"judges to charge jail and prison inmates $50 a day" (Fl.)

[ensho]

http://www.ocala.com/article/20091220/articles/912201021&tc=yahoo


Incarceration fees come under fire


A brief provision buried deep in the Florida statutes is being applied with greater frequency these days in Marion County, to the chagrin of its targets and their legal advocates.

The law has been challenged and upheld by the state's highest court at least twice over the last decade. Now, as this area continues to profoundly feel the effects of economic downturn, some wonder whether the law's indiscriminate application goes too far.

The provision at issue allows judges to charge jail and prison inmates $50 a day to cover the costs of incarceration - no matter the length of the sentence, the inmate's ability to pay, or the nature of the underlying offense.

Marion County Judge John Futch has been imposing this charge consistently since May. Circuit Judge Hale Stancil has done so for the past few years.

These costs can easily balloon. Multiply $50 by 364 days - the maximum jail term for a first-degree misdemeanor - and confront a figure no average defendant could easily pay.

-snip-

Even though inmates who can't pay incur no immediate penalty, such as additional jail time, they do face a civil judgment that can complicate future efforts to buy property or finance a car purchase.

Then there is the snowball effect: All defendants are slapped with court costs and fees that, if left unpaid, could result in suspension of their driver's licenses. Without a license, it may be tougher to get and hold a job. Without that income, satisfying a lien becomes a far-flung notion.

-snip-

Both judges are unsentimental and no-nonsense about applying this "legal mechanism."

"Quite frankly, I think the people going to jail ought to pay something for it," Futch said. "My suspicion is the taxpayers are probably sick of paying for people to go to jail. The law's there, why not utilize it?"

-snip-

Stancil, meantime, acknowledges that while he doesn't necessarily agree with everything the Legislature mandates, the $50 per diem is fine.

"Why do I do it? Because it's the law," the judge said. "Even though they don't have the ability to pay today, that doesn't necessarily mean can't pay it tomorrow. It may never be collected, but that doesn't mean we aren't going to try to assess it."
-long snip-
----------------------------------


two insane, cruel bastards

in a neo con run crumbling state

[derby378]

1. And if they can't pay, they...stay in jail?

What an idiot.

[Obamanaut]

22. No, they do not. This was in the OP - "Even though inmates who

can't pay incur no immediate penalty, such as additional jail time, they do face a civil judgment that can complicate future efforts to buy property or finance a car purchase."

I think this means that at the end of their sentence of 364 days or less, they have a debt hanging over them that will adversely affect their future income.

[pitohui]

30. no they are unable to work forever, so they will now become a drain on their family and friends

this punishment is meant not just to destroy the prisoner but the family too

these judges want to crush certain communities and make sure everybody involved is dragged down, even those who are innocent of any crime

the ex prisoners end up having to hustle their friends and family for the money, which is incredibly destructive to the family, the community, and to relationships

[Obamanaut]

46. Yet another reason not to break the law. Prisoners are already

'hustling' their friends and family for money, and they have for a long time.

Prisoners will send for bible study courses from churches with prison outreach ministries, and then start sending requests for money to buy soap (it is provided) toilet paper (it is provided) toothpaste and brushes (provided) telling the kind church people they must buy these things with their own money.

Or call family members collect, and berate them for not sending money to their account - they need beef jerky and chips to survive.

[Posteritatis]

36. That certainly won't affect recidivism or anything. (nt)

[debbierlus]

2. Gross.

[newlib]

3. that's what used to be known as debtor's prison. nt

[aquart]

11. I've got the tiniest suspicion that's unconstitutional.

[aquart]

13. I've got the tiniest suspicion that's unconstitutional.

And I don't think they spend $50 a day on these prisoners. This is a profit-making fine.

[SOCALS]

55. But fines are okay according to many here on this board.

No matter how huge they are. Think about those poor people that these criminals harmed

[joeybee12]

4. Basically, this law will probably turn first-time offenders into career

criminals...these 2 judges are scum.

[ThomCat]

68. Yes, These judges apparently believe that anyone who

gets convicted of breaking the law once deserves to be condemned for life.

So if you get railroaded into a bullshit conviction, your life as a free citizen is over.
If you make a mistake, you'll never finish paying for it.
If you are wrongly convicted, there is no chance of ever fully correcting the mistake.
Etc.

This per day fine is wrong on many, many levels. It should be abolished.

Those judged clearly do not have the moral or ethical clarity, or the compassion, to deserve to sit on the bench. :(

[Vinnie From Indy]

5. What is becoming of America?

I would look into these judges financial portfolios to see if they own prison stocks.

[GodlessBiker]

6. Make the checks payable to Judge Buford T. Justice.

[BridgeTheGap]

7. I bet the private prisons love this shit. n.t

[peace frog]

8. The State Motto:

"Welcome to Flori-DUH. Leave all your money and go home."

This state is doing everything in its power to destroy the middle class. And it's succeeding.

[hayu_lol]

9. Hmmm...once they get out and see their bill...

they will have to run around the country holding up health insurance companies to get the money.

[onethatcares]

48. no, the state motto is:

Come on vacation, leave on probation, return on revocation.

And to think that when I got here in 79, we had a Florida novelty plate on the front of my vehicle that said, "ARRIVE STONED".

My how things have changed. :wtf:

[peace frog]

50. Lived here all my life

and have seen more changes than I can recount, and very little for the better.

[T Wolf]

10. The asshole says "going to jail" as if he was saying "going to Disney World." I should not

expect anything better from Florida.

[ixion]

12. disgusting

what the hell is wrong with this country?

[SoCalDem]

14. That's a bargain.. Calif charged us $87.00 a day

when our shithead son got himself locked up for 8 months at the youth facility...this was in 1996..

added to all the psychiatry bills we paid trying to help him get his head on straight..( for FIVE years, twice a week)..and court costs and lawyers fees (even though we told the court and lawyers he was guilty as sin, and he admitted it to them), and restitution...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

25. Shithead or not, that's horrid.

What would have happened if you had simply refused to pay the $87 a day? Just bad credit for him, or more?

[SoCalDem]

26. He was a minor... we had NO options..

although, had we been poor, it would have been a freebie..

The kicker.. That little shit had the NERVE to bitch about the fact that each of our other boys "got a free car"... and he did not.:rofl:

we reminded him that he had pretty much pissed away a Porsche


the other two's cars.. a 1973 Maverick that we bought, new... when I was pregnant with that son (17 years prior)..and a 1973 Super Beetle I bought for myself and then decided it was not as much fun to drive as I thought it would be..that car went to the youngest

[Flaneur]

15. I just refused to pay it.

Five days in jail in South Dakota for "internal possession" of marijuana. I'm not making it up.

They wanted to charge me $25 a day for their choice to imprison me for a victimless crime. They hired a local collection agency to come after me. The day before I was due in small claims court, I settled for $50, the amount the collection agency charges the county.

I do not pay for being kidnapped and held for ransom by the state.

[Posteritatis]

37. Internal - whaa?

Were they clamiing you were stashing it in your bloodstream or something?

[Flaneur]

51. Precisely.

South Dakota and the United Arab Emirates are the only places I know of on the planet to have a law criminalizing cannabis metabolites in one's bodily fluids.

Busted with a bud, booked into jail, charged with possession, then drug tested and charged with another count--internal possession.

[Posteritatis]

52. ... ahsdjkashjkasd!

You broke my coherence. Argh.

[ChoppinBroccoli]

16. There Is A County In Ohio That Already Does That

This is a small, rural county, and I only know about it because when I went to the jail to visit a prisoner (one of my clients), I read some of the signs hanging on the wall while I was waiting. One of them said something about how they would be charged a certain amount of money PER DAY of their "stay" as a "processing fee." I remember thinking what a ridiculous rule that was, but then it helped answer another question I had had for quite a long time: Why does Judge X of this county (without question, the biggest A-hole judge it's ever been my displeasure to appear in front of), lock EVERYBODY up? I'm not kidding, this jerk was handing out jail sentences on the most minor of offenses. But when I saw that sign, it all became crystal clear.

I agree with prior posters. I don't know how this could be considered Constitutional. Especially when you figure that the County is ALREADY getting money from fines and court costs and probation fees, etc. (so the "we need this money to keep the jail running" argument falls flat on its face). I mean, how do you go about CHARGING someone to stay someplace they didn't want to stay in the first place? And again, what if they can't pay? Do they make them stay LONGER (thereby making the bill even HIGHER)? Sorry, but I've seen the bologna sandwiches that they serve to prisoners as their "meals," and one slice of bologna between two slices of bread doesn't come to no 50 bucks. Someone should really look into this.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

24. Bingo. It poisons the entire justice system. Makes imprisoning people DESIRABLE for the government.

There was a high-profile case of a judge dealing bogus jail terms for his own profit, wasn't it? What came of that?

[pitohui]

31. it was in pennsylvania and it was juvenile terms he was selling

he was jailing KIDS for $$$, how is he any less a predator that if he was sucking a kid's dick for money, hell, what he did caused more permanent harm to the kids than a blow job

as far as i'm concerned he should get life or execution but i think it became a civil case -- maybe someone has a link, it wasn't that long ago he got busted

[mrmpa]

64. No convictions yet

It was 2 judges in Luzerne County (Western Pennsylvania). They sent juveniles to a private facility in eastern Pennsylvania and were paid for each juvenile they sent. Their law licenses have been suspended, but otherwise it's in legal limbo. Two of the three owners have also been charged in the case, the third owner (brother of the Allegheny (Pittsburgh) District Attorney, and the son of a former Superior Court Judge has never been charged.

[Posteritatis]

41. He and another judge got hammered very nicely for it

Disbarred, they each either got five or seven years (I forget), and last I heard every case they were involved with is either getting wiped or very very closely reviewed. Several hundred peoples' records got cleaned up as a result so far.

[TicketyBoo]

45. It's not just the bologna sandwiches.

I've seen the bologna sandwiches that they serve to prisoners as their "meals," and one slice of bologna between two slices of bread doesn't come to no 50 bucks.

Think about the guards' salaries, the electricity, the water, laundry expenses, the salary of the person making those bologna sandwiches, upkeep on the facilities, and on and on. There's a lot more expense to a jail than the cost of bologna sandwiches.

I don't see why prisoners shouldn't be made aware of those costs instead of being housed, fed, and clothed totally at taxpayer expense. Maybe it should be a sliding-scale per diem fee based on the person's income tax return the year before incarceration, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who break the law.

[Pithlet]

63. It's stupid. Two reasons why it's is a very bad idea.

Number one, and this is the biggie, it gives extra-judicial incentive to jail our citizens. Really, this no other reason need exist. Number two, what good do you think additional debt does to people being released? How does that help them to be better citizens? Don't you think the additional debt and the burden it creates might make crime more attractive? Whether or not you have any sympathy for them makes no difference to me when they've robbed my home or business.

[TicketyBoo]

65. Nope.

No "extra incentive." I know of no prisons in the country that are facing a shortfall of prisoners. Just the opposite, in fact. Prisoners are getting released before their sentences are up due to overcrowding. There is no "extra incentive" to jail people by these fees simply because there is no extra space in prisons. That argument might hold water if there were empty cells begging for prisoners to fill them, but that is simply not the case.

[nykym]

17. We can only hope

that some day this honorable judge gets caught doing something illegal and winds up in his own prisoner funded jail cell.

[Echo In Light]

18. Activist judge? Soulless, shit stain PIG judge

[old mark]

19. We have had that in PA for many years. Part of my job when I was working

in a county prison was to tell the convicted inmates that they were being charged for their stay in prison. They would have a bill to pay when they got out, and would have an assigned collection agency who would get the money over time. I think it was $20 a day back then. I also told them they were not allowed to smoke, and that if someone broke the cell block TV, they would all have to do without it.
Prison should not be fun, or pleasant or a good experience.


mark

[Thickasabrick]

20. No...it shouldn't be fun...but it should at least appear to encourage rehabilitation...

this is just ignorant spitefulness.

[old mark]

38. Part of the "program" is mandatory jobs for all convicted inmates - they get paid, and

pay for their room and board.

I am amazed at such sympathy for criminals. Since actually working with them, I have very little.

mark

[Thickasabrick]

60. Oh - I didn't realize they can work off their debt in prison - sorry I

didn't understand how your program worked. Criminals are still people and when they serve their time, they should be able to start over again and not be criminals.

[Hannah Bell]

dupe

dupe

[Hannah Bell]

66. prison labor (paid at below minimum wage) used to at least be a way

for inmates to accrue some cash so they wouldn't be penniless when they got out.

i guess the state wants slave labor now.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

21. Of course, because going to prison is fun, pleasant and a good experience unless you pay money.

Jesus. :eyes:

It's always like that. Something over-the-top outrageous is done to convicts, no matter how egregious, and there's always someone who comes back with those stupid standard retorts:

"If you can't do the time don't do the crime"

"Prison should not be fun"

"He should have thought about that before breaking the law"

Such asshole quotes can be used to justify ANYTHING!

"What, 50 years hard labor for shoplifting a bag of Cheetos?"
"If you can't do the time don't do the crime"

"What, they're putting on giant parabolic mirrors to increase the heat in the cells in the middle of the summer?"
"Prison should not be fun"

"Did you hear about that man who was killed in prison? His crime was having sex with a 17yo while being 19yo."
"He should have thought about that before breaking the law"

I have a name for that: SADISM.

[Leftist Agitator]

23. +1

[Name removed]

40. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blueamy66]

27. So, prison is just for punishment and

should offer no rehabilitation? And when a prisoner gets out, they should have a debt hanging over their head....which I'm sure they cannot pay....so they will return to a life of crime.

Absolutely stupid.

And to think I got a Criminal Justice degree. Sheesh. Your post disgusts me.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

28. Course not, silly! It's for providing the ruling class their god-riven right to enjoy the pleasure

of Crushing the Inferior!

If one of those punks is actually able to live a decent, fulfilling life afterward, Nordic Baby Jesus will cry!

[pitohui]

32. do you even have a conscience? how could you sleep at night?

prison should not be about someone putting $20 or $50 a day in their pocket

that is just evil

prison *should* cost society, so that society does not have an incentive to create prisoners without damn good reason

DNA has proved that too many innocents are convicted as it is, an economic incentive to create prisoners is just evil beyond belief -- not to mention that many prisoners are there for victimless crimes such as pot, selling sex, or some bullshit like that -- there is no incentive to look for alternative ways to handle these crimes if there's $$$ to be collected by creating prisoners

[old mark]

35. Prisoners create themselves when they violate the rights of other human beings.

I am very sorry you feel this way. One thing I learned when I was working in the prison-my practicum for my degree in Social Work- was that there is a good reason for prisons, and most people in them really belong there.
I hope you are never victimized by one of them.

mark

[Posteritatis]

39. So you like that they're hit with conditions that makes their ending up back there more likely? (nt)

[old mark]

42. You mean like beating people for a few dollars, kidnapping and raping a woman

repeatedly for almost a week? That kind of poor prisoner?

I hope you never have the misfortune to actually meet some of these scum, and remainsecure in your illusions.

mark

[Posteritatis]

44. Swing that emotional appeal! Them's proper good thinking! (nt)

[old mark]

59. No, I mean like the people I interviewed when I worked in a prison.

You really believe the stupidity you are proposing?

That's just amazing.


mark

[BreweryYardRat]

62. Some inmates ARE violent scumbags. Most people aren't denying that.

But there's also a lot of people in jail who aren't irredeemable. Dope smokers, petty thieves, bar brawlers, etc... Also see my comment below about this law possibly being used against protesters.

Bankrupting someone who got charged with a misdemeanor is unacceptable. A year in jail at $50 a day works out to about $18,000. That's going to put most folks into a hole they can't get out of.

[blueamy66]

49. How does possessing a few joints

violate the rights of other human beings? How about someone who doesn't pay traffic tickets? Or misses a probation appointment?

Not all crimes violate others' rights.

[Flaneur]

53. What about drug offenders?

About 25% of prisoners are in there not because they violated the rights of any other human beings but because they got busted for drug offenses.

The US leads the world in imprisoning its citizens. Why is that? Are Americans just so much more criminal than everyone else? Or could it be we are vengeful, punishing society?

[SOCALS]

57. You see, according to many on this board,

any fine is good and all who break any law should be crushed because this saves lives!

[Hannah Bell]

67. when prisons are run by private corps, there *is* incentive.

it's like military contractors, who build things to blow up to suck an income stream from the state.

ditto with prisoners, they're an income stream for corps in several ways: slave labor, state payments, etc.

[pitohui]

29. this should not be legal, but if it is, let it happen to the children of each of these judges

there should never be an economic incentive to make prisoners and slaves -- NEVER

by making it impossible for people to get an honest life back after prison, we create a class of permanent criminals who prey on the community, presumably the only way to pay off these debts would be to rip off your family and friends, get into home invasion/burglaries, or get into the drug business -- but these judges don't care, they figure the victims will be people in poor communities (which they will) not the people in the judge's nice clean gated community

you can't earn enough in a post-jail job to keep yourself as it is, much less pay back enormous fines

it ain't a hotel and you shouldn't be paying for the privilege

if there is a god (pretty obv. there isn't) everyone who implements this policy, well, let's put it this way -- if I was a god, then every judge who did this, i would make it so that his wife, his daughter, his son, whoever is closest to his heart -- that person would be seized by the state and utterly crushed like this -- people in power don't care until it affects THEM, they are sociopaths without a soul or a heart

i'm getting sick and tired of the cruelty of this society, if the prisoner is such a terrible person that they should be a slave forever, just kill them, don't torture them forever for the rest of their life

[Blue_Tires]

33. iirc, a few years ago there was an tough-talking Arpaio-wannabe warden

in Rhode Island who wanted to charge the inmates weekly as well -- Until someone finally told him that under state law, charging the inmates would have elevated them to the legal status of "renters", and given them all the legal protections of that designation...So his crusade to make a name for himself died after a couple of weeks...

[quinnox]

34. I normally have little sympathy for prisoners but this goes

way too far. Talk about Draconic punishment. Not only will you have your freedom taken away which is almost the worst thing that can happen to you but you will have to pay for it as a bonus. Not to mention as the others said it will force these people to become career criminals which is bad for the community and society.

This should be challenged as cruel and unusual punishment by the ACLU.

[SOCALS]

56. If people with a DUIs are allowed

to be fined $2,000-4,000, I don't see why these prisoners should be given preferential treatment. Let's bankrupt them all!

[Poll_Blind]

43. So how's the dealer,prostitute, thief, whatever going to pay off that huge bill once they get out...

...of jail? By stealing, tricking, dealing.

It's not so much the money it's tearing down what little hope of a normalized future when these people get out. That's not only sending a person back into society on the worst foot possible, it's just begging for them to go right back to making the easy money.

Slavery was outlawed. But our penal system, especially with the privately-run prisons are basically turning this nation into one big plantation where the color of your skin has little to do with who the slavers pick.

PB

[Orsino]

47. Just to ensure they can never pay their debt to society...

...we'll invent a new one to add to the list.

[SOCALS]

54. Someone on this board told me

that it is so EASY to avoid these penalties imposed by law. Just don't break the law. If you broke the law, they say, then the government is allowed to put you into the bottomless pit of bankruptcy

[Posteritatis]

58. There's someone in this *thread* who's a big fan of that. (nt)

[BreweryYardRat]

61. $50 per diem? My ass.

This could easily be used against protesters, many of whom are working-class. A lot of protesters wind up getting charged with misdemeanors -- and not because they were violent, just because some jackass (or worse, an agent provocateur) started shit and the cops rounded up everyone in the vicinity. Even as little as a month in jail would wind up costing some poor son-of-a-bitch $1500 -- for trying to exercise his constitutional right to peaceful protest.

A year in jail for a misdemeanor would wind up being about $18,000 -- on TOP of losing a year's salary.