Hartmann was brilliant as usual today. His view - our "culture" is broken.

[NRaleighLiberal]

Everything else - the health care debate, the environment, the banking system, greed, all other problems are just the effects of the root of the problem - the human culture is at a crisis point, and it will take an unmitigated disaster to allow for something truly better to emerge.

It is pessimistic, it is scary - but after watching things the last 20-30 year or more, the genocide, greed, unpunished crimes going on all over the world - I think he is spot on.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. You bet he is indeed spot on

He was especially great with the conservatives today.

I love Thom. I listen on my way home from work and I look forward to him every day.

[ShamelessHussy]

54. he is a smart dude, hopefully there will be a clip in the video forum

and i hate to say it but that was the conclusion i had come to, too. right after chimpy got in again.

i am truly worried for my children, not that any parent doesn't already, but I used to think i could probably protect them from most harms that may come their way, but with all that is wrong right now, and looking at where the conventional 'wisdom' is bound and determined to take us (off a cliff) no matter how often they FUCK UP - yikes!

[CreekDog]

2. I hope he's wrong, but I kind of think he's right

perhaps I hold out hope that the degree of the problem is not quite as bad as he says.

[DJ13]

3. Divorce money from politics and things would improve

The corporations know its cheaper to make money by getting laws or exclusions from laws passed by bribing key Congress members than it is to develop new products and profit the old fashioned way.

That money pulls our government like a taffy puller stretches taffy, distorting our government and its original intent to benefit and protect the general populace.

[villager]

4. Did he offer any ideas about *how* the culture got broken?

I think he's right, btw - we've been headed for some kind of reckoning for at least as long as I've been around; not sure if previous generations felt that same sense of inevitability about it...

[AllentownJake]

8. My theory is the destruction on the community in America

People hop from corporation to corporation moving all over the country. No one settles down anymore because no matter what level of society you are in, there is no stability. If you aren't sure you are going to stay somewhere, you invest less into it. You are creating a class of corporate nomads.

Also the speed of communication and decision making. People are forced to make spare of the moment decisions without thinking about it.

It is better than life 150 years ago, but it is getting worse than life 50 years ago.

[ixion]

11. I agree... and the shredding of the social fabric

via things like the 'war' on drugs.

Humans are best when they're in a community. There isn't much of that around anymore.

[C_Lawyer09]

12. That was a damn prescient post, you nailed the bottom line

Many are being forced into a transient lifestyle that we don't want. Building communities and roots strengthens cities and states. There becomes a concerned nucleus that gives a darn. Show me an extremely transient city, and I'll show you litter like you've never seen. Meanwhile, Corporations falsely export themselves, shedding the burden of taxation, that none of us real john and josephines can. Geographically in the U.S. leveraging the hell out of all "the good" 100 years of public works has begotten. Where the heck is the corporate 100b plus in tax revenues we're missing. So disgusting, and who can say if messing with the tax code is even realistic at this point? We're having huge problems with the basics! Your post is so spot on, and I say this after talking to three people within the last two weeks that are roving wanderers chasing job prospects. Matter of fact I've come in contact with so many lately that are struggling, I anger myself when I start to bitch about my current challenges. Bravo!

[AllentownJake]

15. If you don't know your neighbors

You are going to care about them a lot less, let alone people who aren't your neighbors. We lived walled off lives, in our houses. We've created a fallout shelter from the world. It is really sad when you think about it. Parents, children, and grandchildren live 100s of miles apart. If you can't be close to your own flesh and blood, who can you be close to.

[omega minimo]

16. Subthread all holding different parts of the elephant

Hartmann educates frequently about the demise and brokenness of the nation and culture resulting from

30 YEARS OF REAGANISM -- that is the answer to the question. That is the cause. The other bits are symptoms.

And no, it was not "inevitable." It was foreseeable and preventable, so the other aspect of the cause being 30 YEARS OF REAGANISM is the American sheeple who went along with it.

At least in this thread, let's give credit where it's due. :hi:

[AllentownJake]

18. Well Bill Maher said it months ago

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5772841

[Hannah Bell]

42. transiency breaks human solidarity & human identity: the better to control you

the capitalist ideal = a global workforce of isolated monads who'll buy stuff to bolster their weak, fluid "identities"

[The2ndWheel]

47. Plus your job can probably be done

by anyone, anywhere, around the planet. It's not just the country. Human society is increasingly placeless. A good example is one thing you mentioned, communication. It doesn't matter where you are, where I am, who you are, who I am, it's all the same font and type on a screen. It doesn't even matter what you are, as in a human being, because your job can probably be done by a machine(operated by fewer and fewer people).

You, as an individual, aren't needed as much. The job can be done without you, whatever that job is. You're probably interchangeable, and probably easily replaced.

[CrispyQ]

49. I think this is a spot on assessment of the main problem - the breakdown of community.

I see it every day on my morning walks. Most of the people I pass don't even look at me. I always say hi, & then some will at least mutter a return greeting, but many ignore that as well. We have new neighbors across the street - a young couple who bought the house from our old neighbors of many, many years. When we go out front, or are returning home & they are out, they both deliberately turn away so as to not have to see us & acknowledge us. WTF? In the year they have lived there, they have never waved or acknowledged us in any way. I'm not asking for an invite to dinner, but a simple wave or nod of the head is too much to grant your neighbors?

Like Michael Moore said, we are a nation of me, not we.

[SharonAnn]

55. People hop from corporation to corporation because the corporations force them too.

First, corporations had no loyalty to their workers. Thus, when workers realized it, workers looked for the best option for themselves.

Or, the corporations laid them off and the workers had to find a job elsewhere.

The absolute, first cause is the corporations. And they're the second, and the third, and ...

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Some of our previous generations felt this way indeed

the feeling is not new. Messianic religions have this as part of its core values.

The difference is that humanity now has the capacity to actually bring the end of the species in about fifteen minutes flat, with a full nuclear exchange for example. We are also in the midst of the Holocene extinction, and apex species do not survive mass extinctions... generally speaking.

[undeterred]

22. Individualism gone rampant.

[The2ndWheel]

48. What makes rampant individualism possible?

Cheap energy. Without cheap energy, we actually need each other.

[sandnsea]

5. Change Minds, Change Votes

He's absolutely right. Are we going to organize a campaign to go into the most rural areas of the country and challenge their "culture"?

[AllentownJake]

6. Christians are cheering war and the wealthy elite

Enough said.

[90-percent]

7. Institutions

All our institutions seems to be failing us...SIMULTANEOUSLY.

Banks

Wall Street

Politicians

Health Care

Big Corporations

This is taxation without representation, plain and simple.

Our institutions used to be wise and benevolent umpires. Now it's whoever buys the most power wins, public be damned.

All our institutions seems to have been taken completely over by sociopaths, who are more than a little greedy.

It's no longer the greatest good for the greatest number. It's all the good for the power elite and everybody else can go screw.

-90% jimmy

[AllentownJake]

9. Add religous

A lot of people on DU are atheist but institutions of faith have been up to no good as well.

[cali]

10. hardly an original thought

my father used to go on and on in this vein and boy with his background, he could go on.

[omega minimo]

13. see you made your big pronouncement

today about how "people can disagree," but with you it always comes with a putdown, Cali. First post I've seen of yours since that one -- and I gave you the benefit of the doubt to mean DISAGREE WITH ALWAYS BEING OBNOXIOUS ABOUT IT -- and here you are with a snide remark.

:thumbsdown:

[cali]

37. uh, there was no knock against anyone in my post.

yours however is another story.

you really need help. I'm not being snide either.

[omega minimo]

50. "Hardly an original thought"

IS SNIDE.:freak:

[Frosty1]

14. I have the letters that my Great Great Grandfather wrote home

during the Civil War.

It was interesting to read his views on how badly greed had corrupted society, That was 145 years ago it hasn't changed much has it?

[omega minimo]

17. During the Civil War they were fighting over civil liberties? We've let ours be eviscerated.

That's changed. :think:

[AllentownJake]

20. The war profiteering in the north was out of control and legendary

So much so that FDR publicly stated he did not want to create one millionaire from the war effort.

[omega minimo]

25. And?

[AllentownJake]

28. There was a letter about human greed during the civil war

I can see how that would be written when people were out making themselves rich over human misery.

[omega minimo]

29. Ironic

"making themselves rich over human misery" while fighting about "making themselves rich over human misery."

[AllentownJake]

30. They were fighting over states leaving the Union

Abe Lincoln would have compromised on slavery in a minute if they stuck around. He was quite the pragmatist. Leaving the Union was his line in the sand.

[omega minimo]

33. Are you trying to have an argument?

:shrug: They were leaving over the issue of slavery and yes I know there were other business factors involved.

[AllentownJake]

34. Abe Lincoln said if it would have avoided the war

He would not have freed one slave. I think that statement by Lincoln on his greatest contribution to modern society speaks for itself.

[omega minimo]

35. oh with yourself, apparently

[AllentownJake]

36. FDR didn't declare war on Germany to stop the Holocaust or on Japan to stop their War Crimes

I'm glad he beat the fucking Nazis and the Empire of Japan though.

[Frosty1]

32. It's not quite that simple

There were other reasons for the war besides slavery. Control of the federal government was another.

Lincoln needed to find an issue that would unite a large but divided North to save the Union, and then found that circumstances beyond his control made emancipation possible, which was in line with his "personal wish that all men everywhere could be free"

For those who want the short and simple version of the war, the simple English version is at Simple English version of the American Civil War.

[omega minimo]

19. Time to regroup

on all levels.

[Blasphemer]

23. K&R. Sad, but true... nt

[libertyvalence]

24. PISSED OFF AT WHO?

12/21/09
I'd like to let myself get pissed off but it is not clear who to get
pissed off at. Obama got in, he played the political game. I thought that the
rhetoric of change was more important than the equivocating statements he
made for example; on Afghanistan. How horrible has that turned out? I thought
he would seek support from his base, unh uh. He went to the power brokers
for a safe place to hide (for now). The HCR bill is a dissappointment, get
pissed off, right?
I hope he's a fast learner. What the hell is he going to say to us in
2012? "I'm going to dump Hillary, Bill Gates, Geitner and Rahm"? That would
get my attention, depending on his new picks. That would tell the story if he
is ready to govern and to lead. It doesn't look that way right now. So far,
the cost of that education, like any education is steep.
FDR knew what not to do because he had governed New York State, a
conservative state, and came from the class that had caused the depression. He
didn't necessarily know what to do. He tried a lot of things, some worked and
some didn't. What did Obama come from? What is in it for him to sell out?
We can fulminate all we want but none of us can predict the future
and it is important for progressives to learn how to wait, see realty (even if
it looks like shit) and choose your battles and alliances as they present
themselves. There is more at stake than health care. This bill is a pile of
crap but the progressive movement is real and we can't let that become a pile
of crap. Getting pissed off only leads to falling for conservative booby
traps.
When dad let me use the car, there were strings attached. It's the
same now with Obama. He is cautious and careful, even timid by nature, just
like dad. That doesn't make him a conservative. Almost everybody is the same
way, Republicans want people to believe that it means people, in general,
are conservative politically. Not so.
Obama made deals behind our backs. Just like dad. Obama is winging
it. Just like dad. We thought that Obama knew what he was doing and we thought
that dad knew what he was doing. Not so, well, we're on to him now.
Getting mad at dad was because I thought I had a right to, that my
anger was justified and that he had to respond. Guess what kids, de ja vu all
over again.
It's not like we don't know what to look for. This is a slow fight,
there isn't an Ali rope-a-dope to spot. If he has gone over to the dark side,
then he's in the place that he belongs but if he hasn't gone over, he in a
dangerous place. That's not politics, that's a war with the conservatives
who have been itching to re-establish feudalism since the end of
reconstruction.
Yes, these are people. Stupid, ignorant, crippled of heart and soul,
pig shit stubborn and incapable of honest self-examination. Does that help
bubbe? I realize that I’m being too generous, but this is the holiday season.
You have to be smart with these assholes. I trust you to figure this
out as it unfolds. Right now, the fight for social justice is being played
out in mock politics but you ain't seen nasty yet.
Only the tea baggers know who they're pissed at with absolute certainty
and righteous indignation, subsidized by the health insurance companies
through front organizations. Real grassroots? NOT. When the subsidies stop and
they have to spend their own money for bus trips and food, how are they
going to pay for ammo also?
If watching them has any lesson to hold, it is that their commitments
are only as thick as their wallets and not to imitate them in any way.
That's my take.
Yes, these are people. Stupid, ignorant, crippled of heart and soul, 
pig shit stubborn and incapable of honest self-examination. Does that help 
bubbe? I realize that I’m being too generous, but this is the holiday season. 
Right now, the fight for social justice is being played 
out in mock politics but you ain't seen nasty yet. Conservatives have been itching to re-establish feudalism since the end of reconstruction.

[Cleita]

26. Thom is a national treasure.

I hope he's with us for many years to come. He and Rachel Maddow more than anyone else shine a bright light on all the abuses going on in our system.

[Goldstein1984]

27. "The culture" barely exists anymore

We have as many subcultures as we have special interest groups.

Can you imagine what a mess a Constitutional Convention would be if held today?

Maybe it is true that all systems carry within them the seeds of their own destruction.

Capitalism is based on greed; greed is self-interest.

How can you build a culture on self-interest?

[miyazaki]

38. good points, this tenacity of greed.

the scientist Carl Sagan would always seem to have an addendum about mankind destroying itself, which
lately more and more I am reminded of on a regular basis.

[live love laugh]

31. He's wrong. It's all Obama's fault.

:sarcasm:

[JDPriestly]

39. He is brilliant and absolutely right about the fact that our culture is broken.

It's a terrible shame but our culture is broken.

[jasi2006]

40. One has only to look at the behvior of drivers on the roads.

This will tell you just how broken our culture is. It is really, really broken badly. Blinkers on...it doesn't matter no one will let you in. Blinkers not on...just dart in front of someone and make them slam on brakes. It is pitiful. I remember when drivers were kinder. Road rage is on the rise. Is it because we have let too many EU folks in our country with their airs of superiority? The folks I see acting really ugly are not Hatians or Jamaicans ... :sarcasm: Who is to blame. Art there too many rich folks driving around these days with their airs of superiority? Too many SUVs? Too many Lexus getting stuck on the road? Yea...our culture is really broken and I don't think it will ever get fixed. It has to be Clinton's fault.

[Greyhound]

41. We're building up to it.

It's really become a self-fulfilling prophesy, if some great natural disaster doesn't come along to spark it off, we'll make one our selves. We're creating enemies at an alarming rate.

[The Backlash Cometh]

43. It really is.

When the court system (lawyers and judges) are in collusion with the business sector which gets elected to office -- we are done.

[AndrewP]

44. Hartmann is brilliant

[madfloridian]

45. How can we hear or see his show?

On XM we don't get it until 8 pm. I went to the AAR site and he is not there at this time either.

I went to his site, but nothing opens for viewing or hearing??

[Sebastian Doyle]

53. Bookmark this link - (The only radio link you will ever need)

http://radiotime.com/channel/c_57925/Progressive.aspx

If you click on that at 9AM Pacific/Noon Eastern you will find a number of streams that carry Thom's show live.

There are also some stations (like XM) who air his show delayed, if the above time doesn't work for you.

[backscatter712]

46. David Sirota mentioned something along the same lines today.

He said that in the past decade, since 9/11, in the Bush years, because of the fear, the greed, the systemic problems in the U.S., we've become "a nation of assholes" (OK, he used a word that wouldn't get him fined by the FCC, but he made his point clear.) We live in a culture where it's virtually expected that we look out for ourselves first, and where it's acceptable for people to be incredibly nasty to each other.

[Odin2005]

51. British historian A. J. Toynbee described this phenomenon 70 years ago.

In his famous historical work A Study of History he describes a social group in a disintegrating civilization he calls an "internal proletariat", which he characterized as the demoralized and usually economically-repressed majority in a disintegrating civilization that feel dispossessed of a natural feeling of community that is perceived as a birthright and is resentful of parasitic elites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Study_of_History

"First the Dominant Minority attempts to hold by force—against all right and reason—a position of inherited privilege which it has ceased to merit; and then the Proletariat repays injustice with resentment, fear with hate, and violence with violence when it executes its acts of secession. Yet the whole movement ends in positive acts of creation—and this on the part of all the actors in the tragedy of disintegration. The Dominant Minority creates a universal state, the Internal Proletariat a universal church, and the External Proletariat a bevy of barbarian war-bands."

[rucky]

52. We've always been a destructive species.

We're just getting better at it.