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Windy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 07:52 PM
Original message
Post on Kos: Jane Hamsher convinced me...pass the bill
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/21/817668/-Jane-Hamsher-convinced-me:-Pass-The-Bill!

Update: Ooh, I forgot to put this up first. My bad, Jane. I pay myself. I'm a freelance web designer who's having a lot of trouble paying for my insurance.

None other than Jane Hamsher has convinced me that the Senate health care bill is, in fact, better than the status quo. I know, what? Jane Hamsher? Isn't she the FDL warrior fighting against this Senate bill? Yes, yes she is. But she gave me some particular pieces of information that I was very impressed by.

I got an email from her this morning excoriating the vices of the current Senate bill. Don't get me wrong, I think the bill is full of vices. It's also on the FDL website with a petition. And it convinced me that this bill must pass and is much, much, much better than the status quo.

She argues that the bill:

deaniac83's diary :: :: Forces you to pay up to 8% of your income to private insurance corporations -- whether you want to or not

What? Really? 8%? That's incredible! If American families could get health insurance for only 8% of their income, you could bet a lot more of us would have it. In 2008, the average family premium for health insurance was $12,298. In 2003, the median income of a family of 4 was $67,019. So, umm... a typical family of 4, in the status quo is paying, let's see, over 18% of their income in health insurance premiums. Put it another way, a typical family of four would see their premiums reduced from $12,298 under the status quo to $5361.52. And remember that incomes over about $66,000 a year are not provided premium subsidies by the government, and still cannot be charged more than 8% by law - indicating a real and overall significant reduction of premiums going to insurance companies. Wow. This is fantastic!

Oh and by the way, the 8% cap is also an improvement over the House bill, which has a cap of 12% on premiums. It is also improved from the previous senate version, which had a 9.8% cap (link). This is real insurance reform.

If you refuse to buy the insurance, you'll have to pay penalties of up to 2% of your annual income to the IRS

Yes, yes you will. That is, if your premiums aren't entirely covered by subsidies. Let's see. If you have the means to, but refuse to purchase insurance (these are the only people subject to this penalty, since there is a hardship exemption), you are going to use emergency rooms as your primary health care center. And we, as taxpayers, will be paying for you. Don't you think it's fair for you to pay a little bit in so that when you do come to the emergency room, they are not all closed down?

After being forced to pay thousands in premiums for junk insurance, you can still be on the hook for up to $11,900 a year in out-of-pocket medical expenses.

Where is she getting this $11,900 number? Out of pocket expense cap? If that's where she is getting it, I would like to compare this to the out of pocket expenses under the status quo. There are no caps. You can have a "deductible" per incident of $1000 or more. If you have "good" insurance, maybe your insurance covers 80% of your hospital care up to 30 days every year. That's the status quo. Under the senate bill, it caps your out-of-pocket expenses. That's supposed to be worse than the status quo? I'm at a loss over here.

Jane is also a little misleading. The Senate bill's out-of-pocket cap of $11,900 is on a family plan. An individual plan would have a $5,950 cap. What's more, not everyone would be subject to this high cap. The cap is actually 10% of one's income, and no more than the dollar amounts capped.

So in simple terms - the Senate bill is limiting the total amount of health care expenses to 18% of your income - whereas it is more than that for simply your premiums today, and all your out-of-pocket expenses (may include your home) is extra. If someone wants me to believe that this is not progress, I am going to need to see the dictionary definition of progress changed first.

Massive restriction on a woman's right to choose, designed to trigger a challenge to Roe v. Wade in the Supreme Court

Just when she was about to get one right, she screws up. Yes, the bill places disgusting restrictions on a woman's right to choose. That's deplorable. But it is not, in any way, shape or form, designed to "trigger a challenge to Roe v. Wade." That's insane. Roe makes abortions legal, and nothing more. The Supreme Court has always been regrettably deferential to Congress and legislatures about whether public dollars may fund, or contribute to any plans that fund, abortion services. That's stupid and it's nuts, but to say that this bill is set up to challenge Roe is nonsense.

Paid for by taxes on the middle class insurance plan you have right now through your employer, causing them to cut back benefits and increase co-pays

Yes, because your employer isn't already cutting back your benefits and increasing your co-pays. And middle class insurance plans? The so-called Cadillac tax applies to individual plans costing over $8500 (and only to the amount over $8500) and family plans costing over $23,000 (and only to the amount over $23,000). It's a steep 40% tax, and I would rather not have it, but it is not by far what most health insurance premiums cost.

Many of the taxes to pay for the bill start now, but most Americans won't see any benefits -- like an end to discrimination against those with preexisting conditions -- until 2014 when the program begins.

This is a right wing talking point, and dead wrong. Several progressives have pointed out the benefits of the bill that begin immediately upon the drying of the presidential ink such as ending of denial of coverage based on pre-existing condition, small business tax credits for providing insurance, the ending of the most annual and lifetime benefit caps (it ends completely in 2013), etc. Here's Al Franken taking down Republican John Thune on this:


Allows insurance companies to charge people who are older 300% more than others

Finally, something she gets completely right. 7th point out of 10. Bravo.

Grants monopolies to to drug companies that will keep generic versions of expensive biotech drugs from ever coming to market.

And which bill would have allowed this, Jane? The House bill does not have a re-importation clause nor a quicker way to bring generics to the market.

No reimportation of prescription drugs, which would save consumers $100 billion over 10 years

Ding ding! Correct, but see above. The House bill doesn't do it either. It's not like Jane would be falling over everyone to pass this bill if a simple reimportation clause was included. By the way, the Dorgan amendment, which I support vigorously, got a vote in the Senate. Sadly, it was defeated.

The cost of medical care will continue to rise, and insurance premiums for a family of 4 will rise an average of $1000 a year -- meaning in 10 years, you family's insurance premium will be $10,000 more annually than it is right now.

This is sheer baloney. First she argues that the out-of-pocket caps and the premium caps aren't strong enough, and then now she seems to be saying there aren't any caps at all! Your premium expenses are capped at 8% of your income, which is too high, but your premium will also go up by $10,000 even if your income doesn't rise comparatively. $10,000 is 8% of $125,000, i.e. for your health insurance premiums to rise by $10K, your income would have to rise by $125,000 under the Senate bill. She can't have it both ways. There can't both be a 8% "too-high" cap on premiums, and your premium go up $10K over 10 years.


(More at link...great post...please read!)
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BP2 Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ok, so we're supposed to be jumping for joy that


Senate didn't add in the measure for drug reimportation that the Senate took out?

Or should we be jumping for joy of no policy price caps or Public Option?

Compromise is one thing. But this isn't compromise. It's a travesty.

Sorry. Didn't change my mind to kill the bill.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well... good luck with that. Here, you'll need this:
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. I really wish I had been
born in France.

The bill sucks.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. She seems to have a lot of faith in the insurance industry.
Edited on Mon Dec-21-09 08:29 PM by girl gone mad
Even I'm smart enough to realize that caps can easily be raised.

Also, she seems to have a lot of personal hatred toward Jane Hamsher. It's off putting
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 03:26 AM
Response to Original message
5. Not good enough! The proper "progressive" position is that..
everything from heart transplants to Band-Aids be free and immediately available to everyone who needs, or demands, them.

All medicines advertised on TV be immediately sold as generics at 50% below the cost of production.

All health insurance companies be immediately liquidated and the money to pay for this universal health care come from the liquidation of their assets (less the cost of dealing with the resultant unemployment spike), current Medicare taxes, pots of gold stolen from foul-tempered leprechauns, and stores of fairy dust hidden under lotus blossoms.

No law be passed unless personally endorsed, and preferably written, by Kucinich, Dean, and a coterie of liberal bloggers.

BTW, the "moderate" position is that this bill may suck, but it's the best one actually in danger of passing in the history of the country, so go for it.may

(The "conservative" position is that everyone who can't pay should die.)





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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Really? That's what you think is the progressive position
It sounds more like the hyperbole from the right.

But in case you're not just being an apologist for a bad bill. Nothing is free and I have yet to meet a progressive who ever thought it was. I am familiar with the talking point from the DLC and the Right though, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you're just uninformed.

The only thing you got right was the elimination of the For Profit Corps from our health care system. They are failures, criminally negligent at the very least having allowed over 400,000 Americans die for profit over the past ten years. They were entrusted with what should have been viewed as a sacred trust, and they abused it and enriched themselves at the expense of people's health.

Rewarding such failure is becoming a habit in this country. And that's what this bill does.

But aside from all that, the Insurance Industry is a burden on our health care system. They absorb one third of the money that ought to be going to health care. They are draining the funds that people pay for care. They provide no service that cannot be provided for one tenth of the cost by government programs already in place.

Every other country has figured out how to provide Universal Health Care for their citizens and the very notion of making such a vital need, 'for profit' would probably cause the overturn of any government that tried it, and rightly so.

Americans have been conned into this system and to watch people actually try to defend what is against their own interests, is just tragic.

Next time you speak for progressives, ask them first what they support. You really don't know how a Universal Healthcare system would be paid for? Hard to believe. No wonder you think it would have to be free.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
6. The operatives have been called in to save
everyone from Jane Hamsher's opinion.

I read that diary and decided that that guy doesn't know what he's talking about. He's wrong eg, on the 8% cap, not to mention he conveniently left out the worst part for those forced to buy the cheapo insurance. He forgot all about the copays. That's what will make it impossible for them to use these policies they will be forced to buy.

This always happens on that site. When progressives are angry, the DLC sends in the troops.

Keep up the good work, Jane. At least she tried to do something to prevent this giveaway to the very people who caused the problems, who let people die for profit. So, I applaud her efforts.

This bill is immoral. Our whole health care bill is immoral. Jane Hamsher is right. I'm sure there will be diary, at least I hope there is, correcting the misinformation that diary.
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Wardoc Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-22-09 04:15 AM
Response to Original message
8. I hate smarmy people who claim to one-up someone by arguing they make the opposite case. BS!!!
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