Why mandates are being shoved down our throats.

[ipaint]

Private insurance companies push for 'individual mandate'

"Private insurers lost an estimated 9 million customers between 2000 and 2007. In many cases, people lost coverage because they or their employers could no longer afford it as premium increases outpaced wage growth and inflation.

Recession job losses are adding to the toll. Some economists estimate that every percentage-point increase in the jobless rate adds 1 million people to the ranks of the uninsured.
The industry's real trouble begins in 2011, when 79 million baby boomers begin turning 65. Health insurers stand to lose a huge slice of their commercially insured enrollment (estimated at 162 million to 172 million people) over the next two decades to Medicare, the government-funded health insurance program for seniors.

"The rate of aging far and away exceeds the birth rate," said Sheryl Skolnick, a CRT Capital Group healthcare investment analyst. "That's got to be very scary. . . . This is the biggest fight for survival managed care has ever faced, at least since they went bankrupt in the late '80s."

...The industry fears that the government would force lower fees on hospitals and physicians, enabling a public health insurance plan to offer consumers a better bargain.
That, they say, would make it hard for private companies to compete for customers. Insurers also fear that a public option could easily be converted later into a single-payer healthcare system.
Health insurers don't see a public plan "as the nose of the camel under the tent; they see it as the front half of the camel under the tent," said Robert Laszewski, a former insurance company executive and industry consultant.
"They are interested in 45 million new customers," he said, "but the first thing in everybody's mind is preserving their right to do business in a way that can be profitable and meet shareholder needs."

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/07/business/fi-healthcare7?pg=3


Wake up, the only people playing three dimensional chess are the ins. companies.

WE ARE SAVING THEM.

[FreakinDJ]

1. Or because 20% of hospital cost go to cover the Uninsured

I know it so very Republican of me to say that - but for some one who has been paying for Health Insurance for my family for the last 20 some odd years it makes me wonder "If I had applied that same 20% cost on my Home Mortgage would my house be paid off by now"

Fat chance we'll ever see the discount if eveyone buys in thou

[Oregone]

27. link? I consistently see 8%. Maybe 20% goes to shareholder dividends

And that 8% savings could be offset due to a rise in premiums from guarenteeing demand (see Mass for example, with highest family premiums in the nation at almost $14K a year)

http://www.kff.org/healthreform/upload/7904-02.pdf

[FreakinDJ]

45. I saw it on Sen. Feinstien's website

In 2000, emergency physicians reported that 61% of their bad debt was related to EMTALA mandated care. For 27.7% of emergency physicians, EMTALA was the only source of bad debt. In utilizing the data from the Medical Expenditure Panel Survey from 1996-1998, it was determined that the percentage of total charges paid by Medicaid, Medicare, and the uninsured remained constant, while the mean reimbursement for privately insured patients declined from 77.7% to 65.7%.3 The MEPS data would suggest that the contribution of the commercial insurance companies to bad debt is increasing and that emergency physicians are less able to cost shift to offset the uncompensated care burden.
http://www.acep.org/practres.aspx?LinkIdentifier=id&id=30308&fid=910&Mo=No&taxid=117956

[girl gone mad]

61. The uninsured are often subsidizing the insured.

Ever seen what the hospital bill looks like without insurance? I know an uninsured person who has been paying a hospital bill for the last decade.

You can negotiate it down, but not nearly as much as insurance companies can.

Most hospitals won't even take uninsured except for basic care, unless they are subsidized county hospitals or charity hospitals or unless the person can prove they have means.

Have you considered the fact that lowered demand from uninsured people choosing to go without care or being denied treatment also keeps bills and insurance rates down?

[tridim]

2. The bill is going to pass, and people in need understand that it is a good bill.

If you still believe the crap in that article, that's your problem.

This HCR Bill: 45,000,000 Get CHC-Single-Payer Vermont Health Care
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/12/22/818060/-This-HCR-Bill:-45,000,000-Get-Single-Payer-Vermont-Health-Care

[EFerrari]

6. That diary is an argument for single payer over a PO n/t

[tridim]

13. The article describes what is ACTUALLY IN THE BILL.

It's not just an argument.

It is much better than the PO as a foundation for single payer.

[EFerrari]

30. It describes Bernie Sanders amendment, isn't that right?

What will you bet that it stays in the bill? Okay, we can't really bet. I wouldn't bet anything, I'm sorry.

[tridim]

34. It's in the bill that will be passed tomorrow morning.

[EFerrari]

38. I sincerely hope you're not disappointed. n/t

[tridim]

39. Of course I wont be. It's a brilliant flanking of the GOP/conservadem obstruction.

What we're actually getting is much better than any PO that has been proposed.

[EVDebs]

46. I read the DailyKos article and this is WONDERFUL ! Thanks

Thanks for posting this tridim ! If all of this is true this is one hellova miracle pulled off by a dead guy (Teddy) and Sen's Reid, Sanders, Wyden, Cardin, and Reps Clyburn and Pelosi.

[Hello_Kitty]

7. These clinics are a good thing but they are NOT single payer health insurance.

This is the latest sales pitch by the cheerleaders and it's a dud. If the clinics were truly a threat to insurers, they'd be fighting them tooth and nail. Most of the services people will be getting their are basic primary ones and they'll be paying money that would go to co-pays anyway.

[tridim]

16. All I can say is read more about it, you don't get it yet.

This is THE stepping stone for single payer.

[polpilot]

24. Obviously Howard Dean doesn't 'get it' either. He probably doesn't possess the analytical gifts

necessary to understand how good this is. Health insurance stocks 'get it'.

[tridim]

25. Howard Dean is not on your side. You don't get that either.

Dean likes what Sanders added to the bill.

For the life of me I can't understand why you don't?

[polpilot]

35. You're 100% correct. I don't 'get' that Howard Dean is 'not on my side'.

I'll add that to my 'I don't understand list'.

[juno jones]

58. And will the clinics give low income people health care on a parity with

private clinics?

I go to a community clinic. they tell you right up front that there are certain medicines and treatments they don't cover.


Pain management's a biggie. Mostly because all us poor people are junkies just waiting to happen, dontcha know? Also suspect are muscle relaxers and anti-spasmodics. And the well-off wonder why us po'folk drink beer and smoke pot. We don't have medicine to treat our injuries because we aren't trustworthy enough humans on account of our income to be given what upper-class people get for their pain (and canadians buy OTC).

There several other things, mostly medical tests that you have to referred out to a private office for, and many of those tests aren't covered by the clinic's sliding-scale discount. For example,I can irradiate myself on the cheap with a mammogram, but would have to pay full boat elsewhere for a better, cleaner diagnostic with less chance of false postive.

If they can allieviate the two-tiered approach, good for them, but I ain't holding my breath.


I will add: They've been decent about answering my questions, and they have helped me diagnose two minor problems which have been ignored for years by other docs. I am grateful, but I want full care without discrimination. To be treated as a person, not an income bracket.

[laughingliberal]

70. Well, then I guess I have a problem

because I do believe that job losses and employers who have dropped coverage has resulted in shrinking customer pools for the private health insurance companies. I also do believe that large numbers of the population are aging and will be falling off there rolls as they become eligible for Medicare. And I think this mandate is a bailout for an industry that would have died a natural death without the bill. That does not mean nothing should have been done because they have been making up for decreased numbers of customers by raising premiums which would continue. Problem is I see it continuing, anyway. The only part of the bill meant to control their premium costs is the MLR provision and Wendall Potter has been more than clear that 85% is the level at which they find it easiest to manipulate the numbers. He has also said there is no one in federal government with the expertise to monitor this and know what they are looking at. Add to that there were no mechanisms put in place for enforcement of the loophole riddled insurance 'reforms.'

This bill just props up the for-profits for a while to make up for their shrinking customer base, basically a preemptive bail out for their looming crisis. It also further enshrines them and sets the stage for a harder push for privatization of Medicare. We took $500 billion out of Medicare. $177 billion came out of Medicare advantage programs. The balance of $323 billion will be going to the private insurance companies in the form of subsidies for people being forced to buy their product. We are not moving further from the for profit private insurance model but closer.

It is not "you have a problem" It is we all have a problem. Some of us can see it.

[Neecy]

3. "Meet shareholder needs"

Great, I love that a percentage of my tax dollars that will go to subsidies will be pocketed by the uber-wealthy investor class.

This is so corrupt.

[Echo In Light]

4. By law corporations are required to put shareholder interests above the public trust/common good

[Lasher]

66. But they don't.

They routinely put the interests of senior management ahead of shareholders.

[chimpymustgo]

40. Du'er Junkdrawer summed it up best: "MAKE them eat cake!"

[begin_within]

5. Why are private insurance companies' financial problems anyone's problem but their own?

They are private businesses, so why don't they fix their problems by themselves? Is this another bailout of private business by the public trust?

[dgibby]

12. Yes, you've hit the nail on the head.

That's what we should call it from now on:

Health Insurance Industry Bailout Plan

[tridim]

21. See post #2 nt

[girl gone mad]

62. 78% of the American people oppose mandates.

If you really support Obama, you should be fighting against the mandates tooth and nail, because this will be an albatross around his neck in 2012.

[ixion]

8. Yes. It's a crappy insurance industry-written bill, and

I will fight it tooth and nail.

Turning insurance agencies into quasi federal agencies with the power of IRS for enforcement is freakin' insane.

[tridim]

17. See post #2 nt

[ixion]

41. The needs of the Many outweigh the needs of the Few n/t

[Greyhound]

9. You've nailed the real issue right here.

Regardless of what bones they end up inserting into this monstrosity, the bottom line and only real issue is that it establishes the existence of these parasites in perpetuity.

There is no rule, law, or regulation that these professional parasites cannot circumvent or buy off through our system of legalized bribery, so the only pillar of this so-called reform that matters is that it forces participation of the citizens in this 3-card Monty scheme.

This bill provides no health care to anyone.

[tridim]

18. See post #2 nt

[Greyhound]

26. Bones tossed to the growling dogs, bones that can easily be taken away at their whim.

Yes those things are good, but they're just the dressing to sucker us into this Perpetual Insurance Profits Protection Act. Once this is done we will be saddled with this albatross around our necks forever. Once the Republiks come back into power benefits will be cut, "costs" will be the excuse to gut SS & Medicare and get that last pile of money into the hands of Wall Street.

We'll end up with less care, lower standards, workers stretched to the breaking point and beyond, and we will be left without the means to do anything about it.

But hey, nobody could have ever predicted this.

[tridim]

28. Soon you will realize that it is you who is the sucker.

Here's a hint. The MSM, the GOP, the teabaggers and RW hate radio are lying to you suckers.

[Greyhound]

31. So your belief substitutes as argument.

"Trust them, they have our interests at heart."

Well that's worked so well so far, why change it now...
:eyes:

[tridim]

33. Read the bill.

They have our interests at heart, and on paper, and very soon it will be signed into law.

[Greyhound]

36. have read the summary and nothing in this changes the facts.

The bottom line remains that we will be legally and perpetually bound to pay insurance companies regardless of what is done to "The Act" through subsequent legislatures and the inevitable court cases.

[tridim]

37. And it will be affordable for everyone for the first time in our history.

I'm guessing you agree with the GOP who claim this bill is unconstitutional?

[Raineyb]

43. Define affordable. Because paying a percentage of what I make to buy

insurance that has 10000 dollars in deductibles and doesn't cover basic doctor visits is NOT my definition of affordable.

[ipaint]

49. Especially these folks and their elite ilk.

"Just to put this boon to health insurance stocks in perspective: according an Indianapolis Star article from June, Evan Bayh's wife, Susan, "owns from $500,001 to $1 million in employee stock in WellPoint, the Indianapolis-based insurance giant on whose board she sits." That would mean that the value of her personal holdings in that one health insurance company alone, in the last six weeks alone (since Lieberman and her husband began menacing the public option), would have increased by a value of between $125,000 and $250,000. As part of the bonanza of health care industry board positions she magically received since her husband became a Senator, Susan Bayh is given a quarter-million dollars each year in stocks and stock options from Wellpoint. That's just a microcosm for considering how well Obama's so-called "special interests" have done as a result of this health care bill."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=389&topic_id=7306998&mesg_id=7307578


The working class bails out the dwindling insurance mega-giants (free market my ass) and as a result gets to choose from bottom tiered, class based ins. plans that financially prevent real access to health care through co-pays and deductibles, and the elite who shoved through this giveaway get their choice of gold plans for their families because their income on investments in the industry protect them from the financial jackboot the working class must now suffer under.

Your feeble attempts to pretend this is some sort of gateway to universal care are pathetic.


"Ed Hanway, CEO of Cigna, one of the nation’s largest health insurance companies, will step down at the end of this year, in just over a week. When he does, he’ll get $73,200,000 as compensation for a job well done."

http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/20405


Go ahead tell all of us about the benevolent ins. cartel and their good intentions.

[Odin2005]

64. A broken clock is right twice a day.

The state has no moral right to FORCE me to buy the product of a private corporation.

You are defending FASCISM, you are no liberal.

[Raineyb]

42. The only thing they are interested in is the profits of those who OWN them

That would be the insurance companies, the pharmaceutical companies, and the the other leeches in the system. They are also interested in holding on to power at any cost. Legislating slavery to an entity which makes its money DENYING care and using government agencies to enforce it is NOT in our interest at all unless you think fascism is in our interest.

And if you think they give a damn about us I have a bridge in Brooklyn to see you really cheap.

[slipslidingaway]

10. knr - we will be strengthening their thinning bottom line, we ...

need to think how the boomers play a role going forward. Estimates are that starting in 2011 the boomers begin to retire, Medicare enrollment will swell from 46 million to 79 million over the next two decades.

No negotiation for Medicare drug prices in this bill and they will use Medicare savings to partially offset the cost of HC reform, all during the time the boomers move to Medicare.

:shrug:

[Democrats_win]

11. Looks a little like bush's privatizing Social Security: giving our money to Fraud Street.

The insurance companies will invest some of the money they get from people--as they always do. Then Fraud Street will steal the money like they always do. Then the insurance companies will demand premium hikes to compensate for their investment losses--as they always do.

We are screwed by corporate America and it's Fraud Street--like always.

[tridim]

19. See post #2 nt

[havocmom]

14. Saving Wall Street (again) too.

Consider: what do insurance companies do with the premiums we pay? Invest in the Street.

This is an end run around the fact that voters did not bend over and let the money changers have Social Security withholdings paid directly to them. The Insurers are the new money launderers for the $ Wall Street needs to keep the ponzi punking afloat.

Big Business is getting to notice that a dollar turns over many times. They figured how to shuffle paper and make the dollar flip several times, for them. But they still fail to notice the dollar turns more times if it gets into the hands of middle class and workers. They don't want the dollar getting there at all.

[dgibby]

23. You forgot to add Congress and the WH

They invest in the Street and Congress and the WH.:grr: :nuke:

[OHdem10]

15. Without a P0, this is another Bailout for Insurance Companies

[tridim]

20. See post #2 nt

[Raineyb]

44. Repeating the same bullshit doesn't make it any more true. n/t

[tridim]

55. It's in the bill and it's going to be law within a few days. That is NOT bullshit.

Quit lying about reality, it makes you look like an idiot.

[bvar22]

22. Why not?

Wall Street got their Trillion Dollars.
The Health Insurance Industry deserves their Trillion Dollars too.
You wouldn't want them to feel Left Out.

[glitch]

32. Step right up! Who's next. They've bailed out these secters: military, finance, insurance

All in one year! That's a remarkable year of accomplishments. Now oil got bailed out during the Bush years, so most likely coal and nuclear are next at the trough.

Sooweeeeee!

[suffragette]

68. Yep, it's the Bail Out Ball

By invitation only and you know, we aren't on that list.

Hope all is well with you, glitch.


:hi:

[glitch]

73. All's well. Very different, but life is a roller coaster sometimes.

How are you and beautiful Seattle?

[suffragette]

78. Was incredibly busy the past few months

At sister's for Christmas.
Rainier was beautiful today - snowy and glowy.
If you ever make it back up here, I'll treat you to some coffee!

[unblock]

29. it's hardly 3d chess. it's really quite straightforward.

they get a ginormous subsidy and a "seat at the table" and obama gets their agreement not to declare holy war on the legislation and do to him what they did to the clintons.

[ipaint]

50. Your right but when you are years behind playing

tiddly winks it sure does seem like it.

[hunter]

47. Their financial tower was about to collapse.

This props it up a bit longer. Just like the banking bailouts.

"Too big to fail" means "Too Important to Wall Street."

Unfortunately the longer we keep propping the tower up with these very dirty tweaks and fixes, the bigger the ultimate collapse will be. Instead of single aspects of the economy failing somewhat gracefully in a repairable manner we will have the entire economy failing catastrophically.

[fascisthunter]

48. It's really amazing how politics warps truth

principles be damned...

[ipaint]

51. Many in Congress Hold Stakes in Health Industry

WASHINGTON — As President Obama and Congress intensify the push to overhaul health care in the coming week, the political and economic force of that industry is well represented in the financial holdings of many lawmakers and others with a say on the legislation, according to new disclosure forms.
Representative Dave Camp of Michigan, the senior Republican on the Ways and Means Committee, one of three panels in the House with jurisdiction over health care, reported at least tens of thousands of dollars in health-related interests, including the medical technology giant Medtronic, the drug maker Wyeth and the insurance company Aetna.

...Senator Christopher J. Dodd, Democrat of Connecticut, leads the health committee in consultation with Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Dodd’s wife, Jackie Clegg Dodd, is a member of the board and a shareholder in several health-related companies, including Cardiome Pharma, Javelin Pharmaceuticals and Brookdale Senior Living.

Senator Tom Coburn of Oklahoma, a Republican on the health committee, is an obstetrician with income from his clinic in Muskogee. The wife of Representative Wally Herger of California, the senior Republican on the health subcommittee of the Ways and Means panel, works for Catholic Healthcare West, while the wife of Representative Joe L. Barton of Texas, the top Republican on the House Energy and Commerce Committee, works for JPS Health Network.

Mr. Obama’s chief adviser on health care, Nancy-Ann DeParle, also filed disclosure forms with the White House. Ms. DeParle, who served in the Clinton administration, went on to lucrative positions on the boards of health companies and as director of a private-equity firm with health investments, earning more than $2 million from 2008 to this year, according to forms signed on May 13.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/14/us/politics/14cong.html

How nice of them to fix these companies up with our tax dollar so their investments don't tank by giving them the only bargaining chip we have to force real reform- the mandate.

[bvar22]

52. But wait a minute! Didn't you "See Post #2"?

:rofl:

[tridim]

53. Did you? Do you disagree that it's a good thing? If so, why?

[ipaint]

54. What does it have to do with the massive funneling of money to ins. companies.

I mean really do we have to hand a trillion in taxpayer dollars and our only bargaining tool to get a 14 billion dollar return.

Seriously?

[tridim]

56. Can you answer my question?

[ipaint]

59. Your question, well it's ridiculous. Sorry, it shows a willingness

to be a corporate tool. The few good things in this bill are put there specifically for folks like you to use as a battering ram to assist the elite in their ongoing theft of the public wealth.

At some point people have to say enough is enough. Those who run behind the bloated corporate elite scooping up the few crumbs they purposely drop and then turn around and fling them at the folks telling the truth accusing them of heartlessness are toadies.

It was the same with nafta, welfare reform, deregulation and now health care reform. Same arguments, same m.o., same bullshit "questions".

[Romulox]

57. It's just the latest corporate bailout. Rec. nt

[grahamhgreen]

60. 1 TRILLION dollars every five years to big insurance. That's what this bill guarantees them.

45,000,000 customers

x $375/month

= 16.875 billion per month

= 202 billion/year

= 1.01 Trillion Dollars every 5 years


It is a scam and a rip-off.

It is a complete gift to insurance.

This is why their stock prices have gone through the roof!


We must kill the mandate or bring back the PO or Medicare in committee.

[Odin2005]

63. This is FASCISM!

[Laelth]

65. k&r for the truth, however depressing. n/t

Kill the bill.

Forcing people to buy insurance is no more the answer to a failed health care system than forcing people to buy houses is the solution to homelessness.

:dem:

-Laelth

[smiley_glad_hands]

67. They have to increase the insurance pool to pay for pre existing conditions and

the end of lifetime caps. Its not rocket science people.

I swear some of you wish bush was still president.

[ipaint]

71. I swear someone isn't aware

of the insurance companies massive criminal activities of the last 30 years and the fact that banning the pre-existing conditions abuse will not stop it from happening.

Who needs lifetime caps when you have annual ones.

Insurance companies make money by denying care. That isn't going to change with a mandate. EVER.

[Cleobulus]

75. Best way to do that is to have ONE insurance company that EVERYONE buys in to.

Not hundreds of different companies that will, at best, only see marginal increases in their individual insurance pools.

[GreenTea]

69. A republican begging for government help, when it's the minority repugs in the CA legislature that

has caused the problem signing loyalty oaths to republican pig Grover Norquist...

Could anyone imagine a democratic governor receiving any government help when Bush was president, fuck no!

Arnold's best best bet is to switch parties.

[ipaint]

72. kick

so folks can see where there taxpayer money is going and why.

[fascisthunter]

74. YAY for the Bill!!!!! We are getting Screwed even more now... YAY!

"Thank you sir, may I have another?"

[invictus]

76. K&R

[krabigirl]

77. It's horrible. A huge failure.