You can RENT solar panels!

[LiberalEsto]

Our church service today at Sugarloaf Unitarian Universalist was about Earth Day. The speaker was someone who works for the US Environmental Protection Agency's Energy Star program.

I was delighted to learn from the speaker that it's now possible to rent solar roof panels through a company called Citizenre. The rental program is called REnU.

Here is an article about them by Worldwatch: http://www.worldwatch.org/node/4828

and here is a link to the Citizenre web site: http://www.citizenre.com/web/index.php?p=home

and this is a link to their REnU solar rental program: http://renu.citizenre.com/index.php?c=1168291804

Happy Earth Day!

[pauldp]

1. Excellent news! Thanks. n/t

[Neecy]

2. wow

I just read through their site and this seems a very viable option. Thanks for posting this!

[LiberalEsto]

4. We're going to look into this

There is no way we could manage $10,000 or more to put up solar panels ourselves. But we have a perfect south-facing roof and it seems a shame not to make the most of all that lovely sunlight. This could be a viable option.

Besides, PEPCO, our electric company, just announced a 5.8% rate hike, after increasing rates hugely last summer following the expiration of rate caps.

[Neecy]

5. that's the beauty of it

It's probably not economically viable - at this stage - to outfit your home yourself for solar. What I like about this is that you're leasing the equipment, they do the installation and wiring, and all of a sudden it makes economic sense for the average homeowner. Plus the fact that they lock in your rate for the term of the contract seems like a real win-win situation. This is really a brilliant idea.

[Mnemosyne]

3. needs a kick. n/t

[dweller]

6. read the fine print

just saying.

dp

[BrotherBuzz]

7. I did....half price after sunset...

:hide:

[dweller]

9. and free during a solar eclipse! act now!

:eyes:

dp

[Fridays Child]

8. Good information.

Bookmarking. :thumbsup:

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

10. Signed with these guys some time ago

It looked interesing.

http://www.powur.com/gosolarva

[FogerRox]

11. Probably costs more in the long run

Companies like that tend to prey on folks whose houses can generate 100%+ of their usage. So if your house can generate 130%. 30% gets sold back to the Utility. Money from the sale of electricity goes to the owner of the PV panels. The life of the install is 30 years. You do the math.

Or, if you have a good state program (you get back 50% to 60%), you spend the 30k to have the PV's installed, you generate 130%, watch the meter run backwards, make money, the PV syatem pays for itself in 10 years.... the next 20 years are scott free.

I know a guy, here in NJ, who makes about $1100 per year off his PV install. If we (NJ) get a 5 or 6 % rate hike, he shortens the payback time by nearly a year.

[Maraya1969]

12. How can you lose money when you completely remove your payments to

the local electricity company and only pay this company at a lower rate?

Plus they put your $500 deposit in an interest bearing account.

And why should I care if I generate an extra 30% that is sold back? I still get my lower bill. And they say that if you get another person to rent you get an extra 5% off your bill for your entire contract and I think that is cumulative for every person you get to sign up.

PLUS it is just a good thing to do especially if you cannot afford to buy the panels.

[LiberalEsto]

13. And you lower your carbon "footprint"

As you lower your household's total carbon emissions (from coal or gas-burning electric generating plants), you help reduce greenhouse gases and slow down global climate change.

Also, by lowering your demand on your local electric utility company, you reduce their need to build additional generating plants including nuclear generating plants. That's a huge plus in my estimation.

Here are some rough calculations from REnU's web site on what I could be saving per month:

Savings Forecast -------Today's Rate --Year-5 Rate --Year-25 Rate

Citizenre REnU --------9.9 cents ----- 9.9 cents-----9.9 cents
Your Elec.Provider------9.9 cents ----- 10.8 --------16.3 cents
Total Savings--------------------------$265.07------ $9198.99

"If you were to invest all of the money that you saved over the term of a 25-year contract, and you received the investment grade bond yield average of 9.44%, then your decision to participate in the REnU Program would yield $20,506.49 by the end of your contract.

Additionally, over that same time period, your REnU will eliminate 214 tons of CO2, 1095 lbs of NOx, 3147 lbs of SO2, 137 lbs of PM, 7 lbs of VOC, and 48 lbs of CO. That is equivalent to taking approximately, 37 automobiles off of the road, or planting 629 trees." -- from the REnU solar power calculator

[FogerRox]

14. if you talk to

a company that doesnt do this leasing you will get the other side of the story.



"PLUS it is just a good thing to do especially if you cannot afford to buy the panels."

WHo told you ? A salesman, Whats his commission ..... did you get a second opinion?


A good friend of mine is a consultant. his job is to find a way to make solar panels affordable, IF your house can generate 130%.. over 30 years that can put $20,000 in your pocket. SO you go to a bank, and tell the bank you need $30,000 for solar panels. These panels will generate $30,000 (in 2007 dollars) of cash flow over 30 years. Have the figures on the federal & state rebate programs available for the bank. Tell the bank about the lease deal, and tell them you want a better offer.

Anyone that has $30,000 of cash flow to work with will be listened to.

[FogerRox]

15. Do you like the idea of the Electric company payin you

$1,000 or more a year ?


For as long as you own that house.....

Here in NJ we are about to get a 5% rate hike.

SO that $1,000, just became $1,050, its very likely in 30 years the Electric company will be payin you each year....$2,000+ for your electricity.

[gilpo]

30. Most states only require the utility company to pay back at wholesale rates

There is a bill forthcoming in the Senate, but right now, only count on getting wholesale back.

The nice thing about these lease systems is that you lock your utility rate in for the term of the deal, it won't take long before the wholesale rate is higher than your locked in rate.

[Xithras]

19. CitizenRe saves money for those with no liquid cash.

It's not a bad thing if they make money from your excess generation and stay in business. Compared to utility power, the CitizenRe option will save many thousands of dollars in electric bills over the lifetime of the panels, it increases the value of their homes, and it dramatically reduces the carbon footprint of the homeowners. Most people don't have $30,000, $15,000, or even $5,000 to drop on solar panels for their homes, so purchasing a system isn't an option. CitizenRe offers those people a way to go solar, to help the Earth, AND to save quite a bit of money over the next few decades.

[FogerRox]

25. so purchasing a system isn't an option.

I would suggest exploring the options before you make that statement.

[Xithras]

28. Sure...I guess you could take on gobs of debt.

Finding a bank willing to finance tens of thousands of dollars with little or no collateral, and taking on gobs of debt to install panels is always an option, but it's not a very good thing. Most of us try to avoid debt whenever possible.

[Pacifist Patriot]

16. A woman at my church (also UU) was telling me about them last week..

She is apparently doing some marketing work for them. She is supposed to get more information to me soon. It sounds wonderful. I think they are supposed to be in production by Spring 2008.

[Pacifist Patriot]

17. Whoops! Dup deleted.

[Xithras]

18. I've been on their waiting list for months.

CitizenRe is a legit company, and their product does make sense and will save both money and the environment. The problem is that it can take YEARS to get their system installed. I signed up almost five months ago, and am still waiting to have my house analyzed for compatibility with their system. A friend who turned me on to them two months before that is ALSO still waiting.

A couple things to be aware of:

1) You are responsible for the panels. If the kid next door lobs a baseball through your panel, CitizenRe will not replace it unless you buy the old one. Many homeowners insurance policies won't cover exposed panels, so you may end up having to sue your neighbor or eat the cost (thousands of dollars).

2) You will not be able to re-roof your house with the CitizenRe panels mounted. You will need to have them come out, remove the panels, and then have their contractor re-install the panels when the roof work is done. The process will add a couple thousand to your roofing job.

3) You will need to clean the panels now and then. They won't do it for you. And they ONLY mount them on the roof.

4) You don't get to decide how many panels you get. They evaluate your electrical needs based on your past years worth of usage and install the number of panels that makes financial sense for them. If you trade in your gas water heater for an electric model, there's no guarantee they'll add panels to your house to accommodate the increased electrical demand (and even if they do agree to do so, it may be a year or more before they're actually installed).

5) All sites get inspected for compatibility before anything gets installed. They require a large, south facing roof line with NO SHADE TREES. I didn't find out about the tree part until after I signed up, but I've already been told that I'll be turned down for panels unless I cut the tree down. Since doing so would INCREASE my household power usage, I'll pass on the panels if they actually ask me to do that.

Remember, CitizenRe is a power company, and they bill you for power at the same rate as your current electric company. You save money simply because your rate is locked and your billing rate will remain flat as your neighbors go up over time. CitizenRe ONLY makes money when your panels are generating a significant offset to your normal utility power, so they only install panels in locations that are likely to do so.

Still, it's not a bad deal if you can get it. It WILL save people money over the long run, and it's certainly beneficial to the environment.


** On edit, I forgot one:

6) You will get two electric bills every month. If the panels don't cover your full electrical usage, you will receive a bill from your local utility to cover the power you pulled from the grid. You will also receive a bill from CitizenRe for the power generated by your solar panels. Also, be aware that many cities apply fees and municipal charges to electric bills for simply being on the grid. Even if your completely off-grid for a month, you will probably still receive a bill from your electric company for these municipal charges and taxes...on top of your CitizenRe bill.

[LiberalEsto]

24. Thanks for the caveats

These are important issues to consider.

[FogerRox]

27. Will they install a system that generates more electricity than you consume?

Thanks for this good post.

[Xithras]

29. Sort of.

They don't want to turn your house into a generation station, so that's not their goal. According to the materials they sent me, the idea is that enough panels will be installed to cover your average electrical usage during daytime periods when you're home, with enough excess generated during the daytime to spin your meter backwards and offset your nighttime usage. If your nighttime usage falls or you go on vacation and reduce electrical usage during the day, the system will generate excess power which goes back into the grid permanently. You, not CitizenRe, get the credit for that power sellback. It's not free money, however, since CitizenRe is going to bill you for that power themselves...your power refund check will go straight to them at first. The situation does become better down the line, however. All users start off with a CitizenRe rate equal to the current power bill from their utility, and that rate is locked for 30 years. If your local utility rates rise 15% over the next decade, you will see a 15% monthly energy savings over your utility-bound neighbors. If you overgenerate at THAT point, your utility is going to credit you at the 15% higher rate, while CitizenRe bills you at the lower original rate, leaving money in your pocket. As time and inflation drive utility prices higher, this profit will only increase.

CitizenRe's business model is to take over the responsibility of generating power for YOUR home. They're not actively trying to pump power back into the grid. That's why they analyze your power bills before installing anything, and then chart your power usage in real-time. They only put enough panels on your home to power your house.

Which brings up another point. If you use X amount of power now, and reduce that power draw by 20% with efficient appliances and low power bulbs 5 years from now, CitizenRe has the right to come out and remove one or more panels without your permission if you are consistently generating more power than you're using. They don't make consistent money from excess power generation, so they only want your house generating enough power to offset your own use. Keep in mind, however, that they'll ONLY do this if the cost to them to maintain the panels is greater than the cost to pay a contractor to come and remove them. If you household of eight people and four televisions becomes a household of two people when the kids move out, you'll probably lose a panel or two. If your house installs flourescents and reduces your power usage by 5% or so, they aren't going to bother.

[FogerRox]

31. Thanks, thats called 100%, think of it as being based an a years usage

Companies like this make me puke.

IMHO opinion any house that can generate 130%, 140% + should. Decentralizing power generation has many advantages. The US gets 0.01% of its power from solar, that has to change, companies like this dont get it. The best way to get to 10% solar, is to install as much capacity as you can, based on location. If your location (house) can generate 8kwh, that makes up for your neighbor who's house is partially tree shaded.

TO me this is akin to predatory lending practices.

But the times are a changing.

[Xithras]

32. Yeah, I don't understand why they don't do that.

In theory, they'd make more money that way. If a house can generate 8kwh but only uses 5kwh, you'd think that CitizenRe would just put the panels up there for 8 and bill the homeowner for the full amount generated. Since the homeowner would be refunded for the excess 3kwh by their power company anyway, there wouldn't be any financial hit to the homeowner.

I believe they're just trying to keep it simple. CitizenRe doesn't bill for the amount generated, only the amount used, and calculating billing for overgeneration just complicates things.

And it's important to also remember what their goal is. They're not trying to save you money, or to take over the electrical grid. They're trying to help their customers live green, without any expense or time invested. That is a laudable goal, and one their model promises to do well. Is it perfect? No, but if it works the way their business plan speculates, they (and other companies following their model) will probably put more solar panels on homes than all previous attempts combined. Most people have better things to do with their money than buy solar panels. CitizenRe lets you go solar without any expense.

It's not any more predatory that buying a cellphone on a plan. Can you save money by spending $500-$600 on a cellphone and taking a month to month contract? Sure, eventually, if you have the money to spend. A free phone with a two year contract may cost more over the long run, but it's a model that people can afford. You may want to think back and recall that cell phones didn't really take off until mobile providers started subsidizing phones the same way. Before that, they were the domain of business, the rich, and cutting edge technophiles. Sound familiar?

The model works, and it's worked on other things in the past. If it lessens our dependence on fossil fuels, I'm not going to whine because it isn't as profitable for homeowners in the long run. If you HAVE the money, buy the things. If you don't, this is a great option.

[K8-EEE]

20. I'm confused why there are "no associates" in SoCA??

Ed Begley Jr. is the spokesman on the one link -- he lives 2 miles from me, but when I use any local zipcode I get "no associates in the area" message....?

I would love to look into this!

[K8-EEE]

21. Oh wait, I see....

City of L.A. doesn't have the right kind of metering to do this? BUMMER!! I couple of miles from me in Burbank, I would be able to do it...:o(

Love the concept!

[LiberalEsto]

23. Maybe you don't have net metering?

Somewhere on the REnU website they mention that there are 9 states that don't allow net metering, so they don't do business there.

[FogerRox]

26. That is an issue

[Rosa Luxemburg]

22. bookmarked thanks!

[ThomWV]

33. So never having a payoff they can never pay for themselves ...

Buy the dam things if you want to save money.