Calif. county orders removal of religious decorations from county Christmas trees

[The Straight Story]

Calif. county orders removal of religious decorations from county Christmas trees

SANTA ROSA, Calif. (AP) — California's Sonoma County has ordered officials to remove angels, stars and other religious symbols from Christmas trees in county buildings over concerns they violate the Constitution.

County Administrator Chris Thomas issued the order Monday to managers of all 26 county departments, saying it is not the government's role to endorse religion.

The Supreme Court has ruled that governments can celebrate Christmas but cannot support Christian doctrine.

Thomas' order followed a complaint by Santa Rosa resident Irv Sutley, an atheist who heads the county's socialist Peace and Freedom Party. He says the government should not show favoritism to any religion.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-us-government-christmas,0,7545194.story

[msongs]

1. xmas trees are pagan, not christian ( all the christian stuff is reworked paganism anyway) nt

[stopbush]

2. Paganism is religion as well, isn't it?

I don't see what the problem is with stars. Plenty of non-religious enterprises use the star as a symbol.

[izquierdista]

4. Good, I'll put this star up

[JDPriestly]

8. True, but then so is Christmas in general

It is unlikely that Jesus was born at Christmas. So, in a sense the whole holiday is about winter solstice.

But I still love Christmas, and for people living in cold climates, Christmas relieves (or sometimes worsens) the doldrums that come as the days get shorter and the nights longer. I agree: "Tis the season to be merry."

And the creche and manger and story of the birth of Jesus is a wonderful reminder of the humanity of Jesus who, if you are Jewish, can be viewed as a good Rabbi, if you are not religious at all, can be looked at as a wise teacher at a difficult time in history and if you are a Christian as the savior and bringer of a message of love and hope.

Because Jesus reminds us of the importance of love, acceptance and sharing as opposed to just following rules in a rigid fashion, everybody wins at Christmas.

[tularetom]

3. Pretty goddamn silly IMO

The O"Reilly's of the world getting their panties in a bunch over "Happy Holidays" is the most asinine thing I've seen in quite a while.

But this isn't far behind.

[bobburgster]

5. More fuel for the whackos!

[Hekate]

6. Irv, you're giving atheists and your P&F Party a bad name. Grinch Award!

Angels and stars? That's not exactly a Nativity Scene in front of City Hall.

Hekate

[msanthrope]

20. How are angels and stars not part of the Nativity myth?

Didn't an angel herald Mary's impregnation? Didn't a star rest above the creche?

Darn those pesky atheists for not being nice enough to the majority......

[Hekate]

24. Well-named, aren't you? This is a midwinter festival of light with deep Pagan roots...

... in the Northern Hemisphere. The tree is Pagan. The angels are transcultural. Stars exist in every night sky. Midwinter is dark and the nights are long and cold. People enjoy bringing light and color into the darkness with their decorations. They like family gatherings. Every element of the Christmas story and every item associated with the celebration has its roots in other, older religions--and that's not to disrespect the mythology around the birth of Jesus, it's only to point out how deep this goes in the human psyche, how many thousands of years BCE we have celebrated Winter Solstice.

Which part of this do you want to take away, once you've removed the Nativity scene? Stars and angels, because they point to the story you object to? The tree, because it's been co-opted by the Christians? Santa Claus, because he makes a late appearance in the mythology, and although a secular figure himself, makes his rounds on the night of the festival you find obnoxious? "Jingle Bells" and "Deck the Halls" because, while secular like Santa, they arise from the same tradition?

I'm quite in favor of keeping the Nativity scenes off public property. Same goes with carving the 10 Commandments into the wall of the County Courthouse, unless (as some do) it is surrounded by scenes of other great lawgivers, thus giving it a kind of historical context. I quite understand why non-Christian parents don't want religious Christmas hymns taught in public school --but again, there's songbooks full of secular seasonal carols that lift the spirits.

Unless you intend to scour every reference to any religion or mythology from every public place in this country, learn to relax the humorlessness a bit and enjoy the holiday. Not everything in life is a plot to deny you your freedom from religion.

Hekate

[DavidDvorkin]

7. Good for Irv

America needs more courageous atheists and fewer apologists for the dismantling of the wall of separation.

[Nye Bevan]

21. Are you OK with Christmas Day being a Federal Holiday?

Any problem with a Government owned website mentioning Christmas Day, and declaring it to be a Federal Holiday?

Wouldn't a *really* courageous atheist be suing to end this presumably unconstitutional tradition?

Obviously such a principled stance would result in a huge amount of public ridicule and would attract almost no support. But isn't that what taking a courageous stance is really all about? As opposed to going for soft targets like stars on Christmas trees?


http://www.opm.gov/Operating_Status_Schedules/fedhol/2009.asp

[DavidDvorkin]

23. I have never been okay with it.

[Goldstein1984]

9. It does seem silly on first glance, but separation of church and

state is an ongoing battle. The Christmas tree does have a pagan origin--Egyptian, I believe. Christians in this country considered it a pagan symbol until it became popular in Great Britain in the mid-1800s. But now it fully represents Christianity among Christians, and because of that it offends many non-Christians.

I think that silly events like this reflect on how attached Americans are to the idea of religion and the primitive rituals that represent religion. Even though many just go through the motions, or don't even bother to do that, while holding onto the emotional lifeboat of eternal life and the illusion of control that religion provides.

I don't think the nation is mature enough yet to consider Atheists a minority. We still need to identify bigotry with racism. In many ways, the passive bigotry against non-believers has much in common with the bigotry against the GLBT community--it's based on perceptions of morality, rather that perceptions of superiority, although the bigots would argue that moral superiority is what it is all about.

In the end, it's a pity that with so many common problems, people waste time fighting over silly stuff like what kinds of ornaments can be put on a big tree a few weeks of the year.

[David__77]

10. I agree with this ruling.

The should be an iron wall separating religious influence from the state. However, I do not believe that religious entities should be free from any legal restrictions.

[Igel]

11. Good.

In that case you're firmly for this Friday being a regular work day instead of a federal holiday. I'll look forward to getting my mail, and will remain confused as to why the Senate so fervently doesn't want to be in session on a day that it cannot acknowledge as having religious significance.

Same for that 4th work-Thursday in November.

And then there's Reid, with what he said, essentially, "We're Xians, it's Xmas, and let's do the Xian thing." Jeesh! Sorry, let's try that one without a religious bias. Crap!

I vote that we have mandatory days off on August 15th and January 15th to replace them. As for Reid's anti-Constitutional outburst, what can I do? I live in Tx.

On the other hand, your belief is fine and your business, but let's not let it influence government any more than anybody else's. Religious and other non-profits are subject to some legal restrictions, just not so many. Not when the government would be intruding and violating religious conscience without a compelling purpose.

[Sequoia]

12. Ha, you should see the outrage about it in the Press Democrat today.

I think it's silly. The county offices are all going to be closed on the afternoon of the 24th anyway so no one will be around to see them. It's all a bunch of hype. Come on...a Star? Star of David, the Star on the flag of Turkey...stars are universal. SAVE THE STAR!!!!!

[Odin2005]

13. Good Ruling.

someone remind the religious nuts that Xmas trees are Pagan.

[rucky]

14. Take that, Christmas!

:evilgrin:

[anigbrowl]

15. Stars? GMAFB

I'm a happy atheist but this is ridiculous and counter-productive.

[Nye Bevan]

16. Putting a *star* on a Christmas Tree = "Supporting Christian Doctrine"?

Nuts like this give atheism a bad name.

[KoKo]

17. We used to have respect for Religious Differences in USA...Why has it come to this Crap?

:shrug:

[The Straight Story]

18. Differences = bad now, Diversity is best served by not having diversity publically

God forbid our kids/etc be exposed to diverse opinions/beliefs.

[Indenturedebtor]

27. So you think it's ok to make everyone pay for the endorsement of one religion over another?

How about we take 100 dollars from you to put up buddha statues all over the city?

[VOX]

19. This is just plain silly. Christmas should be for everyone -- that's the whole flippin' idea, anyway

And "angels and stars" are religious symbols? A tad epheremal, perhaps, but this is really splitting hairs.

[The Straight Story]

22. Angels and stars scare some people, they freak out when they see them

Might make them have to admit some in their community are not like them. Diversity, it sucks.

[KoKo]

26. EVERYTHING...seems to scare some segment of our society these days...

I thought DIVERSITY meant INCLUSION.... I was so wrong. DIVERSITY means more SEGMENTATION with every group surging for their own segment of a dwindling "Pie Chart." :-(

[anigbrowl]

25. Well, this silliness was rescinded earlier this evening

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14059142
This morning Thomas rescinded his directive after conferring with Supervisor Shirlee Zane who took issue with the removal of the decorations. Thomas told department heads to "use their best judgment" on the decidedly divisive decoration dilemma that made international
news.
Zane told Thomas removing the stars and angels was "potentially a violation of the freedom of speech and the free exercise of religion."
Zane said she initially supported Thomas' decision to remove the stars and angels but she said she reconsidered her decision "after much input and contemplation."