Why the Hell are we Surprised they hate us???

[catnhatnh]

And what part do you not get about drones? Y'all better get this-death from the skies in other folks sovereign countries. How many have to die in New York state or for that many in Utah before that seems like a bad thing??

[The Straight Story]

1. Why are they surprised that we hate them?

Hate breeds hate.

[JVS]

6. Probably because we make the shift from "can't find on an a map" to utter hatred so quickly.

[pitohui]

2. what "they" are you talking about? one mentally ill rich brat banker's son?

i don't think your argument is v. convincing

nobody has declared war on us and no one is bothering to spend any $$$ on drones, to recruit a mentally ill young man who belonged in a mental hospital instead of out on the street is pretty damn easy and sleazy...but it hardly shows dedication, courage, conviction, or even much desire to spend much time and effort

if this is hate, it's a fairly placid and lazy form of hate, the sick young man fell into their lap, they took him and aimed him, but he could have been very easily stopped if the authorities had just listened to a worried father

[catnhatnh]

4. REALLY

The very idea that drones from thousands of miles away PAID FOR BY US and arrayed against other countries is fine by you?

[pitohui]

8. yeah, the march of technology is fine by me

what was the question again?

do i believe that drones should be used instead of soldiers? that we should develop ways to risk machines rather than human life and limb in war?

ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY

[EFerrari]

11. Rather than risk human life and limb?

What do you think those drones are hunting?

[NoUsername]

19. That's easy.

Other people's life and limbs. Like brown people, for example. 'Cause everyone knows that all brown people are terror'sts. C'mon Efarrarri, get with the program.

Uh, do I really need to add the sarcasm tag? REALLY?

[Barack_America]

12. I believe that human life and limb are risked in war by definition.

The question is whether you see the lives and limbs on one side of the conflict as inherently more valuable than the other.

[DeSwiss]

15. Push button warrior. n/t

[The Stranger]

3. I wonder if the undisputable declaration that any opposition is immoral, uncivilized and illegal,

. . . is the birth of terrorism.

[Barack_America]

5. What is most curious is that many of these terrorists are hardly "them".

Rather they are Muslims who were raised with considerable Western influence and "privilege".

That was the case with the culprits in the London attacks and with this one as well.

I don't presume to know why this is, but I wonder if there is something about being caught between two cultures that makes one more prone to subscribe to cultural extremes? Intuitively it seems this could be the case.

[catnhatnh]

7. WOW

I have no idea what to say. Other than you gave me a new thing to think about. Thank you for a great reply.

[Barack_America]

18. Thanks. And I forgot, but we can definitely add Major Hasan to the list.

He apparently took a hard turn towards extremism after the deaths of his Palestinian-born parents.

[The Stranger]

22. Almost by definition, human beings attempt to air their grievances peacefully first.

It is almost an axiom. Whether you are talking about individual relationships, or nations, anything in between, and the laws governing both and all of these, the first option is always a peaceful overture, a peaceful attempt. It is, indeed, almost an axiom.

Then if there is no reconciliation or redress of grievances, or, more importantly, if such a reconciliation or redress is ruled to be out of the question by one side, then it appears, if the grievance is sufficiently grave, that human beings resort to violence.

I am left asking myself why that isn't true here? (Perhaps, more importantly, why hasn't anyone else asked these questions?)

Instead of asking ourselves why these "terrorists" don't fit the usual definitions, which seem to have been provided by the media or by the government as an "Other," why aren't we asking ourselves what their grievances are? What propelled them to act in this manner?

Part of the terrorism cycle, it seems, is the declaring a certain set of beliefs to be illegal or immoral, unable to be discussed. That may be what then propels these people to violence. Then, after that happens, instead of asking the most logical question -- what was propelling this person to violence? -- we have been conditioned to ask "how" this person could be come "extreme."

According to the Power of Nightmares, we are conditioned to think that it involves something so dangerous, so evil, that even we as adults cannot know about it. Only the government and those in authority, like some sort of parents, can know about it and deal with it. We, even we as adults and more fully functioning than those dysfunctioned in authority, must be treated like children, and protected. (At least that is what they are telling us.)

The fear is so palpable and ubiquitous as it pours from every media orifice that we cannot even discuss it, the real "it" that is, the real issues.

Yet, since we still haven't examined what this "extreme" is, we only exacerbate the whole cycle of violence.

And then, of course, comes the refrain from those who perhaps implicitly seek to continue the cycle of violence, "don't negotiate with terrorists," although they negotiate with them all the time, just not on the subject of the real grievances that are creating the problem.

I think Barack Obama's speech in Cairo was only the very first chip at the wall in deconstructing this cycle of violence. It was a fascinating moment.

My bet would be that the government or those in similar positions of authority do know what is driving these poor idiots to "extremism" and violence. My bet would be that they are all too familiar with what is going on, but that they just don't want to tell us, or have it widely known. It better serves their interests to keep the people beholden as children, easily manipulated and controlled.

And that could be perhaps the most frightening realization of all.

[EFerrari]

9. That's interesting. As in "more Catholic than the pope".

As a bi-cultural person, I can see how those stresses/pressures would be there.

[Barack_America]

16. The IRA made a lot of money off this sort of thing.

Collecting money from Irish-Americans, perhaps hoping to reclaim some sort of Irish identity, but not necessarily understanding exactly what they were donating money for.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that some young Westernized Muslims are vulnerable similar pitches coming from Islamic terrorist groups.

A further point of interest is why we don't hear of terrorists coming from America's large Arab Muslim populations, such as Dearborn, MI. After the London bombings I remember reading some interesting speculation regarding how poorly Muslims have been integrated into British culture versus how relatively well they have integrated into American culture. Maybe it's that, or maybe it has more to do with strong Muslim communities maintaining cultural traditions here and doing a better job at putting the kibosh on extremism. Hard to say, but it is interesting.

[EFerrari]

21. Imo the reason we don't hear about it is because there are probably very few groups

of people who actually have terrorism as their goal. (This whole post-9/11 period has likely been a bonanza for scammers, though.) So the whole question has a small sample problem.

[pitohui]

10. no it's about being a loser when your dad is hugely successful and you can't catch up

osama bin laden was never going to be an oil sheik billionaire on the level of his dad but hey! he can prove he's his own man by becoming a whackjob and staking out his own little fiefdom

or this banker's kid dude -- it's just classic punishing the wildly successful father with which you can never compete, by becoming a complete and total shitbag public loser

it's more dramatic than the rich banker's kid in every small town who becomes a crackhead to prove he hates his dad but i can't see how the psych is any different...

[EFerrari]

13. But that doesn't explain the foriegn fighters that poured into Afghanistan

or into Iraq or into those areas Pakistan and India are disputing. They're not all rich kids out to get back at their dads.

[Barack_America]

14. As you mentioned, there are many ways to become a "complete and total shitbag public loser"

Bottom line, there's still a reason they choose terrorism, even if the motive is some sort of paternal payback.

[Romulox]

17. An escalation in Afghanistan is the ONLY thing that can protect us at home.

Oh...wait. :wtf:

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[malaise]

23. It's crazy isn't it

The US is killing innocent people from unmanned drones and the establishment cannot understand why the relatives or allies of the victims would find ways to mete out a similar fate to innocents in the US.
It's their old testament gawd at work. An eye for an eye.

Fuck all war. Fuck all killing.

[Mari333]

24. well, if China decided to send in hundreds of thousands of soldiers

to Michigan, and take over Michigan, and bomb my town, and round up my kids and throw them in cells where they were tortured, and kick down my door and round my family up, and sell off my land to a corporation, and pronounce themselves my rulers by sticking a dictator in public office in Lansing, I would probably fight back and kick some ass.
Who can blame them for hating us? we ARE the bad guys.

[Echo In Light]

25. Succinct +1