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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:18 AM
Original message
The Unconstitutionality and Ramifications of a Health Insurance Mandate
It is a noble goal to insure every American, however a mandate to buy health insurance and a fee or impost for noncompliance is unconstitutional at best.

I have read where this is similar to the mandate of purchasing car insurance and therefore is the same as mandating health insurance. And the obvious reply is that citizens can choose not to own a car.

In a Huffington Post article, author David Orentlicher (1) attempts to make the argument that a mandate for citizens to buy insurance can be justified by the Constitution’s taxing power and commerce clause power. The author cites Medicare, a tax-based mandate to purchase health insurance, as an example. The author states that this is a well-established precursor to permit the Senate bill to impose a tax or fee for those not conforming to the requirement of purchasing private goods and services.

The obvious flaw in his argument is that this is a tax on *all* wage earners to purchase federally administered health insurance that the payee will receive at the age of 65. Furthermore, the Commerce Clause is for the purpose of Regulating commerce. These are powers to implement rules and regulations on how a State and their businesses can conduct business. There is no link or power for Congress to force customers to engage in commerce or pay a tax for failure to do so.

Yesterday, Senator Baucus discussed the ‘legality’ of the insurance mandate by citing a paper written by Mark A. Hall (2) and used the same arguments as David Orentlicher. The Commerce clause it *regulate* businesses and commerce – not customers.

The key argument lies with Article 1 Section 8 – first paragraph. The phrase ‘…but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States’ prohibits Congress from targeting a group of people it deems necessary. If Congress imposes a tax, it must be fairly administered to all people of the United States. In a broad sense, it is like a Bill of Attainder – singling out a group of people not engaging in the purchasing of a business’s goods and services. It is unconstitutional.

And note that Article 1 Section 8 has the absolute and direct power to provide for the general Welfare and to impose taxes on all people to implement, for example, Medicare for Everyone.

The ramifications of this mandate to buy insurance are enormous and severe. Imagine Congress using this as precedence and forcing Americans now to buy life insurance, or a cell phone, or a personal ‘RFID locator’ for National Security reasons.

Another horrendous ramification is that it prevents people from protesting or boycotting a business or industry. Although it would be unwise from a health standpoint – we, as citizens of the US, could not cancel our insurance to solicit change and reform.

The Congress could also impose a requirement to buy insurance only from health insurance companies THEY approve of. This could prevent people from forming their own health insurance company – because they would not get ‘approval’.

It really is sinister what our Congress, the Senate, and President are doing to the American people. Their only allegiance is to their bribe money and their corporate masters.

They will continue this tyranny until ‘we the people’ stop it….if we can.






(1) Link to article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-orentlicher/an-individual-mandate-to_b_391810.html


(2) Link to Mr. Hall: http://www.healthreformwatch.com/2009/08/25/is-it-unconstitutional-to-mandate-health-insurance/


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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. it needs to be fought in the courts
mandated insurance is unconstitutional.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. I'd say you could join the Republicans in the effort
but even they know the courts will allow it to stand.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. it's the supporters of this bill that have done the GOPs bidding
I'm sure they're loving this.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. That's a pretty ridiculous statement.
Republicans votes a straight party line against this bill.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. is this your first exposure to the Kabuki theater that is Congress?
just curious.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. No, but it's obviously yours. n/t
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. well, no, not really
the GOP is going to come out smelling like a rose, all the while providing cover for the True Masters.

Insurance is a notoriously republican stronghold.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Wrong again
The Republicans went all in betting there would be no HCR bill at all.

This is going to be the biggest mistake they made since Iraq.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Not supporting mandates a mistake?
yeah, we'll see about that.
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. You'll be oh so disappointed
I predict we pick up 8 seats in the House and 2 in the Senate.

The Republicans will be scratching their heads and anybody they put up in 2012 will be a sacrificial lamb.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. okay, I'll keep that in mind
and we'll re-visit the issue at that point and see who was right. ;)
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
34. Ixion - Some people cannot be convinced.
To them this insurance giveaway is a wonderful thing.

Thanks for trying to wake them up.

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davidwestafa Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. So what?
Dems vote straight party line for it.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. I wonder what group will be the first to do it -- and whether there'll be an injunction
on this "corporate giving" - i.e., us giving to them -- provision, during the years this wends its way through court?
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
2. k&r for the truth, however depressing. n/t

Kill the bill.


Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
3. These are wonderful arguments
but if they were credible to the powers that be, they'd have been used against the military draft, as well. We still collect information on young men, which we use to determine if they are "worthy" of higher education aid.
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. Interesting point...however...
... there is direct Constitutional authority to maintain a military.
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customerserviceguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. We've proven for the last 35 years
that we can maintain a military without a draft. We haven't had one for the entire history of the country, only when our "leaders" decide that freedom really isn't that important of a principle.

You bring up a point, is there Constitutional authority to maintain healthcare in this country? I know it makes me sound like a right-winger to bring that point up, but even if there is (in some emanation of a penumbra), does it extend to making private insurance companies rich with personal and taxpayer dollars in the process of attempting to do so?
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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. We stop using the draft so people won't protest war...
Yes, there is a Constitutional authority for our government to provide health care.

"...to provide for the general Welfare' provides the power to provide health care to all and
to 'tax' uniformly throughout the US to pay for it.

And, the current 'privatization' of health insurance is exactly what our problem is...




Article 1 Section 8 first paragraph:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
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Gravel Democrat Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. James Madison says
If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.
James Madison, letter to Edmund Pendleton, January 21, 1792
http://www.marksquotes.com/Founding-Fathers/Madison/index2.htm

The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite.
James Madison, Federalist No. 45, January 26, 1788

and:
In the first place, it is to be remembered, that the general government is not to be charged with the whole power of making and administering laws: its jurisdiction is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any.
James Madison, Federalist No. 14, November 30, 1787

No political truth is certainly of greater intrinsic value, or is stamped with the authority of more enlightened patrons of liberty than that on which the objection is founded. The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.
James Madison, Federalist No. 48, February 1, 1788

The essence of Government is power; and power, lodged as it must be in human hands, will ever be liable to abuse.
James Madison, speech in the Virginia constitutional convention, Dec 2, 1829

There's lots of room under O's bus. Especially for dead presidents.

Our Constitution either means something or it doesn't.

You are free to choose which you prefer.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
4. It's an argument that
would need to be made before the SCOTUS. And who knows what the corporate leaners there would rule.
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dgibby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
6. Great post! A must read.
Edited on Mon Dec-21-09 11:26 AM by dgibby
This is a very slippery slope we now find ourselves on, and left unchecked, I fear we'll all end up falling off the cliff.

K&R!:kick:
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
12. The Constitution is already shredded so much with other legislation
its amazing there is even a scrap of it left.

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SnoopDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Agreed....our Congress feel empowered to violate the Constitution at will...nt
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
16. The Constitution doesn't matter.
The Courts will approve. It's just good for business.

Are you anti-business? :sarcasm:
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
20. k&r
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
23. The state has no right to force me to buy the product of a corporation.
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phasma ex machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. +1 K&R nt
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
24. Kicked and recommended.
Thanks for the thread, SnoopDog.:thumbsup:
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AzDar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
28. K & R
:kick:
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TornadoTN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
29. This deserves a kick again. Great article nt
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 01:33 AM
Response to Original message
30. k&r n/t
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
31. The penalty is a tax. If you buy health insurance, the tax is deducted.
Not unconstitutional.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 02:25 AM
Response to Original message
33. Yes it is sinister. And we have not been promised anything -
Edited on Tue Dec-22-09 02:26 AM by truedelphi
Just as the Bailout Giveaway to the Banks never resulted in the Obama-promised, "Gee these guys on Wall Street will be sure and lend to us Americans" loans to Main Street, so too the promise of real care being provided to Americans through the Big Insurer and Big Pharma interests remains equally elusive.

I hope I am wrong. But I defintely feel filled with a deep foreboding about this.
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ThePhilosopher04 Donating Member (435 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
35. Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!
We have a winner...the mandate is unenforceable and will not stand up to constitutional scrutiny when challenged...that's the reason why there's no jail time imposed, nor any real mechanism for collection in the fine print...the powers that be are hoping we're all dumb and play along like good little citizens.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
36. I'm just thinking over what "provide for the general welfare" might mean in regards to this
I would think it would include a mechanism for assuring access to health care to our citizens. But the authority here is for the government to provide for the general welfare, not to force the citizens to provide for the general welfare. If I might offer an opinion, it would give the government the authority to provide a system and a way for citizens to access it which would certainly cover the creation of Medicare and VA and Medicaid. But does it give them the authority to say, "Go talk to Blue Cross about it." If they negotiated a plan and pay schedule and had Blue Cross administer it, perhaps, but that' not what this does. I don't know the answer. Just mulling over some thoughts.
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