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Che Guevara: The Revolutionary that led an uprising of the poor and brought "CHANGE".

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Union Yes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 01:20 AM
Original message
Che Guevara: The Revolutionary that led an uprising of the poor and brought "CHANGE".
DeRAY-GUNize and unpropagandize with me for a moment.

First, a point we all need to realize..

A revolutionary uprising of the serf class and poor to overthrow a brutally Fascist, right wing, wealthy Batista regime/dictatorship could not have been pulled off blood free.

Ernesto "Che" Guevara was a physician, author, intellectual, guerrilla leader, military theorist, and an Argentine Marxist revolutionary.

Regarding the brutal and bloody overthrow of the brutal Batista regime..

Che DID NOT ACT ALONE!

Che led a populist uprising of the people against the brutally Fascist Batista regime. Batista ruled Cuba with an iron fist. In the years leading up to the Cuban Revolution, Batista saw worker uprisings, mass protests against a collapsing economy, and protests against the aristocracy of Cuba, the Batista regime.

Batista had the aristocracy of Cuba in his pocket. The regime relied on a nation of low paid serf labor to fund and fuel the tyranny of the aristocracy. Living under the oppressive force of a dictator, the people rose up.

Protests, union activism, populism- the people couldn't take it no more, the state of serfdom, and they began to rise up.

Batista despised this populist uprising and began a brutal campaign of kidnapping and execution of labor activists, student activists, union leaders, dissenters, protesters etc. That campaign only fueled the uprising by creating more populist outrage. Batista stepped up his brutality by ordering his Army to arrest and kidnap the families of activists and known political dissenters. Meant to strike terror into the hearts of the poor and quell any uprising. Those many families disappeared, forever.

Che Guevara rallied the people. He gathered an Army of the people. Che marched them in a series of bloody battles right into the heart of Havana and seized control of the Cuban government. Batista had already fled Cuba after seeing his dictatorship collapse. Along with him he took his $300 million personal fortune and as much as $700 million in fine art and cash from the Cuban treasury. Batista eventually ended up in Portugal, the only nation that would accept him.

Che and his top general, Fidel Castro ordered the round up and arrest of the Cuban aristocracy and the remaining officials of the fractured Batista regime.

After a series of trials condemning them to death, Che oversaw and carried out the executions of much of the Cuban aristocracy and former Batista officials. He executed the same people who were partially responsible for kidnapping and execution of dissenters, protesters, and revolutionaries.

In other debates on DU regarding Che, I've seen DU'ers call Che a murderer and sociopath. We could level that same accusation at every sitting US president for the past 100 years.

RAY-GUN propaganda teaches us that it's A-OK to commit mass murder in the name of advancing capitalism. But if a Commie like Che sheds blood leading a revolution of the people, he's a tyrant.

Ray-GUN propaganda wants your soul, your serfhood, your obedience. Don't buy the lie.

DeRay-Gunize.
Independent thought unpropagandizes and unfucks the brain. Since we learned how to walk, we've been force fed a capitalist lie. Propagandized and swayed by tyrants like Atomic Ronny Ray-Gun and the American Aristocracy.

Modern day Cuba is Fidel and Raul Castro's Cuba. Not Che's Cuba. Che was captured and executed in 1967.


Communist Cuba has survived 5 decades of a full American trade embargo. But, us 'Murikans can still thump our chests. Our system of Chinese made and imported asswipe is better than the Cuban asswipe shortage. But why do we need lead in our asswipe anyway? Helps it sink down the 'terlet' hole better?

Communist Cuba has had universal health care for all of it's citizens longer than half of of all DU'ers have been alive.

Che put his ass and his life on the line leading a revolution of the people.

Ask yourself..

Has a capitalist ever put his ass or life on the line for the people?



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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. Che rode in on Castro's coattails and never did another successful thing in his life after that.
Just a series of failed, pathetic attempts at "revolution" frequently thwarted by his own foolish actions.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
43. Che got murdered by BFEE button Felix Rodriguez.
Bay of Pigs. Operation PHOENIX. Che's Rolex. Iran-Contra. Drugs Inc. War Inc.



Good friend of Poppy's.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #43
53. After Castro cut him loose.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
2. Up to a point, Franklin Roosevelt did
though he also saved capitalism by regulating it. He should have let it die.
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Union Yes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Agree 100%. nt
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
4. Che was a psychopath.. a Stalinist. it's all myth he was a freedom fighter,
http://flag.blackened.net/af/org/issue47/che.html
Che may look like the archetypal romantic revolutionary. In reality he was a tool of the Stalinist power blocs and a partisan of nuclear war. His attitudes and actions reveal him to be no friend of the working masses, whether they be workers or peasants.

http://savecivilization.org/?p=193
Che sidelined black Cubans and mocked those who were part of the revolutionary movement. He once told radio host Luis Pons, “We’re going to do for blacks exactly what blacks did for the revolution. By which I mean: nothing.”

- Che personally ordered 700 executions by firing squad, which he supervised at his jungle headquarters in Cuba. He also hosted book burnings, torching thousands of books owned by suspect intellectuals and librarians.

–Che enjoyed viewing executions and had a special window constructed in his study so he could watch men and women being shot to death. What a hero!

He’s the ultimate symbol of radical chic but Che Guevara was really a homophobic, racist square who personally ordered the jailing and executions of innocent men, women and children?

According to Humberto Fontova, the author of “Exposing the Real Che Guevara and the Useful Idiots Who Idolize Him,” Guevara probably would have imprisoned or punished most of his celebrity fans, from Johnny Depp to Angelina Jolie.
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Union Yes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I wonder if you would have felt that way..
had you lived under the brutally oppressive Batista regime during the uprising? When police/military squads opened fire repeatedly on protesters.

Had it been your family kidnappped forever by the Batistas, would you still feel the same way?
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Mudoria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. I wonder if you would feel that way
if Guevara had personally put the gun to one of your loved ones head and pulled the trigger? Which he liked to do btw. Just another thug..
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
38. one psychopath or the other.. Che murdered murdered peasants was a coward. sick bastard
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Good post, but this OP cherishes his "hero" mass murderers - as long as they were communists.
Over and over, I've posted links to facts about, for instance, Vladimir Lenin's atrocities. I shall do so again below.

But over and over and over again, the OP has snarled, fought, and insisted the Lenin was just a misunderstood saint, and that all those people he killed were part of the "necessary" bloodshed of the "Revolution." It's really disgusting, vile, stuff the OP regularly spews. Which makes me wonder if the OP is *really* the admirer of such scum as he claims, or has another motive for posting such things on DU...things related to helping out the *opposite* end of that spectrum....



"Lenin instructed: "It is necessary - secretly and urgently to prepare the terror" <10> Even before the assassinations, Lenin was sending telegrams "to introduce mass terror" in Nizhny Novgorod in response to a suspected civilian uprising there, and "crush" landowners in Penza who protested, sometimes violently, to requisition of their grain by military detachments:<2>
"Comrades!... You must make example of these people. (1) Hang (I mean hang publicly, so that people see it) at least 100 kulaks, rich bastards, and known bloodsuckers. (2) Publish their names. (3) Seize all their grain. (4) Single out the hostages per my instructions in yesterday's telegram."
Five hundred "representatives of overthrown classes" were executed immediately by the Bolshevik communist government after the assassination of Uritsky <3>. The first official announcement of Red Terror, published in Izvestiya, "Appeal to the Working Class" on September 3, 1918 called for the workers to "crush the hydra of counterrevolution with massive terror! ... anyone who dares to spread the slightest rumor against the Soviet regime will be arrested immediately and sent to concentration camp" <2> . This was followed by the decree "On Red Terror", issued September 5, 1918 by the Cheka. On 15 October, checkist Gleb Bokiy, summing up the officially ended Red Terror, reported that in Petrograd 800 alleged enemies had been shot and another 6,229 imprisoned.<10> Casualties in the first two months were between 10,000 and 15,000 based on lists of summarily executed people published in newspaper "Cheka Weekly" and other official press.
As the civil war progressed, significant numbers of prisoners, suspects and hostages were executed on the basis of their belonging to the "possessing classes" and such numbers are recorded in cities occupied by the Bolsheviks:
In Kharkiv there were between 2,000 and 3,000 executions in February-June 1919, and another 1,000-2,000 when the town was taken again in December of that year; in Rostov-on-Don, approximately 1,000 in January 1920; in Odessa, 2,200 in May-August 1919, then 1,500-3,000 between February 1920 and February 1921; in Kyiv, at least 3,000 in February-August 1919; in Ekaterinodar, at least 3,000 between August 1920 and February 1921; In Armavir, a small town in Kuban, between 2,000 and 3,000 in August-October 1920. The list could go on and on.<11>
In the Crimea, Bela Kun, with Lenin's approval,<12> had 50,000 White prisoners of war and civilians summarily executed via shooting or hanging after the defeat of general Pyotr Nikolayevich Wrangel at the end of 1920. They had been promised amnesty if they would surrender, and were then murdered.<13> This is considered one of the largest massacres in the Civil War.<14>
On 16 March 1919, all military detachments of the Cheka were combined in a single body, the Troops for the Internal Defense of the Republic which numbered 200,000 in 1921. These troops policed labor camps, ran the Gulag system, conducted requisitions of food, put down peasant rebellions, riots by workers, and mutinies in the Red Army, which was plagued by desertions <2>
One of the main organizers of the Red Terror for the Bolshevik government was 2nd Grade Army Commissar Yan Karlovich Berzin (1889-1938), whose real name was Kyuzis Peteris. He took part in the October Revolution and afterwards worked in the central apparatus of the Cheka.<4> During the Red Terror, Berzin initiated the system of taking and shooting hostages<4> to stop desertions and other "acts of disloyalty and sabotage". Chief of a special department of the Latvian Red Army (later the 15th Army), Berzin played a part in the suppression of the Russian sailors' mutiny at Kronstadt in March 1921.<4> He particularly distinguished himself in the course of the pursuit, capture, and killing of captured sailors.<4>
Repressions
Peasants
The Internal Troops of Cheka and the Red Army practiced the terror tactics of taking and executing numerous hostages, often in connection with desertions of forcefully mobilized peasants. It is believed that more than 3 million deserters escaped from the Red Army in 1919 and 1920. Around 500,000 deserters were arrested in 1919 and close to 800,000 in 1920 by Cheka troops and special divisions created to combat desertions.<2> Thousands of deserters were killed, and their families were often taken hostage. According to Lenin's instructions,
"After the expiration of the seven-day deadline for deserters to turn themselves in, punishment must be increased for these incorrigible traitors to the cause of the people. Families and anyone found to be assisting them in any way whatsoever are to be considered as hostages and treated accordingly."<2>
In September 1918, in only twelve provinces of Russia, 48,735 deserters and 7,325 bandits were arrested, 1,826 were killed and 2,230 were executed. A typical report from a Cheka department stated:
"Yaroslavl Province, 23 June 1919. The uprising of deserters in the Petropavlovskaya volost has been put down. The families of the deserters have been taken as hostages. When we started to shoot one person from each family, the Greens began to come out of the woods and surrender. Thirty-four deserters were shot as an example".<2>
During the suppression of the Tambov Rebellion, estimates suggest that around 100,000 peasant rebels and their families were imprisoned or deported and perhaps 15,000 executed.<15>
This campaign marked the beginning of the Gulag, and some scholars have estimated that 70,000 were imprisoned by September, 1921. Conditions in these camps led to high mortality rates, and there were "repeated massacres." The Cheka at the Kholmogory camp adopted the practice of drowning bound prisoners in the nearby Dvina river.<16> Occasionally, entire prisons were “emptied” of inmates via mass shootings prior to abandoning a town to White forces.<17><18>
Industrial workers
On 16 March 1919, Cheka stormed the Putilov factory. More than 900 workers who went to a strike were arrested. More than 200 of them were executed without trial during the next few days. Numerous strikes took place in the spring of 1919 in cities of Tula, Orel, Tver, Ivanovo, and Astrakhan. The starving workers sought to obtain food rations matching those of Red Army soldiers. They also demanded the elimination of privileges for Communists, freedom of press, and free elections. All strikes were mercilessly suppressed by Cheka using arrests and executions.<19>
In the city of Astrakhan, the strikers and Red Army soldiers who joined them were loaded onto barges and then thrown by the hundreds into the Volga with stones around their necks. Between 2,000 and 4,000 were shot or drowned from 12 to 14 of March 1919. In addition, the repression also claimed the lives of some 600 to 1,000 bourgeoisie. Recently published archival documents indicate this was the largest massacre of workers by the Bolsheviks before the suppression of the Kronstadt rebellion.<20>
However, strikes continued. Lenin was concerned about the tense situation regarding workers in the Ural region. On 29 January 1920, he sent a telegram to Vladimir Smirnov stating "I am surprised that you are taking the matter so lightly, and are not immediately executing large numbers of strikers for the crime of sabotage."<21> On 6 June 1920, female workers in Tula who refused to work on Sunday were arrested and sent to labor camps. The refusal to work during the weekend was claimed to be a "counter-revolutionary conspiracy formented by Polish spies". The strikes were eventually stopped after a series of arrests, executions, and the taking of hostages.
Atrocities

At these times, there were numerous reports that Cheka interrogators employed tortures of "scarcely believable barbarity."<22> At Odessa the Cheka tied White officers to planks and slowly fed them into furnaces or tanks of boiling water; In Kharkov, scalpings and hand-flayings were commonplace: the skin was peeled off victims' hands to produce "gloves"; The Voronezh Cheka rolled naked people around in barrels studded internally with nails; victims were crucified or stoned to death at Ekaterinoslav; the Cheka at Kremenchug impaled members of the clergy and buried alive rebelling peasants; in Orel, water was poured on naked prisoners bound in the winter streets until they became living ice statues.<23> "In Kiev, cages of rats were fixed to prisoners' bodies and heated until the rats gnawed their way into the victims' intestines."<22>
Executions took place in prison cellars or courtyards, or occasionally on the outskirts of town, during the Red Terror and Russian civil war. After the condemned were stripped of their clothing and other belongings, which were shared among the Cheka executioners, they were either machine-gunned in batches or dispatched individually with a revolver. Those killed in prison were usually shot in the back of the neck as they entered the execution cellar, which became littered with corpses and soaked with blood. Victims killed outside the town were conveyed by lorry, bound and gagged, to their place of execution, where they sometimes were made to dig their own graves.<24>
According to Edvard Radzinsky, "it became a common practice to take a husband hostage and wait for his wife to come and purchase his life with her body".<3> The Pyatigorsk Cheka organized a "day of Red Terror" to execute 300 people in one day. They ordered local Communist Party organizations to draw up execution lists. According to one of the chekists, "this rather unsatisfactory method led to a great deal of private settling of old scores... In Kislovodsk, for lack of a better idea, it was decided to kill people who were in the hospital".<2>
Members of the clergy were subjected to particularly brutal abuse. According to documents cited by the late Alexander Yakovlev, then head of the Presidential Committee for the Rehabilitation of Victims of Political Repression, priests, monks and nuns were crucified, thrown into cauldrons of boiling tar, scalped, strangled, given Communion with melted lead and drowned in holes in the ice.<25> An estimated 3,000 were put to death in 1918 alone."<25>


Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. Interesting theory. I hope you've discovered where your alert button is.
The mods are pretty good at sorting these things out eventually, but they do have to be notified, sometimes repeatedly, in order to see a pattern emerge instead of just isolated instances.

This is the first time I've read something like this from this poster, so I'm just sayin.'

Hekate
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rollingrock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. Senator Joe McCarthy called
He wants his 1950s propaganda reel back. lol.

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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
29. Well! Wikipedia is an excellent source on the Russian Revolution! Nice TOTAL PROPAGANDA
Kind of like reading pro-Nazi explanations of WWII:

The Allies burned children at the stake! Dropped bombs on their houses! Then raped their corpses!

This is a compendium of right wing nonsense and propaganda.



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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. [citation needed]? {{disputed}} ?
Are you talking about conservapedia, or uncyclopedia, where total garbage can go unchallenged? In wikipedia, all sides of the spectrum can (and should be) included, provided they meet WP:RS and aren't WP:UNDUE... if a topic is a compendium of right wing nonsense and propaganda, that's because there isn't an opposing view on a topic (very rare), or the opposing view is shared by so few people that they aren't bothering to learn how to use citations to contribute and bolster NPOV...
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DrCory Donating Member (862 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-24-09 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
63. To flush out an alleged troll, you'll align with Robert Conquest?
How very "progressive" of you professor :eyes:
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Wrong, wrong, wrong!
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rollingrock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
7. Reminds of a movie I was planning to see
Edited on Sun Dec-20-09 02:25 AM by rollingrock
about Che Guevara. from what I've heard, looks to be an outstanding and fair portrayal of Che Guevara and his exploits as a revolutionary. Benicio Del Toro is always pretty good so it should be excellent.

btw, has anyone seen this film and could comment on it?


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Union Yes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. I'll be renting it very soon.
Nice pic. Thanks for adding.

:hi:
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. The reviews I read said it was played pretty straight, but somewhat glossed over.
My favorite review column:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2009/feb/18/che-part-two-reel-history

They actually criticize about historical accuracy, often with great wit. Great column for history buffs.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. I dowloaded the torrent months back and watched it. it was
good but LONG. it's in two parts and between 4 to 5 hours long if i remember correctly. some may find it slow and plodding but i was interested in the story so i liked it.
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rollingrock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. Sounds good thanks
I got in my Netflix queue.
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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
8. As a side note ...

One of my co-workers is related to Che. She was born long after he was dead, but I found it interesting that someone her age (she's 20) knew so much (reality) about him. The fact she's related explained that a bit.

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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
10. You have a computer and Internet access. Possibly a car, too. Maybe some education.
Therefore, you are Che's enemy.

He did not like the social aristocracy, the wealthy and middle class, the people who made a living with their minds, rather than their hands. He considered people like those on DU to be exploiters, and worthy of death, in order to help out the poor.

This is what wealthy armchair revolutionaries seem to forget, in their scramble to find justice, they forget that folks like Che, Castro, Chavez, etc. would rather kill you and give your computer to the poor than let intellectuals and the educated debate them in any way. Pretty much anybody who knows what the word "bourgeois" means would be considered a target, for being excessively wealthy and over-educated.

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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Don't confuse him with the facts.
He'd rather believe that Che was a "hero".
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. It's a common problem.
The middle class folks who think they're "poor", because they don't have the latest LCD 50 inch TV, support massive social change, without realizing that said change extends to them losing their possessions, land, and other assets.



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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. It's a common problem for 18 year old college students.
Adults should know better.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #25
61. LOL, I was one of those kind of people in high school.
Then I snapped out of it when I was about 19, especially after I read some stuff by the late political philosopher Karl Popper, the famous critic of totalitarian ideologies.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
13. Che was a Stalinist monster. Fuck him.
He got the dirty death he deserved in Bolivia.

"Has a capitalist ever put his ass or life on the line for the people?"

Yeah, plenty. Crack a history book.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
20. You have it all wrong...he did all those terrible things so he could sell t-shirts and posters
His estate must be making millions off of those and the movie rights :sarcasm:

Seriously, he was a bloodthirsty mini tyrant. How much he helped or hurt in the long run will be debatable forever. A clue is that clearly Castro sent him out knowing full well he would be caught and killed, a dead martyr being much easier to deal with than the alive Che
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Che was a doctor, he was also one of the bloodiest pschopaths to ...
ever breathe.

Thrown out and kept out of Argentina, made a fool of in the Congo,and finally the death in disgrace that he so richly deserved.

Pure and simple: Che was a murderer.
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rollingrock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Funny, Nelson Mandela doesn't seem to think so
"Che's life is an inspiration for every human being who loves freedom. We will always honor his memory."
~ Nelson Mandela

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Che_Guevara
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. No one gets it right a 100% of the time.
Perhaps Mandela bought into that thug's myth.
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rollingrock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Batista is the thug, not Guevara

Is that you, Senator McCarthy?


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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. So mass-murderers and dictators are fin as long as they are "left"?
Naive much?
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rollingrock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. So why do you single out Guevara?
if that's the case? and give Batista a pass? just curious.

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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. I'm not giving Batista a pass and I'm singling out Guevara because he was the subject of the OP.
Batista was a thug who was replaced by another thug. (Castro)

Guevara was a Stalinist thug who had no problem putting people against the wall.

I don't understand why people have problem admitting this.
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rollingrock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. That's your opinion
the rest of the world outside the US sees thing much differently. Mandela credits Castro with playing a key role in helping his country end apartheid, for example. Castro is hailed all over Africa as a liberator who played a major role in the independence of several African countries.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tNF0YkRQjM

Castro Asks Mandela to Visit
Reuters
Published: March 2, 1990

HAVANA, March 1— President Fidel Castro today invited Nelson Mandela to visit Cuba, the Cuban news agency Prensa Latina reported. Mr. Mandela received the invitation from a senior Cuban diplomat in Lusaka, Zambia, where he has been holding talks with exiled leaders of the African National Congress. Prensa Latina said Mr. Mandela praised Cuba's support for national independence movements in Africa, including the struggle of the congress to end apartheid in South Africa.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/03/02/world/castro-asks-mandela-to-visit.html




Even our neighbors to he north have a very different view. The rest of the world doesn't share America's hysterical, rabid hatred of all things Cuba. Besides, having so much hate in your heart isn't good for the soul or your health for that matter.



Castro was known to be a friend of former Canadian Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau and was an honorary pall bearer at Trudeau's funeral in October 2000. They had continued their friendship after Trudeau left office until his death. Canada became one of the first American allies openly to trade with Cuba. Cuba still has a good relationship with Canada. In 1998, Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien arrived in Cuba to meet President Castro and highlight their close ties. He is the first Canadian government leader to visit the island since Pierre Trudeau was in Havana in 1976.<107>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro





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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Such a lovely fellow.
All opposition purged. Why jail all those activists in 2003?

All media controlled.

Prisons chock full.

Supporting Soviet wars across the globe. They weren't supporting Independence movements, they were Russia's orders.

The country is always conveniently ruled by a Castro.

Tell me, why do people assemble homemade boats to flee this communist paradise?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Words have meaning.
Che in no way was a psychopath. Not even close. A study of the records of his life could suggest ADD, but nothing else on Axis 1 or 2.

People can have very different views of his politics, and even his tactics. Many of history's revolutionary leaders engaged in those violent conflicts known as war. That violence includes killing other human beings. Che's military experiences are best viewed in that context. More, his campaigns in Africa and South America need to be understood in the context of his relationship with Castro, rather than as ideas he came up with.

I'm not concerned if you or anyone else likes or dislikes him. But I think it is important to be accurate in comments about well-documented history, and to use words correctly.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
24. Che was a muderous Stalinist thug.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
40. Cubans have free universal health care. We don't!
And our troops are getting killed and wounded so that the political elites make money out of war.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Cubans get thrown in jail for criticizing their government publically.
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Like Don Siegelman?
¿Rove, no?


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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #44
47. You are comparing Rove's BS to the repression in a totalitarian state?
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. Yes, as using the Department of Justice to persecute a politcal opponent is TREASON.
Totalitarian states like Cuba don't start illegal, immoral and unnecessary wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, either.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Stupid's Iraq BS is irrelevent to the discussion.
Edited on Mon Dec-21-09 12:36 AM by Odin2005
It seems like whenever things like human rights abuses in Cuba come up the apologists like to change the subject into "THE US IS EVIL!!!".
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. The only human rights abuses in Cuba take place at GITMO
We are the ones that torture and imprison people without charges. We are the ones that invade other countries for their oil.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. You are truely deluded if you really think that.
You sound like the people that defended Stalin until the USSR admitted his atrocities after his death.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #45
51. You're not serious are you?
Have you really drank that much red kool-aid?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #51
60. That's the poster that thinks WSWS is a legitimate news source.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
27. I prefer Lenin.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
28. Jimmy Hoffa was a good union leader who cared only about his members.
Some things are what they are. Some things are not.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
39. The French decapitated their royals
and we kicked the Tories out of the country.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #39
48. We didn't replace the Torries with a totalitarian single-party state.
Edited on Mon Dec-21-09 12:20 AM by Odin2005
The French Revolution eventually ate it's own after fanatical totalitarian radicals took control of it.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. Don't tell her that.
Historical truths for very unpleasant for communists.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #39
56. You're holding up the French Reign of Terror as something to be proud of?
Seriously?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. Totalitarian Marxists are very good at rationalizing atrocity.
Either by spouting ivory-tower sophistry about the "inherent violence of Capitalism"; by engaging in "you need to break an egg to make an omelet" ends-justify-the-means reasoning; or by trying to deflect by changing to subject to the US's bad history of supporting coups and rants about "The Empire", as of that somehow justifies atrocities.
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
41. Wow, what a bunch of garbage.
Edited on Sun Dec-20-09 10:38 PM by tritsofme
Che and Castro can stick it where the sun don't shine.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
54. I F Stone: "In a sense he was, like some early saint, taking refuge in the desert."
http://www.newstatesman.com/society/2007/09/che-revolutionary-american

The spirit of Che Guevara
I F Stone

Men become revolutionaries for diverse, often surprising and sometimes unworthy motives — rancour, dislike of themselves, greed for power, or a hatred of stupidity which easily becomes contempt for humanity itself, since stupidity is its most salient characteristic. In Che one felt a desire to heal, and pity for suffering. It was out of love, like the perfect knight of medieval romance, that he had set out to do combat with the powers of the world. This was Galahad, not Robespierre. The focus of his political concern was not Moscow but his America — from the Mexican sierra to the Argentine pampas, the America we forget when we ethno-centrically use the word in the US. Of our talk on that first visit I remember the vivid relic of a fragile hope soon dissipated. ‘We are going to be the Tito of the Caribbean,’ Che said of the Castro regime. ‘You get along with Tito and you will gradually reconcile yourself to getting along with us.’ But accommodation with a rebel from the Russian empire was quite different from accommodation with a rebel from the American empire. American policy soon demonstrated that Castro would have to be Krushchev’s protégé if he were to survive our animosity.

<edit>

I was not surprised when the news broke that Che had suddenly disappeared and it was said that he had set out on a wider mission. He was not made for a desk. He was a permanent revolutionary. Even Cuba may have become too sedate for his taste. In the early years of the Castro regime, when heretical communist and anti-communist works could still be seen in Havana’s book stores and there was still some faint hope of a peaceful settlement with the US, Latin exiles who had come to Cuba for support already began to complain that there was a palpable cooling off of revolutionary ardour. Like the Polish Jacobins come fruitlessly for aid to revolutionary Paris, they began to feel that the interests of the new state in the international order had begun to blur revolutionary fraternity. For the revolution, as for the church, the world is full of snares and pitfalls: the unavoidable minimum of intercourse with things-as-they-are, the need for trade to earn one’s bread, th necessity for some diplomatic relations, the lure of friendly hands in ideologically repugnant places (like Franco’s to Castro), and the logic of statecraft which demands weapons, technology, compromise and duplicity. With the assumption of temporal power, the Revolution, like the Church, enters into a state of sin. One can easily imagine how this slow erosion of pristine virtue must have troubled Che. He was not a Cuban and could not be satisfied with building freedom from Yanqui Imperialism in one Latin country only. He thought in continental terms. In a sense he was, like some early saint, taking refuge in the desert. Only there could the purity of the faith be safeguarded from the unregenerate revisionism of human nature.

Che will live with Bolivar and Juarez among the heroes of the Latin hemisphere. His little book on guerrilla war has become not only a bible for revolutionaries but the anti-bible of the Green Berets of Fort Bragg where John F. Kennedy initiated the training of Special Forces as the Janissaries of the counter-revolution. But few in my own country pay much attention to those sober reflections with which Che begins his practical and unrhetorical little handbook. He says that where there is some hope of peaceful change, even if only the simulacrum of democracy, the conditions are not yet ripe for successful guerrilla action. This is in perfect accord with the ideology of 1776, but everywhere, out of politically mindless military logic or anti-communist panic, we ourselves — as most recently in Greece — lay down the welcome mat for our adversaries.

I have always felt there was something anachronistic in Castro’s Cuba and in Che's mission to build a new and bigger Sierra Maestra in the Andes. The musical accompaniment of the Castro revolution was Chopin and the spirit of Garibaldi hung over it. It had all the naïve hopefulness and humanitarian faith of the 19th century. It had not heard of Hiroshima or of IBM’s new Sinai, the computer. The hard realities of the hemisphere are very different from the revolutionary clichés of Castroism. How to create new managerial and scientific cadres to replace the old oligarchies and American aid? How do you inspire and organise for hard work over many hungry years an illiterate mass quite different in its conditioning and past from, let us say, the immemorially productive people of China? For after the music of the revolution dies down, everybody still has to go to work.

There are riches at hand easily seized, but how do you cash in the swag? If you expropriate US oil in Venezuela, how do you sell it in a world where the cartel controls the tankers and the outlets, and the Soviet bloc has surpluses of its own to sell? If you expropriate US copper in Chile, how do you refine and sell it under US blockade or attack? How many Cubans can Moscow support in a style to which they would otherwise never hope to become accustomed? How do you persuade to the revolutionary course men of good will appalled by the harvest of hatred in our time — the crematoriums, the liquidation of the kulaks, Hiroshima and Nagasaki? These mass murders were committed under the influence of some vision that this was the way to the earthly paradise. How convince us that a New World can only be built after another outburst of bloodshed?

I recognise the Shelleyan purity of Che’s intentions. I mourn the prospect that he may be dead. I welcome the fact that new Che's will spring up to carry on his work - for without the fear of revolutionary challenges neither the Latin oligarchy nor Washington will make peaceful change possible. But I believe their success would be out of all proportion to the terrible cost, and I believe this romantic handful underestimates the power, flexibility and intelligence of the American colossus. Yet when I see the follies my beloved country cornmiss in Vietnam and elsewhere, the billions we spend on ‘defence’, while hate, misery and despair build up to volcanic proportions in our black slums, I wonder whether Che’s long-range estimates may not prove more realistic than mine. Lyndon Johnson may precipitate what Che Guevera alone could never accomplish.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. Disgusting.
:puke:
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
57. "Che DID NOT ACT ALONE!" - neither did Pol Pot
You get your version of Che's story from some crackhead on a streetcorner?
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 06:58 AM
Response to Original message
58. Ernesto was a cynical murderer. He looked great on a poster, was a
Edited on Mon Dec-21-09 06:59 AM by old mark
completely inept military commander and valued mostly because Fidel Castro felt they were intellectual equals and they could talk easily.
Gueverra beat people-political prisoners-to death with baseball bats.

Fuck that little arrogant prick - I'm glad he's dead, and I'm looking forward to the next revolution in Cuba.


mark
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
62. jesus christ... this sounds like something a freeper trying to be a fake liberal would write.
huzzah comrade!!!!

weak ass-keyboard warrior crap...


:rofl:
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-24-09 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
64. All these people with "expert" opinions on Che - I doubt most of you have a clue.
What my opinion on Che?

Too bad, because guess what I just don't know enough to give you one.

Wish more people "waxing eloquent" on this thread would say that.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-24-09 07:25 AM
Response to Original message
65. Che was inept. Castro kept him around for conversation because they were
fairly equal in social rank and education.
Che as a terrible soldier, got many of his men killed on a training exercise that went very wrong, and a murderer who beat people to death with a baseball bat.

He sure looked great on that poster, though.

He was an overeducated fucking thug - don't romanticize that piece of shit.

mark
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