One of our students on the Cho incident.

[donco6]

I was out and about on school visits last week, and came on a class of high schoolers doing a Socratic seminar on Cho and Virginia Tech. There were quite a few boys speaking up saying things like, "We have to have more security . . . need to wear name badges . . . metal detectors . . . background checks . . . " etc etc. Others were talking about how those have problems and how they used to go to this school or that school and they had metal detectors there, but people would just pass weapons through the bathroom window, etc. It was really interesting.

But then one girl who had been quiet the whole time stood up and just laid into everyone, "I can't beLIEVE you're buying into all of this!! We don't need more security and less privacy - we've already lost so much of that as it is. What we need to do is take CARE of each other! If someone is lonely we need to help them, not hurt them. If someone is strange it's probably because we've helped make them that way - or someone else did. We all know each other - there's only 88 kids in the entire Junior class! We can stop this stuff by making sure we're all OK."

There was more, and there was some pushback from the others, but overall I think she carried the debate that day. It was downright inspiring. And I think she's right. I work in schools. Kids are smart. If they are so alienated that they feel they need to do some act of violence, no metal detector or name badge is going to get in the way. But if we all learned to really KNOW each other (and it's a lot easier when your school is only 400 kids), I think we could avoid a lot of death and destruction.

[blonndee]

1. This was nice to hear. n/t

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ends_dont_justify]

6. Not just boys are the 'tough' want more security crowd N/T

[hfojvt]

8. As a small guy

I scare easy. When I hear stories about kids who bring weapons to school, sometimes I do not think it is fair to single them out as the troublemakers. I wanna know who made them so scared, or so angry, that they felt like they wanted a weapon. Many times, it is not so much about 'making sure everybody is okay, or feels included, etc.' it is about leaving them, and their friends, the fu$% alone. But to me also, there is nothing illogical or cowardly about being scared of getting shot.

[Bunny]

9. And referring to them by using a vulgar term for female genitalia will accomplish

exactly... what? :shrug:

[goddess40]

3. Smart girl - do something about bullying

and we've gone a lot further to stop these incidents than any type of gun control we could offer. (getting rid of all guns isn't feasible nor is it what this country needs - gun control that demands responsibility and reality about what type of guns people should be able to have yes - getting rid of all guns - no)
Plus we need to treat mental illness and autism as any other health issue - insurance has to pay for it and people need to not be snarky about other's short comings.

[dansolo]

46. It sounds like she was talking about alienation, not bullying

Bullying is an extreme form of alienation, but I think the point she was trying to make is that why should it get all the way to the point of bullying before people start to care about others?

[goddess40]

50. ostracizing is a form of bullying

Girls use it as one of their main means of bullying but guys use it too.

[lse7581011]

4. Happy to be #5 rec! n/t

[TomInTib]

5. recommended. That girl makes more sense than half the damned country. nt

[Wetzelbill]

7. that's certainly an overlooked aspect

Too many people focus on the violent act itself, probably out of fear. How do you stop a person with a gun on a rampage? Metal detector! More security! Let's all have guns! No wait, nobody should have a gun!

It is damn near impossible to stop something like this. If I wanted to I could go buy a gun at this place down the street, then walk into the store across from my apartment and blow away probably 5 people at least before anybody even realized what went on. You're right, no metal detector or name badge would stop that. But, you know what? I wouldn't do that. Nobody has ever hurt me or picked on me or anything. I am not an alienated person who has felt or been wronged. Nor in my writings have I given out any warning signs like that kid or many other shooters in the past have. If these kids who went on these rampages weren't lonely and alienated, or had people care about them, like the rest of us, things would be a lot different. If people knew them and recognized their illnesses etc, and cared enough to do something to help them that would help alleviate these problems a lot.

[donco6]

21. I agree, and I think it would help more than people know.

I believe many of these kids are just doing what they know to call out for help. Kids aren't naturally confrontive, i.e., they aren't going to walk up to someone and say they need help. So they find other ways to demonstrate it. I think these signs are all part of it. And if people would just pay attention and act on it once in a while, I think we'd all be better off. I really do.

[LisaL]

10. I am sorry, but I think that girl has an extremely naive view.

You are not going to make everyone better by just being nice to them. And especially if someone is mentally ill, being nice to him/her ain't going to do much.

[DireStrike]

14. It's not about "being nice"

It's about engaging people personally instead of alienating them. Mental illness would probably be handled and treated much more readily and effectively if things were that way.

Of course, in a larger environment, this just isn't possible. If people just go to class and then go home, not much can be done about it.

[goddess40]

31. There are very effective anti-bullying programs

that address exactly what this bright young women is talking about.
Dr. Phil has one that is actually very good

[SmokingJacket]

15. It's not just about "being nice."

It's also about trying to alert people in authority that a person is having problems.

I had an acquaintance who was having a mental breakdown -- I saw what was happening, but I thought I wasn't close enough to him to intervene. I thought someone else would talk to him about it. Within weeks he'd killed himself.

I know if I'd contacted his family, they could have sent someone to talk him into getting help. :cry:

[LisaL]

17. I'd be turning people in day in and day out, if I called

authorities on everyone I thought was having problems.
I've met a lot of depressed and disturbed people.
None of them have killed themselves or anyone else.

[SmokingJacket]

18. There's a difference between oddballs and people who are

genuinely suffering. You can tell, but you can't always make a difference.

All I'm asking is that we try to help people when we can, instead just assuming it's someone else's problem.

[LisaL]

22. I am sure those "oddballs" as you call them were

genuinely suffering. Just cause people don't kill anyone does not mean they do not suffer.

[donco6]

20. True. But caring about people may get them help sooner.

Rather than letting the odd guy sit in the corner of the lunchroom every day, talking to himself as he pulls stuff out of his lunch bag, maybe the kids could alert a prevention specialist or a social worker or staff psych to let them know that this guy's got some serious problems. At least it would get him/her on the radar. So often these kids are invisible.

[Dorian Gray]

44. Maybe not

but I never saw anybody hurt by someone else treating them well.

[DireStrike]

11. I think nametags are a pretty good idea

Just from a social point of view, no?

But yeah, great point from the girl. Cool that she had the courage to say it.

[donco6]

19. We do already have ID badges.

They were actually talking about expanding the badges to more people - visitors, substitutes, etc. That would be somewhat expensive, but doable. But it wouldn't really solve the problem, ultimately.

[goddess40]

33. they remove the anonymity that happens in big schools

When people think they won't be recognized they feel free to be jerks - makes them feel powerful. Name tags worn on breakaway lanyards - with names big enough to be seen are the way of the future.

[Cha]

12. The girl had it

right.

[intheflow]

13. Get that girl on a school board ballot!

:kick:

[BlooInBloo]

16. So wonderful to see Americans soooo willing to freely give up their own fucking freedoms. Fuckwads.

[midnight]

23. This message that caring about eachother is what could

rescue this country from those who keep telling us that money trumps peace.

[Evoman]

24. That girl is dumb.

What a stupid suggestion...what we need to do is arm all the kids. Give em all guns, I say, and let em sort it out.

Although the gun industry needs to take more responsibility....kindergarteners to grade threes might have trouble holding their weapons, so we should point a finger at the gun industry and say, "YOU! YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE. You have to make a lighter Glock."

We could call the guns Glock Jrs.

[TheGriz]

25. Recommended.

Metal detectors, ID tags, increased security guards, and gun control will never stop someone from becoming so depressed, delusional and desperate that they feel the need to kill; a compassionate friend might.

[goddess40]

34. our high schools have a women sitting at a table taking names...

of anyone that comes through the front door - in a real crisis her identification will be victim number one. I plan on putting her work hours to better use - we have made so many cuts I rather have her hours to give back the hours cut from counselors office.

[camero]

26. Be nice to others

The life you save could be your own.

Hell, I thought we would get this after Columbine but what the heck.

[LisaL]

28. Hmm. Mr. Cho was actually accused of stalking.

Do you all think befriending him would have been such a good idea after all?

[donco6]

29. Look lizzy, . . .

It's not about befriending, it's about KNOWING. Knowing when someone is a danger to themselves or others. Granted, maybe being a friend is appropriate sometimes, but not always. I don't think this student was stupid or naiive about that. But knowing about a problem and not making others aware is just wrong. It's bad for us and bad for them.

One of the biggest problems we all face today is knowing that a kid has a tenuous grasp on reality, but not having any avenue to provide help. That's certainly what we face here in schools. We're not mental health facilities. We barely have enough funding just to provide textbooks and teachers. But if the state or feds were doing something to provide us with real mental health access for kids, AND if the schools were able to function as true communities where kids couldn't just meld into the woodwork - I only see that as a good thing. Not stupid. Not naiive. Good.

It's difficult to document everything the class discussed without a word for word transcript, but all I can tell you is that they dealt with the issue on a very sophisticated level that considered many of the objections you're raising. And they still kept coming back to knowing and caring. And it convinced me, that's for sure.

[LisaL]

38. It's very easy to care for some imaginary mentally troubled

person. It's quite another thing to care for some strange dude in class who won't say two words to you. Anyhow, maybe that's news for you-but it's not going to happen in a real world.

[donco6]

40. Why so nasty, lizzy?

If you must know, I know quite a lot about mental illness. My nephew, whom I helped raise, is schizophrenic. So, yeah, I know about the real world. He's put his mother and me through hell for 33 years. And a big part of that has been because of the absolutely shitty state of mental health services here in the US. The one place he was in that actually helped him ended up closing for lack of funding. Now he's on Medicaid and has to have his meds changed every few years just because some dumbass bureaucrat thinks he's costing too much.

So just don't f-ing tell me about the real world.

[LisaL]

45. Not nasty. Just being realistic.

It seems to me that girl's suggestion that only if people were nice to Mr. Cho this wouldn't have happened is "feel good" but rather very silly. How would being "nice" prevent this tragedy?

[camero]

30. Let's just hope that "having fun at other's expense"

goes out of style soon. But I truly doubt that. Especially since this guy was "quiet". Now it'll just be another excuse to fear people who like quiet since they "fit" the media profile of a mass murderer.

[johnnie]

27. I agree with the young lady

But the problem is, society isn't like that. We could be all "peace, love and togetherness" (which is what I like), but too many people feel it is an infringement on their lives. If anyone tries to "put their nose in" anyone's life, they are accused of infringement.

I agree that it would be a great thing if we could all care about each other, but if you try to care sometimes, you are setting yourself up to be sued.

When it all comes down to it, we are not as an advanced civilization that we pretend to be. We are still bopping each other over the head for shiny things and I personally don't see an end of it in the near future.

[goddess40]

35. unfortunately it will take lawsuits to get us going in the right direction

and by right I mean left.

If Cho was bullied persistently in the lower grades I think his parents and the parents of those shot at V.T. have a reasonable chance at suing Cho's school district.

I wish it didn't have to be that way and I'm going to try and work to prevent that in my town but pushing an anti-bullying program - a real comprehensive one not some principal announcing on the morning announcements that everyone should be nice to others.

[LisaL]

37. I am not sure in what universe can his parents sue the

school district for him possibly being bullied there.

[The Backlash Cometh]

32. Wise beyond her years.

[tomreedtoon]

36. Sorry, but this "love" philosophy raised the body count.

Anyone with more than a few years on this earth knows that people generally don't care for each other. And sometimes caring doesn't help; in the case of this shooter, it's obvious he was mentally ill, and neither psychiatry, drugs, good feelings or God could save him. And that will be true of the next killer who comes along next week, next month.

The only "caring for each other" that is possible is to set up systems where we can care for each other. If there were procedures for locking down the school that were implemented, the death toll would have been lower. With all the trouble in his past, the shooter should have been put in a rubber room for life - the only treatment for severe mental illness. That's all that we humans can possibly expect.

But most of you are unable to understand that mental illness is essentially incurable when you get to a certain point. You like to think anyone is salvageable. That's an adorable, cute philosophy, but it ain't true. And believing in that philsophy, in the end, caused the death toll to rise.

[LisaL]

39. I would say. Being nice to everyone just not going to happen.

And it's not going to be much good for someone with mental problems either. After all, mental illness is disease of the brain. Would someone be suggesting that just being nice to someone having cancer or a heart disease should do the trick? Mentally ill people should not be able to buy guns-now that could really help. That and locking them up if they are a danger to themselves or others, and not just for 48 hours.

[donco6]

41. Not surprisingly, I disagree.

I just try to picture my schizophrenic nephew sitting in a rubber room for his entire life and feel physically ill. He doesn't belong there - even though he spends a good part of his day out in the garage smoking cigarettes and talking to his "friends." He's had really good meds in the course of his treatment that worked very well - unfortunately, he had to move off of them because his Medicaid wouldn't pay for them anymore.

Incurable? Probably. Untreatable? No way.

[tomreedtoon]

42. Sorry again, but I've been there before.

I watched my mother's mind and soul taken by Alzheimer's. I didn't watch it closely; my sister, the bravest soul I know, was the one who took care of her as long as she could. But calling her every week, and talking to my mother (or trying to) gave me a taste of the hell it is to watch a person's mind die.

I'm sorry for your nephew, and I know it's hard to accept the fact that he's a person who will never be well, and may not even be a person. But I had to accept that fact. And that no matter what that band of liars called psychiatrists say, there is nothing you can do. You are powerless before the commands of that cruel being called God.

That's tragedy, and it's possible to weep about it in private. But in the area where something can be done - namely keeping schitzoids from killing people en masse - something has to be done. The people at Virginia Tech either didn't have those safeguards or they thought they were nonsense, and so thirty-three ended up dead instead of two.

[Festivito]

49. Sorry you're sorry. Your point one for one is not right.

After traveling the world for several years, meeting people at all levels, I can say that people do indeed care for each other.

Second. We have had people on DU discuss similar feelings and how they are now fine under medication.

And there is no call around here to eliminate prisons entirely such that there is denial of unsalvageable persons. The question is still at what threshold do we incarcerate, and how much resource to devote to find new methods of salvage.

I'm sad to hear of your mother's Alzheimers. I hope you are able to take a week to let your sister off or buy your mother a month's stay at in a nursing facility for your sister's sake.

Oh, there are people who do not care for others, but, I find, they generally do care for others. They just see themselves as an other, usually hurt and subsequently insecure, but salvageable.

I wish you and your family well.

[KitSileya]

54. I don't think it's so much about being nice and loving each other

as it is about making sure that everyone has the necessities they need - that includes health care and mental health care. If there's reason to believe you are a danger to society, you need to be secured, of course, but with ample protections, both legal, financial, and medical. I think that a lot of the horrible cases in the US could have been prevented if people with mental problems actually got help. What use is notifying the authorities about any suspicions if you know they won't be looked at for years, and when the majority of the population considers such governmental help a theft from their own pocketbook?

In Norway, mental health care has unfortunately been on the backburner for several decades, and we are reaping the benefits of that now, with more and more horrible interfamily murders happening monthly. Due to Norway's geography, a lot of people own hunting rifles, but semiautomatics are illegal, so we've not had the crazed shooter mowing down people in public places, but men killing their wives and girlfriends has sadly become more common. But we do have in place a system to take dangerous psychiatric patients off the streets, even when they haven't committed a crime, or if they've served their punishment for such crimes. A board of legal and medical experts may determine that these people are to be confined in a mental hospital until they no longer are a danger to themselves or others. We can never completely avoid murders and other tragedies, but we can try to minimize their numbers.

[Marie26]

43. That's a nice sentiment.

But it wouldn't have prevented this massacre. This person was a bomb waiting to go off - and there's no way to be sure why, how, or when he became this way. The one thing we can do is try to assure that people like this do not have access to semi-automatic weapons. I hope that this tragedy finally inspires Virginia to strengthen their almost non-existent gun laws.

[1932]

47. That same instinct should be harnessed toward better health care too.

[OneBlueSky]

48. "What we need to do is take CARE of each other!" . . . now if we could only . . .

1) accept the truth of this statement, and 2) extrapolate it to the entire nation . . .

we might actually start making some progress . . .

one thing we must never forget, though . . . it is in the best interests of the power elite (BushCo, corporations, the media) to keep us divided . . . which is why they not only emphasize, but actively promote, our differences . . . race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, politics, you name it . . . if it's divisive, it's NEWS! . . . dammit! . . .

what they SHOULD be doing is emphasizing and actively promoting, of course, is our common humanity . . . and how we need to care for each other if we want to save ourselves and the planet's othere life communities from certain destruction -- how we're all in this together. if you will . . . because when we find ways to work together, we can actually accomplish things . . . BIG things! . . .

the problem, of course, is that if we acknowledge our common humanity and that we're all in this together, it quickly becomes obvvious that we are in direct opposition to said power elite -- including the media . . . so anything we say or do to minimize our differences while maximizing our commonalities is either ignored, mis-characterized, linked to terrorists, or simply lied about . . .

[IronLionZion]

51. an ounce of prevention.....

clever girl. It would be nice if we all cared about each other. If only wishing made it so. Damn.

On the same line of thinking, if we got to know each other, then if someone wasn't OK we would know and could do something about it.

[donco6]

52. That, in a nutshell, was her point.

Of course, the "do something about it" part is what seems to cause the confusion here. Some evidently want to lock people away like some old Bedlam asylum. Others want to give everyone guns. We just seem to be coming from such disparate positions, I wonder if there's any common ground sometimes. It's discouraging.

[LostinVA]

53. We need stronger anti-stalking laws

I have mental illness in my family. I believe we need better mental illness resources and education in this country. I'm gay, but was able to "pass" in high school, but saw some vicious anti-gay bullying there, and believe we need string anti-bullying laws.

However, FROM WHAT WE KNOW, Cho was like "this" way before he was ever bullied in middle school, and I have seen no real evidence that he had a mental illness. I have seen, however, lots of evidence that he had an extreme personality disorder (wikipedia Borderline Personality Disorder -- it fits the guy like a glove). I have also seen that he actively stalked and intimidated fellow students -- specially female students. But, a lack of real stalking laws in VA (and other states), kept him in the same environment as his victims. By "victims," I mean the girls he stalked and harassed.

I DO think the student you referenced was right: we DO need to take care of one another. I'm an ardent Democratic Socialist -- I embrace this philosophy. Lack of compassion and empathy cause most of this country's ills, I believe. However, I doubt that would have helped in this situation, because of this young man's probable disorder.

The young lady mentioned in your OP sounds like a great kid -- I hope she goes into a field where she can help others.

[donco6]

55. I really tried not to imply that this would have prevented . . .

the Cho incident. I agree with you that it almost certainly wouldn't have. But to prevent others like this, and just to try to create a better world, I like her thinking.