Can anyone tell me how we could have gotten a public option when we didn't have the votes for it?

[still_one]

[Ozymanithrax]

1. From where did you here that.

I've heard nothing like that.

[still_one]

9. nelson, lieberman, and other blue dogs said they wouldn't vote for the bill if it had a

public option. Were they lying?

[Ozymanithrax]

59. Now I understand. And there was never the votes in the Senate for either option.

Just as there was never votes in Congress for Single Payer.

[ima_sinnic]

69. and Obama had absolutely nothing he could use to change their minds--right (nt).

[uppityperson]

72. Don't you think he would have if he could have? nt

[ima_sinnic]

87. he would have if he WANTED to. you think he's sooo weak & powerless?

[uppityperson]

89. recommendation, look up "dichotomous thinking".

go to dictionary.com
Either he can do everything, or has done nothing. If he failed, it was because he didn't care enough to even try since if he tried he'd always be successful.

Go look up "dichotomous thinking".

[jeanpalmer]

117. When DeFazio got out of line

and criticized Obama for not focusing on jobs, Obama told him "don't think we're not keeping score, brother." Did he ever say that to Nelson or Lieberman?

[NJmaverick]

2. Obama refused to use his magic powers to turn a couple of Republicans into Democrats

[ima_sinnic]

53. why are you so contemptuous of the president's abilities?You think he's weak, then?

I don't blame you, really. He was too weak to even TRY.

[uppityperson]

74. He didn't even TRY to use his magical powers? hahahahahaha

[ima_sinnic]

88. so he has no leverage with congresspeople. I guess he IS "too inexperienced." (nt)

[uppityperson]

91. Ah. All or nothing. Dichotomous thinking again. eom

[ima_sinnic]

118. is that the new "gotcha," the guaranteed "argument winner" that shuts people up?

after all, it really does address the issue in a very meaningful way.


ooh, you said I was a dichotomous thinker!! I am sooo put down and have no response!

:rofl: :wtf:

[uppityperson]

126. Merely pointing out that there are shades of grey

I you prefer to think in terms of all or nothing, good or evil, black or white, then you probably will have no response beyond being confused.

[jonnyblitz]

3. I guess that was the part were people thought Obama would

do the thing most presidents do when they want legislation supported and passed. :shrug:

[still_one]

10. and what is that, seriously, in this environment what could he threaten the purple states with?

[Skittles]

13. fight for it?

OMG - what an idea :o

[still_one]

20. Fight how? In other words, how do you get someone to vote for something when they say

they won't?

[Skittles]

23. bribery, arm-twisting, impassioned pleas - it happens all the time

it's called politicking - and if a vote doesn't change, at least put the damn thing ON RECORD

[still_one]

29. bush was able to do it because descent is not allowed with republicans. I am skeptical

that could be done today with the current crop of Democrats, but you are right, they should at least try, and I don't think they tried very hard, but I don't really know

Thanks

[treestar]

104. There has been some bribery of Ben Nelson

Though it came from other congressmen.

They make deals. That's how it doesn't go on the record. I suspect nothing would ever get done if they treated everything like that.

[Captain Hilts]

25. Get your hand-picked head of the DNC to threaten no campaign funds. Stuff like that. nt

[eleny]

38. You strip them of any powers they have in the Senate and you tell them...

... that their state will suffer.

President Obama isn't the Fluffy-In-Chief. He's supposed to be the most powerful individual in the free world. So dammit, he ought to act like it when it comes to advancing the best interests of the majority of Americans.

[ima_sinnic]

52. you get The People so excited about it, and wanting it so much, that

nobody could vote against it, or would have to be absolutely pig-headed. With Obama's gift of eloquence, he could have easily convinced the nation of the absolute sense and rightness of a public plan--but I guess he had better things to do, like planning some more bombings and stuff, so he let Max Baucus "take care of it."

[laughingliberal]

70. You know, coming out of August, even, people supported the Public Option when they knew what it was

and it always polled well even in the purple states. We worked and ran ads and moved the poll numbers even in Nelson's states. The crap about them having to worry about their elections back home was BS. It was weird cause it seemed the more support we drummed up for the public option the more it irritated them How many times did Obama have the opportunity to call these guys in and say, "the people of the country want it and your state wants it. get it done?" It was baffling for him to bypass every opportunity to use the ammunition we had to fight for the public option. Then, after they killed every shred of any possibility to have any program to compete with the private insurance corporations then he came to work and told Harry Reid to cut a deal with Lieberman. And, Harry, as bad as he can be was pissed about it. He did want some kind of public option and felt the Medicare buy in would satisfy everyone. Why wasn't Obama there telling Lieberman or the other thugs to get on board? Why did he ignore the work of the House and the Senate HELP bill at that town hall and praise Baucus and his gang of six obstructionists for their hard work when it was obvious they were writing a Republican lite bill? The only sane explanation here is that he never wanted it and he used the obstructionists as his cover for it. Russ Feingold told us it was always the bill he wanted. The behavior every step of the way seems to support that. If it wasn't that this is the bill he wanted, it means he's terribly ineffective or has no political compass. I don't think either of those things are true.

[ima_sinnic]

75. ++++1 yeah, whatever happened to Yes We Can? who was WE, anyway?

because the whole "public option" thing, which was some vague undefined compromise of single-payer to begin with, became No We Can't pretty quickly.

He's a phony who can give a good speech, nothing more. He's got his lips locked firmly on the corporate string-pullers' butts and is delivering very well for them. Their investment in his campaign is paying big dividends.

[laughingliberal]

90. Another blast from the past: Make me do it. Well what the hell more could we have done? The whole

damned country wanted it. I'm not sure how we make him do it outside of garnering widespread support from the public.

[ima_sinnic]

99. "make me do it"--has kind of a "folksy" charm, doesn't it?

the "mischievous" twinkle, the implication that "we're in on something together."

feh. taken all together--escalation of war, bombing new countries, messing around quite hawkishly & right-wingedly in South America, handing over our money to Wall St., bankers, and now health insurers, secret meetings with big pharma, blithely but insincerely "promising" that "everybody would have a seat at the table" in health care discussions (it used to be "health care reform," didn't it? now it's "health insurance reform") and then sinking into the background while his consigliere Baucus sealed the deal with the insurance co's, redefining war crimes to make more atrocities "legal," totally dismissing and obstructing any attempt to bring the war criminals to justice, going against totally everything he ever "promised" gays, pushing for mountaintop removal coal mining, and a whole lot of stuff we don't even know about in the minutiae of bureaucratic maneuvers--well, I do not feel good about it at all.

He's succeeded in fracturing the Democratic Party--but actually, that might be a good thing. It could be the very beginning of the end for the single-party system we have now.

[laughingliberal]

111. I'm horrified. It is too overwhelming to even take it all in

I was horrified about the Bush years but surprised only by the speed with which they destroyed a middle and working class that was wounded but seemed to be recovering. The war crime did not shock me after the Reagan/Bush years in South and Central America. But I am shocked to see this happening in a Democratic administration I voted for. The DLC'ers have all the money. Not sure how we get anyone not beholding to the corporatists on the ballot even, let alone elected. Perhaps it's time to look into the history of groups like the White Rose Society.

[Le Taz Hot]

121. How?

Look up LBJ and get back to me.

[Captain Hilts]

4. The point is to force Republican members to stand up and go on record as opposing it.

[Skittles]

11. pitiful they don't don't seem to understand this basic point

:(

[still_one]

15. Now you are talking a strategy, and that is good. Do you think not only the republicans,

but the blue dogs would have gone on record as opposing it?

[Captain Hilts]

18. Last summer the PO had a 71% favorability rating. I don't care what color opponents were...

I want them on record as opposing it.

Taking names.

[still_one]

24. OK, but do you think that would have got it into the bill, or just part of a plan to use it

in the next election against them?

[Captain Hilts]

27. The term 'public option' covers a lot of ground. So, some form might have gotten in, but, yes

using it against some folks in the election would also be good.

We have a right to know how each member stands on this vital issue.

[still_one]

40. I have to agree that it sure appeared that the administration did not fight very hard for the

public option.

[Captain Hilts]

43. I understand that the results of all this might not have been significantly different

if Dean or Clinton - either - had been prez, but how you get where you are going is important.

The folks on the senate committee said that the President didn't call during the tough negotiations. I don't understand that at all. There are a lot of half-assed ways a public option could have been included, and excluded, but I don't see signs anyone really fought for it.

Again, I think a lot of United Statesians have seen their health insurance costs increase significantly. Absent getting rid of the exemption from anti-trust regulations that the health insurance industry has, where is the competition to keep prices from increasing?

We could have marketed this in ways that appeal specifically to conservatives and I don't see any Democrats really doing that.

[still_one]

45. Thanks for the insight /nt

[Captain Hilts]

48. Thanks for being interested in the process. Keep the faith!

I think we have a winning team and I want them to act like it!

[still_one]

49. I hope so /nt

[AlinPA]

46. The republicans did stand up and went on record as opposing it. They said

they wanted to stop it and make it Obama's "Waterloo".

[Captain Hilts]

50. Individual names. Individual votes. nt

[AlinPA]

55. Every one voted against the motion to proceed when it came of committee.

[Captain Hilts]

63. That's not the same. nt

[musicblind]

115. While I'm mostly on your side in this arguement and think Obama could do more.Why isn't it the same?

It's going on record and voting against proceeding with health care reform?

[Ozymanithrax]

60. The Republicans point in opposing health care, was to keep any changes from taking place.

We should have told them if we weren't serious and only wanted to embarrass them in front of Democratic Constituents.

We succeded anway. They are on record as opposing health care under any circumstances.

[mrcheerful]

5. Obama could have got out his magic wand and waved it over congress

thus ensuring everyone voted for it.

[LastNaturalist]

6. MAGIC!!

Poof!

[ima_sinnic]

56. oh, is that how LBJ got Congress to pass the bill that President Kennedy had written? (nt)

[EmeraldCityGrl]

7. Ben Nelson flipped after they offered his state millions in medicare dollars.

They could have made other deals like that for starters.

[treestar]

19. There's a point

Who could have been the target for that?

[still_one]

33. That would be interesting to know /nt

[EmeraldCityGrl]

36. All the states are hurting. Any number of them would

have flipped for the right incentive. Personally, I have no problem
paying these whores off for their vote, That's all they understand.

[LastNaturalist]

26. Ben Nelson is a smart man.

[still_one]

32. Good point. It would be interesting to know if he tried that with others /nt

[Chulanowa]

8. Who cares? It's just fun to blame Obama for shit

[LastNaturalist]

14. Ain't that the truth. It's also fun to pretend Howie Dean would have been SOOO different.

[Chulanowa]

28. Well, having been a Deaniac in '04...

I think he would have been "different" to say the least.

I do want more from Obama. I also know that screaming into a soundproof bubble on the internet about shit that really isn't his fault won't help a damned thing, too.

[LastNaturalist]

30. I disagree. He may have been louder. And then accomplished nothing, by alienating Congress.

Like Jimmy Carter.

[still_one]

42. The question is did he try to get the public option? You can try to get the public option

without alienating Congress

If it doesn't work, we have what we have now

[ima_sinnic]

67. he didn't try jack. He got the bill he wanted, and "just by coincidence,"

it's the insurance companies' dream!
Is Obama that weak and ineffectual, that he can let the process of crafting a landmark healthcare bill slip completely out of his control? sheesh, then he's fucking incompetent if not corrupt.

[uppityperson]

77. I would ask why you are on DU, but it seems obvious why.

[ima_sinnic]

83. yeah, stupid me, I actually used to believe that the Democratic Party stood for something

you can't even tell when you've been had.

[uppityperson]

84. Sure you did, just not the same thing most of us thought.

[ima_sinnic]

92. oh, you already knew it stood for capitulating to every demand made by repukes?

I guess I'm a slow learner, then. Believe me, I won't be making that mistake in 2010 or 2012, now that I see where they're REALLY coming from.

[uppityperson]

93. Ah. Sure you "now" see and won't make "that mistake" again. Sure. eom

[ima_sinnic]

96. well, I'll admit I was gullible, yes, and got a lot of people excited about voting for Obama

but so were millions of others, so I'm not alone. They won't be making that mistake again either.

[Chulanowa]

112. he could have screamed at the top of his lungs.

And know what the Legislative branch would have heard?



It's the only thing they fucking listen to.

So don't give me this shit about what obama could have done. Yeah, I would have appreciated it if he's been more vocal. but you and I both know that the problem isn't that the president was quiet, the problem is that our congrespeople and senators are WHORES, bought and paid to suck corporate cock.

Easy to forget amid the rising tide of "I was hating on Obama back when he was cool" hipsters.

[still_one]

34. I am really not blaming anyone, just trying to understand what happened and the process

Isn't that the point of DU, to engage each other, and hopefully, become more knowledgeable because of it

[Pirate Smile]

44. Bingo. It's no longer Lieberman's fault. He's not responsible for what he did.

We know Obama controls Lieberman - it was obvious during the 2008 campaign while Revolting Joe went around campaigning with McCain and Palin.

[ima_sinnic]

65. oh blah blah blah, if you think Obama & Lieberman aren't "like this,"

I want some of what you're smoking. They're both professional chameleons laughing all the way to the bank, like the one that works for Geico (ironic, isn't it?).

[ima_sinnic]

64. no, it's not "fun," it's the truth. He didn't do jack to get a public plan--didn't even TRY (nt)

[Chulanowa]

114. Know what this forum lacks?

This emote:

Let me ask you. At this time last year, we had a corrupt-ass bunch of spineless gasbags who only have eyes for stacks of green who are willing to sell out any amount of their constituents for a couple bucks all suckling the public teat as legislators up in DC.

What the shit makes you think that situation changed on January 21 of this year? They're the same spineless corrupt sellouts they were before obama was in charge. if you think he can raise his voice by a few timbres and shit gets done EXACTLY LIKE YOU WANT, well, you're fucking deluded.

These motherfuckers are the problem:


Not this motherfucker:


Get it? Just in case you're still fucking dumber than an old shoe on the side of the road..

Blame this dickweasel:
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/06/11/josephlieberman_narrowweb__300x449,0.jpg

Or this one:


Or hell, how about this one?


You know, the people who actually worked on this handful of shit and are the ones responsible for passing it.

Stop looking for ways to place the blame in Obama's pocket.

[ima_sinnic]

116. oh, okay, I get it: Obama has NO influence. He's only the most powerful person in the world

but he has absolutely NO influence on any bill that he ever introduced or even merely outlined in the Congress of his own country and has absolutely nothing at his disposal, no leverage of any kind, he can use to gather support by legislators for actual legislation he wants accomplished. Of course, without ever introducing or outlining such a bill, I guess it's kind of a moot point.

okay, got it! The President of the United States is actually a kind of figurehead. The REAL power is with Joe Lieberman.

[Chulanowa]

127. Yes. In the Senate, a senator carries more weight than the President.

Glad to have you on board. Please enjoy your time on Reality Airlines.

[AllentownJake]

12. He ran on the issue as part of his reform package

There is a word for promising people something and delivering something else.

[Webster Green]

16. Just run the Senate like the repukes did..

They rammed all kinds of shit through with less than 60 votes, yet the Dems need 60 votes on EVERYTHING?! :wtf:

[Poll_Blind]

21. Tell me about it. If anything, that's the biggest indicator that people are in pockets. n/t

PB

[still_one]

35. Democrats are not like republicans, so I don't buy that argument. Some Democrats are too far right

[Stinky The Clown]

17. Leadership starting on Day One might have been a good start

Beginning negotiations by asking for Single Payer and maybe negotiation to some middle ground from there. Being willing to do whatever it takes to win.

But the biggest single thing he could have done: Believed in the same goals the majority of Americans believe in: real health care reform.

Only a moron would not have had their bullshit radar go off when the "debate" changed from that around health care reform to one about health *insurance* reform.

[Captain Hilts]

22. And market it to conservatives: the current system as a huge, unfunded mandate on business, etc.

Precluding a free labor market, etc.

Not taking advantage of economies of scale.

There are conservative arguments to win some of them over.

[bluestateguy]

31. This requires a long and complicated explanation

I can't bumper sticker it.

[still_one]

37. fair enough, though there are some pretty good responses /nt

[Davis_X_Machina]

39. Obama. Signing statements. Executive orders. Bush did it. End of. n/t

[still_one]

41. Do you think he will? I don't /nt

[Alenne]

47. People want Obama to be like Bush

except when they don't.

[laughingliberal]

51. First, I believe pressure could have been brought to bear on the Blue Dogs just as easily as it was

on the progressives. Had the president really wanted the public option and I do not now believe he did, I am sure there could have been a deal cut just as there were deals cut to get them in line once the PO and Medicare buy in had been killed. I don't think any of these Senators want to see a President of their own party go down in flames a year before the midterms. My point is I do believe if President Obama had really wanted the public option, he would have gotten it. All the deal making was after it was dead. Then we saw and heard of him moving into action. It verifies what Russ Feingold said that this was the bill the president wanted all along.

That said. the other way to get it would have been through reconciliation. I know people wail and gnash their teeth that parts of the bill would have been lost but some parts of the bill need to be lost. The same people who scream about that have no problem announcing they are proud to be incrementalists. So, if we're going to do this incrementally, do the part people will like first. Will make it much easier to add to later if people like what they have, so far. Will be much harder to get anything fixed if what they got the last time these guys touched health care was a disaster. Will just give more credence to the old joke about the scariest words you could hear, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help." Next time they want to help, I believe the answer from America is likely to be, "thanks, but no thanks."

[dkf]

54. Expand Medicare through buy in and Medicaid through budget reconciliation

You can't create new programs but you can expand old ones through this process. It would take fifty one votes in the senate to pass

[walldude]

66. Bingo...

The votes are there to get a Medicare buy in for whoever wants it. It's kinda why everyone is so pissed off, not sure why people don't get this. Thom Hartmann has been talking about it for months...


edit: it's also deficit neutral, and allows the tea baggers to keep their crappy policies without having their taxes increased.

[ima_sinnic]

57. Obama could have made The People so excited about it, that they

would have pressured their reps and senators.
But he had "other things" to do.

Believe me, if Obama had REALLY WANTED a public option, there would be a public option in the bill. Between making a huge effort to explain it completely to the public (the way Howard Dean had people going door-to-door in every county in Vt explaining the plan there before it was passed) and getting them all psyched, he also had his bully pulpit and his supposed "skills" in politicking. But maybe those who thought he was "too inexperienced" were right, because he just acted like he didn't really care what happened--he turned it over to Max Baucus and that was pretty much that.

[treestar]

58. The Hypnotic Messiah thing would have "made the people so excited about it"

Weird.

[ima_sinnic]

62. excuse me? you didn't notice how Obama used to galvanize people?

remember how he laid to rest the BS about Jeremiah Wright?
He had everybody, the whole world, hanging on his every word.

Surprised you have so little confidence in him to persuade people of something--that is his greatest skill. He sure fooled me with it, and a big majority of voters, too.

[uppityperson]

73. After reading what you write, "cynic" is not what I'd call you. eom

[ima_sinnic]

79. so? like I care what "name" you want to call me. You got anything of substance to say?

[uppityperson]

80. Ah. eom

[treestar]

101. Then he must have suddenly lost it

Or found out that dealing with Congress is a different proposition.

[uppityperson]

78. Odd how he either is a Hypnotic Messiah or "he's fucking incompetent if not corrupt"

weird indeed

[ima_sinnic]

81. "hypnotic messiah" was the cheerleader's term, not mine

he used his skill at oratory to charm the people, and then left them in the lurch, pretending to "care" while he cut deals with big pharma and let Lieberman mess things up. typical con artist MO. He got what he wanted.
whatever happened to "Yes We Can"? who was "we"?

[uppityperson]

82. Ah. "we" is obviously not including you since you can only see dichotomously.eom

[ima_sinnic]

85. oh, I thought it meant "We The People"

I guess he meant, we who want to be screwed.

[uppityperson]

86. Ah. There goes that dichotomous thinking again. Madonna or Whore. eom

[ima_sinnic]

94. ??? like that even makes sense

:wtf:

:rofl:

[uppityperson]

97. Google "dichotomous thinking". Educate yourself.

[treestar]

102. Why would he do that?

:tinfoilhat:

Is it all part of the conspiracy?

Politicians always want to be reelected. If he could get the public option he would. If he could not have "made the people excited" with his Messiah-ness he would have done that.

I don't have to be a cheerleader to not like irrational, crazy, conspiracists statements that they are all just in this big conspiracy against us. If you really think that, you're never going to be taken seriously on any political field.

[ima_sinnic]

119. well, since he didn't get the po, in fact didn't even try very hard to get it,

his reelection looks a little shaky, don't you think?

it wouldn't have hurt to, you know, be even a little supportive instead of having secret meetings with big pharma and giving Max Baucus the job of "dealing with" those whiny single-payer-advocating doctors and nurses who he lied to about "a seat at the table." Not to mention kissing Olympia Snowe's ass and being all "bipartisan" (code for, let repukes take over and then play dumb and "powerless" about it later) and everything.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. Let the opponents filibuster till they collapse from exhaustion

and then pass it. Preferably, all the Dems should leave the chamber so that the filibusterers are talking to an empty room.

[grantcart]

68. Senator Feingold is the holder of the secret on that one apparently

I thought Senator Conrad was just being a prick saying over and over again "we don't have 60 votes for a public option".

Possibly he listened to Joe.

[liberal_at_heart]

71. The majority of the American people want a public option

It is only the politicians who have been bought off by Corporate American that don't want a public option. If they can't put a public option in when that is what the public wants then they obviously are not representing their constituents and need to be voted out of office.

[EndElectoral]

76. Reconciliation

[leeroysphitz]

95. Well for starters the president could have used his "bully pulpit" to work for some of those votes.

Just a thought.

[valerief]

98. How did LBJ ever get Medicare passed? He GOT the votes. How? Probably played dirty. nt

[treestar]

105. Playing dirty is OK?

That would not be frowned on as corrupt?

[uppityperson]

108. oh picky picky picky

thank you, I am reading much of Du and shaking my head. Thank you.

[valerief]

109. It's corrupt now. It might as well work in our favor. nt

[whirlygigspin]

100. I see the $5/hr cheerleaders are back at work

yeah!

[treestar]

103. So are the $5 an hour conspiracy theorists

Trying to make the left look like a parody of what the right things of us. Wild eyed conspiracy theories about the corporatists secretly plotting against us and indications of disappointment that Obama is not a messiah after all.

[uppityperson]

106. Are those the dichotomous thinkers or the ones who see shades of grey?

Not sure which group you mean, please clarify

[JamesA1102]

107. If we all had just wished harder for it nt

[kenny blankenship]

110. From us. From the fact that most people 70-80% supported it and the majority still do

and the fact that we had a elected a very popular new President who said that was his plan.

But he didn't really want it as manifest in his refusal to insist on it or threaten Congress WITH US, the already pissed off electorate.

He's slick, he's smooth, but that's not enough.

[lamp_shade]

113. From the "Vote Fairy" silly... the Tooth Fairy's cousin.

[depakid]

120. We had the votes via reconciliation- anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar

Fact is the administration and the Senate majority "leader" sold us all down the river.

Fortunately though- from the looks of things, at least the latter won't be around to slither and pander after 2010.

[TorchTheWitch]

122. we could have

The problem from the beginning is that the ADMIN didn't care if there was a public option or not. All they cared about was passing a bill that was favorable enough for the insurance companies that the Dem party would receive millions in bribe money. And even though it's a bad bill that hurts more than it helps and gives the insurance companies virtually unlimited power they twisted the arms of any Dem that had an objection. This is ALL about getting huge insurance industry bribe money. That's all our government DOES anymore except now they do it boldly and blatantly. And no wonder... they no longer fear what the people think.

If Dems behaved like Dems we could have had universal single payer. The problem is that the Dems have long since been utterly hijacked by corporatists. What progressive Dems are left (if there actually are any) have zero power within the party. Same as whatever fiscally responsible Repubs may be left in the Repub party (and I'm quite sure they're all long since gone) have no power within that party.

Just how much more obvious does it need to be that big industry controls our government and the government (both parties) no longer care and are probably happy about it since they get to be personally enriched in obscene amounts and ways? We are and have had for some time a facsist government masquerading as a democracy.

[mmonk]

123. Better yet, explain why we don't.

[aikoaiko]

124. I had hoped that his leadership skills could have inspirted/motivated the votes.

But it just never really happened -- at least not publicly.

[mdmc]

125. courage

only courage