No, I don't think Al Franken or Bernie Sanders is selling out.

[cali]

I think they believe that this legislation is better than the status quo and opens the door to meaningful healthcare reform.

I've seen the posts claiming that they're sellouts and I don't buy it. I don't know that they're correct in that assessment, but I do know that the attacks here on their characters are garbage. Bernie's never sold out and I can't see Franken doing that either.

Why can't some of you just accept that these two good men don't agree with you?

[DJ13]

1. I accept that they dont agree with me

But can they accept that the base doesnt agree with them?

[cali]

2. I don't see why they wouldn't understand that many disagree with them

[Libertas1776]

3. +1

[tekisui]

4. I just hope they are each rewarded with whatever they want.

I hope the Senate works to pass legislation of their choice in thanks.

[cali]

7. Bernie got 10 billion for Community Health Centers n/t

[tekisui]

8. Yeah, that was a good addition.

[cliffordu]

5. Because the ones calling them sellouts are

like petulant children, crying cause their 'pure' political view is not being validated.

"IF you loved me you'd..."

Or they are professional operatives. I think I'm seeing more of that all the time,

[DJ13]

6. Or they are professional operatives.

Who is going to hire "professional operatives" to try and move legislation to serve the people over the corporations?

Thats silly.

[cliffordu]

11. NO - dammitt....

There are those who come HERE to agitate between the different factions of the party - to pit liberal against centrist, to agitate between the Dean Screamers and the Obama Loyalists, between the Clinton Cabal and the Kucinich Klatch.

Agitators with no ambition other than to stir the shit.

[blondeatlast]

41. I always have to wonder if they are RRRW think-tank interns.

I can picture Heritage Foundation hopefuls doing it for practice.

[cliffordu]

42. Exactly. We seem to be easily fractured.

[SPedigrees]

15. +100 Below are the highlights of significant reform in the current bill:

(delineated in today's email from Barbara Boxer)

Among other things, the bill would:

Extend health insurance coverage to 31 million more Americans, including 14 million lower-income, working people through Medicaid

Prohibit insurance company discrimination based on gender or pre-existing condition -- and make sure you can't lose your insurance when you get sick

End the upward, unsustainable increases in insurance premiums

Increase funding for community health centers in 10,000 communities across the country, enhancing primary care for more than 25 million people who have traditionally been uninsured or underinsured

Close the prescription drug "doughnut hole" for seniors

Require insurance companies to spend at least 85% of their income on patient care, not executive pay or profits

Cut the federal deficit by $132 billion, according to the Congressional Budget Office
-----------------------------

If Bernie and Franken are on board with this, it's fine by me.

[Love Bug]

9. Two days ago Franken was a hero around here and now he's a bum?

Sorry, but I trust his judgment on this. He's been working on this for MONTHS (I remember filling out a HC survey for him in August) and he has a pretty good grasp on what his constituents want. I'm sure he'd like there to be a public option as we all do, but I think he's decided that a flawed bill is better than none. Personally, I have mixed feelings about it and I don't know what I'd do in his situation.

Franken is no sell out and shame on anyone who says so.

[SPedigrees]

16. Same goes for my Senator, Bernie Sanders. nt

[Fire1]

17. Activists are so fickle. n/t

[saltpoint]

10. The angry crowd hunted Simon down and killed him, though he

had done many good things.

[Oregone]

12. Its more complicated than selling out on this particular piece of legislation

Some may believe that while it is corporate garbage, the alternative of a Democratic loss will have more negative implications. So, while some may recognize shit for shit, the question of future politics changes their perception of the vote.

The only problem with that line of thinking is that if corruption ensures the viability of Democratic Party, it leads the way for future corrupt bills. If the Democractic Party stands for nothing, than "holding ones nose" to ensure it survives lacks all justification

[Fire1]

13. The same reason they can't accept ANYBODY disagreeing

with them. It's too bad, really.

[RufusTFirefly]

14. It's so refreshing to respectfully disagree with someone for a change

I'm all but certain that Sanders isn't a sellout. And I'm pretty sure Franken isn't either.

I realize that there's a divide among progressives on this issue. I just respectfully disagree with both men in this case.

[coti]

18. They're just being good soldiers. Loyalty to their President.

And they're trying to sell what they're doing the best they can.

But that isn't always a good thing. If they had better political smarts they wouldn't be doing this.

[cali]

22. I doubt Bernie is just being loyal to Obama. He's not even a dem

I think it's a riot though that you think YOUR political smarts are better than theirs. Bernie is supporting this because he believes it's better than doing nothing- particularly now that he got 10 billion for CHCs.

[coti]

23. The riot is going to be the populist message Obama just handed the GOP

that they are going to repeatedly smack us with- "Obama forced you to buy private insurance."

That'll be the campaign, and we'll lose- big.

Do you disagree?

[cali]

30. Honestly, I don't know. I don't think anyone does

that's for sure the attack they'll be pushing, but I don't know if it'll be effective.

[walldude]

19. I like them both. However it's very hard to reconcile the fact that

they believe that in the future they will be able to fix the things that they couldn't get done now. And since I just came out of the thread saying the bailed out banks are about to get into the Insurance industry, I have to wonder what would make anyone think that they will allow the government to pass any bill that will cut into their profits.

Doesn't mean I won't support them. They are on my short list of decent people left in government.

[coti]

21. Exactly- we know who the good senators are. nt

[ixion]

20. I can accept that we don't agree

but to call this bill "meaninngful reform" is intellectually dishonest, in my opinion. I know you will disagree with that, and that's okay, too. :)

[Vinca]

24. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bernie vote against the actual bill

if nothing changes in it. I don't think anyone who is a Democrat or who caucuses with the Democrats should filibuster with the Republicans over a Democratic bill, even if they don't agree with it. In my mind there is a big distinction between a procedural vote and an actual vote on a bill.

[cali]

36. he won't. he got the 10 billion for CHCs.

he'll almost certainly vote for the legislation.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

25. Sanders in on record saying that this isnt the bill he would have written

but he wanted to make it better. I dont think Sanders is a sellout by a long shot, Franken is much too new in the Senate to read. But Sanders has a record of someone who is not a sellout. Just because I disagree with them doesnt mean I think either of them is a sellout.

[laughingliberal]

26. Whether they are voting their consciense or they are under political pressure if of no concern to me

The bill does little to help and whole hell of a lot to hurt in areas where it will not become apparent for a long time to come. Once the damage is seen, it will be too late to reverse it easily.

[Mitzo1310]

27. Pre-existing condition...

Until Congress is serious about removing tax breaks for employer provided health insurance - the "pre-existing condition" that made the health care insurance industry what it is today - everyone who votes for this legislation is a sellout. This isn't reform. This is shuffling the chairs on the deck of the Titanic.

[billyoc]

28. I won't attack either of them personally. I strongly disagree with them, though.

[AlinPA]

29. I with you on this, cali. nt

[Toasterlad]

31. And *I* Think Someone Told Them That If They Don't Get On Board, Their Careers Are Over.

[cali]

33. I think if someone had threatened Bernie that way

that he'd blow a gasket and go public with the threat. Besides, how on earth could they end Bernie's career? He's not a dem. He's massively popular in VT. That's just silly paranoia.

[Toasterlad]

34. Politicians Who Don't Go Along Get Marginalized Or Labelled Kooks.

They did it to Dean and Kucinich, and they could easily do it to Sanders.

[cali]

37. you can do it nationally it really can't be done here in Vermont

Kucinich is still in the House. And Kucinich did quite a bit to marginalize himself.

[Toasterlad]

40. I Think Kucinich Is Useful To Them Because He's No Real Threat.

They've made sure that he's effectively neutered politically. And they can still point to him whenever they need an example of a progressive in Congress. But if they didn't want him in office, they could smear him right out of office. And they could do the same to Sanders.

Sheeple believe what the TV tells them to believe. Vermont is no exception.

[bigtree]

32. Nelson got more medicaid money for his state and so did Sanders

kinda of a payoff?

[cali]

35. Bernie got 10 billion for CHCs all around the country

Leahy got the increase in Medicaid funds.

[bigtree]

38. do you think those two items make up for the lack of a public option?

It's an interesting combo. I think the Medicaid money helps with the changes in the states and makes room for more low-income folks, but I'm not clear that these are acceptable substitutes for what he was demanding. Obviously he does.

[cali]

39. no, of course they don't make up or replace the public option

but I think that Bernie saw that there was no way to get the po and had to choose between voting nay and getting what he could.