I can't believe how little we expect of our students

[lastliberalintexas]

I really don't know where else to post this, and I just need to vent for a second (even if this goes wholly unnoticed!). I've been out of high school for many, many years, and I doubt my college years were anything more than what most Europeans/Asians learn in their "high schools". Although I have a couple of family members who are teachers and they have complained bitterly for several years about the state of education, their complaints have usually focused on the testing issues (some form of a standardized test has been in place in TX for the last 20 years). But I never truly understood the situation in which we as a country find ourselves until recently. I am not complaining about the vast majority of teachers or even many administrators, since I honestly think they are trying to do the best they can in a system which tightly limits their options.

Now that my child is in school, I must say that I no longer have any doubts as to why we lag so far behind the rest of the industrialized world. Or why checkers can't count change back to me or give me the correct change without the register telling them the amount. Or why people can't spell (between phonics and textlanguage, I'm surprised we can communicate with one another at all). Or even why I'm met with odd looks for daring to use a descriptive vocabulary word.

I won't go into details about my child, since my venting really isn't just about his particular situation. But I must say I am appalled. Why is it that the French and Fins can have a top notch educational system in which their children actually learn to think critically and engage their brains, but the "best country in the world" can not? Yes, that's rhetorical. :(

[shraby]

1. I have to take issue with your disparaging of phonics.

I was one of the first to be taught with phonics way back in 1948 in first grade, then it was a hit or miss thing. I learned to read with it and my cousin didn't. I was by far the better reader. Then later on they came out with the Oh see Dick and Oh see Jane books and that was the beginning of the end of reading. Boring books do not entice children to become readers much less to want to learn to read.

[elleng]

4. I had dick and jane, and my kids had INTERESTING paths to reading!

Since they've been in school, I've wanted to return!

[raccoon]

104. Dick and Jane seemed almost CALCULATED to turn someone off to reading. nt

[elleng]

123. Hadn't thought of it, but wasn't much of a reader until 'recently,' tho law practice demands it.

[lastliberalintexas]

6. Then perhaps a differentiated curriculum based on a particular student's needs?

Phonics have actually hindered my son's reading. He was a self-taught reader by the age of 4, and school has screwed up some of his reading skills and lately desire to read because now he's afraid he'll not know a word. (he's also very much a perfectionist)

But then that goes back to how little we apparently care about the education of our children as a nation. We can't spend money on things like differentiated curricula, because then the football team might only have 2 practice jerseys instead of 3.

[Brickbat]

21. Phonics screwed up both of my kids' reading abilities, too, briefly.

I hate phonics. I think it teaches nothing but that reading is monotonous and boring. People don't talk in all short-a or "ch" sounds; why should we expect kids to love reading when they're forced to read stories like that? And I'm not talking Seuss -- if they used Seuss to teach phonics, that would make sense. Instead, we're stuck with 30-year-old textbooks with stories that are so stupid my daughter is embarrassed to read them out loud to me at home as part of her homework. It drives me right up the wall.

[lastliberalintexas]

25. So at some point they go back to reading?

And actually enjoy it again? How long did it take for your kids?

Sorry for the questions, but I am hoping this too shall pass! :)

[Brickbat]

30. No worries!

Well, my kids are HUGE readers. They both could read at 3 and read books independently and at great lengths before they were in school. Both of them, for about the first six months of reading education (kindergarten for one, 1st grade for the other -- curricula differed because it was in different school districts), slid back a bit in their reading proficiency as they tried to reconcile phonics with their whole word/reading fluency. BUT because they loved reading, both did eventually get over it before the end of the school year.

It's key, of course, to read to them and with them and to encourage reading on their own. My kids (now 7 and almost 11) read ALL THE TIME. They read in the bathroom. They read at breakfast. Brushing their teeth. In the car. On the bus home from school. At supper, if I let them. In bed. SO. If your kid loved reading before he ran into phonics, he should get through it OK. One thing I tried to do was not push "sounding it out" if they were reading something for fun and were struggling with a word, and when they wrote notes to me and misspelled things I read the notes for what they said and did not correct the spelling at all. There's enough time for spelling later -- and I say this as a professional editor. I wanted them to understand that it was the word, the communication -- the idea that they could write something down and I could understand it, what power! -- that was important.

Sorry for the ramble -- good luck to you!

[lastliberalintexas]

35. Thank you!

I hope my son follows your children's path! We do still read to and with him, and when he is reading to me and runs into trouble with a word all I have to do is whisper "Ignore the phonics" and he continues reading the sentence with no problem. Before this year, he loved to read, would sit and pore over books for hours, but now hardly ever initiates the activity himself. I feel like we are walking a fine line, because I don't want to push reading and make him rebel, either.

Good luck with your kiddos too- it sounds like they're on the right track! :)

[Brickbat]

39. "Ignore the phonics" -- classic!

I would also suggest getting a lot of books on tape or CDs or checking them out of the library. My son LOVED that. He loves falling asleep to someone reading and at almost 11 still listens to the Narnia books as he goes to sleep. My daughter loves listening to the Magic Treehouse books and the Little House in the Big Woods.

Is your son in kindergarten? It's possible that he's still processing all the social and other changes that happen when you get to kindergarten, and is putting reading on the back burner for a bit. As long as you have books around, and make reading a priority (for example, I NEVER took away the reading-to-them-before-bed as a punishment, although sometimes I would shorten it), and make time for yourself to read, he'll stick with it, I bet.

[Better Today]

60. So parents reading at bedtime is now replaced with taped stories. Wow,

I'd never have wanted to relinquish my reading to my children as they went to sleep, or by the age of 11 both of mine were reading to themselves at bedtime, usually late into the night. I had a rule they had to be in bed, but not asleep, by 8pm, but once in bed, they could read as late as they wanted.

Oh, well, I'm old fashioned I guess.

[marshall]

90. Unfortunately not all parents have the time, interest, or even ability to read a bedtime story

Some aren't even home when the kids go to bed.

[Brickbat]

114. Very good point.

[Brickbat]

113. Fortunately, I didn't say "replace" or "instead of".

Nor do I suggest it. It's an addition. I still read to my kids at night, and then, like yours, they are allowed to be up as late as they want as long as they are reading in bed. They like to fall asleep to the sound of the CD reading. While I love reading to my kids, I am not willing to read all of "The Silver Chair" to my son as he cleans his room. With the book on CD, he can listen as he cleans.

[pnwmom]

71. Another trick for the bright but reluctant reader --

keep reading to them all the time of course. And then tempt them.

After I had finished reading the latest Harry Potter to my son, he was feeling book deprived. So I bought the first book of a series I thought was more at his level (The Magic Treehouse) and started reading it to him. Then I got busy and had to stop reading -- at a cliffhanger. I told him I didn't think he was quite ready to read it himself yet, that I had really gotten the book for his older cousin, but that I would read more when I had time.

A while later he came to me and announced he had read three pages all by himself! I said, "Gee -- well I guess if you could read three pages, you could probably read the whole thing. Wow!"

And he did. And then the 20 other books in the series. And thus was born a reader.

[Brickbat]

116. I strongly recommend Magic Treehouse books to everyone.

Some of the writing is a little lazy, but my kids have learned so much from them.

What a great idea to stop at a cliffhanger! That's excellent.

[Pithlet]

136. That's a great idea. The Magic Treehouse is a big hit for mine, too.

Mine aren't reading chapter books quite on their own yet, but I image they'll be on the list when they do.

[Better Today]

140. I took it one step further, and had mine read it to me while I kept busy

cooking dinner or whatever. I think having done that also helped with the social aspect of public speaking, or speaking at the front of class if you will.

[pnwmom]

145. That's great when you have someone who's comfortably reading.

But I was dealing with someone who lacked some confidence -- he needed to feel that the whole idea was coming from him. He was willing to try reading the book as long as he didn't think I expected him too. If I had just directly asked him to read to me, he would have said, "I can't!"

[liberal_at_heart]

174. My son is autistic and struggles with reading

He is now at a stage where he can read chapter books but is very picky. He will only read books that have alot of action in them and he is very intimidated by big books. He has read the first two Harry Potter books but is stuck on the third one. I'm thinking Harry Potter is just too advanced for him right now. Animorphs on the other hand is a big hit with him, and I just bought the whole series for him. All fifty books, well forty-eight actually; the seller only had books 1-48.

[seabeyond]

175. how old is your son. both my boys have read some good series books. nt

[liberal_at_heart]

177. He's 11

[seabeyond]

179. excellent. perfect age. will call in both boys.... booklist for boys

my youngest got into the potter series and sense of accomplishment, proud, reading such a big book. but really enjoyed

rangers apprentice... john flanigan. he really enjoyed
artimes foul (sp?)... eion colfer
percy jackson and olympian series... rick riodion (sp)
jackie faber... forgot author

both boys like different reading material, here is what oldest liked at that age.

louis lamour
alex rider.... anthony horowitz

he read advanced books and not really series, not so much fiction. more into reality and fact based

but youngest son really got into his series. i love to find series for the kid.

have fun with list

[liberal_at_heart]

180. I'll look into some of them. Thanks

[Biker13]

184. Good For You!

I'm a teacher, actually a Professor of Theoretical Mathematics, but my best friend has her Doctrine in Education. Her thesis was on reading comprehension. One fascinating fact she discovered, was that the best readers were the worst spellers. I don't fully understand it, but it had something to do with how good readers recognized words. Poor readers saw every letter, while good readers processed whole word.

I'll ask if I can post a link to her paper.

Biker's Old Lady

[ohheckyeah]

57. I was taught with phonics when all else failed

and phonics worked great for me. My parents encouraged our reading by giving us an extra half hour before bedtime but ONLY if we read. If regular bed time was 9:00 we could stay up until 9:30 if we read a book and they made sure we had plenty of books. I still love to read at bedtime.

[seabeyond]

84. my oldest has to be taught 2, 3, 4 different methods in things before one of them clicks

many times with math, my oldest does not get what the teacher is saying. so at home, we have to find two or three different ways of showing him how to do. when one clicks he is good to go.

kids learn differently. the schools work hard finding different paths to allow that click. it confuses some kids in class, (experience with youngest), but it allows the click with other students.

[pnwmom]

130. Unfortunately, the schools in my district are on a "scripted curriculum."

The district thinks there is one perfect way and one set content to teach all students -- down to the day and the lesson -- and that they have found it.

This idiotic idea came along in time for my third child, and so I knew better (having already had two older children who are completely different). If I hadn't been able to put him in a private school we would have had to move.

But the scripted curriculum seems to be the wave of the future.

[seabeyond]

134. our school give "strategies" in both math and english. kids hate it

but they have to do it for a grade. and it makes kids break down and take time. the strategies they used to teach simple more than one column arithmetic worked for oldest, adn confused the hell out of youngest. i told youngest, ... his brain, do it original way. the way he understands. other way confuses.

i have talked to school about it cause of oldest different learning. we talk how they present two and three different ways, focusing on math.

[eridani]

56. I found it useful sometimes

I was an early reader, and one of the most frustrating things about schoold for me was how badly it cut into my reading time. I think that in order to make phonics work for you, you just have to accept that 20% or so of English words don't make sense according to simple rules. I just memorized those.

[tonysam]

122. Kids are supposed to learn SKILLS, not be entertained

Linking the sounds to the letters is absolutely critical or they never learn to read worth a crap.

[lastliberalintexas]

125. Perhaps you missed that my son and Brickbat's children

were reading *before* ever being introduced to phonics. At the age of 4 my son could read astronomy books aimed at 4th and 5th graders and the Encyclopedia Brown series. Glad to know that without phonics he was doomed. Nope, I haven't seen any regression at all since the introduction of phonics. :eyes:

[Brickbat]

126. Oh, I forgot that learning skills couldn't possibly be entertaining.

Thanks for the reminder.

[a la izquierda]

155. You need to urge your son NOT to be a perfectionist...

it will be much better for him as he grows (particularly if he ever wants to learn foreign languages). I am a perfectionist, and this has been a huge hindrance over the years (I'm getting my PhD now, and the perfectionism has been a problem with my writing and foreign language abilities).

[happy_liberal]

191. my son was reading before kindergarten

but starting falling behind his sister two years younger when he started school.

Since I consider school to be for furthering education I started homeschooling and never went back. My kids are far advanced for their grade level, and yet have plenty of time to pursue activites of their own interests. I am learning more about geography and history now than I did in school because my kids read all sorts of interesting stuff and tell me about it...and because it is interesting my kids retain more information than I ever did. They have also had the time and interest to read more books than I ever did.(unless you count reading the net since George W) They have done so much reading, that teaching grammar, spelling...pointless. They already have your and you're, lose and loose down better than most adults. They have both written several 100 page novels.

The best thing about homeschooling(besides being able to sleep in and get the required sleep that I believe children need to learn properly) is that they are able to think for themselves, discuss current events, and they are becoming who they are meant to be, not what the current popular TV culture(which controls most children) tells them they should be, do or want.

[dflprincess]

14. How big a reader a child becomes has a lot to do

with how much the parents read to the child.

I learned to read with "Dick & Jane" - which was fine when we first started (I remember being thrilled to learn to read) but they did drag D & J on too long. But, both my parents read to me and in the evening, they might have the tube on, but they also had the newspaper or book on their laps that they were paying more attention to than the T.V.

[bertman]

22. I'm a reading fiend. Have been since I was in elementary school. My parents rarely read

to me. Both read the paper but weren't religious about it.

Just sayin'.

[seabeyond]

100. my father saying how easy i was as a kid. he said.... ever a problem i would just go into room

and read, lol. made it really easy for them. i still read 4, 5, 6, 7, books a week, depending how much time i have. or how much time i spend on du, lol. no tv for me. give me a book.

[raccoon]

105. Ditto. I can't EVER remember my parents reading to me. But I've always been an avid reader. nt

[GoCubsGo]

157. I don't remember my mom reading to me, but she did.

I just don't remember it. :-)

[Kali]

36. I've got two readers and one who isn't.

Didn't really read to them very much, but I am a voracious reader and the house is full of books.

[dflprincess]

53. I notice with my nieces and nephews that the older ones

who did get read to more are bigger readers than the younger ones. My brother is more of a reader than my sister-in-law. (Maybe it's genetic? :shrug:)

One of the younger, nonreading ones (who is 19 now) was in the hospital for a few days last month and bored out of his mind. I brought him a couple books, but I have no idea if he cracked and even opened one of them. I just can't imagine not being a reader, besides it being entertaining and informative, how do you kill time when you're in the hospital or in a waiting room if you don't read?

[liberal_at_heart]

54. I didn't read to either of my children, my daughter is a reader, my son is not

Of course my son is autistic. All forms of communication are a struggle for him, writing especially.

[waiting for hope]

58. I read somewhere that having a house full of books

is just as conducive to reading as reading to the child.

[JHB]

64. That was a factor when I was growing up

I took phonics as a kid, but have no idea if I had problems with it or not (which may indicate it wasn't a problem for me), but the parental units are both voracious readers, and nearly every room in the house had filled-up bookshelves.

[JCMach1]

69. That's how my non-reader, slightly dyslexic daugher has turned into a reader

She is 11 now and currently devouring the Darren Shan (spelling?) series.

And, she just finished 'Where the Red Fern Grows'...

[pnwmom]

72. Not always. I read a gazillion books to my daughter, but she always loved

math. Played math games in her head instead of reading. Built things with hundreds of little parts instead of reading. Went on to become an engineer.

Now, in her 20's, she's actively reading books for pleasure -- and passing them on to me. So there's always hope, if you wait long enough!

[greenbird]

154. Not always.

My two grown daughters are voracious readers, and fit the pattern you describe. I read to both of them when they were little, and restricted TV. However, my 14-year-old was raised the same way, and has no interest in books at all. Understand, this is a house where books line the walls; there is no lack of reading material. Her friends are big readers, but it just hasn't clicked with her. I don't understand it at all, but on the other hand, thirty years of parenting has brought much that I don't understand!

[tonysam]

121. Generations of people have been taught phonics and with NO ill effects.

It's been around literally for centuries. When I was in school there were VERY few students who didn't know how to read. Nowadays we have too much inappropriate curriculum, including that whole language garbage which denigrates spelling, grammar, and phonics in favor of some crazy high school style pedagogy. It has been a total disaster, and I believe is one of the chief reasons there has been an explosion of "LD" kids in special education. The vast majority of students in sped should not be there.

[dkf]

2. Too much memorization not enough thinking.

[Igel]

16. Not enough of either.

Or, rather, a push to teach critical thinking devoid of a sufficient factual basis, and too early.

It's hard to teach it to pre-teens. What you get is echoes.

Even with teens, it's hard to teach critical thinking. Remember: If you approach research chemists with critical thinking problems from history, they react like high school graduates because that's pretty much where their history training stopped. If you approach historians with critical thinking problems from chemistry, they stop at about the same place. If you don't have sufficient facts, all the critical thinking skills in the world amount to so much wanking off. It's easy to be critical, but thinking critically is rather a different thing.

So now they teach some facts, but not as many as they used to. Or, rather, they circumscribe the facts that they teach to make it less hard for students to figure out the minimum to learn: They put a limit on the facts most kids are exposed to and unless you're lucky enough to be in the right program you really have no exposure to them. Versus 30 years ago (and moreso 60 years ago) where you'd be exposed to far more facts than you needed to know, than most could learn.

[liberal_at_heart]

18. I hate the math curriculum in our school system; they don't teach times tables

They use what they call everyday math which of course children need to learn everyday math like counting change but how in the world are they ever going to learn algebra and calculus if they can't even multiply? My daughter wants to be a veterinarian so of course she is going to need very good math skills. Luckily she has a good teacher this year and she has had kind of a light bulb moment where she finally gets most of it now. She struggled for several years though and the curriculum did not help. I heard somewhere recently that we have more administrative positions in our American school system than we do teaching positions. Something doesn't seem right about that.

[lostnfound]

52. May I suggest the book "Dumbing Us Down"

I agree with the next post which suggests that it isn't in the interest of the elites to have the masses learn to think critically. Curriculum, standards, and teaching methods have been largely homogenized across the country, and not in a good way. Every year brings new experiments in how to confuse students without making it seem intentional..

[seabeyond]

92. a parent spends more time with the kid. are you saying that parent cannot teach child critical

thinking. i was teaching insisting on critical thinking from kids before they made it into school. why in the world would we blame school for not doing our job.

no way would i place responsibility of critical thinking for my child on the schools.

[Rabrrrrrr]

150. Lack of capitalization, lack of commas and question marks, random grammar...

missing noun determinors, faulty prepositions...

seriously, your post is a massive fail from a language perspective.

[seabeyond]

159. and? nt

[Rabrrrrrr]

165. You said, and I quote, "i was teaching insisting on critical thinking from kids"

and "no way would i place responsibility of critical thinking for my child on the schools". As well as a lot of other real gems in other posts in this thread.

and I'm just pointing out how that's not.... well, seems to be a lot of contradiction going on there between what you say you do, and the way in which you say it.

And given the number of posts here lamenting the truth that schools don't teach grammar, spelling, syntax, or communication skills very well any more and, gee, your posts show up and offer the truth of it on a giant silver platter, perfectly wrapped up for the holidays, like a gift from God.

[seabeyond]

167. comma = critical thinking? maybe you and i ought to work on that

ole critical thinking.

on edit to add: i understand my grammer and sometimes puncutation stinks. i dont care. lol. i hear what you are saying. it gets a, so what? i am what i am... read or dont. giggle if you want. not where the emphasis is in my posts.

[woo me with science]

127. +100 nt

[Hello_Kitty]

3. It's not in the best interest of the elites for children to learn

That leads to critical thinking, which is bad for them and not conducive to obedient drones.

[elleng]

8. Its the so-called elites, or some of them, who promote REAL education,

encouraging children to do what they do best, PLAY AND LEARN!

[ieoeja]

117. The other poster is talking about the real elites. Not the so-called elites.

The so-called elites would be the educated elite. There is nothing all that elite about being educated. At least there should not be.

The real elites are the wealthy class that runs the entire Republican Party and a good bit of the Democratic Party. They want people educated enough to do their jobs. But not educated to think independantly.

The attempt to get rid of public education today is no different than it was when the King tried getting rid of it in the colonies (yes, dittoheads, public education pre-existed the founding of the United States of America contrary to what that dipshit you listen to claims; look it up). The chief justice in the colonies privately wrote to the King that the masses had become too educated and restless. While he publicly campaigned for the elimination of public education on the grounds that it was failing. Sound familiar?

[seabeyond]

118. this is what bothers me the attacks on our private schools and so many dems falling for it. nt

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. I teach some college courses

and I can't believe how poor some students' writing skills are. They can barely spell (even with computer spell-check); their grammar is atrocious; and they can barely string a coherent sentence together. How they could have passed a basic high school English class is beyond me -- back in the Pleistocene era when I was in school, the average seventh-grader could write better than some of these kids.

Maybe these skills are no longer being taught at all. I don't know, but it's really discouraging.

[lastliberalintexas]

10. I feel for you

I saw a couple of papers written by students at a local school (no student identifying information included) and was also appalled at both the lack of writing skill and the incorrect content they contained. Really- how hard is it to use google to find out that JFK was not the Democratic president immediately after the 1929 stock market crash? I guess s/he should get some credit for knowing that particular president went by 3 initials?

[sandnsea]

11. They aren't

They think if kids read and write a lot, they'll pick up grammar rules through osmosis. I was taught well in 7th grade and I can't remember how to write a correct sentence most of the time. I don't even know how someone manages who was never taught.

[janx]

32. Most kids do pick it up through osmosis, provided they read a lot.

There's not much reading going on these days. I'm talking about reading for enjoyment.

[sandnsea]

37. I read all the time. I had to be taught.

Kids DO NOT pick up proper punctuation and sentence structure just through reading. Of the so many stupid ideas that educators have come up with in the last 20 years, that's got to be one of the top five.

[janx]

43. It depends on what they're reading.

And the knowledge of a foreign language, early on, will help immensely. But kids do pick up on how to write if they've grown up reading books. There's no doubt about that. I've seen the results.

[sandnsea]

51. No they don't. I've seen the results

You've seen your own delusions.

[seabeyond]

86. the schools focus way more on writing today than yesterday. maybe it is kids learning computer talk

that is fucking up their complete sentences. that is what i see with youngest. he writes and i am continually telling him, COMPLETE sentences, not computer talk. i know since i started using the computer i have to focus to write properly. mostly i dont do the focusing

BUT

from the youngest of age they are doing writing and sentence structure and yes... they do it to the test, but they are doing bit by bit, year after year... progressing to competent writing. it is there. truly. more so than my days. i am impressed. it is if the child values it and grabs hold of it, or ignores it.

[sandnsea]

91. They write all the time

My kids wrote all the time too. But they never taught them sentence structure. Punctuation, prepositional phrases, parts of a sentence, all of that. They just wrote and had very basic corrections made, but were never taught any grammar rules so they wouldn't make the same mistakes in the future. This was long before text messaging and all of that, so that wasn't the problem. My son was in AP history and math classes, but had to take remedial writing in college because he was never taught the mechanics of grammar and punctuation.

[seabeyond]

94. both my kids got it in elementary and middle school. and when youngest writes at home

i ALWAYS make him re read and edit.

i dont know what oldest is doing in high school.

have three kids now, gonna stop and ask.

2 sons, one niece. lots in elementary. 3-6. middle school son, 6th grade still gettting refreshers but he thinks about at the end.

junior in high school, teacher still corrects on the errors but teaching more to writing styles and flexibility in writing.

son, freshman english, teacher still talks sentence structure but teaching more about writing like writers and different ways to do sentences.

all three kids, english is easy, not so much math. all three kids embrace the teaching cause so easy. they are willing to learn this stuff cause so easy. again, math not so much

it is there

i read a poemish writing from son a week ago so kick ass, easy flowing, different style, excellent.

other son did a book for math and teacher so impressed showed to principal and called me to brag on kid.

again, these are the subjects my kids excel, so easy for them. i understand. but it is there.

[JCMach1]

68. Let's see, we opened-up college education to almost EVERYONE in the states

and we expect them to write like white, privileged kids from the 1950's... I don't think so.

[Posteritatis]

112. When TAing history I felt at times I was TAing English Comp instead

I don't begrudge the extra marking time on things like papers - I enjoyed it, not least because I knew I was avoiding the "basic unhelpful corrections" thing I hated so much when I was on the other side of the grading process - but I wish it wasn't so necessary. The red-inking I'd put on papers was probably about 50/50 actual-paper-content and lurn-rite-English-gud commentary.

I've "only" run into a few genuine illiterates so far, but I really shouldn't be running into any by the point of a first or second-year undergraduate course. Ugh.

[Codeine]

147. A friend of mine in a post-graduate environment

showed me a stack of papers from his classmates that he was given for a peer-grading exercise; it was mind-boggling. These are students with degrees and they are completely incapable of forming a coherent thought on paper. I was gobsmacked.

[rwheeler31]

7. Would you teach ?

[lastliberalintexas]

12. It would not be in the best interests of the children for me to teach

I recognize my own limitations, otherwise I just might be considering homeschooling my child. I admire most teachers, because they have to not only know the content of their subject, but also be able to impart that knowledge to others. No small feat, that.

[liberal_at_heart]

24. I hate the everybody can be a teacher mantra

Give back to your community. Be a teacher. I don't think so. Why are we allowing anybody with a baccelourette degree to be a teacher? We need teachers that have a teaching degree and preferrebly a Masters in education degree.

[janx]

33. !!!

:rofl:

[Better Today]

61. OMG, WBS.

[wickerwoman]

138. I don't know.

I think being a great teacher is like being a great writer. Some people just are. Some people can study it for their whole lives and never get close.

And an MEd is like an MFA in that it's nice to have the extra letters after your name but they don't mean a whole hell of a lot (except that you paid a lot of money for a certification that may or may not mean that you're actually good at what you do.)

I've taught next to people with no qualifications whatsoever who made my jaw drop they were so good and people with MEds with their heads so far up their asses it was amazing they could find the classroom.

It's already way too much of a pain in the ass to become a teacher in the US. I have ten years experience, including two years as a curriculum designer, but can't teach here because I refuse to pay money for yet another six month certification program teaching me what I already know when my subject expertise and teaching skill could be easily evaluated with a test, interview or demonstration class.

And the pay is still completely miserable. Name another job that requires at least five years of tertiary education with a starting salary in the low $30,000s.

I agree that not everybody can be a teacher. I actually think that very few people can be great or even good teachers. But trying to get more people to go for teaching degrees isn't the answer either. You'd have to be insane to go into any kind of debt with student loans and then plan to teach after college.

[liberal_at_heart]

146. My kids' school district has around 80% teachers w/ Masters of Ed

and a graduation rate of 95%. The inner city schools don't have very many teachers with Masters of Education degrees. Of course the inner city also has to deal with the fact that the parents are either too busy to get involved in their kids' education or are just indifferent to their kids' education. You are right that some are born teachers and some are not. My daughter had a math teacher last year that has obviously lost his passion for the job and the kids suffered because of it. But I believe that having qualified teachers has alot to do with how well the kids do.

[wickerwoman]

151. Correlation is not causation.

I can think of half a dozen more plausible reasons for a lower drop-out rate at your local district vs. inner city schools.

When was the last time you read a book because the author had an MFA? Was it better than books written by authors without one?

The only reason I could think of for *needing* an MEd would be if you wanted to become a curriculum designer. Otherwise, demonstrated competence in your subject field(s) and a three to six month certification course covering basic theory and some practice teaching should give you everything you need to start out. After that, you've either got talent and motivation for teaching or you don't. Spending two more years in college to get an MEd won't give you either of those things any more than throwing a random person off the street into an MFA program will turn them into a great sculptor.

I honestly think that the onerous training requirements for teachers are part of the problem. If you've spent six years in college racking up debt to get an MEd once you step into your $35,000/year teaching job you have no real way to get out of it. And if, at the end of all that time, effort and debt, you find that you don't really like teaching or aren't really good at it, there's no way to change jobs. You have to stay employed to pay off the loans and credit cards. And this leads to a lot of burn-out even among quite talented teachers.

So as strange as it sounds, I think making it easier to become a teacher will lead to better teachers. There are quite a few older people who are subject experts and have talent for teaching who don't want to go back to school or into debt to get another degree for what is essentially a low-paid, dead-end position with very little job security. If you make the job accessible and attractive to older people without degrees who need to work for a few more years to build up their retirement savings, you would have a nice pool of qualified people who actually have something to teach.

[liberal_at_heart]

164. Well I guess we just see things differentely

I would not put my kids in a school that had a low percentage of teachers with Masters of Education degrees. I do agree that the cost of a higher education is a huge probelem in this country. Teacher pay is also a huge problem. It is harder for people to afford a Masters of Education degree. That is what should be made easier to get. Not a teaching position.

[aquart]

9. It wasn't like this in the past.

I have a bowdlerized public school textbook of Hamlet from 1946. In the back are suggested essay questions. I can't see most of those questions being given to any but our graduate students today, and then only the most advanced.

[snagglepuss]

23. So true. Expectations on children back then were extremely high. nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. American culture has been dumbed down

Look at the textbooks that high school students were expected to read in the 1960s versus what they're expected to read now.

Your average Middle American wants two things out of his local school system: 1) His kids qualifying for either college or a job, and 2) Winning sports teams.

Sometimes the order is reversed. If "producing educated and culturally literate citizens" is anywhere on the list, it's down there past "Providing suitable kids for my kid to be friends with and/or be romantically involved with," "Having shiny new, well-equipped buildings with lots of computers," and "not raising my property taxes too much."

[Kaleva]

20. Both of my grandfather's senior year was the 6th grade and my father-in-law never learned to read.

Back in the good old days, many kids dropped out of school as soon as they were old and strong enough to work full time in order to help support their families.

[lastliberalintexas]

26. One of my great aunts never finished 8th grade

Yet she knew more than many college students of today. The classical education our parents or grandparents had, to whatever grade level, usually served them far better than the test driven curricula of today. I know a handful of functional illiterates- I had just assumed they were the exception in their generation, but I am learning they are more representative than I thought. Not of the majority of 20 year olds, mind you, but still more than I thought.

[Kaleva]

38. My eldest stepson is studying to be a doctor.

My step-daughter is studying to become a veterinarian. My future daughter in law is majoring in environmental science while my future son-in-law is studying to become a mechanical engineer. I cannot hold a candle to them in matters of science, math, or writing ability but I can whoop up on them when it comes to politics, history, current events and geography.

[madrchsod]

15. it`s really simple--we teach to test not to learn.

if you think it`s bad now wait until arne duncan finishes off the public school system.

[proud2BlibKansan]

81. + 1000000

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. I see a lot of that in the courses I teach

I usually teach gateway courses into several major(s). The ones you have to pass with at least a B to get into the field. At times I despair for our future. Students do not seem to realize that there are places and times in life where fixed performance standards must be met. Some find that shocking and outrageous.

[seabeyond]

19. in the lower grades participate as a parent. kids got a great education and i worked with teachers

making sure my kids did what the teachers expected them to do. when they hit 6th grade, make sure they are in the AP courses. the kid will get an excellent education. the opportunity is there. depends if the kids takes that opportunity. since most kids are not self motivated, a parent demanding it of the child, expecting it of the child, goes a long way

[lastliberalintexas]

27. But that can only go so far sometimes

If the schools had higher standards and my child could be pushed in school, we might not be having the struggles we are. But he has already learned that being ahead just means he'll get to tutor others, not learn anything new, so why should he put forth the effort?

[liberal_at_heart]

31. Tutoring others can be good for them

My daughter use to hate math. She didn't understand it. Sometimes she would get so frustrated she would cry. Now she does understand it and she teaches her classmates that are struggling. Teachers will tell you that you can learn by doing but when you teach you master it. It also builds confidence. My duaghter comes home so excited and confident. In fact her school called her down to the principle's office and gave her a gift certificate for a milk shake because on a team test she stayed after class to help her teammates that were struggling. She showed real leadership, and her teacher called me up to congraultate her and even said she has the patience of a teacher.

[lastliberalintexas]

41. I agree to an extent

I think it can help him learn patience, which he definitely needs to do. But when he's working 2 and 3 grade levels ahead before school starts and just gets to play teacher's aide all year, we have a problem.

And my problem is not where he's at, it's that what he is doing is not expected of the other children. My son is bright, but it isn't as though he's profoundly gifted, a la Einstein. So why is he that far ahead of the school's requirements? Children will rise to meet the expectations we set for them, and they will also stagnate at whatever lower level we allow. I am not speaking of children with learning disabilities or developmental problems, by the way. Just "normal", everyday children who could be doing so much more academically than what we ask of them.

[seabeyond]

45. i am in texas schools. what grade is your son in. my kids are in the advanced

classes. doing way beyond what we did three decades ago.

where is your problem with your son

[lastliberalintexas]

98. He's too young for advanced classes

Maybe at some point that will help with some of the behavioral issues we are starting to see.

I guess I'm just really amazed at how little our society as a whole pushes kids to excell academically. My parents always expected a great deal of us, so it's a shock to see what's acceptable to some. I don't think we should go to the extremes of some other cultures, but a little more nudging from adults would make a big difference. :)

[seabeyond]

101. oldest always had HIGH expectation from teachers and demands. youngest always coddled

dont know why two kids treated so differently (well i have a clue) but they were. i told all the teachers 6th grade, this year.... dont coddle. demand. and i follow up on it. has been working well.

over a decade i have watched teachers and adm demand. and i have watched them not be supported by parents. every year, every teacher i address sons particular weaknesses and we address them. they know i will ALWAYS back and support the teachers for the best of the child and i have never been disappointed.

i also see a great numbers of homes not putting the demand on the kids and teachers are helpless. just reality.

as far as the tests... i put kids in private from prek to 4th because fearful of the teach to the test.

now kids have been in public from 4th to freshman and what i have learned is teaching to the test is teaching. there are a lot of issues with the nclb but i dont think it is learning the basics. i think those have helped to focus on demanding the kids learn writing, reading comprehension and math. they insist the kids know these things before they advance. and all the other stuff with nclb is failure and the problem.

the education is there. it is there if a family is willing to take the opportunities offered. it is there beyond what we learned in the past. that is just the reality.

[liberal_at_heart]

28. I definitely agree with that

I think alot of parents are either too busy or too tired to really push their students. It takes alot of energy to make sure they are doing their work. They will get away with not doing their work if they can. My husband and I would have daily arguments with our daughter and would ground her quite regularly when she did not do her work. It was a struggle and it was exhausting. Finally, last year she finally got it. If she wanted to go to college and have a career she would need to set goals for herslef and want good grades for herself. She would have to have the drive and the desire to do it for herself. The lightbulb finally went on and now she does about two to three hours of homework everyday. I am now confident that she has what it takes to go to college.

[seabeyond]

46. my freshman gets it. my 6th grader, we are still pushing. yes. nt

[SoCalDem]

74. Small children need to learn structure, before they can learn

If they go from school to a sitter's place..where the sitter has too many kids to watch, to also be a tutor, and then Mom picks them up at 6 PM, races home to fix dinner, etc, how much time will those kids actually get? Mom time..Dad time?

If there is a sibling or two, there's usually a lot of chaos and vying for individual time from Mom /Dad at the worst possible time of their day.. Kids get "sent to their rooms" to do homework or have to interrupt dinner prep to get some help..and then it's dinner & baths & bedtime..

and just possibly, some of the older ones , having been told that school is their ticket to adulthood, may just see their parents' lives as not all that appealing..so why study..if THAT is what it gets you:eyes:

Kids lack structure in their lives and many (most?) lack one-on-one time with Mom & Dad..

Chaos is not a good learning environment.

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. And don't forget the video games

Almost every kid I teach who fails to do homework is a video game fanatic. When Mom and Dad send him to his room to do his homework he has a toy palace available with video games that are much more interesting than homework.

Whatever happened to kids doing their homework while Mom is nearby? When I have a parent tell me she can't make Junior do his homework I ask well do you sit with him while he is working? Answer is always no I send him to his room to do it.

[SoCalDem]

144. We were lucky.. our boys only had Atari & then NES..so I just "borrowed" the connection cord

and when the homework was done, they could play.. Later when Gameboy came out, I kept control of the games..

Parents these days, have a more difficult time.. I am so glad mine are all grown up..

[sandnsea]

40. "make sure they are in the AP courses"

While I support AP courses for advanced students, they shouldn't replace a college track education and that's what they've done.

[liberal_at_heart]

44. We decided against an AP class for our daughter and I am so glad we did

My duaghter had the chance to test out of 9th grade science and advance to 10th grade science. Well turns out they are introducing physics in the 9th grade science class which my daughter has never seen before. She is getting it but she has had to stay after school a few times to get some tutoring from her teacher. I think she would have struggled alot more had she taken the AP class.

[seabeyond]

48. yes. it is what has happened for many different reasons. so make sure kids are in AP

we can talk about why the regular courses arent going to cut it and i am going to put most of the onus on parents and kids. bottom line. you want the kid to get the education, then make sure they start the AP courses young and go all the way thru high school in those courses.

[pscot]

42. Dead on. Kids are easily distracted

and there are many more distractions today than 40 years ago. You can't just shove them out the door and hope the schools will do the rest. You have to meet the teachers, look over the curriculum materials, make sure the homework is getting done and turned in. Go through the kids backpack every day to make sure you're seeing the handouts and announements the teacher is putting out. When the kids see you taking a real interest, the message comes through loud and clear. If you want the kids to care, you have to show them that you care. Edited to add: phonics sucks.

[seabeyond]

49. yup. that is what i have seen. and not with just my kids. being a part fo the school

volunterring and working with teachers, adm and knowing parents (and i am an anti social person), i see the kids that are pushed and the ones that arent. the difference it makes. and so many more kids have the capabilities, they just dont utilize them.

[bertman]

29. I'm glad you brought this up, lastliberalintexas. Today on another thread I asked why

so many of our kids graduate from high school unable to put together a coherent and grammatically-correct sentence. No answer yet.

A pet peeve that I have is allowing students to use hand calculators to do simple math. I have seen young adults who could not even make the correct change without benefit of the cash register.

My original post was prompted by my son-in-law, a college football coach, commenting on how poorly educated many of his players are. When I asked what he thought the reason was, he said that when he goes to the high schools to recruit kids, it's like the inmates are running the asylum. Knowing that many of his players are poor kids from the inner city I asked him if it was because they were in inner-city schools. He said, many but not all, were inner-city schools.

Why is this happening? If all parents feel the frustration that you and others feel, it's no wonder that there's a movement to privatize our schools--even if that's the wrong approach.

This did not happen overnight. I was in high school in the 60's and got a very good education despite my mental block against math.

Recommend.

[seabeyond]

76. your post talking about the issue isnt the academics

it is about the behavior. that doesnt allow for the academics. that interfers with the academics.

who is responsible for this lack of discipline from the kids? schools? or the kids themselves and the parents that raise them

i am watching schools, and now high school be as creative, flexible and insightful as they can to demand kids get their education. and i watch kids just not care. parents frustrated they cant MAKE their kids go to school, do the work.

to blame the schools is to simplistic adn not the problem

they want privatization desperate to find SOMEONE able to do their job

[bertman]

133. "they want privatization desperate to find SOMEONE able to do their job". I think you

have hit the nail on the head, seabeyond. I'm sure there are many reasons, but a lot of it revolves around parents giving kids what they want even if the kids don't do what the parents tell them to do. Reinforcing bad behaviors only makes the problem worse.

The other part that I have heard about second hand from a very good friend and also from my wife, both of whom were teacher's aides, is that the school administrators are scared to death to punish kids who are disruptive because parents threaten lawsuits and go to state and federal agencies complaining of discrimination against their little Mary or Johnny. Both of these women said they were sometimes worried about their personal safety and this was in middle schools.

Very sad state of affairs.

[seabeyond]

135. private, low income public, high income public. teachers were desperate for parental cooperation

participation, backing the teacher. that was the first thing i noticed. i would connect with teacher and talk about sons issues and they were surprised.... that i took the no excuse, high expectation, back the teacher attitude.

both boys in advanced math, both boys struggle adn i still want them in the class. all three schools offered tutoring. every teach was timid asking boys to do after school tutoring. i was always enthusied adn welcomed after school tutoring. i literally had teacher apologize. i would ask why? it is a good thing being offered to boys. they told me many parents refuse the after school tutoring adn when teacher insist, parent is pissed.

what is that?

[bertman]

137. You were the exception. If there were more parents like you who took an active interest

in their kids' schooling, things would be very different.

So many parents are consumed with their jobs/careers, trying to juggle kids' academics with sports, extra-curricular stuff, church, social goings-on that they can't focus on the schooling. Or, DON'T focus on the schooling--assuming that the schools are taking care of that.

[seabeyond]

139. this is what is so frustrating. my kids group with the other kids that have these expectations

so i see the parents doing it, and i see the kids succeeding. the parents that gripe about the school system, are the parents expecting the schools to do their job

i see the school working harder and harder to address this issue. and i see that regardless of what they implement they will not be successful. they cannot be successful without the parents support. no matter how creative they become, no matter how hard they try.

we are addressing the worng issues, and blasting the schools for it.

[Qanisqineq]

34. I began taking college classes online recently

I already have a BS and an MS. I am living in Korea and have no job (my husband works on the army base), so I decided to take college class online to pursue other interests I have and to give me something to do. All communication is in writing between the students and the instructor. I've taken three courses so far and the writing is atrocious. I admit my grammar isn't always the best, especially on message boards or in emails, but most of this stuff is beyond bad. Spelling? Ha! Apparently they don't know what the little red wavy lines mean -- the class has spellchecker! I don't think people proofread at all. My current class is Creative Writing and some of the writing is unintelligible.

Now, I do want to defend some checkers who can't count change back. I worked fast food back when I was in college and I have always been quite timid. When I was helping someone that I found particularly intimidating, I could not count change back to save my life. Or if I was in a huge rush, I couldn't do it. And I wasn't dumb by any stretch, just certain situations made me freeze.

[The Straight Story]

47. Homeschool

Take control of education, because our education system has become a joke in many ways.

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. Because parents with no training in instruction will do a far better job

:sarcasm:

[JackDragna]

50. I'm a teacher..

..and I can tell you, I put the wood to the kids.

[Golden Raisin]

55. Corporatism requires

an under-educated, disinterested, docile "electorate". Since World War II Education in the U.S.A. has been steadily and seriously declining with each succeeding generation. We have unlimited, endless funding for new, hyper-expensive stealth fighters, tanks and carriers plus non-stop wars around the globe, but Education at home is scandalously (and I believe deliberately) neglected and a low priority.

[salguine]

190. Exactly. A stupid people are a complacent, malleable people.

[obxhead]

59. An educated person

with the ability to think critically is a danger to the powers that be.

[Joe the Liberal]

62. It should come as no surprise.....

the US is behind on virtually everything except for things that involve war, we got all the money in the world for war.

[earth mom]

63. Students should be required to read more.

Teachers and librarians are always surprised at how much my kid likes to read.

My reply has always been "Doesn't every kid?" :wow:

[dysfunctional press]

65. "Why is it that the French can have a top notch educational system...?"

a top-notch medical system...?
a top-notch rail transportation system...?
a top-notch energy system...?

the answer:
guillotines.

[Juche]

66. What is with the idealization of the past?

Due to the Flynn effect, fluid IQ back in the 1940s was likely 20-30 points lower than it is today. Someone with a gifted or near genius level IQ back in the 1940s would qualify as slightly above average (at best) in 2009. The top 10% of IQs in 1920 equates to the bottom 33% in 1990 due to the Flynn effect. People are smarter today than they were in the past.

http://www.indiana.edu/~intell/flynneffect.shtml

Not only that, but in the 1930 barely 25% of adults had a high school diploma.

I think you guys are just assuming that previous generations had a better work ethic and more talent. I see no reason to believe that. People in the past had lower IQs and less education. I see no reason to idealize the past.

On another note, it is only high school when we start lagging behind. Eighth graders tend to do the same or better than students in foreign countries. Except the east Asian countries. But when you look at how they ride their kids in East Asia (China, South Korea, Japan) it becomes apparent why those children are so good at taking tests. I do not see why we should import that culture here.

http://www.air.org/news/pr/8thGrader.aspx

Plus, why does it matter? Having an adult electorate and workforce trained in issues like critical thinking, rhetoric, introspection, civics, basic science and technology etc. is important. Being able to beat the Danish in a 7th grade spelling contest is not.

We have severe problems in our country IMO (problems which I assume many cultures have). A worship of celebrity culture, a lack of critical thinking, obsession with materialism, ignorance of foreign cultures, ignorance about basic facts of civics and government. Basically we have a lot of problems with a culture obsessed with triviality and fluff and very little knowledge, understanding or concern for more important issues. If you ask people their opinion on taxes, you get an emotion laden diatribe. But how many people understand how big the budget it, what % of their income goes to taxes, what tax money is spent on, etc? The answer is very few. People have strong, easy to manipulate opinions on stuff they barely understand, and they obsess over trivial celebrity gossip. However, I see no reason to think that beating the Germans and Irish in a 5th grade math exam will fix any of that.

People will say/assume formal education will fix the problem. But I doubt it. I think reforming the media would help dramatically myself. Right now their motive is to create fluff stories designed to play on people's emotions.

I really don't know how to fix those problems.

[JCMach1]

70. Best post in this thread... Check literacy rates between 1918-1960 and discuss!

Also, check percentage of overall population attending post-secondary school...

Education has continuously been opening-up to new populations.

Many of those populations have been under-served by education (mainly by the lingering side-effects of racism).

[lastliberalintexas]

75. I'm not talking about test scores

I am talking about the actual curriculum of my son's school, not testing. I'd prefer all testing be eliminated or severely restricted. Also, I understand that on some level we can't compare our schools to the rest of the industrialized world because of the universal aspect of our system vs. the tracking they do.

What bothers me is how incredibly low the standards are for these children. As I posted above, most children will either rise or stagnate to the level required of them, so why not raise the bar for these little sponges? Do that when they are young, foster that love of learning in our system rather than TEST! TEST! TEST! and then just maybe we wouldn't start losing them in middle school. Of course, at that point we also need to do something about the distraction of sports in schools, and I personally can't see anything improving in that regard.


Personally, I think many of the issues in our country go back to our lack of critical thought, which is another reason this is so troubling to me.

[seabeyond]

82. have you sat in your kids class. i take it he is young. are teachers really not approaching

like they are sponges? kids in lower grades, had excellent teachers with enthusiasm with all kinds of approaches.

my son is slim, glasses, academic. he started cross country for first time as he waled into a huge and socially diverse high school. running with team a month before starting the school. BECAUSE of the sport, it opened his world in comfort and ease walking into this high school. it did so much for his confidence and alleviating the fear. it was an excellent choice of his to do a sport. not to mention the health factor of exercise.

but most importantly with your post... critical thinking. isn't that what we teach our children at home? isn't that really our job? if our child lacks the ability for critical thinking, who does it reflect on?

the schools that i have seen are open to kids asking questions, but... encouraging 20 kids to continue ask, they will be asking all day and being taught nothing. the teacher has to control to teach lesson plan. there can be only so much. my youngest always has hand up and i have had to tell him, knock it off. deprives all kids of teacher time to teach

critical thinking comes from home. and is encouraged in school, but taught at home.

[seabeyond]

77. i listen to the threads saying how bad our schools are. i watch my kids doing course 2, 3 yrs ahead

of my day. i see the diversity in the course they take we were never offered. i see they have a more challenging cirriculum than we did. it is hard for me to believe that people so readily point finger at schools, when the reality is in what we as parents are doing or not doing with our kids and blaming the schools. it makes no sense to me

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. +1

[raccoon]

107. Great post. nt

[JCMach1]

67. Ha! I would kill to get my kids back into American schools

no offence to our cousins across the pond, but I will give you two words that bring sighs, eye-rolling and disgust on the part of the parents and kids in my house:

BRITISH CURRICULUM

[liberal_at_heart]

148. You have me curious now

My husband and I want to move to the UK because of the healthcare. I haven't heard alot about the education in England. If you don't mind me asking what about the education in England are you not happy with?

[JCMach1]

149. In the elementary years, the standard curriculum is relatively dumbed-down

compared to the U.S. There is emphasis on memorization over critical thinking. History and social studies are extremely Anglo-centric... much more so than American schools.

My advice to many Americans before complaining too hard about schools at home is to try education outside the U.S. before you pass judgment. It's a jungle out there.

[liberal_at_heart]

166. Thanks for the outside perspective

I think we Americans are just frustrated to see how far behind we are becoming in competiveness. Our capatilist society is growing stronger and doesn't want to spend any money on any social programs. Our infrastructure, our public transportation, our healthcare, our education. Our capatilist society doesn't want to spend money to upgrade any of our social programs. We are falling behind many other countries including yours and it is frustrating.

[seabeyond]

168. oversea jobs, the top getting zillions x's more than their lower wage worker

and this is what you have

lack of living wage

[liberal_at_heart]

170. Yes wages are another big problem we have here

[DailyGrind51]

73. You would be amazed at the number of parents who never question why their kids

never seem to have homework or bother to check assignment notebooks for written assignments or teachers' notes. Only a small percentage of parents ever show up for conferences. You can lead a student to knowledge, but you can't make him/her learn!

[seabeyond]

88. exactly. and the excuses and blaming schools and teachers just give kids one more out

my son actually had a bad 7th grade math teacher. i didnt like her anymore than he did. her snarky attitude made it challenging for son to learn. i totally empathized. YET i told son, doesnt matter. still HIS place to find a way to learn and pass the class. no excuses and certainly NO failing.

onus has to be placed on student. and excuses or blame cannot be used so kids fail

when kid is employeed he just might have a bad employer. so what. still his to figure out how to get along.

[DailyGrind51]

132. Too often, school administrators have become nothing more than politicians,

fearful of that one phone call or letter to the superintendent about an "unfair" grade or an "unreasonable" disciplinary measure, putting teachers in the position of achieving NCLB objectives with apathetic students, uninvolved parents, and un-supportive administrations.

[proud2BlibKansan]

78. Well first you have to accept the meme that our kids are lagging behind other countries

And I see you have.

Then you need to ignore the responsibility of parents. I see you can at least complain but aren't sharing details about your child. Interesting.

The only meme you missed is merit pay and charter schools as the solution to these 'problems'. Other than that, nice job. :sarcasm:

[lastliberalintexas]

93. I didn't share details about my child for a few reasons

First, I didn't want this to just be about him or his situation, more a discussion of our system. Second, I also don't want to sound as though I am bragging or expect the school system to meet every need of his (I don't expect every 5 year old to be doing 6 digit, multiple row addition/subtraction, multiplication and division, for instance). I don't ignore the responsibility of parents, as that is one huge reason the schools are teaching to the standards they are, lack of parental involvement or care. It is why I attend parent teacher conferences, volunteer at my son's school, read to him, visit museums with him, play soccer and baseball with him even though I can't swing a bat to save my life (tennis player here, and the swings are way too different for my little brain to reconcile!), teach him manners and that how he treats others is how he will be judged, etc. However, in my part of the country, who cares if Hunter or Colt can read, so long as they can play football life is good.

You are barking up the wrong tree in thinking that I am at all critical of the vast majority of teachers. As I posted, I have several in my family and I have seen first hand how tough that profession is. As I have also posted upthread, I know that most people are not fit to teach and I would love to see testing eliminated entirely. Arne Duncan is probably even more of a reason for me to be disappointed in Obama than the insurance boondoggle of healthcare reform that we are facing.


But I do have to ask this- do you honestly believe that our students are living up to their potential? Do you honestly think that we expect enough of them? Do you honestly think that we can't improve our current system so that we can produce better thinkers rather than employees? If so, then we will just have to agree to disagree. Otherwise, I hope you will re-read my post and see that I in no way attacked teachers (or even many administrators!).

[proud2BlibKansan]

96. I believe schools reflect the expectations of the community they serve

As a culture, we have lowered expectations of our children. Our schools are not only relatively blameless but also unable to solve the problem.

We are raising a second generation of video game kids who see little value in reading or critical thinking. Until our culture changes its values this pattern will continue.

I also don't buy the argument that our kids are not as well educated as kids in foreign countries since we are preparing our kids for our culture, not those of a foreign country. Also statistically, it is invalid to compare our achievement test results. That is the elephant in the room that so many ignore.

I can report first hand that our expectations in the urban district where I have spent my teaching career are MUCH higher all the time. Recently I had a class of 8th graders write letters to our state rep and I was amazed by how well they wrote. I shared the letters with several friends who are not teachers and they were also amazed by them. The state rep is planning on sharing them with other legislators, especially those who love to bash our urban school district. I can also report that I see elementary students working with algebra almost every day and solving math problems I never saw until I got to high school. Yet our kids still move on to high school and drop out and so few go on to college. We lose them to the streets. Tough to compete with that.

[lastliberalintexas]

110. I agree with you that video games are a problem

I can't tell you how many people I know who have spent thousands of dollars on game systems and individual games who are then amazed at how much time their children play or how little they read. Seriously? And if I hear "So s/he won't be bored in the car" as an excuse to buy some electronic gadget one more time, I just might explode. Whatever happened to coloring books, reading books, mazes, puzzles and the like? Or- gasp!- actually interacting with your child while in the car? My son and I play a game where we see who can spot the most out of state license plates (but you have to know the state capital to claim the plate), or we play I Spy, or just sing silly songs. Who knew I should buy him a DS so that I could be free of him in the car?


And I also understand that socioeconomic issues can have a drastic impact on the paths these children take. I graduated from a school which was mostly poor and minority, and far too many of those kids didn't have the same oppportunities I did (regardless of what Limbaugh and his ilk say about us being an equal opportunity nation). I certainly don't have the answers, but I am worried.

[seabeyond]

111. so your son is young. and he is having a particularly shaky, rough time in an area

but you do EVERYTHING, from the sounds of it, that will benefit your son. and you are on it. that is what works. whether he has a good teacher or not. whether he has the demands or not. have faith with you backing him, he will excel.

talking to kids in car, having books in car, puzzles ect...

we have all that stuff. we do all that stuff. my freshman i pick up, he talks, i listen from time he gets in car to driveway then we sit. and i let him talk until he is done. we have sat there for half an hour, until he is done

those are the things that will be huge for your kid. all the other stuff is there for the taking in the schools.

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. What drives me nuts about video games

is that they are largely not the least bit educational. Why can't the game makers squeeze in a few math problems? We have software at school that does that. Video games that make the kids solve a few problems before they get to the game. The kids LOVE it. And I have taught more than one kid to learn math facts with this software. Plus you don't even have to buy the software anymore; there are lots of internet sites you don't even have to register for that teach critical thinking and problem solving. Here are two of my favorites:

http://schooltimegames.com/

http://www.starfall.com/

Starfall is absolutely wonderful for kids learning to read. Schooltime Games has some wonderful Math and Social Studies activities.

[goldcanyonaz]

85. I don't blame the teachers, I blame parents.

How many parents actually make their children study?

Many children I know are weaned on television, video games and other "fun" activities.

Many adults my age (32) had a strict schedule growing up that didn't afford them much television time. They were allowed to play a bit after school then it was right to homework. After dinner they were allowed to watch a little television and then were off to bed at a respectable hour.

[seabeyond]

89. right on. we even throw in book time at end of night. half hour reading. since babies....

and i have one freshman.

[lastliberalintexas]

95. I didn't blame the teachers

Teachers in my part of the world no longer get to create their own individualized curriculum, for the most part. They might be able to tweak it a bit, but everything is apparently geared towards testing, and that is not the fault of the teachers. :shrug:

[wickerwoman]

188. Yep. Twenty years of pushing for McTeachers

and trying to shove the "corporate model" on education and then we blame the teachers when we don't like the "product".

[graywarrior]

87. I'm sort of amazed at the grammatical and typographical errors that appear in college

text books. It astounds me. Who proofreads and edits this stuff?

[proud2BlibKansan]

99. I knew we had lost this battle when I started seeing so many errors in the MSM

It's now common to see grammatical and spelling errors on the evening news every night.

But yes, I am seeing errors in elementary school textbooks as well.

[graywarrior]

102. It's the new fad!

Keeping up with the teabaggers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

141. From DU's home page:

Scientists discovery antibody that kills prostate cancer

Yes it's just a headline from another site. But sheesh how hard does proofreading have to be? LOL

[seabeyond]

142. "proifreading". i dont know. you tell me. bah hahahha

teasing with ya... truly and absolutely

teasing

[proud2BlibKansan]

143. LOL!

That's what I get for posting on my phone.

[madmom]

97. When my daughter was in 5th grade, they had their usual what I read over the

summer class. She was literally called a liar by the teacher when she told her that she read such things as Moby Dick, Tale of Two Cities,and several other classics. My daughter was quite upset by this and came home almost in tears first by being called a liar in front of everyone, then by being deemed don't smart enough to read/understand these books. I went to school the next day with copies of about 10-12 of theses classics written for young readers, so they COULD read them and understand them. The teacher was not very gracious, to say the least. AND my daughter is still an avid reader into her 20s

[seabeyond]

106. my oldest son tested way ahead of age. both boys very fast readers

i even wondered about comprehension. and oldest was always questioned at beginning of year if he truly read or comprehended what he read. and yes, son was offended. and inevitably, thru the year and tests, teacher would realize that kid truly did read at that amazing speed. i am an obsessive reader, and read much slower than both boys.

but

teachers would recognize. i didnt blame the teachers casue it was so abnormal what boys do with reading. youngest has much easier cause oldest has gone thru the school, and they recognize. both boys on every reading test have the nations top scores. so not so hard for youngest

it is hard as a parent, but an opportunity for student to both gain recognition and confidence adn understand others reality and accepting that why a teacher has a tough time with this

my odlest was reading adult books at 8. gave him black like me and other books, teachers wouldnt believe he read.

cooodooos to your daughter.

[raccoon]

103. Could you please be more specific about what it is you don't like about our schools?

Specifically, in what areas do you think schools expect so little of students?

[Obamanaut]

108. I read here on DU that even handwriting is almost a thing of the past,

and some teachers don't see a need to teach it, but would rather have students learn 'keyboarding.'

[proud2BlibKansan]

120. I am one of those teachers

Kids don't need to know how to write in cursive. It was originally taught to give them a method for recording notes quickly. But they keyboard now. So cursive handwriting, other than teaching them how to sign their name, is an outdated skill.

It was also one of the more difficult subjects to teach. Kids either got it or they didn't. I think it's like being able to sketch. I couldn't draw to save my life. Thank goodness I wasn't graded on that as a child.

[seabeyond]

124. my son has poor motor skill, especially fine motor skill. the horrors for him

with writing and cursive. teacher gave up on teh cursive. 6th grade and bad. he has other issues, so nuerological problem but.....

many of the papers with creative writing i insists, and school willing, for him to keyboard. so he can get the ideas on paper. very creative, but writing so challenging, he wouldnt be able to get all down. takes so long to write. this way, he gets creative out, and clear to read

6th grade. not something he is going to get better at. so computer is godsend for him

[lightningandsnow]

156. I have the same problem.

My fine motor coordination is below 1st percentile.

I was born with it and it's not something that's going to get better.

The handwriting scolds piss me off.

[seabeyond]

161. really. look at you

thanks for sharing. i have never heard or seen a child with this problem. it is tied into so many other areas too, this is just one of the effects along with many others. tics, speech issue younger, swallowing younger (he still has to cut up meat small) and other issues that he is growing out of, or just so use to not effecting much

we tested in a number of ways for a couple years and could find nothing helpful so became a part of who he is and just accept it.

[Obamanaut]

128. As the character in 'Roadhouse' said, "Opinions vary." Not all kids

have keyboards of any sort available to them at all times of the day/night. There are some computers at public libraries and schools. Not all kids have computers in the home upon which to do their reports, jot down notes from various reference books, etc.

It is easier to teach them that their index fingers are placed on the 'f' and 'j' keys and the space bar is pressed with the thumb.

[proud2BlibKansan]

131. No home computer access is indeed a problem

But not at school. One of the better things Clinton did as president was get every school in the country hooked up to the internet and grants are available for schools to buy computers. I am in a very poor district but all of our schools have computers.

I also think in 10 years computers will be everywhere and a home without a computer will be as common as a home without a TV today.

[LWolf]

158. Actually,

that thread was about cursive writing...not about writing by hand.

I'm a teacher who replied on that thread. Are you referring to me when you say "some teachers?"

Why not be specific, and address the DUers you are talking about directly?

[Obamanaut]

181. Actually,

that thread was about handwriting

But to pick a nit, many dictionaries consider cursive to be handwriting, where the letters in each word are joined together in a flowing manner

cur·sive Having the successive letters joined together http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cursive

Would this not include many of the styles of handwriting - Spencer, Palmer, et al?



Here is the thread title “Handwriting Is History”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7326734


<snip>“…A 2007 U.S. Department of Education study found that 90 percent of teachers spend 10 minutes a day on handwriting. Zaner-Bloser, the most popular handwriting curriculum used today, deems that too little and is encouraging schools to up that amount to at least 15 minutes a day…”
<more at link>http://www.miller-mccune.com/culture_society/handwriting-is-history-1647?article_page=2

[LWolf]

185. I know where the thread is.

You didn't answer my question.

[Obamanaut]

186. OK, try this

"I read here on DU that even handwriting is almost a thing of the past, and some teachers don't see a need to teach it, but would rather have students learn 'keyboarding.'"

I'll rewrite the post, using different punctuation.

1. I read here on DU that even handwriting is almost a thing of the past.

2. Some teachers don't see a need to teach it.

3. They would rather have students learn 'keyboarding.'

Now, I did read, right here, what is stated in the first (#1) sentence. I read the article and the thread right here on DU.

From the article linked in the OP one can infer that some teachers no longer see the need for handwriting (or script, or cursive if you prefer) and it is becoming obsolete. One or more teachers posted in the thread a similar sentiment.

Using the inference in the linked article, and the responses in the thread, 'some' is correct, inasmuch as 'some' combines the inferences from that article and the thread responses.

I generally don't look at the screen name of the poster for any individual response, but if I failed to give your ego the proper stroke I apologize.

All better now?

[LWolf]

187. I think I was able to

pull the following out of your response, if I pass over the inferred insult:

1. We expect little of our students. (This OP.)

2. TEACHERS DON'T THINK WE OUGHT TO TEACH CURSIVE WRITING (Inference from the other thread.)

3. Not expecting them to learn cursive writing is expecting "little" of them.

Have I got that correct?

Would you now like to address these inconvenient truths?

1. The institution of high-stakes testing as a way to threaten and control the system from the top down has narrowed the focus of districts and schools to passing tests and attaining test scores that will hopefully keep the wolves from the door.

2. Teachers didn't choose that narrowing, or that focus. It is imposed from the federal government, the state government, the district, and then the school administrator. Trickle down theory at it's best.

3. Cursive writing is not tested.

4. Cursive writing is not as critical a skill, or critical knowledge, relative to many things which are receiving less focus because of the almighty crusade for standardized test scores: art, music, pe, social studies, science...

5. In another generation, very few communications will depend on writing by hand, regardless of what form that "handwriting" takes.

My responses on that thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7326734#7327058

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7326734#7332727

So I'll ask again....

"Are you referring to me when you say 'some teachers?'

Why not be specific, and address the DUers you are talking about directly?"

[Obamanaut]

189. Geez. "Some teachers" refers to the teachers in the thread who don't

like to (or don't want to) teach handwriting PLUS the ones inferred from reading the linked article.

In that thread "some teachers" included more than yourself.

NOW is it all better?

[LWolf]

193. It's all better

when you direct criticism directly towards the DUers you intend it for, instead of a generalized attack on "some teachers."

Even better when attacking teachers is not an automatic reaction to any conversation about education.

[seabeyond]

109. you are in texas. do you realize now your kids are going to have 4X4

that means they now need

4 yrs science
4 yrs english
4 yrs math
4 yrs history

that is so far beyond what we needed to graduate.

how do you think that will effect kids drop out rate?

expectation and demand has risen even more

what more do you want from the schools?

[uponit7771]

152. When it comes to critiques about education in America few are objective and a lot

...leave out the underlying reasons on purpose

[seabeyond]

162. so true. and so

frustrating.

[izzybeans]

115. in my child's school its not the standards. They are far greater than when i was in school.

It's the narrow frame of reference, that is the problem. In high school, he will not learn complex philosophy nor be forced to read original material (outside of a lit class), which is just one example. The study of history will be the study of "heroes" and little else. That's what troubles me.

In elementary school now, the expectations on him far exceed what I had to endure as a young child. He's exhausted everyday when he gets home.

In graduate school, I had a roommate from Russia. English was his 5th language and he had a solid grasp of "Continental Philosophy" before he got to college (which he completed in 3 years). He had a masters degree by 21 and on to the PhD when I met him at 22 (completed at 28). He was far better prepared than us American students when it came to critically reading social philosophy. He once told me it was expected that you read original material until you got it. No questions. No excuses. Otherwise you were out. Even in college we read dumb-downed textbooks that barely represent the disciplines they were intended to. When I taught college I viewed my job as teaching my students how to read in the discipline, because they were incapable of doing so when they walked in the classroom.

Our educational system, unlike his (and perhaps places like France) is based on populist premises. No one can be told you are "finished" or you are a "mere laborer" (unless they choose that route for themselves) until college. The class system in these countries are even more rigid than ours for a reason, they write out lower-class children from the system up front and track them into the laboring professions earlier. In ours, with the exception of a handful of honors courses that require some merit, you opt in or out of these tracks. "Take metal shop dude, the teacher will let you chew tobacco." - a common phrase at my high school. There are huge pressures to close the "achievement gap", which is determined by socioeconomic differences more than anything that happens in the classroom (which is still very important). That pressure is populist in that it is intended to "level the playing field" for working class children in our efforts to get them into college. Not all countries have this same (however poor) attempt at "leveling" class distinctions through the education system as we. We just blame the teachers for the inequalities in our class system (of which the "achievement gap" is an emblem) and then treat the parents as failures for not being upwardly mobile. Teachers and parents are pitted against each other in unproductive ways, despite the fact that the mission is noble to begin with.

[LWolf]

129. It has a great deal to do

with the values of the majority of the population. Also, there is an incredible resistance from parents to anything that isn't "the way we learned it," or "what we learned."

"Back to basics" is code for drill, rote, low-level, non-thinking, passive learning.

Our education system has been vilified for decades now, and with every generation, more parents resist anything more than "basics."

As a matter of fact, anything that smacks of inquiry or thinking is protested; nobody wants their children questioning their families' values, or their faiths' teachings.

Not that public schools question those things. But...teach students to be independent thinkers, to be inquirers, and it naturally follows. If the values, and the teachings of the faith, stand up well under scrutiny, then they have nothing to worry about. Not that that little fact makes any difference.

[JNelson6563]

153. I guess we are lucky here.

Though our school district gets the lowest amount of funding per student allowed by state law, and a lot more goes to transporting the students of our very far flung district than most, somehow our teachers manage to do a good job. My daughter was able to take advantage of the superb musical program and is still involved with her violin, soon to join another symphony. My son, the other side of the brain guy, is in advanced placement chemistry, statistics, 4th yr. French, etc.

I really think it's the quality of teachers here. We've had a few really bad ones who have no business teaching children but, for the most part, we are fortunate.

Julie

[seabeyond]

163. isnt it amazing

that you and i are so very lucky that in your corner of the world and my corner of the world has consistently provided good teachers for our children as the rest of the nation suffers.

(so lucky, it doesnt make sense)

[and-justice-for-all]

160. And here in Indiana the fuckwad Governer, (R) of course, just cut Education

funding by $297 million!!!

I sent him one hell of an email.

[LiberalAndProud]

169. I remember both phonics and Dick and Jane in first grade (1963).

I was so anxious to learn to read, any vehicle was bound to get me there. I have a vivid recollection of reading aloud from the Dick and Jane books with the entire class ...

See ... Dick ... See ... Dick ... run. OMG! I was moving my head in rhythm to the p a i n f u l l y s l o w pace and got scolded for it. But was always an avid reader until I required reading glasses. The glasses somehow detract from the pleasure of the experience.

[TransitJohn]

171. If we hold them up to realistic standards, evidently,

our children's precious feelings might get hurt. Everyone must be a winner in our system.

[seabeyond]

176. oh god. this sounds so right wing. and living in that community i gotta tell ya

tis the rw'ers that say this crap make the most excuses for their kids. and coddle.... yada yada yada

[TransitJohn]

182. Yeah, it might not be evident, but that was supposed to have one of these:

:sarcasm:

[seabeyond]

183. bah hahaha. lol. oh.

the thing is

i hear that SOOO often.

thanks for clarification

[change_notfinetuning]

172. When the adults lower the bar for themselves, it's gonna go down for the

kids, too.

[LWolf]

173. I have to ask:

Who is "we?"

[Fire1]

178. AND it's going to get WORSE!! n/t

[happy_liberal]

192. With the advancements in technology we should be moving forward not backward

Elmo can teach children to read and do math at age 3. We have easier access to information, access to up to date information(rather than 10 year old textbooks)...technology should be a boost to education, we should have advanced beyond what they were able to learn in the 1800s. Look at a test from the 1800s, very few high school students could pass one now.

I think George Carlin best explained why we are going this direction...