Cold-hearted EMTs showed no remorse after pregnant woman Eutisha Rennix's death, say co-workers

[RamboLiberal]

The two EMTs accused of failing to help a dying pregnant woman when she collapsed in front of them did not show "an ounce of remorse" afterward, sources said Tuesday.

Co-workers say they were shocked at the cold-hearted reactions of Jason Green, 32, and Melisa Jackson, 23, after the deaths of the mom-to-be and her premature baby.

"They had a callous disregard for that woman," one longtime co-worker said. "They didn't show an ounce of remorse. I couldn't believe it. It's like they felt as if they couldn't be bothered to help that woman."

-----


The Brooklyn district attorney's office said it is considering prosecuting Green and Jackson for official misconduct and reckless endangerment. They could face jail time if convicted.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/12/23/2009-12-23_untitled__2emt23m.html#ixzz0aWusEBVM

[dkf]

1. Are they emts or dispatchers?

The article says they work in the dispatch unit.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

2. Its sounds like both

Other articles state they had no equipment and had not been out in the field in years. That is still no excuse.

I carry a couple of pairs of disposable gloves with me on my MC. If I was an EMT or carried a shoulder bag of some sort I would have them with me at all times.

[dkf]

3. Why didn't the rest of the dispatching crew come down to help then?

Was there no one there to help?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. Someone has to man the phones...

[unblock]

23. afaik, all dispatchers are required to be licensed emts

that doesn't mean they're remotely capable of being useful in the field. dispatchers do phone work. they need to be able to talk someone through an emergency. some dispatchers are severe germaphobes and can't go near patients but can work wonders over the phone.

[Hepburn]

4. Whether dispatchers or currently certified EMTs...

...they sure as hell had more knowledge than those standing around. Doing nothing IMO was not an option for these two clowns. (PS...no offense meant to Stinky on the use of the word "clowns.")

[NashVegas]

5. Do We Know The EMT's Qualified To Be Protected Under Good Samaritan Laws?

If not, and they were aware of it, then it's harsh.

[vadawg]

7. good question, people are very reticent to help in the absence of the good faith protections

the very fact that if you do help that you can be sued for everything you have makes people think twice sometimes...

[CreekDog]

31. So they would let someone die because otherwise, they think they *might* get sued?

why don't we call this what it really is instead of making excuses for it?

oh and New York State protects people who assist in this way, but whatever, I think my first point trumps that.

[snagglepuss]

9. As per supervisor they were trained in first aid and all EMTs are expected

to assist. ( from an article the other day)

[Pithlet]

21. Maybe if they were worried about being sued, they were in the wrong profession n/t

[vadawg]

24. hate to break it to you, but just because you are a nurse or doctor or emt dosent mean you dont

worry about being sued, think about it you could lose everything you have ever worked for just for trying to help someone. Thats why i like the good faith laws, it means you can help to the best of your ability and not have to worry about being sued into oblivion. Mayby a better question you should have asked is what kinda world is it that someone who tries to save someone can be sued...

[Pithlet]

37. Sorry. Find another line of work then. You're supposed to do your job.

No, I'm not going to ask that question because I think it comes from that ridiculous anti-tort talking point ether, the same one that stupid McDonald's hot coffee case always comes from. All those boogie man cases meant to scare people into thinking we're oh so law suit happy in this country! Ooga booga!

I don't think those assholes were scared they were going to get sued. I don't think that's the reason they didn't help.

[vadawg]

42. never said that was the reason they didnt help, but every rescue personnel is aware of the risk

of helping and being sued, you might be in denial but the risk is out there, as to doing their job, is it their job as you say if they are off the clock and therefore personally liable if anything goes wrong. not defending them but it is something rescue personnel have to think about..

[Pithlet]

44. Being aware of the risk is much different than refusing to help.

For one thing, I looked, and I couldn't find a single case where an EMT was successfully sued for rendering aid off duty. Not one, with extensive searching. If it's happened, it's an extreme case. I did, however, find several sources stating that it would be very unlikely for such a suit to be successful. For example: http://emt-training.org/medical-legal-ethical.php So, if EMTs have that risk in the back of their mind, it's pretty much an unfounded fear. They're more likely to get hit by lightening. So, if these two acted based on that fear, it was pretty damn stupid. If you were offering it up a possible explanation was far fetched. Otherwise, I'm not sure how that basically unfounded fear is even relevant in this case.

[snagglepuss]

55. According to a supervisor that was interviewed early on, he said they were trained

and all emts are expected to assist in emergencies. I imagine this is why one story mentioned a charge of criminal neglience is being considered.:shrug:

[Echo In Light]

6. I'm guessing that if this unfortunate woman has a husband/boyfriend/relatives, the EMTs better....

grow eyes in the back of their skulls as they may need em

[femrap]

8. My head hurts.

What is happening to our society?

[etherealtruth]

10. How can human beings do something like this ....

I haven't worked as a nurse in almost 15 years. I would never take charge of a situation, but for god's sake, I know how to provide human comfort, check many things and report my findings and follow instructions.

This was an inhuman response!

[loudsue]

12. Since the republicans made sociopathy a fad in the U.S.

People think it's cool to be assholes since the reagan years....it got so much worse under Gingrich & bush. The republicans ARE sociopaths, and these people reflect that attitude perfectly. They don't care about American citizens...just their pep rallies with flags, purple band aids, flag pins and antiabortion signs.

[City Lights]

19. +1!

:thumbsup:

[HillbillyBob]

46. Right you are

There is the anti education/intellectual side too. which I noticed before that.
There is nothing wrong with learning about things.
I watch the educational channels, I also read a lot too.
This anti educated/intellectual only undermines our societies ability to take
part and make it mean something.
Too many just take the lies of either sides propaganda and make the whole process suck.

[snagglepuss]

53. You're spot on. I hadn't thought about this incident this way but there is a

appauling lack of general knowledge. Being interested and motivated in general interest learning seems to be less important to alot of people.

[eilen]

11. What did she die of?

Was she having an allergic reaction? Just wondering. It is odd for such a young woman, particularly pregnant to just collapse and die so quickly. Very sad for her, her family and community.

[kestrel91316]

13. I am gonna ask now - was she black? And are they white??

Was she perhaps poorly dressed, or spoke differently than suburban whites do, or something else that made them decide she was unworthy of their concern? Was she obviously poor or poorly educated?

[Gwendolyn]

14. All concerned are/were black. And it's a stupid question for obvious reasons. n/t

[kestrel91316]

15. It's NOT stupid. Some whites are blatantly racist and it affects their every move.

And yes, I'M white.

[vadawg]

17. some of every group are blatantly racist, if the women who died was white would that make the emts

racists or just assholes...

[Gwendolyn]

18. And if it were the case, do you think you'd be the one to have the eureka moment.

You obviously don't live in NYC. The difference in skin color would have been the first thing blasted across the globe. Old Al would have taken to the streets.

Sometimes people are just POSs, regardless of their skin color. It truly happens.

[Pithlet]

30. You know, your and vdawg's kneejerk reaction to her post would make sense

If she had just automatically jumped to the conclusion it was racism. But she didn't. She questioned the possibility. And whenever there is such an awful act and one doesn't know the races involved, it makes sense to question whether it's a possibility. Yeah, people can be cruel assholes for no other reason than they're jerks. But they can also be cruel because they're racist. It truly happens. I do the same thing when I hear about an absolutely appalling act that makes absolutely no sense in a why-would-they-do-such-a-thing way, but I don't know the particulars of the people above. I consider the possibility that racism was a motivation. Because it truly happens.

[Gwendolyn]

34. We really don't know if the EMTs are assholes or if they're just scapegoats.

The investigation will bring that to light. In the meantime, the facts are that two dispatchers were getting their bagels when a woman collapsed, having trouble breathing. They had no equipment with them, and the female dispatcher called 911. It seems from the phone call, that the situation was deemed "low priority." And were they reallt nasty and "cold" about it, or is that the way it's now being interpreted as everyone jumps on the blame bandwagon?

As I said below, it seems unlikely to me the kind of racists who would be okay with killing people would seek employment as NYC EMTs as they're required to perform their duties in every diverse pocket of the community.

[Pithlet]

40. You know, your opinion on the matter is perfectly reasonable and understandable.

But so is the the view that maybe, just maybe, they were possibly cruel heartless bastard that had no bussiness being EMTS. That does happen. I just don't get the need for some people to jump on every single person who ever brings up the possibility of racism, and shout them down as if the problem doesn't exist. I don't get it and I never will. You know, if you are privy to more facts that make it less possible, it's perfectly okay to point those facts out without making out the person who questioned the possibility to be a knee-jerk "race card" thrower. If you want to give the benefit of the doubt, that's fine. But really. The story isn't looking good for them.

[Kickin_Donkey]

48. Good response.

It was a valid question. This is a racist society, so more often than not there is a racial angle. Not always, but often. These people that deny racism are well ... maybe they're racists or intolerant.

Then you have the clod in this same thread -- don't know why he's on DU, really, because he's never uttered a liberal position as far as I've seen -- whose only comeback is that there are racist people of all colors. That doesn't mean anything and totally neglects the power relationships and history of this country. Black racism against whites is not a problem in this country because blacks in general have no power over whites. Yet these buffoons on this thread take the side of white "victims."

:puke:

[Gwendolyn]

52. It's okay to disagree and disagree we do.

I certainly didn't mean to shout anyone down as it was only one comment, but I'll take it back. It's just almost funny to me to think that anyone would look at a story coming out of NYC and not realize that if there was even a smidgeon of race involved that it would be exposed big time. Bloomberg would have watched his tongue so as not to create a riot and the focus of his outrage would have been quite different. I have no doubt that there would already be three heated threads here on DU and can't imagine that anyone just tuning in could miss any of it. But anyhoo.

Yes, I'm going to give the two EMTs the benefit of the doubt for now. Depending on the news rag, you'll get how they coldly walked out from one, while another quotes workers as saying that the two explained why they couldn't get involved and called 911. Also, having lived in NYC for a looong time, I can vouch for the slimyness of our politicians as well as the media circus this place can be at times.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

33. So are some blacks, asians, etc. It was also a fair question to ask

[vadawg]

16. not really a stupid question if one is looking to try to accuse one group of people of not helping

due to race, seems a lot of people dont realise that some people are just asses regardless of the colour of their skin etc etc...

[Gwendolyn]

20. See my reply... we are one. :-)

[Pithlet]

25. Some people are assses. And some people are racist. Racist people do exist.

They aren't fairy tales.

[vadawg]

26. yup and they come in all shapes and colours, but not everything is about race

seems that some people always want it to be that way though ala the sharptons of the world...

[Pithlet]

27. Not everything is about race does not mean racism doesn't exist.

Therefore the original question was not a stupid one.

[Gwendolyn]

28. We would have heard about it already if there was a difference in race.

Seeking employment as a NYC EMT would be an extremely poor choice for a racist. The city is so diverse you'd have to be touching and helping the people you despise all day long. I don't see it at all.

[Pithlet]

32. That's pretty weak.

No racists in the NYC EMTs. Impossible! And we would have heard about it already, in a story that just broke? Maybe. But not necessarily. If this is the very first link that many of us have seen, many of us may not have.

[Gwendolyn]

38. The woman died Dec 9th. The story is days old. Even if you first read about it at this link...

there would have been a prominent line in the copy drawing your attention to the fact that the EMTs were white and the deceased woman black.

[Pithlet]

39. Day old tea. Sorry. Just because you think they would have made a story doensn't make it so. n/t

[snagglepuss]

54. I don't think it's a stupid.. I thought it was wierd that it wasn't mentioned.

This is not to say I don't in some respects agree with you however its a situation where you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[WI_DEM]

22. If they are cleared and reinstated they are going to have to deal with co-workers who

apparently feel they were cold blooded. The thing is they should have stayed with the woman until an ambulence arrived and done what they could to comfort her.

[unblock]

29. actually, that is what the patient's co-workers should have done (and probably did)

the question regarding the emts is should they have done something more, given that they happened to be there and happened to have a license.

in my own training as an emt (in new jersey, not new york), i was specifically instructed NOT to take on a patient if i was not dispatched unless i was comfortable taking on all the risks *personally* in terms of potential germs, violence, legal liability, and so on. in fact i was instructed that non-emts had it better off legally than licensed emts and therefore i should be VERY reluctant to take on a patient (again, unless i was officially dispatched).

laws in new york might be different, and while the dipatchers in this case certainly should have had shown a better attitude, it's still not clear to me that they were doing anything other than following their training.


personally, had this happened to me while in new jersey when my license was still active, i would avoided taking on the patient, but i would have called 911 and i would have taken identification and history from the patient's co-workers in order to help the officially dispatched crew when it arrived.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

36. They were dispatchers in uniform and on the clock. They should have dispatched themselves.

All kidding aside, did your training tell you not to help a patient while in uniform and on the clock? I find that hard to believe. It might make sense if you were off duty ... but ON duty?

So if I'm at lunch sitting at a table full of uniformed EMTs on their lunch break and I start to choke, I better hope some civilian learned the Heimlich maneuver in public school?

[unblock]

43. i've never heard of a uniform for dispatchers.

and they were on break, meaning off the clock.

depending on the laws in the state, if non-dispatched emts take on personal liability when they voluntarily take on a patient, then YES, you better hope a layperson knows cpr.


the REALITY is that many emts will ignore their training and the law and go ahead and try to help the patient, and usually nothing comes of it, perhaps even if there is an adverse outcome. but there are enough lawsuits and more than enough FEAR or lawsuits to put a serious damper on what would otherwise be considered expected behavior for trained professionals.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

45. You've never heard of a uniform for dispatchers?

Because maybe I thought I was losing my mind, I googled "ems dispatcher" under images and most that came up were in uniform. Then I remembered a customer I had who was a dispatcher and he always visited me in uniform on his way to work.

The fact of the matter is they were on duty and a union coffee break doesn't change that (even if they were in fact swiped out - which has yet to be determined).

[unblock]

47. well of course if you google for pictures they're going to have uniforms

most if not all dispatchers need to have completed at least some field time at some point and therefore will have uniforms from their field days, and when getting their picture taking will don their uniforms even if it's not current or appropriate or needed for their job as dispatcher.

state law or department policy can vary i suppose, but there's nothing inherent about being a dispatcher that indicates the need for a uniform.

in this particular case, the facts haven't been publicized, so i don't know if they were required to wear uniforms or if they actually were wearing uniforms. all that i've seen is that the workers in the store knew them to be emts because they were regular customers from the same building.

[omega minimo]

41. THIS is the Reagan Legacy

[hayu_lol]

50. Question for any EMTs...

EMTs generally have radios which they use to direct contact a trauma center. Seems that these two did not have radios--hence the telephone call made to 9-11.

As has been stated, they had no equipment, could not get bp/breathing status,heart rate and the other info the trauma center would need.

Sounds like we still don't have enough info to base an educated opinion.

[Pithlet]

51. The story states that they left the scene after they made the call.

They just left her there. Leaving the scene is what is appalling to me. Not staying to make sure her condition didn't deteriorate further. And I don't think you need equipment to perform CPR. At the very least they could have stayed with her until help arrived. That shows a stunning level of indifference, to me. If that detail of the story is inaccurate, then maybe that changes things. But if not, then I just can't think of any excuse for that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Three things, since I WAS an EMT at one time

1.-In California they would NOT be protected by the Good Samaritan Law... so if the same applies in NY, they could have feared a lawsuit.

2.- On the other hand, what they did in my view falls under Patient Abandonment, though more than one dispatcher is afraid of getting involved.

3.- I have been in situations where UNIFORMED EMS personnel from private companies do NOT attend to patients that happen in front of them.

4.- I have taken care of patients and lawsuits be damned.