Don't tell me how to feel!

[Are_grits_groceries]

Whether it is health care reform, the continued war in the Middle East or a belief in Santa Claus, please don't tell me how to feel.

My feelings about such issues are grounded in my personal experiences, my research and thoughts about such matters, and other sometimes complex matters. Sometimes my conclusions may not seem logical. That may be because they are all bound up by both visceral and rational reactions. Those 2 are not easily separated if they even can be.

I may agree with HCR on some level, and on another be very much opposed to it. Trying to sort all of this out to come to a conclusion on one side of an issue isn't easy. It isn't made any easier when I post something on DU and find myself attacked because of my ideas. A lot of times, the ideas aren't discussed in anything approaching a reasonable manner. The most disheartening part is being called names because of my reactions.

When I battle back and forth about my ideas here, it can help me to clarify what I think. I begin to see my positions a little clearer and may modify them or find that I am more strongly in favor of something than before.

What doesn't help are the people who delight in landing and throwing deliberately insulting and inflammatory posts about those ideas and me. I'm sure someone will do that to this OP. They are trying to disengage any discussion and turn everything into a heated exchange that flies off-topic and into many subthreads. It's not easy not to fall into the trap when a certain button is pushed. I myself am guilty at times of dong this. I try not to, but I know I have.

However, I try to remember that whatever someone is posting may be bound up in something that they have personally gone through. Their feelings have some validity and shouldn't be summarily dismissed. I would venture that the flamethrowers are bound up in some reason to turn everything into a chaotic mess.

I still post here, and I find it a very valuable place to be. Don't tell me how to feel about it either.

[ixion]

1. hang in there with us, grits

you're one of the folks who make this board great! :hi:

[Are_grits_groceries]

2. Thanks.

I will. I live in SC so I'm used to the insults and I'm ready to throw down at a moment's notice. :hi:

[Egnever]

3. Ok!

I think its great posting here helps you sort things out! And if I ever insult ya try not to take it personaly cause things get heated in here at times and I dont mind rolling in the mud at all.

[Are_grits_groceries]

7. I can mudroll with the best of them.

I have a Phd in snark. I also learned from the experts - 9th graders. They can name call with precision and force. I've watched them turn 'hello' into a complete mess in 5 seconds flat.

[Jamastiene]

11. Those sound like 9th grade future Democats to me.

We should challenge them on DU and see who wins.

:P

:hide:

[Are_grits_groceries]

14. LOL!

My money is on them. However, DU can keep up.:hi:

[Little Star]

4. k&r

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. Can we try to persuade you to feel differently?

That is the ONE of the more useful functions of discussion, after all (and this IS a discussion board, last I checked). Or do you just want your existing feelings validated? That's also one function of discussion, I guess, though it strikes me a particularly fruitless one (if unfortunately too common).

[Are_grits_groceries]

6. Of course.

That's not the point of my post. People don't argue the merits of a policy or position. They start off with some name or stating that something is ridiculous. Then they proceed to bomb away as if that will help.

I have had interesting discussions and even heated ones that didn't devolve into a mess. They just didn't get personal and assume what I said had no merit.

If I wanted my feelings validated, I'd set up a discussion board for myself only. I said in my post that at times I modified my positions. Other times I haven't.

I don't want to play the dozens.

[alcibiades_mystery]

13. There's no doub that the one key problem here

is the almost total inability of partisans on many sides (notice I didn't say "both sides") to grok the notion that reasonable people can disagree. The second (and derivative) problem is, as you say, that once that first hurdle fails to be cleared, the path has nothing to offer but name-calling and recrimination. Of course, simply because reasonable people CAN disagree doesn't mean that we collapse into relativism. People can disagree, but some positions are still wrong.

[Are_grits_groceries]

17. Oh, I do think some things are just flat wrong.

I won't waste my time engaging in a debate especially if I have been over plowed ground with certain people.

My brother and I have been over some issues so many times that one look from me is enough to say 'You are an idiot.' His glance back says 'You're a bigger' one. The bigger issue is to try to find some common ground so that we don't fly away into a completely separate orbit, and never have contact again. Or if we do have contact, it is far too late to reach each other on any item.

[Mithreal]

8. K&R

[Are_grits_groceries]

9. It's not just DU BTW.

There are plenty of people telling others that they have no reason to feel the way they do about HCR. The arguments range from 'look at the good things in the bill' to 'Obama always had these positions.'

People have every right to feel opposed to this bill for other valid reasons. Others are trying to discredit them in order to discredit their ideas. Today I read where John Harwood says that liberals must be on hallucenigenic drugs to feel the way they do about the HCR bill.

That's the bomb thrown right there. It insults people with a different position and at the same instant disses their ideas. 'Hallucenigenic drugs????' My instinct is to flame him, but I'm better off ignoring that type of statement, and sticking to my reasoned ideas.

IT IS SELF-DEFEATING TO TAKE THIS APPROACH!

A lot of people who may not like the bill are working through their opposition, and they may decide to side with it. However, as they work through their anger, disgust, etc., what does the name-calling and dismissiveness do? It makes people mad and gets their backs up. Then they will start the cycle of trying to reason through everything all over again.

Why do people assume that someone is going to do a 180 in 24 hours or even a week? If they fear criticism will damage the prospects of the bill, it is too feeble to live anyway.

[blondeatlast]

25. As in the primaries, I am undecided--and I have a LOT of emotional investment

in the issue (lifetuime insulin dependent diabetic surviving on my ex-husband's COBRA bennies).

I'm even afraid to ask any questions. If I say that I'm grateful for ANY progress, I get name-called. If I say I'm concerned about something, I'm disloyeal.

Of course, I'm neither.

I'm confused as hell, and gaining no clarity from reading DU.

[Jamastiene]

10. You are right, imho.

I enjoy a good flame war as much as the next Democrat. It's what we do best sometimes. In some cases, it can relieve stress and give lots of people a chance to use humor to douse the flame war into a fun thread. I've seen that happen and it is a beautiful thing when it does happen.

It keeps us feisty. Who doesn't WANT to be feisty when it counts?

In a way, it is like brothers and sisters fighting. We might fight amongst ourselves and really go at it like we are killing each other, but heaven help a Republican who tries to mess with us. That's when we close ranks and fight together against whatever extremely offensive thing the Republican has said or done. That can be a positive thing. For reference, the thread about what Senator McCain said about Senator Kennedy or any of the threads about what happened when Senator Byrd was on his way to the Senate the other night and some Republican wanted to pray for horrible things to happen to "his enemies." On that thread, I'm sure we all agreed that was horrendous.

There are parts of this bill we all agree are horrible, but until we start to digest the breadth and scope of everything in the bill as it affects each of us personally, some civilized conversation without name calling would be more helpful to everyone around.

I'm not saying don't let people vent. If it was my decision, everyone should be allowed to vent and really point out the good, the bad, and the ugly and duke it out until everyone gets tired and starts just talking to each other. That's when things actually start to get better. That's when we get stronger.

Each of us has to come to terms with this on our own. As we learn more, we know what ticks us off and what may be good. But, instead of fighting too much (although I, personally, like some fighting :evilgrin: ), we should have some conversations and share information as soon as that information is verified.

There has been some spin and some articles that are misleading and there have been some informative pieces of information. Until each of us reconciles the awful anti-choice amendments with the rest of the bills, we need to be allowed to think at our own pace and learn and understand at our own pace.

For me, sometimes sleeping on any new piece of information I learn can help me come to a better conclusion of what my opinion is. It certainly works better than being called a FReeper ever will. That might not be the same for everybody, but we do each come to our conclusions as we face this thing.

I don't even know if you and I agree on this thing, and to be honest, at this point, it doesn't matter. It's a done deal for the most part. All we can do now is write, call, and/or email everyone in the Senate and try to get the message across to stop monkeying around with Roe V. Wade and start explaining to us some of this immense change that's being thrown at us.

So, now I'm just going to try to figure out what is going on. You may know way more than I do or we may complement each other in what we understand so far.

I'm one of the uninsured who hasn't been insured since I was 18 years old. That's 21 years of my life with no health insurance. No Medicaid, no Medicare, no supplemental health help or anything.

I'm what is called Self-Pay here in my area. It means I take the check card (or cash, that green stuff, ya know) and fork it over to the doctor, hospital, or dentist after they get done checking me out and renewing my prescriptions. It's big drain on my already woefully inadequate budget.

Will this new piece of legislation help me? Right now, I don't know. I did find this calculator, although I cannot tell for sure if it is 100% accurate. http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx

If this calculator is the real deal, rough estimate, checking tool to see where I stand, it will depend on if Medicaid eligibility is standardized instead of varying wildly and horribly from state to state, as it is currently. If the states are still allowed to set their own requirements as to who can receive Medicaid, I am so fucked.

According to my personal information that I entered into the calculator, in both the House bill and the Senate bill, it said Medicaid was my Subsidy plan, payment, premium, all the way down the list.

So, if North Carolina doesn't want to offer Medicaid to people below the poverty line who have no children (which is how NC has it right now), I have a ton of questions to ask about that. Most importantly, what the fuck do I do now? Geez, this is the one time, I'd kinda hate to be the 4% that isn't included, especially if it means I almost got my hopes up for nothing. I'd rather be pleasantly surprised instead of dismally disappointed.

From some reading I have done this morning, I learned a couple in Alabama with kids, cannot get Medicaid if they make more than approximately $2400 per year. :wow: That is horrible.

I knew some people on DU were claiming that just being poor would make you eligible for Medicaid. I also knew that wasn't true for North Carolina, where I live. Been there, tried that, tough shit, no dice, not happening. What I did not know was that there is a real disparity from state to state and in some states, it's damn near impossible.

For me, if NC is still allowed to keep the same Medicaid eligibility requirements, and if that calculator is correct, and I still have a mandate I am forced to go on, who the fuck is going to be my date on this little excursion into uncharted waters. He'd better have a damn good tackle box, cause I ain't going on no date with a man unless he'll take me fishing, dammit...and to be honest, I'd rather have a womandate. (bad bad bad attempt at humor, I'm sorry)

Sorry this is so long, but, I do agree that we should each be allowed to think this through and come to our own understanding of it and see what they throw at us.

One thing I do know about the Democratic Party: we don't like to be forced to do anything. And we don't like shit shoved down our throats by high pitched salesmen who are trying to beat us over the head with a club to sell us something. We don't like threats and intimidation. We've just had 8 years of that and don't want any more. All fulled up, we don't need any more of that. We are a freedom loving people and we don't intend to change now. Give us some time to think, already.

[Are_grits_groceries]

15. I don't mind the length.

Things to think about. I just get over the continual name calling and such. It happens with disturbing regularity.

[bigwillq]

12. K and R (nt)

[chimpymustgo]

16. We have to keep talking - and sorting through - and fighting.

[Are_grits_groceries]

18. True.

However, some things will stop a useful debate or fight in a heartbeat. It gets waylaid into useless name-calling and irrational posts.

[LynneSin]

20. And how do you do that on a website where, in a nutshell, we are anonymous

We're dealing with armchair quarterbacks who all think they could have played the game better than those on the field. Hell even I get like that. It just gets frustrating.

[LynneSin]

19. I want you to know I have really enjoyed many of your recent posts

You seem a bit like me - you see the both the benefits and the disappointments in what has happened in the healthcare legislation.

It's rare I post in GD these days. I came here to spend time and meet democrats but hell, now people try to shame me because I still support Obama and I'm not going to jump on the 82million threads that trash him - not criticize but just one sentence trash threads.

Time to go back to the lounge. Lately it seems to be less bullshit. Perhaps it's a wakeup call to get more involved again locally because my goal always has been and always will be to get more democrats elected.

[Are_grits_groceries]

21. Thanks!

I can be just as irrational as the next person.

I try not to be, but my cats are somewhat used to my yelling at the monitor or teevee screen.

[KittyWampus]

22. Okay, I won't. But we can still argue can't we?

[Are_grits_groceries]

23. I count on it! nt

[Blue Owl]

24. Damn straight!

+1

[jotsy]

26. Once had a friend that was fond of saying 'people don't like you if you're too proud or too free'.

I've come to believe it's more often the case than not. I've only been a DUer for six months or so and feel pretty new here but have been in a couple of threads that went a little volatile. I'm never sure whether I should discount those folks as less than genuine or whether its my own notion that needs checking. There's been a recent discussion here at DU about intellectually dishonest debate tactics and their tale tell signs.

Many good voices of reason here, yours, imo, is one. Thanx for the way you see things and your ability to convey that in such a compelling fashion.