If they pull off this corporate control over health care, SS and Medicare will be next...

[defendandprotect]

Everyone has to understand that --

If you're willing to go along with this DEFORM which cements corporatism/fascism

into health care, then you better expect the same treatment for Social Security and

Medicare --

Wake up, folks!!

[babylonsister]

1. Bullhockey. Prove it. nt

[ixion]

4. it remains to be seen, but

history is on the side of the corporate/fascism paradox.

[cali]

10. I think you mean paradigm not paradox

and actually, if what you claim is true, there would be no income tax or social security or medicare or medicaid. it's a war with corporatism winning too often, but they haven't won every battle.

[ixion]

22. I meant paradox, actually

paradigm would give more credibility to the police state, which is a state counter-intuitive to our survival, hence the use of paradox.

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

14. Eh . . . What was Bush doing in trying to move SS $$ to Wall Street . . .???

Everyone here have such short memories that they can't remember Bush leading the

way with Town Hall "meeting" to privatize Social Security ????

Wow --

The desire to delude yourself is alarming!!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

17. Yes; he tried. And he failed.

Epically. Even with a Republican congress it didn't happen because it was recognized as a terrible idea.

[defendandprotect]

29. And everyone now recognizes that it will probably take the Democrats to pull it off . . .

Just as Clinton betrayed us with FT agreements --

and removing 60 year welfare guarantees --

We ALL recognize that this health care plan is DEFORM, not reform --

White House and all of the Democratic Party know this is NOT what the public wants --

However, they are beholden to corporate interest . . . private interests . . . not the public.

And they are doing the bidding of their corporate owners.

[babylonsister]

19. Did he succeed? Who's forgetting history? nt

[defendandprotect]

30. Are they giving up . . . ?

Who helped the GOP with FT agreements . . .

with overturning 60 years of welfare guarantees . . .

[ixion]

2. k/r

I think many miss this not-so-subtle nuance. Mandates turn insurance companies into defacto government agencies, with the unchecked power of the IRS to enforce payment.

That is freakin' nutz, imo.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. Not gonna happen.

The insurance companies don't want that demographic. Old, sick people cost money and can't afford exorbitant premiums. Medicare and SS are the third rails of politics; they are such popular programs that messing with them would be political suicide. Even with a Republican majority in Congress, Bush couldn't privatize SS and the attempt crashed and burned. I'm not worried.

[ixion]

5. insurance companies don't want forced clientele they can charge through the nose?

oh please.

:eyes:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

7. They want people who can pay. Old people on fixed incomes can't pay.

[ixion]

16. uh, on the contrary

sure, older people have fixed incomes, but they're stable incomes, which means stable payments.

[defendandprotect]

18. What a freaking laugh . . . turning Medicare into Medicaid escapes you . . .???

You destroy the benefits and charge more for them ...

But who would have thought of that???

eh . . . let's see . . . Nixon tape . . . discussion with Ehrlichman ...

Kaiser Insurance -- less care/more money????

Ring a bell ???



:eyes: :shrug: :blush:

:rofl: :rofl:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

20. Oh, fer fuck's sake...

[Faryn Balyncd]

37. ..

[defendandprotect]

13. Right ... Pharma didn't want any part of Medicare Part D...drugs????????

Are you kidding yourself or trying to kid us???

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

15. That's a looong way from the whole Medicare system.

[defendandprotect]

21. Yeah . . . would be hard to figure how they could swallow the whole system . . . ???

Just like it would be hard to figure how we have had two phases now of

S&L theft and embezzlements which taxpayers have paid for --

And how capitalism/corporatism is organized crime --

Yep -- guess they wouldn't find a way to do it!!???

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[cali]

6. I ain't buying. first of all, this legislation, flawed as it is

actually reins in some of the corporate control of healthcare currently extant. It does so by capping profits on each dollar taken in by the insurance companies, by providing health care through CHCs for millions more, by enabling more state control. Yes, the mandate to buy private insurance is onerous.

Anyway, it also, for me, comes down to which experts to believe. You are not an expert. Bernie is. Howard Dean is. Paul Krugman is. They all disagree with you.

[lamp_shade]

8. Oh jeez........

[stray cat]

9. You miss the critical point that health care was never through the government

unlike SS and Medicare. However, the GOP wanted to put SS in the stock market so if we give them control they will try to do that regardless of any paranoia about this bill

However, rationale thought on DU may be no more likely than Free Republic

[defendandprotect]

24. The overall problem we face is CORPORATISM/FASCISM . . .

That is the leaders we are being given are given to us by those forces . . .

and the candidates we get to elect are PRE-BRIBED AND PRE-OWNED by corporations.

How anyone can logically expect that these legislators with their pockets stuffed

with corporate money are going to work in the public interest is amazing . . .

in fact, it would be delusional!

Capitalism is a system intended to move the wealth and natural resources of a nation

from the many to the few -- it's quite successful at that -- and it doesn't miss a nickel!!


Both Social Security and Medicare have been under attack by the GOP/corporatists for

decades -- if they could they'd destroy them.

Are they short of ideas on how to destroy social programs???

The Democatic Party has been working in unison with the Repugs for decades --

Look at the damage Clinton did with the trade agreements --

with reversing 60 years of Welfare Guarantees -- !!

Wake up!

[Selatius]

11. History is on the side of entropy. All good things must end sometime.

I'm sure history books centuries from now will chart out for future students the rise and fall of the Republic of the United States of America from its triumph and birth against the British Empire to its zenith following the World Wars and its slow decline and then dissolution after the Cold War ended and the dawn of the third millennium.

[KharmaTrain]

12. If You Haven't Noticed We Already Have That...

That is, if you're fortunate to be able to afford the premiums and co-pays. Then the corporates decide which doctor you see and how they treat you. So the status quo is fine for you? That's your choice...either the "deform" or nothing at all and the corporates really win.

[defendandprotect]

25. Why agree to "fear based" downward spirals . . . ????

Why not commit to real REFORM . . . improvement --

and why permit our government to be more fully penetrated by corporate interests???

[KharmaTrain]

34. Our Government IS A Corporate Interest

The problem too many people have is they don't realize the government is a huge corporation...the largest employer and the main source of income for millions more. It provides services, but its still operated like a business and where its vested interests are served first. The thought is a government run healthcare system would be some kind of nirvana...every little thing would be taken care of and somehow it'd all be paid for. Truth is to have a functional single payer or public option system, this would require setting up a government corporation...or expand the existing one known as Medicare. What I've supported is a competition between the corporates...government and private that keep each other "honest". I've long objected in going from one gatekeeper to another.

Committing to "real" reform requires reforming a political system and culture that only changes reluctantly. This debate shows the work needed for Progressives and other reformers in working to win key Senate and House races next year that will advance those ideals and interests. The sooner Progressives learn this lesson, the sooner this bill can be ammended and expanded into the public option and eventually single payer.

[defendandprotect]

40. What you're saying is that the "people's" government has been betrayed to capitalism . ..

We all pretty much recognize that, but few of us recommend compromising with fascism!

The government provides services, responds to the needs of the public -- when operating

properly --

That does not make it a "corporation" ...

I think the expectation that most Americans had was that we weren't reinventing the wheel

and that we certainly could do as well as any other nation in providing universal health

care for each and every citizen.

This legislation is, of course, NOT anything but unprecedented corporate/fascism.

$600 billion/$800 billion worth of it!

Cementing corporations into our health care system.

Single payer would only be dependent upon government administration -- as Medicare and

Social Security are dependent upon that administration. Again, these programs have long

been under negative impact from corporate influence and interferencem, including in the

creating of the Surplus/Slush funds -- a burden added to the program and paid for mainly

by the poor and middle class.

Medicare, of course, privatized in its administration -- wasn't Perot profiting from that? --

and in its drug program.

Glad you agree this should be at minimum Public option . . . better yet, single payer!!

Happy New Year!

[gravity]

23. The health care system has more corporate control right now

The Democrats are increasing regulation of the insurance industry with new bill, which is an increase in government control over corporations.

[defendandprotect]

26. There is no competition for corps or control on pricing without Public Option . . .

[cali]

27. wrong.

if there's actual enforcement of provisions in the legislation there will be pricing controls.

I'm getting the strong feeling that you don't have a clue as to the legislation itself.

[blindpig]

28. Yep, here it comes.

Emboldened by their health care 'victory' and given next year's announced goal of 'fiscal responsibility' an assault upon SS is a sure thing, it has already been hinted at.

Keep pushing, just keep pushing......

[Gman]

31. Horse manure

[ipaint]

32. The administartion is already considering an independant

commission to take care of the entitlement problem. It's being lobbied for by conservatives and neo-liberals.
They plan on dealing with entitlements beginning in Feb.

WASHINGTON (MNI) - White House budget director Peter Orszag Wednesday said that comprehensive health care reform is a "necessary but not sufficient" step to begin overhauling the nation's increasingly expensive entitlement programs.

Speaking at a health care conference, Orszag said the Obama administration believes that additional entitlement reform steps will be needed after health care reform is accomplished.

"More will be necessary" to reform entitlements," he said.

The White House budget chief said that the administration's fiscal year 2011 budget, which will be released in early February, will include some important budget reforms.

Orszag said the administration will have "a lot more to say in February" about overhauling the nation's entitlement programs.

http://imarketnews.com/node/5478

Obama is a neo-liberal. There is one way to deal with entitlements for neo-liberals. Cut them.
Health care cost aren't going down as a result of this new faux reform. The problems medicare face with rising costs and enrollment are still there. We must be able to pay for the military empire we have built and that our economy now depends on. Everything will be sacrificed for that empire.

Corporations now are permanently in the drivers seat for healthcare. There is no reason to think social security and medicare will be dealt with any differently.

"Well, Senator, I was about to address entitlements,” Bernanke replied. “I think you can’t tackle the problem in the medium term without doing something about getting entitlements under control and reducing the costs, particularly of health care.”

Bernanke reminded Congress that it has the power to repeal Social Security and Medicare.

“It’s only mandatory until Congress says it’s not mandatory. And we have no option but to address those costs at some point or else we will have an unsustainable situation,” said Bernanke

Reed asked him if he could think of other ways, but Bernanke returned to entitlement money as the way to balance the budget.

“Willie Sutton robbed banks because that’s where the money is, as he put it,” Bernanke said. “The money in this case is in entitlements.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/03/bernanke-channels-willie_n_378963.html


I have no doubt it will happen and the same crowd cheering for so called health care reform will cheer for reductions in entitlements as long as it's wrapped up in a pretty partisan bow and a big warm smile.

[MineralMan]

Sounds like a freeper talking point to me.

The sky is truly falling, apparently.

[rocktivity]

33. Pull it off? They've already pulled it off

This bill will simply enhance what they've pulled off--in five years!

rocktivity
:wow:

[Historic NY]

35. Blah blah blah,,,,,,,,,if the GOP got its way SS would have got to Wall St..

so your premise is just hype.

[Faryn Balyncd]

36. The administration's hired White House "adviser" Zeke Emanuel opely advocates PRIVATIZING MEDICARE

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/3684

[MilesColtrane]

38. Any politician who fucks with Social Security will be denutted and sent back to where he came from.

The only government spending more popular than Medicare and and Social Security is for the national parks system and crime fighting and prevention services.

Everybody who was paying attention just saw what the stock market does to retirement accounts.

It (privatization) will never happen.

[Faryn Balyncd]

39. That's where the "independent commission" comes in...to get the scapegoat role that Lieberman got...

....with HC "reform".

With an "independent commission" Obama, and the Democratic Congress, can avoid accountability for destroying Social Security and Medicare.

Just like with those elusive "60 votes" in healthcare ("We didn't have the votes. So we'll just have to go along and fix it later.")....Obama, and the Democratic Congress will be able to shift the blame to the "independent commission" and claim that, since they only have the option to vote it up or down without amendments, that they will have "no choice" because to vote it down will be to throw out all the "good reforms" that are a "small start"..... To bad that mean old "independent commission" will choose to re-define the formula for adjusting for inflation, and put into place a thousand and one other accounting tricks to gut your retirement (for which you've faithfully paid contributions for 40 years). "It wasn't our fault. It was that mean old independent commission."}

[swilton]

41. Unfortunately - I agree with you

K&R

[debbierlus]

42. Of course. This bill goes after Medicare.

[merkins]

43. Agreed .. like setting up bowling pins (nt)

[HuckleB]

44. BS...