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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 07:43 PM
Original message
Check in if you support a strong middle class!
Look, I care about poor people. To paraphrase Rachel, I AM poor people. I've been sporadically employed, mostly unemployed for the past almost 2 years. I'm getting less than $800 a month in UI benefits right now. But I'm not about to grab my pitchfork and a go after the people down the street who make $100k. Even if they are dicks who vote Republican. I'm noticing a disturbing level of animosity toward people who aren't making anywhere near a top marginal tax rate, especially in this health care debate. When, in another OP, I pointed out that people at 400% are going to get kind of screwed in the health care reform before Congress right now and would be far better off with single payer I got mostly supportive responses but quite a few that could be summed up as screw them, they're rich.

No, they're not. A person making $44k a year or a family making $88k may be doing better than most, but is not anywhere close to the top income bracket in this country. I'm not interested in raising the status of everyone below them on their backs, whether it's through a health care bill or anything else. Because the thing is, ever since Reagan, when taxes on the middle class - even the upper middle class - have been raised, it's been to give tax cuts to rich people. Remember when he doubled the payroll tax? Who benefited from that? And when Bill Clinton rolled back the marginal tax cuts on the wealthiest Americans and gave tax cuts to the middle class, the economy improved. Wages went up. I don't think he went far enough and he made some big mistakes too that had adverse long-term effects (NAFTA, financial deregulation), but it does show that taxing the super-rich at a fair rate while putting more money into the pockets of the working and middle class has no downside.

That's why I'm for taxing the shit out of the rich. Raise their marginal tax rates to at least what they were under Clinton, raise capital gains on Wall Street high rollers, close corporate and offshore loopholes, reinstate the estate tax, etc. THAT's progressive.

Redefining $44k a year as "rich" is exactly what the people at the top want us to do. Puts us at each other's throats for one thing, and during the last couple of boom cycles it had the added effect of making people think they were more affluent than they were and run up their credit to pursue what they thought was an affluent lifestyle. It's a win-win for the rich. It's exactly why douchebags like Ronald Brownstein write patronizing tripe about how "liberals" oppose health reform because we're rich, educated white people who don't care about the poor. We now have a false dichotomy where you can either care about the middle class or the poor, but not both. Bullshit on that.

Finally, you can't argue that the Federal Poverty Level is ridiculously low on one hand (as many here do) and then claim that people making 3 to 4X that amount are "rich". Come on! We should be angry at the fact that $44k a year is more than most Americans - who bust their asses as some of the most productive workers in the world - are making, with the cost of living what it is in this country. Instead people are acting like anyone who makes more than them is an asshole who needs to be brought down. Sorry, I can't get with that. Don't get me wrong, I would kill to make $44k a year right now. It's possible I may never make that much again in my life. But the person making that much is not my enemy. It's the people who want all of us to be in poverty and fighting over scraps who are.

Who's with me?



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Thickasabrick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm with ya Kitty!! They are trying to lower the bar so those of us
at the bottom rung won't feel so bad.
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MonteLukast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'm with you too!
:yourock:
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wtbymark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think everybody here at DU is with ya
but asking DU if they support the middle class, is like asking us if we like to breath air.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. You'd think that.
But it's not apparent from some of the posts I'm reading here lately.
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endless october Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. i'm definitely for a strong middle class
and a return to manufacturing in America.

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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. Completely self-serving, but I wholeheartedly agree.
I'm middle class and I support my continued survival :)
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Sometimes ya gotta be self-serving!
Glad you're middle class and hope to join your there someday! :toast:
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StarfarerBill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
7. Downward redistribution of wealth? Count me in.
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laughingliberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'm with you. The working and middle class are paying the same tax rate as those making a million
a year. We need to roll back the Bush tax cuts on those at $250,000 or over and significantly increase the tax on $1 million per year. Stifling those at $100,000 per year is sticking it to the people who will spend their money instead of hoarding it. This is where the Republican plans fail. They give tax breaks to the very wealthy who will not spend it and it will not benefit others. $100,000 and below, they are putting some back for retirement and spending enough to help out.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. Do we even have a middle class anymore? Don't admit we exist. They'll only want more.
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Berry Cool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
11. I am.
K&R. I agree, the rich don't HAVE to be the enemy. They are the enemy only if they hold the poor and middle class down. If they pay their fair taxes and do what they can to make the world better, three cheers for the rich.
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tonysam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
12. I made more than 44K, and it is no money at all
Edited on Wed Dec-23-09 08:31 PM by tonysam
I could barely keep my head above the water. It hardly qualifies as middle class, sorry, but it doesn't.

I couldn't buy a house with it, I couldn't buy a good car with it, and I had no savings.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. It doesn't.
Unfortunately, since Reagan we've been driving wages down with concomitant raises in the cost of living. People were substituting wages for credit and home values until it all came crashing down last year. I'm not for a return to the fake credit-based affluence of the recent past, but people need to make enough money to meet their needs and put some away for retirement.
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kiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. I'm just under $45,000 with a large student loan debt.
I can't get a house loan because of the size of my student loan, despite the fact that a house payment for a comparable place would be about half what I'm not paying for rent.

Yes, I'm middle class; no, I'm not among the wealthy.
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muntrv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
13. I am.
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
15. Excellent OP
Kicked, and recc'd.
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corpseratemedia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
16. k&r
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
17. Kick and Rec!!!
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knixphan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 10:06 PM
Response to Original message
18. COMPLETELY with you.
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
19. OK. Fine. You've forced my hand.
The tax proposals in the Senate Bill call for increased taxes on individuals earning above $200,000. So if you're at 1,700% of the poverty level, your Medicare taxes are going to nearly double. But if you're a single person earning that much, paying an extra $2 - $3,000 per year is not any great hardship. The tax burden is not falling where you think it is.

The numbers rattling around your head seem to be coming from a rightwing website called CNSNews.com -- and their analysis that assumes everyone on an employer health plan will be kicked off and forced to buy their own insurance. This is patently stupid because a) employers don't want to lose good people and b) most employees pay at least a portion (usually half) of the cost of their healthcare and so the numbers CNSNews cherry-picks from the OMB report are ridiculously overstated.

But beyond the numbers themselves is -- or at least should be -- a little common sense. Step away for the keyboard and ponder this for a moment. Do you really think....REALLY THINK....that every member of the Democratic Senate Caucus and Bernie Sanders are conniving to pass a bill that would completely screw the middle class? Do you really think that nobody said, "You know, Harry, this might come back to really bite us in the ass next year."

Chill.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Right, Democrats in Congress never do the wrong thing.
And nothing they've done has ever bitten them, or the American people, in the ass.

BTW, why are you talking about people making $200k a year when I'm talking about people making $44k? That's very telling, Jeff.
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. It is very telling....
And it's telling me you haven't the first clue as to what you're talking about. The language of the Senate Bill calls for increased Mediare/Medicaid taxes based on incomes of $200,000 for a single person or $250,000 for a couple. You seem to be laboring under the belief that the tax burden starts with individuals earning $44K per year. That's simply not correct -- it's not what is in the Bill.
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. The premiums and out-of-pockets are exactly the same for someone making $44K a year
Edited on Wed Dec-23-09 11:08 PM by Hello_Kitty
As someone making $200K, assuming the same actuarial value. That's regressive as shit. Remember, the person making $44K (or the family making $88K) does not get subsidized.


Edit to add: And for Paul Krugman to act like it's the same as single payer is ridiculous.
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-24-09 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Oh boy...
For starters, the Bill caps premiums at 8% of income. 8% of $44,000 is a hell of a lot less than 8% of $200,000. So the premiums are not "exactly the same" for both persons. And beyond that, if both of these person were purchasing insurance on the open market today, do you think the insurance company would give the guy making $44K a break on the price? The answer you're groping for there would be "no," which means that this would be a huge improvement for the person who makes less.

Thanks for playing.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-24-09 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Whoa man, that's way wrong. Listen:
The bill does not cap premiums at 8% of income. What you are referring to is that you don't suffer a penalty for not buying insurance if the only insurance available to you where you live would cost more than 8% of your income. If it does cost more, and you choose not to purchase any, you would be exempt from any penalty.

It is very much incorrect that the bill makes it so that insurance companies can not charge someone a premium of more than 8% of their income. Private insurance premiums are not set individually per consume based on their income level - not now and not in this bill.
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-24-09 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Can I be painfully honest with you?
Judging by your recent posts in other threads, you are just about the LAST person on this board whose opinions of this subject I would value. You've proven on several occasions that you don't understand the basics regarding the insurance industry in general (or this legislation in particular) and seem to be content with making sweeping assertions that later prove to be totally incorrect.

But let's be clear. About 85% of Americans currently have insurance coverage, either through their employer or purchased on their own. Their situation doesn't change. Of the 30 million or so Americans who don't have insurance, about two-thirds of them will be eligible for expanded the expanded Medicaid program -- which has nothing to do with private insurance companies or their premiums.

That leaves about 10 million people who will be shopping for insurance plans on the open market and the vast majority of these people will be making less that 400% of the Federal Poverty Level (working poor persons are more likely to be uninsured than the middle class or wealthy). The legislation assumes that the cost of insurance for this family will not exceed approximately $8,000 per year. If you make less than $88,000 a year, you're going to get a subsidy to help pay for that. If you make more than $88,000, you're getting fully portable health insurance at a sweet rate where you HAD NONE BEFORE.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-24-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Can you be specific?
What is it about the insurance industry that you feel I don't understand? I am particularly interested in the answer to this one.

What sweeping assertions do you feel I make that later prove to be totally incorrect?


About 85% of Americans currently have insurance coverage, either through their employer or purchased on their own. Their situation doesn't change.


Which is a huge problem.


The legislation assumes that the cost of insurance for this family will not exceed approximately $8,000 per year.


Which is a poor assumption.


If you make less than $88,000 a year, you're going to get a subsidy to help pay for that.


Here's what the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities - pretty much the gold standard for responsible economic-impact policy analysis - has to say about affordability:

Changes in Senate Health Bill Make Coverage More Affordable for Millions of Moderate-Income Families, Although not for Those on Low End of Subsidy Scale

Affordability

The bill strengthens affordability by improving the premium subsidies in the Senate Finance Committee bill for the millions of households with incomes between 154 percent and 400 percent of the poverty line — that is, between $28,200 and $73,240 for a family of three. Unfortunately, the new bill reduces the subsidies in the Finance Committee bill for near-poor households at the bottom of the subsidy range, which already were less than adequate. A family of three with income of $27,465 (150 percent of the poverty line) would have to pay $1,250 for premiums, or over $400 more than under the House bill. Many families with incomes this low already struggle to pay the rent and utilities and put food on the table and could have difficulty paying this much for health coverage.


http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3004

And here:

Changes in Senate Health Bill Make Coverage More Affordable for Millions of Moderate-Income Families, Although not for Those on Low End of Subsidy Scale

What Low- and Moderate-income Households Would Pay for Premiums

Under the bill, families and individuals with incomes between 133 and 400 percent of the poverty line (between $24,350 and $73,240 for a family of three in 2009) would receive premium credits to help offset the cost of insurance premiums for coverage they purchase in the new health insurance exchanges. The amounts these households would have to pay for premiums would be based on a sliding scale, under which households’ premium contributions would be set at 4 percent of income for households at 134 percent of the poverty line and would rise to 9.8 percent of income for those at 300 percent of the poverty line. The maximum amount that households would be required to pay would remain at 9.8 percent of income for those with incomes between 300 and 400 percent of the poverty line.<1>

These premium charges are lower than those that the Senate Finance Committee bill would have set for households between 154 percent and 400 percent of the poverty line. Middle-income households in the 300 percent-to-400 percent-of-poverty range would receive the largest reductions; they would pay a maximum of 9.8 percent of income for coverage under the new bill, as compared to 12 percent of income under the Finance Committee bill. But the premium charges would be higher than under the Finance Committee bill for households at the bottom end of the subsidy range. (See Table 1.)

Compared to the premiums under the bill that the House passed November 7, households between about 250 percent and 400 percent of the poverty line would pay less under the new Senate bill. Households with incomes below 250 percent of the poverty line would pay more. Some of those at the bottom of the subsidy scale would pay at least twice the amount they would pay under the House bill.


http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3004

Now, its important to note that the CBPP concludes that overall the bill is worth passing because in their view, the benefits to middle income earners are more important than the losses to low income earners. But I don't agree with that. My priorities are different.

Instead, I agree with the statement released by National Nurses United in explaining their reluctant opposition to this final Senate bill, which can be summarized as follows: the bill cedes too much to the insurance industry to be supported.

http://www.calnurses.org/media-center/in-the-news/2009/december/nation-s-largest-rn-organization-says-healthcare-bill-cedes-too-much-to-insurance-industry.html

Specificially:


1. The individual mandate forcing all those without coverage to buy private insurance, with insufficient cost controls on skyrocketing premiums and other insurance costs.

2. No challenge to insurance company monopolies, especially in the top 94 metropolitan areas where one or two companies dominate, severely limiting choice and competition.

3. An affordability mirage. Congressional Budget Office estimates say a family of four with a household income of $54,000 would be expected to pay 17 percent of their income, $9,000, on healthcare exposing too many families to grave financial risk.

4. The excise tax on comprehensive insurance plans which will encourage employers to reduce benefits, shift more costs to employees, promote proliferation of high-deductible plans, and lead to more self-rationing of care and medical bankruptcies, especially as more plans are subject to the tax every year due to the lack of adequate price controls. A Towers-Perrin survey in September found 30 percent of employers said they would reduce employment if their health costs go up, 86 percent said they’d pass the higher costs to their employees.

5. Major loopholes in the insurance reforms that promise bans on exclusion for pre-existing conditions, and no cancellations for sickness. The loopholes include:


* Provisions permitting insurers and companies to more than double charges to employees who fail “wellness” programs because they have diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol readings, or other medical conditions.
* Insurers are permitted to sell policies “across state lines”, exempting patient protections passed in other states. Insurers will thus set up in the least regulated states in a race to the bottom threatening public protections won by consumers in various states.
* Insurers can charge four times more based on age plus more for certain conditions, and continue to use marketing techniques to cherry-pick healthier, less costly enrollees.
* Insurers may continue to rescind policies for “fraud or intentional misrepresentation” – the main pretext insurance companies now use to cancel coverage.

6. Minimal oversight on insurance denials of care; a report by the California Nurses Association/NNOC in September found that six of California’s largest insurers have rejected more than one-fifth of all claims since 2002.

7. Inadequate limits on drug prices, especially after Senate rejection of an amendment, to protect a White House deal with pharmaceutical giants, allowing pharmacies and wholesalers to import lower-cost drugs.

8. New burdens for our public safety net. With a shortage of primary care physicians and a continuing fiscal crisis at the state and local level, public hospitals and clinics will be a dumping ground for those the private system doesn’t want.

9. Reduced reproductive rights for women.

10. No single standard of care. Our multi-tiered system remains with access to care still determined by ability to pay. Nothing changes in basic structure of the system; healthcare remains a privilege, not a right.




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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-24-09 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #27
32. Bzzzzt! Wrong.
Edited on Thu Dec-24-09 11:57 AM by Hello_Kitty
Try to educate yourself before acting like a preening jackass in the future.

Here: http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx Plug in the numbers for a single adult, starting at $43,320 (400% FPL). No difference whatsoever for any income once you reach the subsidy cutoff. IOW, they're not ever going to charge someone making $200K 8% of their income.

On edit: IOW, Paul Krugman is full of shit when he says this bill achieves the same result as single payer.
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-24-09 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. It will screw the class that no one gives a shit about:
The poor and low income working individuals and families.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-23-09 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
22. Abolish ALL classes n/t
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-24-09 01:32 AM
Response to Original message
25. Kick for the eve before Xms eve!
Edited on Thu Dec-24-09 01:33 AM by Hello_Kitty
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harry_pothead Donating Member (752 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-24-09 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
26. K&R
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-24-09 07:18 AM
Response to Original message
28. I stand with workers.
The details are complicated, but there's a very useful heuristic:

Do you stand with workers or rulers?

I stand with workers. As long as the middle class, particularly the white upper middle class, identifies with the poor working class individuals and families rather than with the upper echelons of power and privilege, then I stand with them and they can stand with me too. :)

But the ever-present danger of increasing levels of "comfort" is the inclination to slowly stop identifying with the poor and working class and begin to be acculturated into the life of power, privilege and leisure. Don't let that happen to you!
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