Senate Dems hidden tax. Fines for people with no insurance will be $750/yr max

[scubadude]

That is way lower than health insurance premiums will be. So, for many, this new health insurance deal will simply equate to a tax.

Gee, tax the folks who can afford it least...

"The Senate bill calls for fines for people who do not purchase coverage and are not exempt from a mandate to buy it. They start at $95 in 2014 and rise to $750 by 2016.

That's a lot more affordable than what some people would pay for insurance. A sliding scale of subsidies will help people or families with incomes up to 400 percent of the federal poverty level, or $88,200 for a family of four this year. But a family of four with income of $65,000 would still have to pay nearly 10 percent of that income, or $6,500, toward coverage."


http://www.ajc.com/business/senate-bill-could-hurt-256499.html

Scuba

[babylonsister]

1. Got a link to the final bill? Thx. nt

[Angleae]

46. Here you go

HR 3590

6 versions, the one the senate passed is #6 (at the bottom)

[babylonsister]

47. Thanks, but there is no 'final' bill yet; it still has to go

to conference afaik. So all this hand wringing is a bit premature.

[ixion]

2. call it what it is: a fine

for refusing to purchase a crappy, over-priced quasi-product from a for profit company.

I'm all for REAL health CARE reform. This is not that by any stretch.

[cali]

6. I keep repeating this: I have subsidized private insurance that costs me $60

bucks a month and provides me with access to excellent health care. Why do I have it? Because I'm poor. That's why. Don't see why other states can't do what mine has done to make health care accessible.

[KittyWampus]

8. New York has subsidized plans but you can not have resources valued over a certain amount

Cars, 401K's, joint bank accounts with elderly parents... all go towards what NY considers your resources.

What state are you in?

[bvar22]

51. She conveniently forgot to mention that she lives in Vermont...

..a state that can elect a Socialist Senator, but than states that she can "not see why other states can't do what mine has done."

[ixion]

18. $60 a month is a reasonable price to pay, in general

That would effectively represent a public option, as far as this bill goes.

If that were part of it, I would be more likely to support it, because it would provide competition to insurance companies and be very affordable.

I sincerely believe that open access to health care is a part of any health society. My deal-breaking issue with this bill is the insurance company mandate, without the check and/or balance of a strong public option.

[Donnachaidh]

22. and vermont has a SMALL population and a small amount of healthcare facilities

in comparison to other larger states.

You pay 60 a month -- mazel tov. But to equate that the sort of teeny program Vemont has will work in other states is delusional. And you know that.

But that hasn't stopped the *We have the best program* crowing, has it?

Life can be wonderful in an underpopulated state. But that isn't going to work everywhere else. The rest of us have to deal in reality.

[cali]

29. say what? Just because VT is a small state, doesn't mean that

it can't be used as a template for larger states. And if you prefer, use MA or Oregon. Not so teeny.

[Thickasabrick]

3. On the plus side, the $750 would not be contributing to the profit of the

insurers....so I would be good with that.

[grahamhgreen]

9. Unfortunately, it goes straight to big insurance to pay for the rest of the plan!

[Thickasabrick]

15. Well then I'm NOT good with it. I am against any law that forces me

to contribute to a for-profit industry.

[rgbecker]

32. Your DU id is very apt., Thickasabrick.

If you are paying any tax at all, your money is going straight towards the profits of all sorts of government contractors, including GE, Raytheon, Halliburton...the list is almost endless. I won't even start on the banks which have made out like bandits with the TARP money.

[Thickasabrick]

33. My id refers to people like you. Contractor payments go through

the government and are in no way a permanent agreement.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

44. then opt for the non-profit option of the plans in the final product

unless my memory is wrong, i am fairly sure i read that it would be a requirement to have non-profit plans available in all states as well

[bvar22]

52. That was part of the Republican counter plan.

Small Co-ops and local Non-Profits.
The reason WHY they were part of the Republican counter plan is they have a proven track record of not working.

There is nothing NOW that prevents the establishment of local non-profits.
We DON'T need the Senate Bill to do that.

[KittyWampus]

20. if you have time, could you let me know where that info comes from? Not being obnoxious

just really want to know if that is accurate.

[grahamhgreen]

39. Here is a CBO brief

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:TzmLAYJV3NEJ:www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/102xx/doc10243/05-27-HealthInsuranceProposals.pdf+CBO+health+care+mandate+revenue&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiKM-Hky_wV9RRilN6Sl3VjkO4HTzHJFomqbbOCJh-LPM5RoWxtCLuO4w588iXvJMjAANL4_17YLGsBrn9jnQI-bSZn8gSXH3pehs4U5584ez6tUNaJlpOYZch7DZm8bylYaCKl&sig=AHIEtbRwdFek0irLjOyZkmCBUKKLVTi-EA

From my understanding, funds are collected by IRS, then distributed to big insurance to pay for the other costs in the bill, including subsidies.

[KittyWampus]

4. A $750 fine is way less than the $6000 I currently pay now for medical insurance.

What I want is to get insured for that $750 even if its just basic.

[grahamhgreen]

12. The money should at least be applied to your premium

[KittyWampus]

14. Isn't that the sort of suggestion we should be bugging our Congresscritters about right now?

[grahamhgreen]

21. Last week I called twice! I think mine will hold firm for a public option!

[KittyWampus]

5. BTW, are you saying that $750 is too much to pay for Health Insurance?

[scubadude]

10. The $750 is actually a fine, with no healt care or insurance included.

You will still be uninsured. Just $750 stuffed into the Governments pockets. It's one way to help balance the budget.

Scuba

[Heddi]

11. $750 is the fine, not the cost of the insurance

the article states that many poor people would rather pay the $750 fine (which does not pay for coverage) than pay the amount they'd have to pay for coverage, which will be much more than $750.

[SoCalDem]

13. If a person comes up short every month, and has no health care

that $750 for a fine or health care is a moot point..

here's what I mean:

SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Wed Mar-21-07 04:09 PM
Original message

A single mom with one child can live easily on $10 an hour Updated at 9:16 AM

IF they can both eat on $2.88 a month and no one gets sick...or the car does not break down..and she drives with no car insurance..and the kid never outgrows clothing or shoes

(note that the figures used are deliberately LOW..most will have much higher amounts in "real life")

Where does a person like this find $750?

Of course , in the proposed plan, this person would qualify for medicaid..and if it were a couple, you could possibly double the income, and preserve some of the expense amounts, but remember that the transportation & food costs would rise considerably, and the "new" income figure would possibly boost that family into the "must pay for" insurance category......

There ARE people..MANY people who just do not make enough to even cover the barest of living expenses.. even adding $50 can drive them over the edge..

[KittyWampus]

17. I don't understand why DU'ers who are so upset aren't organizing a movement to get something

for that $750.

Instead we're trying to investigate Rahm Emmanuel.

[SoCalDem]

19. I suspect that many are "venting"..and until the final bill is written & signed

no one really "knows" what will be in it or out of it.. We must exercise some patience, and also must realize that our legislators really don't care all that much what we think..except when it's time to collect donations & votes..

[SandWalker1984]

35. Rahm was behind much of the back door deals with pharma & big insurance

Get him out of the game and we have a fighting chance to achieve some PROGRESSIVE reforms.

Newsweek ran a story back in 2006 about Rahm Emanuel. Emanuel was considered the model of a Congressional Democrat who wants to win more than he wants to do the right thing, and who therefore can't do either.

[Hello_Kitty]

24. Yeah, but in most places a single mom making $10 an hour is on Medicaid.

Medicaid is largely a program for poor single parents. $10 an hour would put the woman under the income threshold even in stingy-ass Arizona.

[grahamhgreen]

7. It's really a fine for being alive, since you get nothing in return

This horrible.

Pay for a boondoggle on the backs of the poor.

The money should come from payroll taxes and the repeal of the Reagan tax cuts, and go to your Medicare premium automatically like every other country, duh.

[Dream Girl]

38. But you will get government provided health care via the thousands of new

community health centers.

[Warren Stupidity]

16. The people who can afford it least will now qualify for medicaid.

So it is not the people who can afford 'it' least, it is people who are less unfortunate than those who can afford it least. Of the people without insurance who will not qualify for medicaid under this bill, those at the low end, again, qualify for subsidies that will result in premiums lower than the tax when the tax reaches its maximum level of 750. So those people will have a choice of subsidized premiums at less than the tax or the tax and no health insurance.

Most americans are actually already covered, across income levels, by either existing government programs or by employer based insurance, so again it is only a subset of the not quite those who can afford it least who will be affected. And again, the effect is to encourage them to opt in to health insurance. And there are a lot of assumptions in the theory that only people who cannot afford even subsidized insurance are in the small subset of americans who fall into the mandate policies. I don't have the data, and I am guessing that you don't either, but I will also guess that quite a few people without insurance are not exactly in low income brackets.

This bill has many flaws. What it doesn't need from our side is inaccurate criticism.

[Donnachaidh]

23. not when they lower the poverty levels, which is also in the works.

The people who will least be able to afford this draconian tax will be the poor bastards who are 5 bucks OVER medicaid eligibility. They won't HAVE the $750 tax money to pay out. Yet they are not POOR enough.

It makes you wonder just how quickly the politicians an elites want to drive the working class into third world poverty? Lowering the poverty level is probably just a start. Next they'll ask to lower minimum wage -- under the argument that it will create jobs.

[Warren Stupidity]

25. You let me know when the poverty level is lowered.

I simply do not believe 'that is in the works'.

[Donnachaidh]

27. it was posted here within the last couple of weeks

selective reading works well :eyes:

[Warren Stupidity]

49. well I am shocked. Thanks for the link.

[Donnachaidh]

50. any time! n/t

[Donnachaidh]

28. read this link --

http://www.rutlandherald.com/article/20091215/NEWS04/912150366/1004/NEWS03

[Donnachaidh]

30. and another

http://www.timesargus.com/article/20091215/NEWS01/912150361/0/news02

[Hydra]

31. Never doubt the power of blatent bribery

I bet I won't qualify, even making less than $20k and having a dependant disabled relative. I couldn't even get food stamps when I was unemployed for 9 months.

[bvar22]

54. or who have temporarily fallen into "hard times".

...but still own their home and are barely making ends meet.
Medicaid REQUIRES that you OWN NOTHING.

Compare our NEW "Uniquely American Solution" to ANY other Health Plan in ANY civilized nation, and then tell me we can't do any better.

[alfredo]

26. Do you get healthcare along with that fine? If you do

it is a back door public option.

[scubadude]

34. I haven't seen where the money is going so far.

Some folks say it will go to help the program. I don't believe there is any health insurance provided for that money. So you pay, and you still don't have health care... The problem is the Federal Poverty levels are really already quite low IMHO so the help you'll get from the Gov to help you pay for insurance is really nowhere near enough to purchase it. If you don't have enough, simply pay the fine and go on as you do now, with no health care.

I'm hoping there is some part of the bill that hasn't been mentioned that will make my post wrong. I'm hoping I'm wrong.

Scuba

[Dream Girl]

37. Yes you do!

[alfredo]

48. elaborate.

[Dream Girl]

36. With thousands of new community health centers...pay the fine and use them

works out cheaper and is essentially government provided health care.

[RainDog]

40. Why can't the bill mandate that the fine goes to create community health centers?

that money could be used to build, staff and otherwise fund health care centers. the building and staffing would create jobs.

those who don't want to pay insurance cos for health care obstruction could pay that "fine" instead and have access to non-profit health care.

I think that's a way to make this bill work for Americans.

People in health care fields who go to work for community centers would get their student loans forgiven by a % for every year they worked in community health practice rather than private practice.

everyone pays for health care in one way or another.

if we had the choice to "buy into" public health care in this way, it would provide competition for insurance cos because, if they (and they will) come up with ways to deny coverage or care or raise prices for services, people would have another option.

[Dream Girl]

41. That is how it's going to work....back door to single payer

[Dream Girl]

42. You can buy mandatory health care or pay the fine and use the community centers

[ipaint]

53. As long as you don't have anything more serious then the flu or a bad tooth.

I wasn't aware they offer surgery, chemo treatments and dialysis.

[RainDog]

45. that's what I hope will happen

Sanders, as far as I can see, is trying to work the system to create ways to undercut the corporate giveaway.

but the monies have to go toward infrastructure for public health, not insurance cos. that's the big issue. that's the way Americans can vote with their health care dollars.

[mzmolly]

43. There are so called religious exemptions.

We may need to start a new uhm, Church. ;)