helping him--the man's political instincts are old school. Rahm, in 2006, as DCCC chairman wanted to pursue the "ignore red states" strategy. It was Howard Dean, as DNC chairman, who successfully pursued the 50 state grassroots strategy that retook Congress and the Presidency for Obama.
This spinelessness never would have happened in a Wes Clark or a Howard Dean presidency. It is time for Clark '12 or Dean '12. I am so steamed I can scarcely write coherently.

[katkat]

43. Not Clark

Did you miss the part about Clark running at the Clintons' behest, to derail Dean's candidacy? Clark would be another tool of the DLC.

[Tom Rinaldo]

45. Let's not start causing our own splits now over hypothetical scenarios

We have real contentious issues facing us right now. I'll stop right there.

[Stinky The Clown]

46. Did you hear the one about the guy that tried to shit in the woods after crossing the road ......

....... ?

:eyes:

[xkenx]

49. Sorry, Wes Clark was/is nobody's tool

If you knew anything about Wes Clark's character, you would not have uttered that phrase. Suggest you do your homework.

[katkat]

56. homework

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2003/11/17/031117fa_fact

"By mid-September, many Democrats were eager to be convinced that Wesley Clark was what Bill Clinton had reportedly declared him to be—the only Democrat besides Hillary Clinton who qualified as a true political “star.” He was the anointed choice of many in the Clinton wing of the Party, the stop-Dean candidate charged with keeping Democrats tethered to the center."

[Tom Rinaldo]

66. I have at least 500 posts I've made here I can reference in reply

I've been through the 2004 Prmiary Wars and my DU bookmarks from then are intact, as are my bookmarks for 2006, 2007, and 2008. Since Clark is NOT running for any office now I suggest you back off trying to discredit him as it serves no helpful purpose other than furthering divisions here now, unless that is your intent of course.

[katkat]

75. saying the truth isn't "discrediting"

I live in terror of your bookmarks :silly:

We've got one ringer, we don't want another.

[Tom Rinaldo]

76. Start a seperate OP on your concerns and I would gladly debate you

I will not fall into that on this one. Thanks for the kick by the way :).

[JVS]

92. Oh come on. If you want to see someone who has an agenda from right when primary 2004 was heating up

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=135041

[Tom Rinaldo]

93. So?

xkenx has great respect for Clark - though I suspect those specific comments were made back when he was running or considering running for President. Lots of people on this thread have similar feelings of respect for Howard Dean and say so. Many here once made comments along those lines about Obama.

But xkenx didn't start a debate about Clark here, xkenx responded to a put down of him. Look around DU, it is full of Dean supporters defending Dean against put downs, and Obama supporters defending Obama that way also. That's not an agenda, that's sticking up for someone you believe in when they are attacked and that is par for the course at DU. But unlike Obama and even Dean to an extent, Clark did not thrust himself into the center of this HCR debate, which makes an attack on him here and now even more gratuitous.

[JVS]

94. xkenx didn't start a debate about Clark, he started a threadjack about Clark

and when that happens people who think he's in league with the Clinton wing of the DLC shouldn't hold their tongues

[Tom Rinaldo]

95. An expression of support for Dean or Clark

If it stayed at simple expressions of opinion it would have been conventional tit for tat: "I think so" vs "I don't think so". But instead there came the linked media story which leads to a spiral circle dance that has been the subject of thousands of posts here in the past. Clark supporters believe that story has thoroughly been debunked, those who don't trust him strongly disagree. My point is that by entering into this thread which is not about Clark something that many at the time once considered a inaccurate hit piece, it opened the door to another long ugly reprise of those divisive times.

For the sake of this exchange with you I am trying to use nuetral language. It is factual that many thought that linked artical was slanted and also many did not - which makes it controversial. The style of discussion usually employed here at DU traditionally is not to allow a posted linked story to go unrebutted when there are those who believe it both can and should effectively be rebutted.

My suggestion both was and remains this; if anyone thinks it relevant and important enough to begin a debate on Clark's trustworthieness, character, politics or whatever so strongly that they want to start linking to outside sources in support of their position, please start a new thread to do so on. This thread has nothing to do with Clark's past or future. Those who are so interested can trot out all of their link supported arguments there and then we can have a grand old time reliving the 2004 primary wars.

[xkenx]

100. Read my post #86

To equate Wes Clark with DLC types is ludicrous.
Gratuitous attacks on Clark mystify me since they come from a place of non-knowledge about his progressiveness. So what is it?
I'll offer a thought, since this has been going on for 6 years. There is an element here and elsewhere among Democrats to be opposed to a former military general just because he was, despite his opposition to war, except as a last resort. So they make up a criticism, rather than state the real reason.

[xkenx]

86. Someone writing an article doesn't make it so.

Some in the Clinton camp might have assumed that of Clark because Bill thought highly of him, but they, as you, would have misjudged his character. Again, if you knew anything about Wes Clark, you would know that he was the most progressive of the '04 candidates save Dennis Kucinich. Wes Clark was the rare voice in the mid-90s for intervention in Rwanda (not a position to curry favor with his military superiors). It was the voices of Wes Clark and Madeline Albright who persuaded Clinton to intervene in the Balkans to stop the genocide of Kosovar Albanians (mostly Muslims). It was Wes Clark who, before the IWR vote, testified to Congress against going to war with Iraq. It was Wes Clark who appeared on the cover of the Advocate (the Gay & Lesbian rights magazine) in Feb. '04. "Tethered to the center????"
To accuse Clark of opportunism or being a tool flies in the face of his lifetime of integrity. Dean lost in Iowa because Kerry out-organized him; Clark wasn't even there. Those of us who supported Clark did so because we, at last, had a candidate of great character, integrity, and brilliance, as well as being a proven leader, and a true L-I-B-E-R-A-L.

[cascadiance]

68. Dean '12 in the Primaries... Maybe Sanders/Dean or Dean/Sanders '12 in general election...

... if Dean gets manipulated out of winning the primaries...

[suzie]

71. Go ahead, the past 8 years were so good to us all.

Thank you for wanting to condemn us to 30 more of them.

[cascadiance]

74. If the party in charge just plays a "football game" instead of REAL change, we're still "condemned"!

even now... Some things might not look as ugly as W gave us, but it still is destroying our democracy and our country. There needs to be a way to get a new voice to change things. If it isn't Obama and the Corporate controlled Democratic Party, we need to put together a new voice. I wish that Nader had pushed HARD as a single issue for IRV as a point of negotiation for whether he continued to run or joined the Democrats so that it would free us to run a third party without having to worry about the worst possible scenario, but those are the cards we have been dealt now.

Sorry, but I don't want to see our country and planet die. The CRAPPY emission standards are going to destroy it that this administration is trying to bribe poorer countries to endorse at Copenhagen) will not only kill our country, but the planet as well.

It's not a simple equation, but we need to find a way to fix this system. And if we wait too long, it might become as violent as the French Revolution and the class war will be not just limited to words but be violent as well, and change forever our sense of civility in this country if we still have much left now.

[laughingliberal]

47. Oh, he scores points with the RW and corporatists by talking tough to us

and if that pisses us off it just burnishes his cred with that group. They (him and Rahm) see a huge upside to bashing the left. They use the fact that we are angry to prove to moderates how good the bill must be. I'm serious.

[Tom Rinaldo]

50. I think you are right, and I think that is a very dangerous & ultimately self defeating strategy n/t

[laughingliberal]

51. I think so, too. But Rahm thinks those campaign contributions will more than offset the anger of the

left. After all, Rahm thinks the base is a myth. Continue on this path, and that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. The base will be a myth, the thing of legend Democratic candidates will speak of as in past tense.

[xkenx]

53. Rahm is lost

in old school strategy that Bill Clinton used and failed to enact truly progressive legislation. When Rahm was DCC chairman, he promoted the same tired congressional race strategy of ignoring red states to achieve a marginal victory. It was Howard Dean, as DNC chair, with their money, who pushed the 50 state strategy, contest everything, build the party in all states. Howard Dean was the single biggest reason for Dems. majorities in Congress and the size of Obama's victory. I used to think that Rahm would be good as Obama's "enforcer", but he's just another incrementalist with no real spine.

[laughingliberal]

54. Yes, Rahm thought Dean's strategy was 'fucking stupid' and has been pissed ever since it worked

I'm actually cynical enough to think the real pisser for him is the majorities Dean affected were so high, they lost their cover. After all, with these kinds of majorities, they can't claim the lack of progressive legislation is the fault of Republicans. I think they're getting what they want but they're having to jump through a lot more hoops to fool the left into thinking they had no choice.

I knew I did not like Rahm's politics but hoped when he was appointed that Obama would use his pit bull skills to get the legislation he wanted passed. I think he is doing that. But, back the, I still assumed Obama wanted the things he told us he wanted in the campaign. Eyes open now, a little late.

[katkat]

57. Dean

"It was Howard Dean, as DNC chair, with their money,"

Actually it was probably with our money. Individuals donated their heads off at Howard's request. Let's see how Rahm/Obama like running with mainly corporate money and few feet on the ground.

I encourage people, however, to donate to and work for true progressives instead, regardless of where they are geographically.

[laughingliberal]

59. I think it's the only choice we have nt

[LWolf]

60. He's already done it.

And today my finger points clearly at him:

[Tom Rinaldo]

67. Pretty much, yes

A partial walking back over time is possible, through deeds not words, but only if it a real effort in that direction is made. It is early in the Obama Administration and even the real reform that was dropped from HCR to date can still be pursued through reconciliation, if the will emerges to do so.

I'm not playing bookie here and I'm not laying down odds, just saying there potentially is time to turn this ship wreck at least partially around, IF THERE IS THE WILL TO DO SO.

[LWolf]

91. That's the catch.

I don't think there was ever a will to move the nation in the right direction from Obama.

Or from too many corporatist Democrats in Congress.

[cascadiance]

70. About the only thing he can do now to recover is to push through public campaign financing

and perhaps instant runoff voting as well, and fire the DLC folks and other corporate crooks in his administration like Rahm, Summers, Geitner, etc. and say that now he's learned his lesson and he's going to start working for the people instead after learning that "playing the game" helps noone but the corporate elites. It might be already too late for that, unless this healthcare bill gets fixed somehow from what it is in the Senate currently.

[LWolf]

90. Add Duncan to the list of people to fire, and I'm there. nt

[Billsmile]

77. Full Spectrum Of The Democratic Party

Since Obama seems more & more to be a Clinton style corporate Democrat, it begs the question...

Does he really represent the voting members of the Democratic Party by being corporate?

What percentage of registered Dems want corporate rule in America?

My hunch is that corporate Dems are far outnumbered by progressive Dems.

Obama is representing a minority of Democrats & a minority of the American public by aligning his administration with corporate powers.

[cascadiance]

87. I think amongst informed democrats you are right...

I think a bigger majority are just living day to day and really don't know who's "corporate" and who's not, and do what they are told. That is what the corporate democrats count on with the added money they get from corporate interests to help them "tell" these democrats how to vote through the thoroughly corrupt M$M. I think were these people to become informed appropriately, I think they'd come to our side, but that's both an opportunity and a challenge today when the corporate interests control so much of the levers of power and the levers of information in our society. We need to find unique ways to break through those barriers.

[ima_sinnic]

83. I remember back in ~8/07 saying he was "a tool in the making"

I'd forgotten about this, but it suddenly came to mind the other day--a bunch of us talking about the Democratic candidates--someone asked me what I thought of Obama and I said I thought he was "a tool in the making." I thought then that he gave a good speech, but he seemed awfully "establishment." Despite that misgiving, I was very enthusiastic about Obama when it came down to Hillary vs Obama (I clung to Kucinich for a while then had to get realistic), and I talked him up to skeptical voters--a lot, figuring he'd have to be a good antidote to Bush.

But I saw through his act quite a while ago, and giving him the benefit of the doubt so far has yielded nothing but disappointment. The way he laughed off legalization of marijuana within the first few days, like it was a joke he wouldn't even consider, after that was the top-rated issue among his base (I assume, as that was who was so involved in giving him feedback and ideas) according to his own survey--well, that left a bad taste in my mouth. I felt he was condescending, rude, and a very ordinary thinker on the subject, and it's all been downhill from there.

So I no longer give him that benefit. If things change, I'll be pleasantly surprised, but I'm certainly not counting on it. He's indicated where his real loyalties lie and has treated the people who believed his BS about "change" like dirt.

[defendandprotect]

99. Everyone needs to turn their BS meters up much higher !!!

And we need to stick together --

this is an overwhelmingly liberal nation --

the proof of that is the lenths that the right wing has to go to get and keep control.

They can only rise on violence and stolen elections -- control of press/media.

Stick together and decide on a Plan B --

Capitalism, of course, is another tool of the right wing -- it's intended to move the

wealth and natural resources of a nation from the many to the few.

And it does that quite successfully -- class warfare.

[Generator]

89. Sorry he's just not that into us

Years after being hurt and ignored by my parents-try 25 Christmases alone-it just hit me by what he said-"you don't really have parents anymore." I don't think we have a party anymore.

[defendandprotect]

98. You're being told you are powerless in the face of corporatism/fascism . . .

what they fear most is that DEAN might have awakened voters/Democrats who are

ready for the truth --

What they also fear is the power of the powerless --

Stick together -- this is an overwhelmingly liberal nation --- and the proof of that

is that the right wing has to resort to assassinations, stolen elections and total control

of our free press and "news" agencies, TV/radio in order to keep right wing control going.

Stick together and work on Plan B --

We've known for 40 years that corporations were buying government and our candidates ---

how could we not know? Now's the time to decide to do something about it -- together!!

[SharksBreath]

101. We are not Republicans.

You can't hand us Shit and tell us it's lobster and think we are all going to repeat the BS word for word.

It ain't happening captain.

We are Democrats. We think for ourselves.