Note to the apologists of this shit bill: Health Insurance is NOT Health Care.

[Odin2005]

As long as these EVIL companies can gouge us with insane deductibles and co-pays that other BS that makes sure that we don't actually get covered while being forced to pay these fuckers anyway there will be no real reform in this country. This whole bill is a sham to make us pay these companies while being screwed with shit coverage.

The For-Profit health insurance industry needs to be destroyed. These monsters do not care about healthcare, they care about maximizing profits, and that's ALL they are allowed by law to care about. Healthcare should never be for profit, it should be a public service available to all.

[THUNDER HANDS]

1. yeah, you get to work on destroying the private health insurance industry

the rest of us will do something realistic to help people.

[Stinky The Clown]

5. Yeah?

Wudda you doin'?

How you doin' somethin' realistic to help people? Tell us.

[THUNDER HANDS]

well, relatively speaking

if the options are:

A - try to destroy the private insurance industry

or

B - anything else


Anything else is more realistic.

[Donnachaidh]

12. what a lame NON-answer to a valid question

FAIL.

[THUNDER HANDS]

30. well, I didn't want to get into it because it's kind of a sensitive subject, but...

but right now I'm about two weeks away from going down to Ft. Benning, GA for basic training in the Army. So, yeah, that's what I'm doing at the moment. It's not in any way connected with the health insurance industry, but hopefully one day it'll lead me to be able to help someone somewhere.

[bowens43]

122. so basically , you get your government healthcare

so fuck everyone else.....truly pathetic.

[THUNDER HANDS]

129. excuse me?

Let me clue you in on something, I'm 31 years old. I've been employed in one form or another since I was 17. In the 14 years I've been employed I've had health insurance a grand total of TWO whole years. I haven't been to a doctor since 2002. I haven't been to a dentist since 2005.

If you think my attitude is "fuck them, I got mine" you are sorely mistaken.

Is this bill everything I want? Hell no.

Is it what I would vote for if I was in congress? Probably not.

But it is what it is and I have no control over it. Reality smacked us in the face when our party was crafting this bill and we have to accept that reality.

But I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and let someone accuse me of not caring about others just because life handed me a crappy hand and I'm playing it the best I can. Don't be so quick to judge others and you better damn not accuse me of being heartless when it comes to the plight of those without insurance. I've been there for many years and I know what its like more than most.

[Lerkfish]

175. I think the point is that the govt cannot refuse to treat you or provide health care

as private insurance can do to us mere civlians.

And i think that is a fair point.

[THUNDER HANDS]

193. the same could be said of anyone under a federal insurance plan

but that poster was WAAAAY off if he thinks my attitude is "fuck you, I got mine."

Way off.

[Joe Chi Minh]

183. Everything about you speaks of violence, so expecting concern from you

for public health-care would seem a non-starter.

You call yourself, Thunderhands, you've got a photo of Arnie, the Terminator beneath your post, and you're about to join the army to fight in wars of aggression. As the Freeway Blogger said to Savage, when Savage whined: 'You don't know me! You don't know anything about me!': 'But I hear what you say.....'

'Don't be so quick to judge others and you better damn not accuse me of being heartless when it comes to the plight of those without insurance. I've been there for many years and I know what its like more than most.'

There are plenty of people who think, 'I've had it hard. Why should others have it any easier!' The plain fact of the matter is, you're all right Jack. And by the way, the army is not the Red Cross.

We have a free national health service in the UK, but there is still a thriving health insurance industry. That was what I believe Obama declred that he wanted. Parallel set-ups. Moreover, private patients have access to NHS facilities. Indeed, there is currently a row on in Scotland about private patients jumping queues for operations.

[THUNDER HANDS]

192. that's actually hysterical the conclusions you jumped to

I called myself Thunderhands because I used to be a court reporter - my thundering hands denoted the fact that I can type at about 300 words a minute. It's also a play off of Thunderlips, the wrestler played by Hulk Hogan in Rocky III.

I have photo of Arnie because I used to be a moderator. That's why it also says, do not disrupt.

But besides that, I don't see what me joining the army has to do with my support for public health care. I support a single payer system. I just don't think it's realistically going to happen. I wish it would, but hey, it's not like I have a lot of pull in Washington.

[KittyWampus]

58. Hilarious, the DU'ers who have done nothing but fill this forum with hateful diatribe for weeks

and offered NOTHING CONSTRUCTIVE makings such a comment.

[Kalun D]

158. BECAUSE

BECAUSE THE CORPORATE DEMS THAT WE VOTED INTO POWER HAVEN'T DONE JACK SH*T FOR THE PAST YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(except to line corporate pockets with more of our money)

AT THE EXPENSE OF PEOPLES LIVES IN THE CASE OF HEALTH CARE!!!!!!!!!!!

[defendandprotect]

167. But obviously those are two strong votes for not looking at reality while

telling us we have to settle for CORPORATE REALITY !!!!

Amazing the powers people have to delude themselves!!!

Happy Winter Solstice -- Nature's New Year!!

[Enthusiast]

181. I've got your hateful diatribe right here.

The insurance industry contributes ZERO to health care. But we pay them for..............what? Protection money? Why in the fuck are we paying the insurance industry? Remind me again. Because they have control?

It is in our best interest to destroy the U.S. health insurance industry for they are not human beings that suffer and they are nothing but parasites that cause death and misery.

One industry after another has been lost to these free trade agreements but we are protecting an industry that contributes nothing and manufactures nothing? Tell me this isn't so.

[Stinky The Clown]

46. In other words ......

..... just blowing hot air.

.... cool.

[Flaneur]

106. I vote for Option A.

The whole industry is a parasite.

[Ken Burch]

159. Again outing yourself as a paid shill.

That's the only type of person that would use phrases like "try to destroy the private insurance industry".

[THUNDER HANDS]

194. um

the OP mentioned destroying the private insurance industry, in fact, he argued vociferously for it.

sooooo...maybe you could brush up on them reading comprehension skills there, buddy, before you try outing unemployed people who haven't had health insurance in years as being paid shills for the industry.

[Lerkfish]

173. not really. if we had socialized medicine there would be no need for private insurers

it works in most of the countries of the world, why not here?

[THUNDER HANDS]

195. you'll get no argument from me

I'm all for socialized medicine.

but in case you haven't noticed, it's next to impossible to get ANYTHING that benefits people out of congress. Even something as marginal as what's just come out of the senate - that took a herculean effort and took out and out bribing of key senators just to not get it fillibustered.

It would take, literally, an act of God to get anything close to socialized medicine through Congress.

[polpilot]

7. No. Just convince the countries with REAL healthcare at 50% off to import these companies.

That should be easy!!

[Odin2005]

9. The health insurance industry IS the problem.

You have to kill the infection, not just relieve it's symptoms.

[THUNDER HANDS]

14. i'm not saying you're wrong

in fact, you're correct.

unfortunately that is irrelevant.

[Odin2005]

29. Oh it is relevent.

The insurance industry will always find ways around the band-aids, either through the corruption of out politicians, or by looking for legal loopholes.

[THUNDER HANDS]

34. if your goal is to stop them from making money

then it is irrelevant. That's not going to stop.

Find a way to get people insured and get them health care when they need it while still making sure the insurance industry gets its money is a win win for everyone.

[defendandprotect]

168. The goal is to end corporate/fascism . . . not reward it . . .

and it's not going to stop as long as there are those who will accept these

corrupt political scams --

People do not need to be "INSURED" to get health care . ..

They need to be covered by a health plan administered by government -- single payer will do.

Medicare for all, will do.

And "making sure the insurance industry gets its money" is part of a "win/win for everyone" in

your mind????!!!!

Wow --


:eyes:


:puke:

[ipaint]

82. Some people are too busy being victimized by them

and apparently enjoying so much they think it should be law.

Signs your in an abusive relationship.

Remember, an abuser’s goal is to control you, and he will frequently use money to do so. Economic or financial abuse includes:

* Rigidly controlling your finances.
* Withholding money or credit cards.
* Making you account for every penny you spend.
* Withholding basic necessities (food, clothes, medications, shelter).

* Restricting you to an allowance.
* Preventing you from working or choosing your own career.
* Sabotaging your job (making you miss work, calling constantly)
* Stealing from you or taking your money.

[Greyhound]

62. "I freed a thousand slaves, I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

[Uncle Joe]

85. Or this final scene; depicting the sudden insight of life's real worth and value.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPHvLtitxug

I believe that kind of realization has been obscured to our political leaders by the vast sums of money being spent by the "health" insurance corporations, so instead of working to kill or weaken it, they send the beast more food and then sleep easy at night, patting themselves on the back as they recite soft lies; for their courage and enlightenment.

[hunter]

63. Let's talk "realistic."

I want to see some health insurance executives thrown into prison, their personal assets seized, and the industry as it exists shut down. If the health insurance industry is not actually killing our people and the economy of this nation, it is doing very severe damage.

The only problem we have is that this cancerous tumor of an industry has become so large and so invasive within our economy that the surgery to remove it will be extremely difficult. But I think we are shit out of other options. Living with it is no longer an option.

[Odin2005]

92. +1

[bvar22]

111. I'll go with that...+2

Every American is NOW going to be REQUIRED to purchase a defective product every year from a For Profit Corporation that manufactures NOTHING, and produces NO Wealth (value added).

WOW!
Where is the "Mission Accomplished" Banner?

The Republicans could have NEVER gotten away with THAT.
A rip-off of The People on THAT scale requires the "Centrist" Democrats.

Next on the DLC Hit List:
"Entitlement Reform" (the destruction of Medicare and Social Security)
"Look Out Now"!

[LibDemAlways]

160. Absolutely right about the repukes never being able to get away with it.

It's so out there they wouldn't even try. Somehow Obama went from campaigning on a public option to denying he campaigned on a public option and then touting a bill that serves up shit sandwiches people are going to be forced to eat.

It's unbelievable. I hope the uproar over this crap is heard loud and clear in Washington and something is done about the mandate. It's going to cost the Dems bigtime in 2010.

[Kalun D]

161. ^^^^^^^^ ++++++++10 to the 100th power.

+++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++

[Enthusiast]

182. +3

An industry should have to prove they have some sort of socially redeeming value to exist. They should at least not be harmful to millions. Is this not reasonable?

[Triana]

163. [phone] n/t

[defendandprotect]

169. Agree -- unfortunately, our Congress is more in awe of corporate $$$ than our Constitution --

[bowens43]

121. what complete and utter bull shit.

This bill helps no one. This bill is nothing morre then a give away to the insurance industry. Obama is a huge disappointment and democrats have proved that they are nothing more then tools of the insurance industry. If this abomination gets signed into law as is , I will not support any Democrat who voted in favour.

[totodeinhere]

138. Good it should be destroyed. Then we can pay for single payer with the money that we give those...

robber barons masquerading as insurance companies and have money left over.

[Ken Burch]

157. OK, you've just outed yourself as a paid shill.

Duly noted by everyone else here at DU.

[mix]

2. k & r nt

[polpilot]

3. Well since the health insurance companies won this time then...maybe us next time?

[kenny blankenship]

48. Ask yourself this: will the insurance co.s be *closer* to the govt. after this legislation passes?

Are they going to be in closer contact, more frequent contact, are their aims more interwoven with the Executive and Congressional committees than they were before the "landmark legislation"?

I'd say finding the line between government and insurance company is going to become an increasingly difficult test as time goes by. They will blend with one another in much the same way that military contractors and Pentagon/DoD share a base of revolving staff. Or like the Treasury and Goldman-Sachs. And as that merger occurs, the institutional aims of the insurance companies will become the institutional aims of those who are supposed to be regulating them, not to mention those who're being paid well in Congress to look out for them. Everyone must cooperate to maintain the profitability of the insurers - or else our "National Health Care System" will be "running out of money!" thus "endangering the health and live of all Americans!" Harmony not antagonism will be the watchword. Figures from the insurance industry or academics who're favorable to their interests will be chosen to "regulate" them. Antagonistic regulators will be excluded or removed as "hostile to the system". Insurance industry owned Senators and Representatives will populate the committees that "oversee" their actions, giving them a veto over Exec. branch appointments that concern their business, as well as undue influence over regulations. The insurance industry has already demonstrated it has full "capture" over the legislative branch, and as their relationship deepens into a daily routine of "oversight" the exercise and pursuit of capture will only intensify.

Far from easing the way to further changes to the "health care system", this legislation will have elevated the status of these mafiosi to quasi governmental status, intimately binding the insurance rackets to the federal govt. in perpetuity. In this way we have added an order of magnitude to the institutional inertia that shields the extortions of private insurance from the torches and lances of any well intentioned reformers. From now on, when you fuck with the insurance industry you will fuck with the Government - a lifestyle choice which could prove prejudicial to your health.

[Hannah Bell]

110. "corporatism"

[NJmaverick]

4. You can stuff your sorries in a sack, mister!

[Stinky The Clown]

8. Its a living, right?

By the each or by the hour?

[NJmaverick]

17. I think you are running low on tinfoil mr clown

:rofl:

[Stinky The Clown]

47. "I think you are running low on tinfoil mr clown" ........

...... is funny ..... why, exactly?

But that's okay, you roll on the floor there, you little scamp. Just don't wet yourself.

By the way, when ya gonna get all mavericky ...... ?

[Lerkfish]

177. he does just fine on my ignore list

he earned that position by flinging around crazy cat lady pictures and pretending that was rational discourse.

[Donnachaidh]

10. and you'll provide an Aetna sack for him right?

Or is it WellCare you work for?

[NJmaverick]

15. .

[Donnachaidh]

19. Appropriate intelligence level for an insurance drone

Simpsons.

Ka-ching goes the posting charge!

[NJmaverick]

21. .

[cherokeeprogressive]

66. Ka-Ching!

[NJmaverick]

76. Are you worred that the RNC is ripping you off?

[cherokeeprogressive]

79. No. Why would I be?

I don't shill for ANYONE.

[inna]

139. what do you think you're implying by that cartoon?

just curious.

[Forkboy]

39. Can't figure out why the only people who take you seriously are sycophants.

With such a charming personality you'd think we'd all be enthralled. :rofl:

[NJmaverick]

45. you should talk

I bet you made you glass replacement guy a very wealthy person.

[cherokeeprogressive]

67. Ka-Ching!

[havocmom]

71. You SO rock

:thumbsup:

[QC]

73. Here's a nice graphic:

[amborin]

199. +10

[inna]

140. :facepalm:

[alfredo]

6. The bill out of the Senate is not the final bill. It will

be merged with the House bill. The house bill contains a public option.

I see little need for health insurance companies. Doctors and hospitals could do the financial part in house.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Donnachaidh]

13. oh look

A DLC intern making a little spare cash to pay for his Xmas card charges.

[LastNaturalist]

18. You're adorable. I bet your winning personality is a delight with others!

[Donnachaidh]

23. you're adorable

I'll bet you think people actually CARE what you think.

[LastNaturalist]

26. You seem too! Getting under your skin am I?

[Donnachaidh]

31. hands back on top of the desk sonny

And put the hand lotion back in the desk drawer.

[Forkboy]

41. Tell OMC and SIMPLY we said hello.

:hi:

[L0oniX]

115. +1

[L0oniX]

116. You're still here? Have the mods run out of pizza for you?

[inna]

137. apparently not...

[Kansas Wyatt]

24. That or someone with 'fast track to the top' ambitions...

Sitting in their Insurance Industry cubicle.

[Odin2005]

16. I was a Deaniac since 2003. You gotta poblem with that?

I was full of hope that Obama was an extension of what dean started. Now I feel betrayed.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Donnachaidh]

27. so -- how much per post?

:eyes:

[Odin2005]

33. Oh, go STFU Rahm.

[Bluenorthwest]

42. Um, here is a bit of information for you. Colbert is not a

pundit he is a comic actor. The creation you call a pundit is a fictional character made up by an actor to be a satire of pundits. You are looking at a joke, and seeing it as a serious thing, which is the meaning of 'the joke's on you'. Many who look from the right think he's an actual pundit, there was a study and everything, so you are not alone. But the fact is Colbert is a pundit in exactly the same way that Robert Downey Jr is the Ironman.
Cobert is a comic actor, in character, not an actual political pundit. He's not even the actual Stephen Colbert.

[Kalun D]

162. LOLZ

""You are looking at a joke, and seeing it as a serious thing, which is the meaning of 'the joke's on you'. Many who look from the right think he's an actual pundit, there was a study and everything, so you are not alone.""

It was so hella funny when Colbert faked out the entire RNC (they were CLUELESS!) when they had him do the media dinner where he severely trashed the bush boy. That was the brightest spot of all the bush years. Colbert is one of my biggest heroes. Going into the den of thieves and calling the head thief a fool right to his face.

[Echo In Light]

20. Whole-hearted K&R, for common sense and morality

[cali]

25. Note to you:

I have private subsidized state administered health insurance. It damned well does provide me with access to good health care including prescriptions and dental. I pay $60 a month for it, so don't tell me I don't have health care.

[kestrel91316]

49. Must be nice. Here in CA I had to drop my insurance when it hit

about $600/mo, IIRC, because there was still such a high deductible, and copay after that, that the premiums made any doctor visits completely unaffordable.

They like to screw us in CA.

[defendandprotect]

170. CA seemed to be a prime target because of your liberalism . . . .

Just like NY --

Am I wrong?

That's the way it's looked with the right wing in power --

Is there a conclusion that Reagan harmed California?

Can you say something about your political situation there now and

what the aftereffects of ENRON might still be?

Or anything else you want to throw in??

[bvar22]

114. Well as long a YOU are confortable.

Too bad we ALL don't get to live in Vermont.

[cali]

164. oh fucking please. Why do you think I pay only $60?

Because I'm fucking poor, genius. Vermont can be a template for implementing private subsidized state administered insurance. duh. We've been doing it here for years and years.

[LiberalAndProud]

28. How do you make that happen?

Our health care industry is profit driven, from the insurance companies who take your premiums to the surgeon who takes your gall bladder. How do you go about taking the profit motive out the mix?

[Odin2005]

32. Single Payer, like in that civilized country Canada.

[Pithlet]

35. Well, right now, we don't have single payer.

So, to get access, one needs health insurance. So your little lesson in your OP is indeed well understood. They aren't the same thing. But you need one to get access to the other. It's an unfortunate reality until we get single payer.

I don't get DU right now. What is with the shrill poo flinging over this? Duh, treat people on the other side like they're morons and fight fight fight. It's worse than the primaries.

[Kansas Wyatt]

36. Well Hell...

Maybe the President should have put Single Payer on the table, instead of immediately CONCEDING it in favor of the Insurance Industry as soon as he got in the White House.

Yet you cannot understand why people are fucking pissed off?

[Pithlet]

43. It's not that I don't understand why they're pissed off.

It's that I don't understand why they've lost their ever loving minds and want to turn around and eat their own like this. You don't think I wanted single payer? I do. I would want nothing more than for it to have been a reality. To have been able to have a political system where we could do something like put single payer right up front and vote it in. But it was never going to work like that. I'm not the enemy. I want single payer, too. But because, and only because I, and others like me, understand how it works in this country, I'm the enemy, and I get spittle and poo flung at me, and I get accused of being a cheer leader. You can't understand how ridicululous that is?

[Kansas Wyatt]

53. You don't blindly follow and accept those who have stabbed you in the back.

They took a mandate from the American People and squandered it into a giveaway to the Insurance Industry. They did not even try to do a fucking thing for the American People. They already had a Single Payer system already set up, that the American People like, which only had to be expanded. But no, the Insurance Industry was too important... After they have been fucking over the American People for years.

That may be fine with the Pom Pom Squad, but it will never be fine with me or millions of other voters.

[Pithlet]

55. All you're doing is taking anyone who doesn't see things exactly from your point of view

And immediately dismissing them and their motives as nefarious. It's immature and lazy thinking. Maybe that's not something you normally do. Maybe you're swept up in this kill the bill mania. I don't know. It's so insane lately, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I can assure you, I'm no member of any pom pom squad nor am I prone to blindly follow anyone. Of course, I knew that would be hurled at me the moment I stepped in here today and contributed anything to the discussion.

[Kansas Wyatt]

87. If you support this SHIT Bill, then you stand with Corporate America against the American People

Corporate America is who this SHIT Bill benefits, NOT the American People.

I have had 28 years of experience dealing with and being screwed by those fucking Death Merchants, so don't fucking tell me that I am being immature and lazy when I call a spade a spade. Nor do I give a shit that you blindly follow and approve of the SHIT Bill as being real reform, because it is NOT. Knock yourself out with the Pom Poms, because the American People aren't buying it.

[Pithlet]

89. What bullshit.

Yeah, I can just hear the masses of people spewing these lines rushing to cancel their insurance policies right now. Their policies and those of their families.

[Kansas Wyatt]

91. Stay at home voters...

That's the cancellation you should worry about.

[Pithlet]

93. Eh. The take my ball and go home crowd have been around forever.

I'm mainly just shaking my head at the vitriol here on DU that's raised to primary levels and maybe even worse. It's just ridiculous.

[Kansas Wyatt]

96. Obama will NEVER see supporters packed in stadiums again..

He will be busing in supporters, much like his predecessor did.

Boo Hoo! Sorry you SHIT Bill supports failed to see that coming.

[defendandprotect]

172. True . . . but they only needed to pull this off once . . .

[Pithlet]

90. I don't stand with Corporate America. I stand with the uninsured!

Period. I care about them more than I care about winning. I want single payer. But I care about their wellbeing more than I care about attaining that goal immediately and flailing and blaming everyone and anyone when we don't get single payer at the drop of a hat. I think that some people have become so entrenched in the battle that they've lost sight of the big picture. Everyone has become the enemy.

[Kansas Wyatt]

94. I don't have insurance...

And I waited 28 fucking years for what turns out to be a fucking sell-out to the Insurance Industry by the fucking Democratic Government that was needed to actually get REAL health care reform. You do not stand with me... I stand for REAL Reform.

Enjoy your SHIT Bill!

[Pithlet]

97. I stand for real reform, too. The difference between you and me

Is that I know that killing the bill and waiting for years while the status quo rolls on will do not a damn thing. There are things in the bill that will help people. The difference between you and me is I know that real reform isn't going to jump up fully formed. This bill is how you get it done. Do I like that reality. No. I don't. Yes, it does suck. Killing the bill is stopping the road to that reform you want. I'm not your enemy.

[Kansas Wyatt]

101. I am getting sick and tired of going over it for you people...

2010, you immediately fast track Medicare (you know, very popular American medical coverage) for all and single ANYONE out who stands in the way. During an election year, that immediately puts pressure on people to NOT fuck over the American People. Those not up for re-election, you pull them to the back room, twist their fucking arm up around their neck, and tell them that this will be the very last term they ever serve at anything if they fuck over the American People.

Your President and Democratic Leadership did NOT even try to do anything beneficial for the American People. They only rewarded the Insurance Industry, with the giveaway SHIT Bill.

[Pithlet]

104. Fine. And none of what you said changes the fact that right now

there are millions of people that could be helped by a bill that needs to be passed. You've obviously got an axe to grind. The backs of the uninsured is not the place to grind it at this time.

[Kansas Wyatt]

108. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few.

When this SHIT Bill becomes so unpopular and detrimental to the majority of Americans, do you really think those few won't be sacrificed and cut in the future?

And actually implementing Medicare for all could be done a lot FASTER than what the SHIT Bill does. It's already set up and ready to be expanded. But you just do not want Medicare for all and wish to keep everyone thrown over the cliff for the SHIT Bill. Why is that?

Oh, and you do remember that I am one of the uninsured, don't you?
Unlike you, I do not sell out and give up for Token Effort Chump Change, while Corporate America is handed the keys to the U.S. Treasury.

How much are they paying you to post?
When does your shift end?
Is it a DLC or Insurance Industry cubicle?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

107. and in 4 years Obama will make sure you finally have expensive insurance. Why aren't you happy?

[eridani]

141. And forcing them to buy shitty insurance that does not cover actual care

--until ridiculous co-pays and deductibles have been paid harms rather than helps.

[defendandprotect]

171. You don't get why we shouldn't reward corporate fascism?

[LiberalAndProud]

40. Let's agree that single-payer would be the ideal.

As soon as you can find 60 representatives who will agree with us and get them elected, I'm all for it. While this bill is not the perfect solution, I really believe it is a huge step forward. It is as close to a sliding-scale system as we're likely to ever get in this country. While pining for the ideal, it is important to deal with the real.

[defendandprotect]

176. Let's agree that corporate fascism in this bill is a sell out by those

pre-bribed and pre-owned by the insurance and "for profit" health care industry --

Agreeing to a downward spiral and fascism isn't a "huge step forward" -- it's a deal

with the devil.

And, yeah -- the "pony" is now the "ideal" . . . give it a break.

How come compromising with fascism is such an ideal for you?

[kestrel91316]

51. The insurance companies get their profit without providing any medical care.

They are merely parasites who spend their time and energy trying to DENY coverage and therefore deny care. Physicians, and nurses, and pharmacists, and radiology tech, and even hospital housekeeping staff earn their pay by actually providing care and direct services to patients. It's not "profit" technically, but who cares? Since when do we have to worship at the altar of corporate profits?

[LiberalAndProud]

54. I can't decide whether to condede your point

that insurance companies are leaches, or point out that 80% of Americans with health insurance were happy with their policies. If they didn't provide some benefit, wouldn't they be gone already?

The profit motive under our current system weeds out those most in need of medical care. This bill plucks that plum. Why is that a bad thing?

[kestrel91316]

61. What would be wrong with a plan that made sure 100% of Americans

had access to affordable medical care??? There is a huge value in preventive care. No one benefits when care is delayed so long that the patient winds up at the ER and bankrupted in the process, or dead of advanced cancer. I sure would like to be able to buy affordable insurance, or better yet pay the government who then pays the doctors without insurance companies trying to take a cut.

[LiberalAndProud]

74. And so we agree on the desired outcome.

Yes, every one of us should have access to medical care regardless of our ability to pay. Our disagreement seems to be how best to accomplish that.

I was not sad when Clinton's health care initiative failed, because I thought we would be able to do it right the next time. Here we are at the next time, and maybe we're not doing it right -- strike that -- we are not doing it right, but at least we're doing something. The situation hasn't gotten better over time and it won't unless we make a beginning. I don't think this is a finished product. I intend to keep my signature for a good long while after Obama signs this bill, but I absolutely believe that the bill is a good beginning.

[Dragonfli]

188. What part of we who need it most can't afford the deductibles or the new POOR TAX don't you get?

You assume this will help (not as much as you like, but blah blah blah) when in fact it will only supply profit for denials and care to those that can already afford the "upper tier" insurance.

For the rest of us it is a new poor tax.
That will not help us

People just don't have the money for insurance that will be forced on us. Insurance that plays games with claims and with a deductible We won't be able to afford (meaning we can't use the garbage).

Next you people really will claim that we need to mandate away homelessness, "it will help some buy houses right?" The rest of you, well, lets just fine you because they can't afford a mortgage, that will help right?.

Those of us that are struggling just to afford food luckily aren't as gullible as some of you, unfortunately, we will be paying for your false victory and your gullible stupidity because we still won't be able to afford a doctor and will now also have to pay the poor tax.

[eridani]

143. They are really really happy with their fire extinguishers too

If you have never used your fire extinguisher or made any expensive health insurance claims, you are a blissful ignoramus.

[Hidden Stillness]

37. The Bill a Planned, Coordinated Scam

Step one: Give rousing speeches about the need for "universal" "coverage," always using the word "universal" as it is associated with National Health Care, and do not explain what "coverage" means; do not explain as everyone cheers that "they will be covered." Give speeches about the bankrupting of millions of people by medical bills--add pointed revelation, "and most of them HAD HEALTH INSURANCE."

Step two (after majority supports fuzzy, non-descript "plan"): Change phrase "health reform" to "health insurance reform," stop mentioning that most bankrupted people had commercial insurance, but now only say that we will give you all insurance, everyone will be on insurance. Yay! Drop mentions of exhorbitant prices, fees, things not covered at the whim of corporate insurance (and lobbying payments to lawmakers; only Bernie Sanders didn't do that one); now pretend that the entire problem is that they don't cover "pre-existing conditions," filter all language to that point. The fact that most premuim payments to corporate insurance goes not to coverage but to management and stockholder profit now also, no longer mentioned, when once also hyped before.

Step one: Get them all excited and upset by telling them of the real problem first, then pretending you will give them the 200s equivelent of Social Security or Medicare/Medicaid--yay! Line 'em up, and...
Step two: Knock 'em down. Force them into the same corporate-owned system that is the problem now, each one trying to sink or swim alone, and all corporations still unregulated, still controlling the entire "market," still owning the Government and legislation, and with no real-world problem once referred to, even addressed. What a scam, when you own everything--so easy.

[theFrankFactor]

187. Exactly! Great Post.

[Richardo]

38. What a constructive, well-thought out post.

:^|

[TwilightGardener]

44. Oh hell, the whiney tripe isn't even original anymore.

Come up with something more original than "We want healllthh caarrre, not healllth insuuuraaancce!" That's been done to death, and it's still just as meaningless.

[fascisthunter]

126. "whiney tripe".... why bother then?

[eridani]

144. Go peddle your shit to all the dead and bankrupt people who had insurance

What in fucking hell does merely being 'insured' do for anybody?

[TwilightGardener]

153. Saved me $35,000 on surgery and a hospital stay. That's what being insured

can do for somebody.

[eridani]

156. And the one out of five who get claims turned down are just disposable human garbage

But as long as you were one of the other four, it's all good. Fuck the rest of them.

[AVID]

50. spoken like a true martyr

[quiet.american]

52. It would be nice to see these screeds backed up occasionally with some actual supportive facts. nt

[Pithlet]

56. I know. I'd like to know why I'm supposed to support killing the bill!

From the beginning, I've been trying form an informed opinion on the matter. Because if there's a real good reason, I'd like to know. I don't want a bad bill passed. So many people seem to feel strongly enough about it that I felt there must be something to it. But it seems all I get are little more than impassioned slogans couched in hatred for dems. "Health insurance isn't healthcare". "It's a give away to the insurance industry". Mandates are bad", and "Dems are weak". Okay. But millions of uninsured. We need to do something about them. None of those things outweigh that. I look at each of those arguments, and millions of uninsured trumps every single one handily. So I'm still left searching. We don't even know what we're going to end up with yet. This kill the bill movement seems to have snowballed like a mania, and you can't even begin to try to discuss without being completely bowled over with accusations of being a cheerleader. So, tell me again why I'm supposed to jump on this train?

[treestar]

69. +1

It's insanity really. You are supposed to want no change and no benefit to the people who will benefit, just because, apparently, insurance companies would pay the medical bills for these people when they need them. Because insurance companies are just inherently evil. :sarcasm:

[Pithlet]

83. Yep. I don't like insurance industry anymore than anyone else. I think they're slime, in fact.

Yes, my premiums go in their pocket, but I'm not about to cancel my policy and end the very thing that gets me access. That would be stupid. Nor am I about to thwart anything that gets others who don't have the access I do. It's not that I don't think there are legitimate things to gripe about in the bill. It's just that I don't think they're worth leaving people hanging without insurance. That doesn't make me an evil corporation shill.

[eridani]

147. If insurance companies always paid health care bills, why did Nataline Sarkisian die? n/t

[eridani]

146. Forcing them to buy shit insurance that is worse than what

--many of the bankrupt and dead people had helps them how? The basic coverage (the only kind subsidized), pays only 60-70% of actual costs. People will sacrifice their health and perhaps die because many can't afford to do that.

[Richardo]

57. You'll see facts in inverse proportion to the frequency of the words 'evil', 'corrupt', 'give-away'

...'sham', 'greed' and 'fascist'.

These are not the words of reasoned argument.

[sendero]

78. Medicare overhead..

... 3%. Private insurance overhead 25%+.

That is your "fact".

[quiet.american]

81. ?

Fact to what?

[Ignis]

59. K&R.

Preach it, Odin. :D

[Odin2005]

60. Thanks!

:hi:

[Greyhound]

64. K&R.

[ThomWV]

65. Pleased to K&R

[treestar]

68. I'm not going to jump on your bandwagon

Everyone is in what they do for a profit. You would not go to work if they paid you less than it took you to get there.

May as well rail against Doctors. They would not treat you if no one paid them enough to cover the expense of running their office.

The reason people have insurance for this is the potential for an extremely high liability in case of serious illness. We could pay directly for amounts under the deductible. The deductible just says some expenses can be part of day to day life. You get insurance for the diasters. That's why we do it this way. We don't get insurance on needing gas for the car, because that's a day to day ordinary expense. We only get insurance on body damage to the car, because they may never happen, but if it does, it will be an extraordinary expense.

We're all trying to make a living. The wrong thing is to think only what you do is needed by society and to slam everyone else.

[eridani]

148. How does paying people bonuses for denying claims add value? n/t

[sabrina 1]

70. Remember once how outrageous it was to say

that the Iraq War was about oil? I remember being called a traitor and unprintable names for saying that. But when Kucinich revealed the clause we were not meant to see, hidden away in one of the supplemental bills about the date set for turning over Iraq's Oil to multi corps (or more than 80% of it) the denials diminished and a lot of people's eyes were opened. Kuicinich was admonished by his own party for letting us in on that little secret and threatened with sanctions if he continued to inform the American people about what their government was doing, in their name.

I feel like I'm having deja vu all over again with the health care issue. When anyone says this bill is nothing more than a bailout of the financially strapped Ins. Industry (they lost customers because of the recession and will lose many more when baby boomers become eligible for Medicare, so something had to be done to save them) a similar reaction occurs.

But then recently, when an internal memo or email from an industry insider was revealed after the Senate discarded the PO and extended Medicare, saying 'WE WON'! I don't think there is any doubt what this bill was all about.

Wall St and the Private Insurance industry are both corrupt, greedy entities harmful to the well being of the American people. And both are failures besides. But they use our money to buy Congress spending hundreds of millions of dollars on lobbyists, and we lose.

At least it would help if people faced facts. We just saved the Private Insurance Industry. Then maybe we could stop trying to fool ourselves and focus on what to do about this corporate takeover of our government.

[defendandprotect]

178. "focus on what to do about this corporate takeover of our government."--

You're absolutely correct ---

and your summation is correct, as well --

That our Congress and this administration reward corporate/fascism with this bill and then

leave us to argue about it is handy for those power elites who want to continue their

control of our government.

[jgraz]

72. Nailed it.

:thumbsup:

[invictus]

75. K&R

[EFerrari]

77. Right you are!

:applause:

[harun]

80. It is amazing how many people on DU still don't understand this fundamental point,

quite depressing actually.

Just because someone has Health Insurance doesn't mean the Health Insurance company is going to pay for ANY care.

[quaker bill]

103. I have never had insurance that didn't

They don't pay for everything, but i have only had a claim rejected once or twice.

Of course I have had government provided private sector health insurance for years now, but it is only a State employee plan, a step down from the non-profit federal plan that will be available in the exchanges.

[eridani]

149. 45,000 murdered by spreadsheet is less than 0.1% of the population

And you aren't one of them. Isn't that just SPECIAL? Maybe you should get a medal or something.

[bighart]

84. And to all the cheerleaders for this bill:

BEWARE THE LAW OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES if anything close to this POS passes. Those consequences will be a mother to deal with. You think you're screwed by the insurance companies now, just wait until you are required by law to purchase their products!

[Pithlet]

86. Millions of uninsured. Dying.

That worries me more than being mandated to buy a product. That mandate is better than lifetime caps and pre-existing conditions.

[eridani]

151. Quite a few of the dead had insurance.

In civilized countries, there is not a single instance of people dying for lack of money.

[Pithlet]

88. And before you hone me in your sites of more name calling

It's all within the framework of what we can get right now. Do I want this? No. But I want to help those uninsured and dying. Not stand on a hill based on principle and sling insults at people who don't agree with me. So what if is a giveaway to the insurance company? So what if makes people buy a product. I'm buying a product and it saved my life. It's better than waiting and letting people die.

[bighart]

95. What names did I call you?

What insults have I slung at you?

I am just saying this is not going to nearly as great is it looks initially. I believe we need reform but it needs to be something other than mandated insurance. I already have health insurance but the cost is too high, and just found out my premiums are doubling, my co-pay increasing, the out of pocket max is going up and my prescription benefit that used to have a max yearly out of pocket is changing to a 50% co pay with no max out of pocket. In other words my "health insurance" is of no use to me unless or until I have catastrophic illness or a bad accident. I will go to the dr. less in the coming year than I did in the previous year because I can't afford it.

[Pithlet]

100. You used the term cheerleaders.

It's not flattering, to say the least. People who don't see your way aren't necessarily cheerleaders.

The bill isn't perfect. So how is nothing better? Mandated insurance isn't peachy. So how is nothing better? Tell me. Convince me that leaving millions of uninsured to languish is better? Would I want single payer over mandates? Hell yes! But I want mandates over caps and denial of prexisting conditions. And I'm sorry, but it's one or the other, whether we like it or not, in Insurance Land. Would I have wanted a public option. Hell yes to the tenth power. But convince me that leaving millions to languish is better. Do I think that insurance companies suck donkey balls. Hell yes! But again, convince me that leaving millions to languish is better. This bill is far from ideal. But it's a foot in the door. And I'm not a fucking cheerleader. I'm an advocate for the uninsured just like anyone else.

[truthrocks]

134. Pithlet, you are a voice of sanity in this disturbing trend of short-sighted Obama-bashing on DU

YES: This is simply "a foot in the door." NO ONE knows what this bill is finally going to look like - it's a work in progress that will be morphing into different iterations for years to come.

DU'ers defection = repub's are absolutely orgasmic. This is EXACTLY what they wanted. This exactly what they set out to achieve. Congratulations!

Repubs have ONE agenda in these four years: make sure Obama = FAIL. Period.

Ha! He hasn't.

[eridani]

152. It's a foot up our collective asses.

The Repukes win either way, unfortunately, because Dems whored out to insurance parasites.

[bighart]

198. Show me where any mandate on private individuals, escpeially when

the mandate requires everyone to fund a private industry, has ever been a good thing. Health insurance in no way equates to health care. Hell I have insurance but almost never go to the dr. because I can't afford all the co-pay's and so forth. So you tell me how this bill is going to provide actual health care to anyone. After premiums most people that don't have insurance now will still not be able to afford actual health care.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

98. I work at a hospital and volunteer at a free clinic

You know who shows up at my hospital? People with insurance.

You know who shows up at the clinic? People without insurance.

If you think that the root cause of the problem here is that TOO many people are going out and purchasing high deductible plans, then you don't know jack about how healthcare services are provided in this country.

[LostInAnomie]

99. Yawn

You'd think the indignance well would be running dry by now.

[Blasphemer]

102. K&R. nt

[thelordofhell]

105. Then start your own insurance company

I'm sure there are millions of people like you that will appreciate another insurance company that has no deductables or co-pays and will be more inexpensive than all the other companies out there.

[RetroLounge]

109. K&R

RL

[pinto]

112. Reforming *access* to health care was never about changing *health care*.

I'm a proponent for expanding Medicare coverage, over time, to all Americans. Yet I want to make the point that the health care reform debate is about expanding access. i.e. It's always been about health insurance reform. Not health care reform, per se. If Medicare was expanded tomorrow, for everyone, health care in the country wouldn't change, access would. That's the point.

May seem a minor point, yet the meme - health care reform vs. health insurance reform - sidetracks the goals of the process, imho.

Changing the specifics of Medicare coverage are effectively health care reform. Some good, some untested, some bad. Yet expanding access, in and of itself, has nothing to do with the care provided by Medicare reimbursed providers, outside of coverage changes.

:hi:

[ProSense]

113. "This whole bill is a sham " Note to the critics

You're wrong.

[varelse]

119. That's a great comfort to me

I can't wait to find out just how wrong we all are. I hope you are right.

[BrklynLiberal]

117. k & r

[Odin2005]

118. Thank you!

[bluedigger]

120. I don't need health insurance, I need health care.

I'll be 50 in a couple months. I have no insurance and multiple preconditions now. This bill means I'm fucked for the foreseeable future.

[NorthCarolina]

123. If you want to really change DC, vote for PROGRESSIVES

The more Liberal the better as far as I'm concerned. That would send the appropriate message from the people to Capitol Hill.

[Vidar]

124. K&R.

[fascisthunter]

125. Bump (nt)

[discocrisco01]

127. Get RId of Blue Dogs

The best way to dump the blug dogs is to run people who hold leftist views on economic and foreign policy. However, they have to be faith friendly and socially conservtive. Than then the district turns true blue.

Look, you cannot win the true progressive agenda in a lot of country. You have settle for progressive foreign and economic policy but allow for conservative view on social policy with in the big tent.

[MadBadger]

128. If we get rid of the blue dogs, every last one, Republicans would probably run the house.

[defendandprotect]

180. Only 20% of voters are now identifying as Repugs . . .

I've also read that Obama's win was much more of a landslide that was reported --

evidently as many as 24 House seats may have been stolen . ..

But when you think about that, if it's true, you also have to not be naive about

perhaps certain Democrats not want to have more than 60 in the Senate -- i.e., would

have been a landslide for single payer/Medicare for all.

This is just something I've read but obviously right wing forces don't work simply in

the Repug party -- as we see with this DEFORMED health care bill!!

In fact, when you consider the lack of leadership from Obama -- and the lack of leadership

from Harry Reid who personally squelched "negotiating the pharma companies on drug prices"

doesn't take much to get me there.

Basically, I think too many at DU have their BS meters set too low!!!


Happy Winter Solstice -- Nature's New Year!!!

[inna]

130. Right on, Odin! KR +97, nt

[mzmolly]

131. Right. Health insurance pays for health care.

:hi:

[dflprincess]

150. Maybe yours does

but a lot of people have big out of pocket plans that don't.

If you haven't seen "Sicko", I'd suggest you watch it. If you have seen it, watch it again and this time pay attention.

Over half the bankruptcies in this country are caused by medical bills and most the people declaring bankruptcy thought they were "covered". The scam passed by the Senate does nothing to protect people from going broke because of medical bills.

[mzmolly]

191. I've seen sicko and you make an excellent point.

However the new legislation prevents a person from being denied coverage because they're sick. That's part of what's being improved. I can't speak to how every issue will play out. But, if insurance companies do continue the status-quo, I believe we'll have a revolt because tax payers are footing the collective bill. They'll have to improve, or the public will demand change ala single payer IMO.

If I didn't feel that this legislation would have a lasting impact, if I felt this was the end, so to speak, I'd be less inclined to say anything positive.

You are right to have misgivings. And of course every system will have it's critics. For example, below are snips from a critique of the Canadian system:

"Initially the two governmental layers shared costs
equally, but as shifting demographics and increased
costs pressured the system, federal transfers decreased,
culminating in Ottawa’s dramatic slashing of
provincial healthcare budgets by $45 billion in 1995.
This resulted in further erosions of healthcare as
provinces closed beds, tightened reimbursements to
doctors,limited medical and nursing school enrollment,
and halted investment in new technologies."

And ...

"There is no prescription drug benefit in Canadian
Medicare. And drugs aren’t cheap there.
Some provinces offer public plans, for which
patients pay. There are private sector plans, for which
patients pay. Over 51% of Canadians—including the
elderly—either pay for private prescription drug
coverage or directly out of pocket. Another 49% opt
for provincial coverage that includes co-pays,
deductibles and/or limits."

More at link - http://ff.org/centers/ccfsp/pdf/CCSFP-PP-Winter-03.pdf

The paper above, while noted on a RW website, was written by an ex-pat from what I can tell?

I don't agree or disagree with the info I've shared regarding Canada, but I wanted to make the point I mentioned above.

[eridani]

154. Really? Tell that to Nataline Sarkisian

Too bad she's dead because her parents' claim was denied.

[mzmolly]

190. She's part of the reason we

need reform.

[eridani]

197. The "reform" leaves her every bit as dead

The insurance criminals still decide what claims will or will not be paid, and they dictate our choice of doctors.

[Digit]

132. K&R

I totally agree with Odin.

[winyanstaz]

133. K & R....yup...well said...thank you.

[2 Much Tribulation]

135. 2 Kinds of People: Uninsured Americans and those FALSELY Believing they HAVE INSURANCE. nt

See Land Shark post on that topic/title about a week ago or so.

[Quasimodem]

136. Health Insurance is not Health Care.

Health insurance is what now stands between too many Americans and the health care they need.

Health care does need to be reformed. The computerization of health records, for example, is needed to bring American doctors into the 21st century, or at least the late 20th century.

On the other hand, private health insurance doesn’t need to be reformed — it needs to be abolished. All monetary restrictions to decent health care in America should be removed, as it has been in every other modern western country on the planet.

Any bill which allows a private industry to make a profit while Americans are denied treatment is not addressing the problem. It is as much an obscenity as the practices which it was meant to remedy.

This is the Ebenezer Scrooge Health Care package: "Are there no charity clinics, no bankruptcy courts?"

[emald]

142. This is the real argument,

Insurance IS NOT HEALTH CARE. Simple really. Ordering the populace to pay for profits of a company is wrong wrong wrong. And it still does not equal health care.

[shotten99]

145. Personally, I live in Croatia with "public" insurance

And this is basically what we have:
Private insurance controlled by the government.
It's mandatory.
They tax us..a LOT.

The private insurance here is just as uncaring.
You can stand in line for hours for someone to
ignore you, insult you, and send you to another
line to wait in. If exchanges work half as well
as I think they will, then this will be just
fine.

[McCamy Taylor]

155. Amen. Often, health insurance in the US is an obstacle to health care.

[democrank]

165. K & R

[defendandprotect]

166. Agree and applaud what you're saying ... it's FEAR that makes these pacts with the devil....

it's fear that causes people to enter a downward spiral and HOPE that it will

lead somewhere more promising!!

Happy Winter Solstice -- Nature's New Year!!

[DailyGrind51]

174. However, this Bill is analogous to 400 neo-cons at the bottom of the ocean,...

it's a good start.

[thotzRthingz]

179. "Note to the apologists of this **** bill" ... as much as I agree with that characterization:

I prefer to channel my energy into FIXING THIS. No, not in a few years, not in a few decades, but in only a few short days! There are more than 50 votes in the Senate to pass a PUBLIC OPTION. The HOUSE has already passed it... all we need do is call upon the HOUSE members & leadership to stand their ground. There's no way OBAMA or the SENATE will allow this thing to fail... the NUMBERS are already there... it is up to *us* to make this happen!

Please join the fight, it will be an easy WIN!

see: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7320157

[Clear Blue Sky]

184. But they opened their wallets to members of Congress...

[TheWatcher]

185. K&R.

There is simply nothing to add to this.

The Truth does not need it.

Thank You for speaking it.

[bluedave]

186. Insurance lobby

YEAH,BUT IF YOU ARE A POOR BASTARD LIKE ME YOU ARE HISTORICALLY FUCKED--I GAVE UP MYSELF.

[dcsmart]

189. really...thanks for the heads-up

[nadinbrzezinski]

196. Unfortuantely for many complex poltiical reasons

this is the shitty bill we get, and the fight has just begun.

Until the American population learns that it needs to work BEYOND the accepted boundaries set by the political class...

I ain't holding my breath that this will happen in my lifetime though.