I keep saying this

[AllentownJake]

No matter how much I say this, how loudly I say this, or what rhetorical flourish I say this:

Without Campaign Finance Reform you will get the same from both political parties. Republicans will always end up scratching their heads after GOP administrations and Democrats will always end up scratching their heads after Democratic administrations.

Until you create rules to the game, you will have what we currently have.

P.S. I was a local Democratic Party Treasurer and a Field Organizer/ Fund Raising Assistant for a major local campaign.

End of fucking message.

[DJ13]

1. I hit the wrong button, accidentally unrecc'ed

Sorry!

[AllentownJake]

2. You wil be forgiven

When you kick this in five minutes

[timeforpeace]

37. Since the politicians write the reforms, why and how do you expect the situation to improve?

[FiveGoodMen]

3. Agreed.

I was saying the same thing last election when one of Minnesota's congressmen was hitting me up for money.

He said he knew. Maybe he does, but really what incentive is there for these congress critters to move that up to the top of the priority list?

You're absolutely right. What can we possibly do to light a fire under these guys?

[AllentownJake]

6. Fire them

Honestly, I was an auditor, after getting laid off I spent 3 months working in a major political campaign part-time. I know field operations pretty well from Obama, I got to see the fund raising side.

People want to know why I've changed, well seeing that :puke:

[WT Fuheck]

4. Rec, but . . . I'll see your campaign finance reform,

and I'll raise you a giant check from my PAC to Senator X's campaign.


Incumbents will NEVER vote for real reform. Not of health care, not of our military spending, not of the regulation of capitalism, and certainly not of campaign finance reform. Our government exists purely to preserve the status quo, and the status quo has slipped inexorably further into the cesspool with every campaign.



So how do we do it?

[defendandprotect]

52. I've often recommended we sue the government . . . liberals/progressives ...

have to come together in a voting bloc -- with our $$$ -- and legal representation --

Erin Brockovitch? -- ACLU? -- and find a way to fight corporate buying of government

and ownership of our elected officials --

Obviously, we need a lot of ideas and there should be a lot of discussion of this here

at DU --

Though I think that maybe Skinner should think about changing the name of the website

to small "d" democratic underground --???

[inthebrain]

5. I think the purging of the left from American society during the McCartthy hearings

is really the issue. In the early 20th century there have been vast instances where the government has gone after the left (Socialists, Communists and Anarchists) in one form or another. There will never be campaign finance reform or anything else of that line unless this purge is addressed.

What I find interesting is that the right wing and their radicals have never really had a McCarthyesque attack. It's allowed to exist undisturbed.

The issue really is the mechanics of capitalism and the folks "scratching their heads" are a product of a reactionary system.

[AllentownJake]

8. FDR sent a few to concentration camps

It is a shame he didn't try them for treason during WW2.

[inthebrain]

11. What?

The socialists, communists and anarchists of this country were fighting in that war LOOOOOONG before the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Especially against Franco in fascist Spain (where they were run down by mechanized armor manufactured by ford). FDR sent Japanese Americans to internment camps. Maybe that's what you are talking about.

[AllentownJake]

12. He sent a few Nazis too

My Grandmother reported her neighbors to the FBI. They weren't seen again till 47.

[inthebrain]

15. You're trying too hard to be funny

It's really boring and not very interesting. The trick is to make it seem effortless. You fail on both counts.

[AllentownJake]

16. My grandmother actually really did report her neighbors for having bund meetings

and they really were interned from 1942-1947.

[nemo137]

29. Several prominent fascists were arrested and tried during the war

William Dudley Pelley, leader of the Silver Shirts, and Gerald Winrod, for example. So the statement that the Right has never been prosecuted is inaccurate.

[amborin]

10. yes

especially the purging of left-led industrial unions during the afl-cio merger in 1955

a major turning point

[defendandprotect]

50. The original HUAC was set up to investigate the right wing in America/Nazis . ..

but was turned against the left --

Operation Paperclip brought in many Nazis -- they were used to found CIA and many

funneled into FBI, etc. NASA, with Werner van Braun as head, of course.

Not a peep from HUAC -- if anyone even knew about this at the time --???

Capitalism is a suicidal system -- suicidal for humanity and the planet --

It's intended purpose is to move the wealth and resources of a nation from the many to the few.

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime.


I'd also mention that we still fail to investigate the right wing militias and their involvement

in the domestic terrorism at women's clinics --

:)


Happy Winter Solstice -- and the return of the LIGHT -- !!

[notesdev]

7. I keep saying it too

Follow the money... all our representatives are owned by private interests.

[DJ13]

9. Kick!

;)

[1badjedi]

13. Yep

short of pitchforks and torches campaign finance reform would be the only other way to advance change. But I think it will take a serious heaping of the former to have them even consider the latter. Right now they have no reason to consider it besides our begging and pleading. That don't keep them flush with the good life so they'll just continue to tell us to toughen up and walk it off.

We get what we get because they know what's good for us right?

[1]

14. well, you can keep saying that...

but the truth is, the only people that get to decide upon "campaign finance reform" are the same people that don't want campaign finance reform.

your elected representatives.

but keep saying it if it makes you feel better...

[Better Today]

17. I'm going to agree in a very disagreeable way. Not only finance reform but also

campaign reform, such as limiting the time for campaigning to a much shorter time period as well as similarly limiting contribution time frames and rules. Unfortunately no matter what rules are put in place, there will be some PAC or some lobbying firm that will get out there, toeing the line but nonetheless endearing themselves to candidates. I don't see any real way around it, even with public direct funding, there'd always be all that indirect funding that would be damned difficult to regulate.

[TorchTheWitch]

18. you're right

Until the people stand up and force change it won't happen. Unfortunately, people will put up with an excrutiating amount of suffering before they will finally rise up. Until the government fears the people enough to work for the people they won't and the less they fear them the more they blatantly screw them.

[sudopod]

19. This. nt

[Thickasabrick]

20. K&R

[pa28]

21. Forget about real "change" until corporate cash is forbidden to parties and politicians.

That fight will be equal to a revolution and just as hard.

[lonestarnot]

22. Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat

Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat Repeat rinse repeat :mad:

[valerief]

23. Without storming the Bastille, you won't get campaign finance reform. nt

[MineralMan]

24. That is true. Unfortunately, the people who can enact

CFR are the very people who rely on it. The only way to change campaign financing is by electing legislators who support it. The only way to do that is through grassroots efforts, starting at the precinct level in your own state.

It can be done, but only by progressives assuming control of the Democratic Party organization, one precinct at a time. It's easy to say we need CFR, but it will take hard work by people working within Democratic Party structure.

There are many examples that could be studied on how to do this. It's entirely possible, but not without people taking action themselves and working to elect legislators who agree that CFR is urgently needed.

[glitch]

25. Once again I will point out CFR is only part of what needs to be done.

Getting private corporations out of our voting process is equally crucial.

And the corporate media also needs to be broken up, we've seen the monoliths provide free publicity ad nauseum to their favored candidates. As long as they are propaganda arms (think loss leaders) for their corporate owners they will continue to direct who is "electable".
Campaign Finance Reform won't help if the corporate media gives away air time for free. See Palin coverage for the best most recent example.

[CrispyQ]

27. "Getting private corporations out of our voting process is equally crucial."

:thumbups:

Electronic voting machines are another factor in clean elections. All the CRF in the world won't make a difference when 2-3 corporations count the vote.

[glitch]

30. Especially when at least 2 of those corps have a deep ideological bias against democracy.

:toast:

[defendandprotect]

53. Which two?

[Goldstein1984]

26. A former employer of mine had a company employee PAC

We had local, state and federal candidates come by and speak with us. Regardless of what they said, in the end we always donated to both major candidates. It was policy to buy everyone.

Rec

[calico1]

28. I was just discussing this with my sister..

The system as it is now is inherently corrupt. Doesn't matter which party. Too much quid pro quo.

Without reform it will always be this way no matter what any candidate says on the campaign trail.

[Vidar]

31. K&R.

[NorthCarolina]

32. I think Campaign Finance Reform and Term Limits are both necessary (nt)

[thereismore]

33. ABSOLUTELY. It's a chicken-and-the-egg problem. We need the paid-for congressmen to

cut off their own corporate funding by enacting laws against it!

[JohnnyHardhat]

34. Totally Agree-Big Rec

I've run campaigns and been a treasurer and there is a huge difference when special interest money is removed from the process. The healthcare bill is a great example of why CFR is so needed... funny how no one in Congress is saying this now.

[Canuckistanian]

35. Public campaign financing - it's the only answer

I'm always astounded at the relatively small amount of money needed to buy off a Congressman, Senator or presidential candidate. These amounts are EASILY affordable by any large corporate interest.

$5000 here, $2000 there and voila! Instant influence. At a bargain basement price. Hell, some corporations spend more on paper and staples yearly. And the ROI on those "investments" is ALSO astounding. Bill amendments that save MILLIONS. Sometimes new gov't contracts worth BILLIONS.

Here in Canada, it's illegal to contribute more than $1100, individual or organization, yearly. Also, the gov't provides FREE political advertising on ALL TV channels and radio stations, distributed fairly in terms of time. It's a requirement of their licensing agreement.

I see no reason why America can't follow suit, now that campaign donations have proven SO OBVIOUSLY harmful to the democratic process.

[hulka38]

36. In light of the health care reform debacle, how much public support for CFR, the big enchilada,

would be necessary for it to pass? 80% public approval? more? You'd have a gigantic wave of populism from the right. That could happen following a catastrophic economic collapse but I have no faith that those people would understand the true cause of it.

[grantcart]

38. agreed also need to change the filibuster which makes it worse.

[varelse]

39. I recently finished reading "Bushwhacked" by Molly Ivins

She makes the same point - Campaign Finance Reform and term limits are the necessary first steps to reforming our political system.

[avaistheone1]

40. How do we make public financing of elections happen?

We all know it is the answer.

The question is how do we do it?

[defendandprotect]

54. It's obviously a system of BRIBERY . . . and in that regard, I'd say lawsuits . . . ????

but good to see this issue being discussed and would love to seem

more of it!!!

:)

[highplainsdem]

41. K&R. Agree completely.

[Usrename]

42. What makes you think they will comply with the law?

I'm pretty sure that bribery and treason are already crimes, and that doesn't seem to phase anybody in Washington.

Why would some kind of NEW law change anything?

[debbierlus]

43. And, how do you that within the current political system - you need to get the politicians in who

will make that change!

Chicken & egg.

[glinda]

44. very true

[Indenturedebtor]

45. Kick. This has been obvious for decades now

This is not our government. It is our yoke.

[Liberation Angel]

46. I really don't agree or even really GET what you mean. Republicans = Dems?

I think you are dead wrong on this.
YES campaign reform is critical and we need more of it.

But to say Rethugs are the same as Dems is as asinine as Nader saying there wasn't a dime's bit of difference between Bush and Gore.

It is a damn lie.

I think my Dem representatives in Congress and the White House are DAMN good.

and I believe Nader was a right wing operative serving the corporofascist when he helped Bush get elected

[defendandprotect]

49. Let's stop quibbling over semantics . . . truth is there is now little difference between parties...

Corporations have been co-opting the Democratic Party for 40 years --

The Dem platform JFK ran on in 1960 called for nationalizing the oil industry --

He was ending oil depletion allowances --

There's a old saying --

Republicans are an express train to Auschwitz --

Democrats are the local train to Auschwitz --

Yes -- there are still differences, but they are few and steadily disappearing!!!

[Liberation Angel]

55. Republicans killed JFK and JFK wanted to rein in oil co. Profits

So I guess he was no bette than the people who murdered him?

Obama no better than McCain or Palin or Romney?

Pulleeze.

I get the Aushwitz analogy

but I disagree with it.

Murder is murder and with Dems there is less murder by the corporate fascists. Repubicans ARE the gestapo and SS. Dems are not.

But I would love to see the source of that quote. I like the quote. I just think it is not correct at all.

Dems want to stop the train to Auschwitz (at least the rank and file) But, as with Jews in 1930's Europe , there are many dems who are like Judenrat or capos and help the enemy.

[defendandprotect]

56. You've totally misunderstood what I am saying to you . . .

presuming that was not intentional, I'll reexplain it --

The OVERT right wing violence in America began in 1963 --

That is the only way the right wing can rise anywhere -- violence, assassinations,

stolen elections.

In 1960, the Democratic party still had IDEALS of liberty/equality/freedom . . . as

I pointed out to you re the 1960 platform. Humanity vs corporate power/oil industry.

Therefore, your comment ....

So I guess he was no bette than the people who murdered him?

suggests confusion or an attempt to confuse.



Further re this . . .

Republicans killed JFK and JFK wanted to rein in oil co. Profits

I didn't say "Republicans" killed JFK -- I said the right wing --

And, in many senses, that included LBJ who was a Democrat --

but a man who was notorious for stolen elections and murder.

Long connected to the oil industry and Mafia.

Indeed, the coup could not have been carried off nor covered up for all of these decades

without those planning the coup being able to rely on LBJ in the President's seat --



And here . . .

Murder is murder and with Dems there is less murder by the corporate fascists. Repubicans ARE the gestapo and SS. Dems are not.

You are proving the point of the maxims . . . the Democratic Party is simply now and has

long been . . . "the lesser of evils."


And, as convoluted as this comment is ...

Dems want to stop the train to Auschwitz (at least the rank and file) But, as with Jews in 1930's Europe , there are many dems who are like Judenrat or capos and help the enemy.

it's also further testimony to the fact that corporations BUY government influence and

BUY our elected representatives/officials --


And, again, here . . .

Obama no better than McCain or Palin or Romney?

Pulleeze.

This is semantic nonsense -- the comments re both parties being the same are not meant

LITERALLY . . . they are intended to point to the corporate co-opting of the Democratic

Party . . . which is not yet as advanced as in the Repug Party -- but which is intended

not only to prevent the party from being used as a tool of progressive activity and

legislation -- it's intended to finally destroy the party.

Remember that Lieberman was Gore's Veep -- had anything happened to Gore, how much different

do you think Lieberman might have been than McCain or Palin or Romney?

Lieberman was simply a Trojan Horse to move the party to the right --

And there will be other attempts --

Needless to say the poisonous corporate DLC also works to move the party to the right

and to destroy it -

[Liberation Angel]

58. Okay - points taken

I just hte to hear folks say the two are the same. They are not.

But the rightists always try to corrupt and coopt EVERYBODY.

That is what fascists do.

An they are trying with the dems.

But they do not have to succeed

[defendandprotect]

59. Again . . . it's not meant LITERALLY ... it's to provoke thought about the subject ....

YES -- we have known for 40 years that corporations were buying government

and our elected officials --

they give us the candidates -- they select our leaders!

And, yes, they have been co-opting the Democratic Party for decades . . .

very successfully.

NO -- they do not have to succeed.

We have to continue to fight them -- KNOWLEDGE about what is really going on is

the first step in creatin a plan to defeat them.

We have to understand the FAKERY of the right wing religious movement in America --

it was financed in the 1980's with the GOP giving start-up funding to the Christian

Coalition. Scaife financed Dobson's organization. Other wealthy right wingers

financed Bauer's organization. Religion has long been a tool of patriarchal elites --

from the first moments in taking over this continent -- from genocide vs the

Native American to enslavement of the African-American here. From Hawaii to Haiti!



And, including our US/CIA creating the VIOLENT Islamic movement and pushing it into

the Middle East. If you want more on that and our creation of the Taliban/Al Qaeda,

let me know and I'll post the info for you--


Happy Winter Solstice and the return of the LIGHT!!

[HughMoran]

47. I agree - government will never be 'by the people" if only rich connected people can run for office

Some Reps are regular people, but Senators and Presidential candidates that have even a remote chance of winning need HUGE amounts of money. And with that money comes influence.

[defendandprotect]

48. Unfortunately, we have to look to these pre-BRIBED and pre-OWNED Democats not only

for health care reform -- but for campaign finance reform!!!

We also need IRV voting --

and a total bar on any participation whatsoever by corporations in our elections.

Any suggestions?

Happy New Year!

[blondeatlast]

51. There is no arguing with that, IMHO. d/r

[defendandprotect]

57. LATE K&R --