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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 04:41 PM
Original message
Quick summary for my political oppositions to this bill
If the bill passes, the provisions in it, as currently written will be so politically unpopular that it will guarantee that democrats will lose elections because of it. That being said, any argument that says it will be fixed in the future, to me means by the time it is "fixed" would be about the same time that democrats would have the majority to pass another bill. There will be no political reward for this bill. Since it was advertised as sweeping reform, any problem in Health Care, rather caused by the bill or not will be blamed on the democrats.

The lack of a public option has demotivated the base, the abortion provisions have demotivated the base, and giving Joe Lieberman veto power has demotivated the base.

We will lose seats regardless of the passage of this bill, and with the loss of seats we will have a disaster to live with, and no way to fix it.

I'd rather just not have the disaster and lose seats than to have the disaster and lose seats.

As far as the subsidy for poorer Americans, that is going to be the first thing cut, when we lose seats, and the budget is more influenced by the GOP.

I can't predict the future, I could be wrong, however that is what this bill looks like to me.
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'd like to add to your list.....
The states now have the right to set up rating systems for their insurance - the smoking measure was to lock in the 1.5 (tobacco lobbyists?) - any state can decide that fat people or high cholesterol people would have to pay 2 or 3 times more.

Older Americans but younger than 65 can be charged 3 times more than younger people - this is how the insurance companies get around the pre-existing conditions clause.

This is political suicide.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. The bill isn't perfect, but the bill isn't as bad as you would have hoped.
Edited on Sat Dec-19-09 06:03 PM by FrenchieCat
and in fact, although I've been accused of Fearmongering by no less than yourself,
I fear that your op is based on speculation and undocumented ones at that.

What’s In The Manager’s Amendment
By: David Dayen Saturday December 19, 2009 9:38 am

So I’m frantically trying to read the manager’s amendment (turn on CSPAN-2 and you can follow along yourself) and all the supplementary information that’s out there on just what’s now in this health care bill, and here’s what I’ve got so far:


• The CBO score is out. The top line numbers? The bill costs $871 billion and would save the federal government $132 billion over the next ten years. The changes in the manager’s amendment amounted to a net $2 billion dollar savings. The bill would cover 31 million people and leave 23 million uninsured by 2019.

• On the abortion issue: states could prohibit abortion coverage in the exchange if they passed a law. This basically punts the Stupak issue to the states, and if the exchanges expand over time as expected, essentially end abortion services coverage in states that pass a law. This becomes a huge culture war battle in states for years and years to come. Good for pro- and anti-abortion groups’ fundraising coffers, bad for women.

• The CLASS Act, the federally managed, voluntary long-term care program, is still in the bill. Lieberman may have mentioned it on Face The Nation, but he didn’t kill it.

• The public option is replaced with the OPM-managed multi-state plans in the exchanges. Not all of them have to be non-profits; in fact, only one of them has to be.

• The individual mandate penalty actually looks a little higher here, although it’s phased in over time. It would be the “greater of a flat dollar amount per person or a percentage of the individual’s income,” up to 2% by 2015.

• Apparently Nebraska and maybe a few other states get more money for Medicaid funding. I can’t get entirely worked up over a legislator securing more money for poor people in their own state. It beats kickback deals for local defense contractors of developers. I think Paul Wellstone would have done no less.

• Small business tax credits to purchase insurance have been expanded by $12 billion and phase in immediately, and are eligible to companies that pay higher wages. Every bill in Congress has to include small business tax credits, it’s the law.

• The medical loss ratio, which was floated to be at 90%, had to be dropped down because of a nakedly political act by the CBO, which said that a 90% MLR would have amounted to nationalizing the insurance industry. So the MLR is now 85/80%, but that apparently does not include the money insurers get through risk adjustment, which means that in practice it’s actually higher.

• They’ve banned pre-existing conditions for children immediately, starting in 2010.

• There are new insurance regulations, including the ability to ban insurance companies from the exchange if they raise their rates above a certain amount. And if an insurer denies a claim, there will be an independent board to which customers can appeal. The design of that board is crucial.

• The nationwide plans, which could have gutted state-level insurance regulations, have been dropped. This is a good thing.

• There are $1.25 billion in new resources for community health centers in the bill, totaling $10 billion overall (there’s $14 billion in the House bill). I’ve written about community health centers before, which could provide a base of low or no-cost primary coverage for all low-income Americans in communities throughout the country. I actually think this is the best thing in the bill. Bernie Sanders is actually talking about this now on CSPAN. He says that 10,000 more communities will have access to community health centers with this legislation.

• Increased debt forgiveness for medical students to work at community health centers.

• The “doctor’s fix” was removed (probably to improve the CBO score) and will be dealt with in separate legislation.

• There’s an increase to the payroll tax for high-income Americans to pay for the bill. Before the increase was 0.5% for individuals with income above $200,000 and for families with income above $250,000; now it’s 0.9%.

• They traded the Botax for a Boehner tax; there’s now a 10% excise tax on indoor tanning.


http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/12/19/whats-in-the-managers-amendment/
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yes they reduced the Medical loss ratio 10%
:rofl:

Idiots.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. It is currently at 65% in our status quo world. This means it has gone up by 15/20%!
Edited on Sat Dec-19-09 06:10 PM by FrenchieCat
Which means this bill is better than the status quo.
In otherwords, this bill is better than what we now have,
Although you are doing something that shouldn't be done; comparing negatively
this bill to what you would want to have, but that we can't get.
Laugh at that, cause it is an easy thing to do,
but none of your denial will make this bill worse than were we are at currently.....
and in fact, it certainly does help 30 million people,
and provides a foundation to build on which is currently non existent.

You want all or nothing.
I'll take what I can get and start to constructively work on making it better.

What this bill is represents progress....
what you are advocating is what the Right advocates; doing nothing.

That's why Sen. Sanders supports the bill, because even he knows that this bill
is way better than nothing.

You obviously don't understand that,
and it is for this reason that I pity you.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I pitty you
Edited on Sat Dec-19-09 06:13 PM by AllentownJake
Get any calls from Howard Dean today?

Or perhaps you need me to explain to you what OFA is, since you are such an ardent activist for the President in real life again.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Why do you lie? Howard Dean never called me.
Edited on Sat Dec-19-09 07:04 PM by FrenchieCat
Why are you making things up?

To detract from the facts that I have just laid on the table?

What's wrong with a little debate? Are you scared of that?
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Frenchie - we do not have mandates now so please do not try
and pass off this monstrosity as something better than we have now. We will be legally obligated to contribute to the profit of insurance companies because we have no other option.

This is in no way better than what we have now. This is going to be our party's downfall.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Obama said it was good
and therefore it must be good.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. No, we do not have mandates now. Instead, folks who aren't insured
get no treatment until it is too late, and we, as taxpayers, pay for that.

You'd rather folks not have clinics to go to (as is being provided in this bill)....
so that they can go a die in the County hospitals? You like that better?

How selfish are you?
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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Most of those uninsured folks will be provided insurance via mandate
they will refuse to buy crap insurance that they can't afford and be sent to jail. You want to see these people in prison?

How selfish are you?

Mandates to buy a private service is unconstitutional and I will join a class action suit to fight it. I am not saying there is not some good things in the bill. However, the bad overshadows the good.

Who will regulate the insurance industries? Right now and after the bill passes it will be up to the states. California has lost several fights over recission because they were out lawyered.

The bill still provides for insurance companies to rescind policies based on fraud - guess what - that's how they rescind policies now.

The abortion language put it way over the line for me. You are ok with women being forced to use coat hangers?
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. OMG!! Frenchie pities you..
Edited on Sat Dec-19-09 06:11 PM by bigwillq
how will you ever go on?!??!? :rofl:

"You obviously don't understand that,
and it is for this reason that I pity you."
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Oh she's been pittying me for a while
Funny thing is I had to tell her the other day there was an organization called Obama for America a year ago and it is now called Organizing for America.
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I stayed away from that thread.
Edited on Sat Dec-19-09 06:17 PM by bigwillq
Didn't care to offer any opinion. I could care less if they really called or didn't call. Not everything said on the internet is 100% the truth. Who am I to say that that didn't really happen? I don't know, either way, if it did or did not.
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. The fact she didn't know what OFA was
Edited on Sat Dec-19-09 06:19 PM by AllentownJake
or that Obama for America was the name of the primary and general election campaign fund, showed me more on how involved she was last year, than anything else.

Either that or she doesn't read anything when she donates including the check/credit card receipt in her banking statement.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I just went to the Obama website and donated.......
the law doesn't require me to have to know what the acronym of the website stood for.....and for me, it didn't matter, because I knew I was at the right place. So Obama for America was changed to Organizing for America, and I didn't pay close attention to this phenomenon. So sue me.

That's what's wrong; that the triffling trivial replaces what is important,
so that it can be used against me as though I have a personality flaw.
Good luck with believing that this is what counts in the larger scheme of things.
I simply call it anal!
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. She said "anal"
:rofl:
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Good that you concentrate so that you can comment on the big picture......
cause anything about me is worth commenting more than on the
issue I posted about.

I laugh at you then...cause you are obviously so lame,
that this is the most fun that you can have.
Sad.
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. There you go resorting to name calling again
I have my fun, believe me. I get a kick out of this place. How seriously everyone takes it, you included.

:rofl:
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